I enjoyed Desmond Ford's comments on Lesson 10 of the Bible Study Guide, “Atonement at the Cross,” which challenges the error of moral influence theory being taught in the church. I especially appreciated his praise for the leaders responsible for such an amazing display of courage but was taken aback by his somewhat comical confession of cowardice. "Those church leaders responsible for this calamitous deviation I do not expect to see in the Kingdom of God. They will be too near the throne." I certainly agree with Ford's use of the word "calamitous" and truly believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church will go through the prophesied shaking because of Graham Maxwell's pan-Gnostic version of m.i.th.

Shubee

The story is told that one evening an old indian chief told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said "My son, the battle is between two wolves. One is Evil, it is anger,envy,sorrow,regret,greed,arrogance,self pity,guilt,resentment,inferiority,lies,false pride,superiority and ego.

The other wolf is good, It is joy,peace, love, hope,serinity, humility,kindness,empathy,generosity,truth,compass ion and faith."

The grandson thought about this for a minute and then asked,"Grandpa which wolf wins?" The old chief simply replied, "The one you feed."

Tom

I like that story Tom. I also see value in the parable of the two debtors.

Two men were equally in debt to a certain moneylender. The sums owed were enormous. Now the moneylender was not very well respected in his town and the two debtors were completely broke. Because of the moneylender’s great love, he canceled the debts of both. The first man was elated with the news. He was very thankful for the generous gift and understood that his large debt was paid in his behalf — at great personal sacrifice to the moneylender. Now the second man was just as joyous as the first, but not because his debt was canceled. His joy was over an explanation. He was enraptured by a theory. He thought the moneylender cancels debts because money is offensive to him: that he hates legal tender.

Wishing his benevolent gesture would be appreciated, the moneylender tried to explain: “You are a debtor given a gift and money is a really nice thing to have. This world can’t run without it since some people owe more than others; it’s just a good way to keep track of things.” “That’s nonsense” the man replied. “What kind of a moneylender would demand payment?” At this the moneylender was speechless and went away sorrowful for the man could not be reasoned with. “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor 1:18). “The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God” (1 Cor 3:19).

Shubee

Great parable please give reference. Not linked necessarily with Paul's letter to the Church in Corinth. Seems like a very personal paraphrase. The true parable seems to make the point that the one forgiven much loved much! Seems mighty close to Moral Influence to me. Tom

Tom,

The reference is The Denial of Justice And The Man of Lawlessness, Part 2. The source for the parable is heavenly inspiration, Matthew 18:23-35 and hearing the unorthodox gospel testimony of a devoted follower of Graham Maxwell. For more on the lawless one, see the recently updated Musings About An Adventist Antichrist.

Dear Shubee,

I thought as much. But you do the text a great injustice. Your paraphrase is excessive eisigesis in the extreme.

To give you more fodder for you cause, I refer you to the Seventy-day Adventist Hymnal, Review and Herald Publishing Association 1985. There are approxiately 90 hymns that stress the Moral Influence aspect of the Cross. A few are listed below:
Alas, and did my Savior bleed! page 163
Amazing Grace page 108
At the Cross page 163

By Christ redeemed page 404
Give Me Jesus page 305
God in His love for us page 3
Higher Ground page 625
I serve a risen Savior page 441
We will sing of my Redeemer 543
I've found a Friend 186
In the Cross of Jesus page 237
Jesus, the very though of Thee page 241
Like Jesus page 492
More love to Thee page 245
My faith looks up to Thee page 517
My hope is built on nothing less page 522
Not, I but Christ page 570

The list is much longer--check it yourself.

The request of the ages is "We would see Jesus!"

His influence is the moral strength of the Church and the nation. Please my dear frined don't discount it or those who would proclaim it.

Be like Jesus, is the bottom-line of Adventism , why in God's name do you keep knocking it, and those who have championed it?

The only alternative is: "I do it myself!" How childish, how vain, how self centered, h0w preposterous given more than six thousand years of written history of man.

I sincerely suggest you seek the Savior and quit damning A. Graham Maxwell. If you do, you can exclaim: Peace at last, Peace at last, Thank God Almighty, Peace at last.

The Investigative Judgment be damned. Jesus knows those who are His, so does the Devil, and so does the Universe.

A Final perfect generation is a mockery of the Cross and the life of Jesus Christ.

If you have any red books, burn them! Read Scripture as it wos written not as you would like it to read. There is power in the Word!!!! Not Condemnation!!!!! Tom

Tom Zwemer wrote: Your paraphrase is excessive eisigesis in the extreme.

I never claimed it was a paraphrase. It's a parable about God talking with someone that misunderstands Christ's use of relevant Biblical metaphors. But thanks for recognizing the similarity between the moneylender in my parable and the great Master Accountant in Matthew 18:23-35.

Sorry--Shubee your analogy is 180 out from your firt application.
obviously, the moral of the story is "Freely ye have received, freely give! You don't make that point at all, if fact you curse A. Graham Maxwell who does. Tom

The moral of the story is "Freely ye have received, freely give!" You don't make that point at all.

That's correct. The point of my parable is the obstinate folly of Socinians that say, “What kind of a moneylender would demand payment?”

Tom Zwemer wrote: The Investigative Judgment be damned. Jesus knows those who are His, so does the Devil, and so does the Universe.

I can't imagine that the Great Master Accountant is pleased by your refusal to respect His word. It's unmistakably clear that Jesus taught an Investigative Judgment in Matthew 25:14-30.

Jesus says in Matthew 25:19, "After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them." The noted evangelical John MacArthur offers this explanation: The word translated "reckon" is a commercial term meaning "to compare accounts." "The master of the household returned from his trip, and looked at his records to see how his servants did with their resources. That's what will happen to all people when the Lord returns. He will take a look at the books to see what men have done with their opportunity to serve the Lord." http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2376.htm

Alas, my Dear Shubee Alas! Please read the story of the Feast at Simon's House. Simply read the entire canon--if the Bible wasn't, isn't, the primary sourse of Moral Influence give me a better reference. (Sinbad, the Sailor, Superman, The Shadow, Oh yes Agent 707?) Tom

P. S. There are a host of biographies to witness to the moral influence of Scripture with the high point the Christ Event.

Try John Newton, Joseph Bates, Martin Luther William Miller---

There is a true version of moral influence theory and then there is Graham Maxwell's pan-Gnostic version of m.i.th. Those aren't exactly the same. I believe there's a significant difference between avoiding the relevant details of Scripture and receiving spiritualistic doctrines supplied by unreliable sources (1 Timothy 4:1).

So Shubee...

If you were in the same room, face to face with Graham Maxwell, would you call him a lawless antichrist, or whatever appelation you seem to think is a fitting label for the man? The denigrating of another through labeling is something very easy to do when one hides behind an on-line avatar. But whether you choose to do so only here, or if you actually have the temerity to treat another human being and fellow believer with such disrespect in a face to face meeting, the bottom line is that your rhetoric and behavior is the reason why so many people get turned off to Christianity. Because, this seems no different than the coarsening of public discourse that seems to be happening all over the web.

Discuss his ideas, leave out the labels and disrespect!

Frank

[ Frank: Shubee has 'left the building' - i.e. we have banned him from this website, for his inability or unwillingness to engage with appropriate civility. So, don't expect a response. - Website Editors]