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Eugene
Shubert
Junior Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003
7:51 am Post subject:
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There shouldn't be any
controversy over the idea that there are two types of
Christians: true Christians
and false Christians. I'm not saying that true
Christians are a part of Babylon. That would be absurd.
Formally, the leadership of Babylon is composed of the
Dragon, Beast and False Prophet (Rev 16:19). John saw the
spirits that animate them. “And I saw coming out of the mouth
of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the
mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out
to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for
the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.” Revelation
16:13,14.
I think it's reasonable to believe that
Babylon is comprised of all persons who embrace the sentiment
of the three demons' messages. True Christians preach the
three angels' messages. It's impossible to be confused as to
which message is which. A basic outline of the messages is
presented here:
http://www.everythingimportant.org/gospel
I see many false Christians embracing the demons'
messages and not the angel
messages!
_________________
Then Jesus said to his
disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny
himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Matthew
16:24. | |
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morashb
Intermediate Member
Joined: 20 Jul
2002
Posts: 71
Location: Camp Lejeune, NC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003
8:51 am Post subject:
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Eugene,
In order to
gain a better insight into the Book of Revelation it helps to
look at the historical events that lead up to the destruction
of Jerusalem that occurred in 70 A.D. Without a good
historical understanding, discussions of the this book of the
Bible, Zechariah, and Daniel go round and round and multiple
directions.
Since this discussion does not seem to be
going anywhere, I will move on to other
threads.
_________________
Bob M | |
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drawman
Advanced Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 311
Location:
Middle Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003
11:10 am Post
subject: |
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To complete my thoughts on
what can be determined regarding the 'whore of Babylon' I will
quote from The
Navarre Bible commentary.
| Quote: |
The
metaphor of prostitution is used in the Old Testament to
refer to idolatry and also alliances with foreign powers
(cf. Ezek 16:15, 23-24, 23:1-20). In the present case,
the power and influence of Rome was practically
universal, given the extent of the Empire. It is called
Babylon because Babylon was the prototype of cities
hostile to God (cf. v.5; Is 21:9; Jer 51:1-19). It is
characterized by its wealth, its immoral influence (v.
4) and its horrendous crimes against the Christian
martyrs (cf. v. 6), who, according to the Roman
historian Tacitus, “were abused in various ways: they
were covered with hides to be set upon by dogs, or
nailed to crosses, or burned alive and used as torches
to light up the darkness” (Annals, 15, 44).
The
figure of the great harlot, and the influence she
wields, is also interpreted as referring to impurity; St
John of the Cross, for example, explains the passage as
follows: “This phrase ‘have become drunk’ should be
noted. For, however little a man may drink of the wine
of this rejoicing, it at once takes hold of the heart,
as wine does to those who have been corrupted by it. So,
if some antidote is not at once taken against this
poison, to expel it quickly, the life of the soul is put
in jeopardy” (Ascent of Mount Carmel, 3,
22). |
With all due respect, I see nothing in the
Scriptures that would indicate that the harlot of babylon was
a reference to any kind of
Christian.
_________________
Peace,
Steve
M. | |
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Eugene
Shubert
Junior Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003
11:38 pm Post
subject: |
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Several respectable
witnesses on this thread see allusions to apostate Judaism in
the description of Babylon. It was admitted that the
destruction of Jerusalem represents a future event. The world
didn't end in 70AD. Oceans didn't turn into blood, etc.
Consider again the unmistakable parallel between
Revelation 18:24 and Matthew 23:32-36.
In speaking of Babylon, the angel said:
"In her was found the blood of prophets and of the
saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth"
(Revelation 18:24).
Jesus said:
"Fill up, then, the measure of the
sin of your forefathers!
You snakes! You brood of
vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore
I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of
them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your
synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the
righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the
blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of
Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this
generation." Matthew 23:32-36.
Think about the
enormity of the crime that justifies all the righteous blood
that was shed in the world to fall on these religious leaders.
Think about the colossal impact Jesus might have had in the
world if these leaders simply confessed what was true. The
magnitude of their sin is proportionate to the great light
they resisted. Jesus is the light of the world.
A
great awareness of the truth is required to reject great
light. The guilt of Babylon surpasses the sin of just
righteous blood. "In her was found the blood of prophets and
of the saints, and of all who
have been killed on the earth" (Revelation 18:24).
Consequently, "spiritual Jerusalem" at the end of time can't
be those bound to the darkness of Islam. It can't be a secular
power like Wall Street. It must represent all those who
profess Christ and refuse to obey Him.
I have not seen
a reasonable argument that I should abandon my interpretation.
What principle forbids Babylon representing those who embrace
the three demons' messages instead of the three angels'
messages?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/gospel
_________________
Then
Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me,
he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”
Matthew 16:24. | |
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drawman
Advanced Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 311
Location:
Middle Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003
1:34 am Post subject:
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Eugene,
In Matthew
24:42-44:
| Quote: |
Jesus himself
draws from this revelation about the future the
practical moral that a Christian needs to be on the
watch, living each day as if it were his last.
The
important thing is not to be speculating about when
these events will happen and what form they will take,
but to live in such a way that they find us in the state
of grace. | The
Navarre Bible St Matthew commentary
| Quote: |
42 Therefore, stay awake! For you
do not know on which day your Lord will come.
43
Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known
the hour of night when the thief was coming, he would
have stayed awake and not let his house be broken into.
44 So too, you also must be prepared, for at an
hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will
come. | The New American
Bible : With revised New Testament. 1986; Published in
electronic form by Logos Reseaarch Systems, 1996 (electronic
ed.) (Mt 24:42-44). Confraternity of Christian
Doctrine.
I see by your signature tag line that
you adhere to this lesson.
_________________
Peace,
Steve M. | |
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eightfoot514
Junior Member
Joined: 20 Aug
2003
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003
3:24 am Post subject:
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| Eugene Shubert
wrote: |
Consider again the unmistakable parallel
between Revelation 18:24 and Matthew 23:32-36.
In speaking of Babylon, the angel said:
"In her was found the blood of prophets and of
the saints, and of all who have been killed on the
earth" (Revelation 18:24). |
Eugene,
I believe Revelation 18:24 is
referring to martyrs, as is the case in Revelation 6:9-10:
| Quote: |
| When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I
saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been
slain because of the word of God, and because of the
testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out
with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and
true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our
blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
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_________________
A faith and knowledge
resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not
lie, promised before the beginning of time. Titus 1:2
Eric | |
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BobC
Section Moderator
Joined: 14 Jul 2002
Posts: 3047
Location:
USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003
3:55 am Post subject:
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Moderator's Warning
Eugene,
This is a Catholic Forum, dedicated to the discussion
of Catholic beliefs. And the better understanding of our
faith.
Any and All persons are welcome here, but your
continuing to post links to Seven Day Adventist web sites is
unwelcome. Please cease doing so.
BobC
COL
Staff
_________________
Bob C | |
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