'Whore of Babylon'

MParedon · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:19 am Post subject: 'Whore of Babylon'

I was in Barnes & Noble the other day and I saw quite a few books depicting Iraq and/or other parts of the Middle East as the Whore of Babylon. I was wondering if maybe those places are replacing the RCC as the W of B in peoples minds.

I have to admit I don't know much about the 'Whore of Babylon', I only know that I've heard the RCC being labled as such.

I was also wondering if this new W of B is distinctly American in viewpoint. I don't know if I can articulate very well why I think this, but I am troubled by it.
It sometimes seems that many people associate being Christian with being American, and while I am loyal to the U.S.A., I never really thought of God taking the American viewpoint b/c He has his own viewpoint that is bigger than one country. His people belong to all countries.

Oops, I didn't mean to get on a soapbox. But I come from the Deep South and I am confronted with these things and right now I was just hoping for other peoples thoughts and opinions.
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Maria G.

"Preach the gospel at all times. Use words when necessary." -Saint Francis of Assisi

Clare of Assisi · Advanced Member Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Posts: 253

Laura · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:55 pm Post subject:

Maria,
I'm from the South, too, and I know exactly what you mean!

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out what to do about it, yet!

One bit of good news that I heard yesterday: our local homeschoolers' group is very ecumenical -- lots of families from the two Catholic parishes, but also some anti-Catholic fundamentalist families. They have gotten together, their kids are in a choir... and that choir is coming to our 9:30 mass on Gaudete Sunday to sing!

That means that a number of fundamentalist families will be attending Mass that day, with their children who are singing with us and for us. Pray for us all!
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Soli Deo Gloria

Laura

empther · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:43 pm Post subject:

By the time John wrote Revelations he had seen the persecutions of the Christians by Nero and later emperors. Babylon is Rome, the pagan empire.

John couldn't use the name Rome explicitly in his criticisms because it would have brought down more persecution, but everybody knew what he meant.

Revelations is difficult reading because it's hard to tell whether the stories in it refer to future events or to incidents that happened in John's time. For example: it is said the dragon or devil will be let loose for a thousand years to ravage the world. Protestant writers have a whole industry of book-writing about the "Millenium". I suspect the dragon's 1,000 year freedom is simply the devil's influence in the world throughout human history. The devil's "one thousand years" will end at the end of the world when human history on earth stops. Why would God at some future time give the devil more power that he now has?
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Norman Boutin

"I would rather die than not be in the love of God"
"God and the Church are one and we should not complicate matters"
"I know not if I will have greater sufferings, but I trust in God"
---Saint Joan of Arc

Jammeraj · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:47 pm Post subject:

Norman wrote:

morashb · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:39 pm Post subject:

Art,

For an in depth discussion of the Apocalypse and the Whore of Babylon you might want to read the following book:

"Rapture, The End-Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind" by David Currie.

You can obtain it via Sophia Press:
1-800-888-9344
http://www.sophiainstitute.com/
_________________
Bob M

empther · Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:51 pm Post subject:

Jammeraj · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:04 am Post subject:

gabriel · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:09 am Post subject:

Norman - Re John couldn't use the name Rome explicitly in his criticisms because it would have brought down more persecution, but everybody knew what he meant. It has always been hard for me to believe that the dumbest Roman couldn't recognize that the Seven Mountains referred to Rome. I don’t see that it was a particularly Christian reference.
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- Joe Kelley
"Oh, that today you would hear his voice, Harden not your hearts as at the rebellion in the day of testing in the desert, where your ancestors tested and tried me"

Jammeraj · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:22 am Post subject:

morashb · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:26 am Post subject:

"... the Seven Mountains referred to Rome."

Here is something that is often overlooked. - Jerusalem was also built upon 7 hills: Zion, Acra, Moriah, Bezetha, Millo, Ophel, Antonio.

Could the "harlot" mentioned be actually referring to Jerusalem?
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Bob M

empther · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:16 am Post subject:

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives an interpretation of the Book of Revelations:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

Time and time again the Encyclopedia article identifies events in the Roman Empire of John’s time as being the symbols in the book.

Excerpts:

( First of all, what is John trying to do by writing this book? )

"PURPOSE OF THE BOOK
From this cursory perusal of the book, it is evident that the Seer was influenced by the prophecies of Daniel more than by any other book. Daniel was written with the object of comforting the Jews under the cruel persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes. The Seer in the Apocalypse had a similar purpose. TheChristians were fiercely persecuted in the reign of Domitian. The danger of apostasy was great. False prophets went about, trying to seduce the people to conform to the heathen practices and to take part in the Caesar-worship. The Seer urges his Christians to remain true to their faith and to bear their troubles with fortitude. He encourages them with the promise of an ample and speedy reward. He assures them that Christ s triumphant coming is at hand.”

From the INTERPRETATION section:

“The beast from the sea that had received plenitude of power from the dragon, or Satan, is the Roman Empire, or rather, Caesar, its supreme representative. The token of the beast with which its servants are marked is the image of the emperor on the coins of the realm. This seems to be the obvious meaning of the passage, that all business transactions, all buying and selling were impossible to them that had not the mark of the beast (Ap., xiii. 17). “

..........and.............

“The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They areAugustus Tiberius,Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96).”
_________________
Norman Boutin

"I would rather die than not be in the love of God"
"God and the Church are one and we should not complicate matters"
"I know not if I will have greater sufferings, but I trust in God"
---Saint Joan of Arc

blainethepaine · Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:22 am Post subject:

Hi Bob,

Jammeraj · Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:51 am Post subject:

Jack

Thanks for the link. Interesting. I also find your hypothesis that Jerusalem could be the Whore of Babylon.

Given the article you linked me too...and given your Jerusalem hypothesis, I would tend to agree with you that Jerusalem has some backing...it would make more sense, in my way of thinking, anyway...as that is where Christ was crucified.

Peace
~Art
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As for me and my house, we will follow Rome...

angel1 · New Member Joined: 05 Oct 2003 Posts: 4

Eugene Shubert · Junior Member Joined: 19 Nov 2003 Posts: 11

drawman · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:12 am Post subject:

It seems to me that Revelations is full of symbols that defy exact interpetations.

drawman · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:42 am Post subject:

Fido85 · Junior Member Joined: 05 Dec 2003 Posts: 18

An interesting note is that in it's early days the symbol of the European Parliment was a woman riding a beast on 7 hills.

I have heard many theories that the current EU could be a revived Roman Empire in revelation. I have actually never heard the theory on Jerusalem, don't really know what to think about it.
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Paul Steele

Delight youself in the Lord and he wil give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

Eugene Shubert · Junior Member Joined: 19 Nov 2003 Posts: 11

drawman,

I agree that the destruction of Jerusalem is a symbol. But if it's a symbol that makes any sense at all, shouldn't it represent apostate Christians who blindly follow the established church (like the Jews did) and thus are not truly in step with following Jesus Christ? If so, doesn't that lead us to the conclusion that Babylon is apostate Christianity?

How do you characterize the mind-set of the people of Jerusalem in 70AD just before their destruction?
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Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Matthew 16:24.

drawman · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:57 am Post subject:

Eugene,

Do you have a particular group of apostate Christians in mind? History is not my strong point, so what was the mindset of the people of Jerusalem at that time?

Actually, I get Rome and Jerusalem mixed up, weren't they both part of the Roman Empire?
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Peace,
Steve M.

morashb · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:12 am Post subject:

Eugene,

You stated, "... But if it's a symbol that makes any sense at all, shouldn't it represent apostate Christians who blindly follow the established church (like the Jews did) and thus are not truly in step with following Jesus Christ? If so, doesn't that lead us to the conclusion that Babylon is apostate Christianity?"

--------

I don't think so.

Keep in mind that "Christ established the Church" and promised that the gates of hades would not prevail against it. To follow the Church is not what will get us into trouble.

Those who were recipients of the destruction and rath were not those who "were blindly" following, but actually against those who were persecuting.

The following is suggested by author David Currie in his book, "Rapture, The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind," page 321 - 323:

The historian Josephus states the "royal city Jerusalem was supreme, and presided over all neighboring countries as the head does over the body." Jerusalem at the time was on a trade route and was relatively wealthy: "The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls" (17:4).

"The sea-beast on which the harlot has been riding will change its mind about this evil woman and ultimately 'will hate the harlot ... will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire'" (17:16). ... There could be no clearer fulfillment of these verses than in the events of the decade leading up to 70 A.D. Jerusalem's Sanhedrin had sought to repress the Christians from the very first beating they administered to Peter and John (Acts 4). Three decades later, in 64 A.D, they finally convinced the Roman authorities to help them in their pursuit and persecution of the Christians. The harlot Jerusalem then rode the beast Rome into the Church's Great Tribulation. But in 66 A.D., Jerusalem revolted. The Roman Empire turned on the city of the seven hills in rage at this treachery and utterly destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple. The beast Rome did indeed 'hate the harlot ... make her desolate ... and burn her up with fire.'"
_________________
Bob M

Eugene Shubert · Junior Member Joined: 19 Nov 2003 Posts: 11

drawman,

There is only one basic kind of apostate Christian. Scripture, including the book of Revelation, illustrates it clearly.

A major parallel between apostate Judaism in 70AD and spiritual Babylon today, I believe, is their irrational presumption of being secure in God's favor and at the same time being completely indifferent to God's stated requirements. For example: Imagine the reaction of the average religious Jew in Jerusalem if he had heard that his church leaders were involved in a malicious and unscriptural plot to have Jesus crucified. I bet many were quiet. God's word says,

Bill Hatfield ObOSB

drawman · Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:21 am Post subject:

Eugene,

The book of Revelation is definitly a call to conversion. Wherever the whore of Babylon is, there will be fire and brimstone.
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Peace,
Steve M.

eightfoot514 · Junior Member Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Posts: 40

Eugene Shubert · Junior Member Joined: 19 Nov 2003 Posts: 11

drawman · Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:45 pm Post subject:

Eugene,

I don't see the connection regarding the Jeremiah 5:30-31 citation, because in Jeremiah 14:14-16 the prophet goes on to explain that the false prophets and their followers do not escape the wrath of God.

morashb · Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:52 am Post subject:

Eugene,

You asked, "Surely you don't mean to imply that somehow Catholics are free from deception and that the Catholic priesthood is beyond corruption?"

-----

Catholics are not free from deception nor are are Catholic priests beyond corruption.

Something to consider is that the Church should be judged by what it teaches and not by the failure of some of its members to live up to its teachings.

This is beginning to get somewhat off track from the initial intent of this thread.
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Bob M

morashb · Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:33 am Post subject:

Eugene,

When was the Church "born?"

Who were persecuting the Church?

Who and what were destroyed in the Roman assault on Jerusalem?

Would Christ allow Satan to overcome the Church?
_________________
Bob M