Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: Facetios..
WillieH: Hello RP..
You are being facetious and you know it... how immature... Of course discipline is involved... but it this discipline permanent? On-going? Does any discipline of children continue into eternity?
What is the purpose of disciplining children - eh? To torment? To gain vengence? To eliminate them? To bully? To display your physical or mental power over them?
Or, is the purpose to CORRECT them? To RESET them concerning the right way? To bring them BACK to the way YOU KNOW is RIGHT? To GENTLY (with LOVE), bring them back into right thinking, and practice of life...
If you do NOT continue to be facetious you will answer NO to the questions in bold, and YES to the ones in ITALICS.
If in fact, you ARE a PHYSICIST... you do NOT show DISCIPLINE in answering SIMPLE matters! Rather, your answers display IMMATURITY by your OBSESSION to be RIGHT, as opposed to LEARNING the TRUTH of a given matter... Before you wrote this post, you intended it to be a jab (spirit not of CHRIST), thereby attempting to provoke... Well RP, I am a father of 3, grandfather of 10 and am WELL EDUCATED in the rearing of CHILDREN which gives me great INSIGHT into GOD as a FATHER, MORE IMPORTANTLY... great INSIGHT as to how LOVE TRULY OPERATES...
So, grow up a little, and learn a lesson: TRUE LOVE's discipline has a goal, and that GOAL is REDEMPTION of the SUBJECT of the discipline, NOT the DEATH of the SUBJECT...
PS... Observing your lack of greeting further displays the shallow areas your heart abides in.. LOVE always greets both Friends and Enemies in LOVE... you have much to learn, even though you may be an intellectual.. In your continued sarcasm.. you close your facetious post with "agape"... think about it....
In JESUS, ...WillieH
Rogue Physicist wrote:
Raise a few children without discipline, and then call me.
YOU, within your RELIGION stand against the true GOSPEL.. ...It is YOU that are mocking the scriptures.. I quoted them, and continue to quote them.......you mock them..... You are of the most Pharisee-ical persons I have ever encountered! ...Rogue Physicist? You might better label yourself by dropping the latter word...
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Just as I thought, your response would be a "religious" opinion.
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As is your "M.O.", you sidestep the issue...You grossly misunderstand biblical FEAR... And it DEEPLY effects your beliefs... May the scales drop from your heart.. and your eyes...
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I do however, pray that your (obviously blocked) ears to be opened by Him...One last "obvious" comment... obviously you know nothing of the definition of LOVE (AGAPE)
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You are being facetious and you know it... how immature...If in fact, you ARE a PHYSICIST... you do NOT show DISCIPLINE in answering SIMPLE matters! Rather, your answers display IMMATURITY by your OBSESSION to be RIGHT.
Your Opinion of (and claims for) Yourself:
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I speak from the Word of God ONLY... And will answer with Scripture, any questions that might be asked of my posts...
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I worship YHWH out of Father to son LOVE and Master to student/child AWE... which is the true form of FEAR..
Your Testimony against your own Authority:
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And what makes you better than me, or tom better than sue or President Bush better than a starving child in Zimbabwe? The answer is... NOTHING.. for GOD Loves ALL ...EQUALLY!
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First, may I say that I don't have all the answers... no one does...
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Let no man judge another, for with the same judgement one judges, ...ONE shall be JUDGED!
Your False Doctrines and misuse of Scripture:
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But it is IMPERITIVE for a true believer to establish His/her faith by the study of the WORD of GOD only...
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The misunderstood "Lake of Fire" is not something that will DESTROY God's children...The Lake of Fire IS CHRIST.. "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE.."
Your hypocrisy reflected by your own broken promises:
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After such an unspiritual reply I find it a waste to spend further time with you and your RELIGION (...10 posts later still talking!)
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I shall not further waste time in your case...
Warnings in Scripture concerning your behaviour:
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"If I boast, it is worth nothing."(Paul)
"If a man testifies of himself, his testimony is worthless."(Jesus in John)
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"Hypocrite! Remove the log in your own eye, before you try to remove the speck from another's eye."(Jesus in Matthew)
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"Do not seek to be a teacher." (Paul)
"Pride puffs up."
Paul's Model of AGAPE Behaviour:
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Love is patient: Love is kind: Love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way: It is not irritable or resentful: It does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes in all things, endures all things. (1 Cor. 13:4-7)
If you are an honest child of God, errant or not, you will be able to recognize that Paul's statement here speaks of an entirely different Spirit than the spirit that inspired the words you have written above.
In contrast, your words lack patience. Many are not kind. Some go beyond confident to boastful and arrogant, and rude by any standard. You insist on your own way. You are easily irritated. You only rejoice in your own 'truth'. You refuse to bear very much of anything that disagrees with your own doctrines. You don't believe in much, even the ordinary and plausible as regards people's view of themselves, and finally you don't seem able to endure much of anything you don't like or understand.
You imagine your behaviour is justified by the value and importance of your 'true doctrines'. But neither Paul nor Jesus would have been so unloving, mean-minded and petty in their disputes. They would have said less, and said it less rudely, and accomplished more.
For instance, when confronted by the Pharisees with a woman to be stoned, Jesus used no words at all, but simply wrote in the sand, and waited until every Pharisee there saw the light on his own, in his own time.
When others drove a mentally ill person out to live in a graveyard, Jesus called him to His feet with a kind word. When others forced 10 lepers to live out of town, Jesus simply healed them without any doctrinal demands, and sent them on their way.
When Thomas questioned Jesus' ressurrection, Jesus simply showed His hands.
The Truth defends itself. If you had an important truth, you'd present it without a fuss quickly and get out of the way, like Mary to the disciples: "We have seen the Lord!".
Jesus did not turn Nicodemus away. Peter embraced the Roman Cornelius and his family, moved in and taught them. Paul took a public Nazarite Vow in the Jerusalem Temple in order to remove any stumbling blocks for his hearers. What have you done for me, except insult me?
You think because you have seen some great truth about Universal Salvation that you are now automatically a Preacher, Teacher and Prophet.
Think again. He who would be greatest must serve all, and you have not served me in any useful way.
Your intent is to find fault in me... which I readily admit... You disect me as would a scientist, ..an insect..
By the sheer use of names (WillieH and Rogue Physcist) have we also displayed which of the 2 of us is "HIDING"....
In the end... you conclude that I have not served you in any useful way..
What makes you're ego'd out, judgemental (just read your post concerning me as reference) self think that YOU have SERVED ME... In any USEFUL way? You are as full of yourself as you accuse me to be... (just read your post concerning me as reference)...
You are quick to remind me that I have not abandoned you as promised.. well, have your wish... I bid you adeiu here...
I hope you reply so that you may have the LAST WORD in our conversation... which will SERVE to puff up your opinion which is certainly not in need of any further inflation...
I (unlike you)... wish YOU prosperity in your search for GOD... May His light shine in the capacity He has foreordained for you...
Both of us have defined LOVE within our approach and statements to one another.. I believe anyone reading them will find each of our words, self evident of the presence or lack of said LOVE..
1 Tim 4:9-11/John 3:17 / John 1:29 / Luke 19:10 / 1 Tim 2:3-4 / 1 John 4:14 / Phil 2:10-11 / 1 Cor 15:22 / Rom 5:8 / Rom 5:19 / / Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 3:12-15 / Rom 5:20...
WilleH, I apologize for taking a while to get to my response. I will endeavor to look at each of the texts you cited, mixing some others in as I go. I hope to approach it all from a biblical standpoint. Finally I will look at some overall conclusions. I applaud your desire to base all doctrine on the Bible. I definitely disagree with your conclusions. But I agree that the Bible should be the basis, and we should not hide from the texts you quote.
TEXT 1
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1TI 4:9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Alright, a few comments here. First of all it is true that we need to understand why it says that God is the Savior of all men. Certainly He is. However, it is also necessary for you to explain what he means by ESPECIALLY of those who believe? How can one be especially saved? Now I realize there are varying rewards within the kingdom. But it doesn't say different rewards, it says that God is especially a Savior to those who believe. If you are saved you are saved aren't you?
Second of all, there are some other texts that I think are helpful to point out here.
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2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
In this text we see two elements. First, that God did provide salvation for all men. That is clear in that no one need perish. However, there is also the fact that He is patient not wanting anyone to perish. Does that no seem to say that some could perish? Since you see everyone coming to salvation, do you also believe that everyone repents? Because in this text repentance is the basis for experiencing salvation, though it is offered to all. The context is clearly the end of time, and the reward is later in the chapter being with God in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness.
Another text, along the same lines, but perhaps even clearer:
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EZE 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Here God is expounding on the basis of His judgement. Again, He longs for all to be saved, but it is clear from the whole chapter that some stubbornly refuse. Again the key factor is repentance.
In both of these texts we see that God is the Savior of all mankind. But some resist that and lose out. He sees it as a great tragedy because they need only repent.
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JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
You quoted only verse 17. And in that verse it says that God wanted to save the world. However, simply examining the context shows that the statement is a LIMITED statement. It makes no sense without the verses around it. Whoever BELIEVES shall not perish but have eternal life. Not only that, but 18 is so clear we might cut short this whole discussion. Whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not STANDS CONDEMNED ALREADY. The point is clear. Jesus died for everyone. But unless they believe it is pointless for them. And they are condemned because they reject their only hope.
The language which a statement is couched in makes a big difference. For instance let's say that I was a rescue worker in New Orleans at the recent tragedy there. And I made the statement that "I have come to help New Orleans, not to kill it." Now, let's also say that I rescued people, but some refused to be rescued–which in fact did happen in some cases. Now, did I come to help or destroy New Orleans? I came to help. But I clearly did not save all because some refused. That does not negate my summary statement. It was a statement of PURPOSE. That is WHY He came. It is reminiscent of Jesus statement to Jerusalem.
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MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Jesus' purpose was clear. He could truly say He came to save Jerusalem. But He could not say He was successful in every case, though through no fault of His own. The opportunity was provided.
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JN 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Jesus does in fact take away the sin of the world. Some by taking away the sin from the people, and some by destroying them AND their sin in the second death. IN fact in 2 Peter 3 we see the description of how he DESTROYS the world in fire to cleanse it ,and starts over to make a home for righteousness.
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LK 19:9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Um, I have no problem with this statement at all. I preach on it a lot :) However, you need to understand the context again.
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LK 19:7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a `sinner.' "
LK 19:8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
Zaccheus had just repented of his sins. So Jesus' statement was in regard to His repentance. In fact, if you recall Jesus' summed up His ministry in the words "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Moreover, why SEEK the lost, if they will be saved regardless?
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1TI 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
I included 6 here too since we might as well cover both in their context. 3 and 4 are quite clear. God WANTS all men to be saved. This was seen in 2 Peter and Ezekiel too. But it does not mean all will. In fact, the whole point is that we are INTERCEDING for them. Why? So that they MIGHT be saved. In other words, we are interceding so it might come about.
Verse 6 again is an affirmation that Jesus did die for all men. But their acceptance of that is clearly a key as is seen in the other texts, and even implied in the intercession of this text. Notice the illustration used–ransom. Is it possible to ransom someone who chooses not to go free? Yes, it is. The weight here is on the fact that He paid the price for all men. And that is quite true.
TEXT 6
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1JN 4:13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
Context again. Conditional statements are particularly telling as they qualify the statement. IF anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God. The whole burden of John's letter is to warn them of those who left, who were not really a part of them, who do NOT acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God. Notice these quotes from the same book:
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1JN 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
This says that those who do not have the Son of God do not have life. It is followed by a direct statement that those who believe on the Son of God have eternal life. It is quite clear that eternal life is NOT granted to all, and that belief in the Son is the key.
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PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
JAS 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.[/quote]
Confession without repentance means nothing. As this text demonstrates. I have no doubt that everyone will confess Jesus is Lord in the judgement. They will have little choice. But that does not mean they will follow Him or repent of their deeds.
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1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
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The resurrection of the dead does indeed come to all. However, there are two resurrections. The first is described in the words THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM. However, notice that not all are privileged to be in that resurrection.
REV 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
All indeed are made alive. But those in the second resurrection do not rise when Jesus comes but a thousand years later. And they rise to be judged, and to die the second death. Even Corinthians says that all of His enemies will be put under His feet. This clearly happens at the judgement. Which is also when all of them acknowledge Him. But their end result is not salvation but second death.
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RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since all were ungodly that in fact means He died for all of us. However, I think you will find that Paul also affirms that not all will share in this salvation. The principle in this verse is on God's immense love. He is willing to die even for someone who doesn't deserve it. But I think you will find that Paul affirms that not all receive salvation.
In fact, examine this rather impassioned statement from Paul:
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1CO 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Paul goes to great lengths to save sinners. Why? First of all it shows that he is concerned that they will be LOST. He even says this at the end where he says he has become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save SOME. That is what Jesus did. He made provision for all. But not all were saved.
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GAL 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I don't think you can really get any more clear than that. If God's word says they will not inherit the kingdom of God, how can you say they do? Now of course in I Corinthians he speaks to some of the believers who had been CLEANSED. But here he is warning about those who are not cleansed. In both cases he is urging them not to share in this.
I will cover all the Romans 5 texts now. No sense in hopping around. You didn't include 18, but it is probably your strongest here.
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RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
RO 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Here again we have the sacrifice which brings life for all men. But that contradicts with nothing I have said yet. It still must be accepted as is shown in other texts. The whole point of this passage is that Jesus is greater than Adam. His salvation is able to save from Adam's fall. While that seems straight forward to us it is quite revolutionary to people who felt that those who sinned deserved death. Jesus bought salvation for all. God wants salvation for all. But not all receive salvation.
TEXT 10
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COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
You mentioned verse 20. Notice that the context is that Jesus is the Creator, Sustainer and ruler of all things. However, note what it says after this. Again, context is important.
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COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Here again, you need to continue in your FAITH. And again, notice that God proclaimed it to everyone, giving everyone a chance. Offering salvation to all. But not all receive it.
TEXT 11
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1CO 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Here we see the concept of varying rewards among those saved. I have no problem with that. But again, you must read the whole context. Who are those who are saved through the flames? And what are the flames? The flames are those that test the work of God's servants. Some stands the test of time, and some does not. However, this in no way even includes the unbeliever. Because the whole text is talking about those who BUILD ON THE FOUNDATION WHICH IS CHRIST. So it is talking about believers. And I have no doubt that some will receive greater reward, and as Jesus states, more responsibility too. The whole discussion was about them fighting over which preacher they liked better. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.
I think that covers them all. Now, since I have taken time to look at your verses, please return the favor. How do you explain the following texts?
MT 21:43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
MK 10:13 People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.
LK 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. " JN 3:4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
MT 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
2TH 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. HEB 6:7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. HEB 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
EV 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There are many, many more, which state quite clearly that some people will NOT inherit eternal life. Now, let us look at the overall picture.
1. There are statements where is says that Jesus died for the world, the sins of the world, for all men.
2. There are statements which state that not all men will be saved.
You have a few choices.
1. The Bible contradicts itself.
2. Each of the authors wrote from their own perspective, and while their other words were inspired they wrote this into it.
3. Jesus did in fact die for the whole world, but the whole world did not accept it. Therefore those who believe, repent and continue in the faith are saved.
Due to the overwhelming evidence I go with number three.
I have not read all the answers yet in the thread. I thought it best to answer your first post from my understanding before being biased by all the various views. But I intend to read through them, and might comment further at that time.
I respect that you are taking the words of the Bible seriously. But I would say that when you take all the words together, a different conclusion is in my view called for.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject: Warned...
WillieH: Hello Tall73...
No, I wont give you 90 scriptures to reply to you (how small of you to say such words) because it is futility, as you do not believe what they say anyhow... much as the "religious" pharisees did NOT believe...
Christ cannot BE the Savior of ALL men unless He, in fact, SAVES ALL MEN! This simplicity escapes you... and will continue to until God UNVEILS you. (the scriptures do NOT say that Christ is POTENTIALLY the Savior of ALL MEN, now does it?)
Religion must be jettisoned first... for Christ many times informed the Pharisees that they were blind guides, and that goes for todays religious ones as well...
What I will give you in reply is this... Christian RELIGION (SDA/Baptist/Methodist/Catholic/Pentecostal...etc) still ULTIMATELY makes SALVATION subject to the INDIVIDUAL's DECISION and not GOD...
Have you "accepted" Christ, Tall? (as if ANYONE could possibly "accept" the living God.. (roll my eyes) Do you not KNOW that we are ALL within His HANDS? Within HIS PURPOSE? As if ANY lump of dirt has anything of value to say... (roll my eyes again)
But all RELIGIONS that claim Christs name necessitate this act in order that salvation be gained... its common equation:
"Accept" Christ and be saved... "reject" Christ and be LOST... Placing the ultimate decision in the hands of each individual.. God demands forgiving enemies... but does no such thing for His...
How UNPOWERFUL.. Let each "lump of dirt" decide (*albeit uninformed, ...for no one has ascended into Heaven nor witnessed the flames of "Hell") as to whether he wishes eternal life or the big barbeque... Puleeese!
The TRUE equation: God is no RESPECTER of CLAY... as IN ADAM ..ALL DIE, so IN CHRIST shall ALL be made alive... God demands forgiveness of enemies and follows up by SETTING the ULTIMATE EXAMPLE of TOTAL FORGIVENESS... For he has MERCY on (ALL) the (stupid) sheep... He has given Himself for (ALL) the (stupid) Sheep! And guess what... He LOVES (ALL) the (stupid) Sheep!
Religious folk can and will argue tooth and nail for their traditional view... and consequently will be judged for their false representations...
I will not argue further (although there are many SCRIPTURAL refutes of your post... and you would further argue against any I would place before you... and then I would place others, and you would strive against them and on, and on, and on...) so here's my solution...
Tall73, in the end, it appears your quest in not to gain the truth (because in your own estimation you already have it)... your quest to BE RIGHT! So, I will let you be right... BUT BE IT HERE KNOWN, ...you have been warned of your position in traditionalism...
As were warned, the Pharisees and Scribes... you along with most of the 2 billion present day "Christians" will soon discover the meaning of the words of CHRIST In Luke 18:8-9...
(8) "When the Son of Man returns shall He find FAITH on the Earth"
(9) and he spake THIS PARABLE unto CERTAIN which TRUSTED in THEMSELVES that THEY were RIGHTEOUS and DESPISED OTHERS.."
In Luke 18:8-9 and throughout the NT, what he MOST DETESTED was RELIGION.. for that is why He posed such a question in Luke 18... practically ALL He will find when he returns IS RELIGION... (as in Luke 18) NOT ...FAITH, and (as in Luke 18), NOT ...TEACHERS of the TRUTH...
He stated THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO - NOT - ONE! Guess that leaves us all in the same pot eh? The UNRIGHTEOUS POT... of course religious teachers wouldnt consider such a thing... such as considering their teachings are as filthy rags.. And, (Luke 15) like the elder son, complain that God saves the LOST (ALL), instead of rejoicing in it, ...I think you catch my drift...
WilleH said:
If GOD does NOT intend on SAVING ALL MEN, please explain the following scriptures: John 3:17 / John 1:29 / Luke 19:10 / 1 Tim 2:3-4 / 1 John 4:14 / Phil 2:10-11 / 1 Cor 15:22 / Rom 5:8 / Rom 5:19 / 1 Tim 2:6 / Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 3:12-15 / Rom 5:20...
once you explain those, I will provide about about 90 others for your comments...
I merely did what you asked. Will you not even look at it?
Since you won't look at all of my texts, I will only ask you to explain one. It is one you posted yourself. I think that is fair to ask.
Quote:
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Please explain:
-Why does the text list believing as a factor in who will perish and who will have ETERNAL LIFE? If it matters not whether a lump of clay acknowledges God, why does this text say it is the whole basis?
-Does not the fact that some perish and do NOT have eternal life make your whole thesis a bit questionable?
-Is it not clear that it was God's PURPOSE to send Jesus into the world that is in question here, not a statement that everyone was saved?
- What does it mean to be condemned? Why is believing tied to it?
You have been very bold in demanding people take you seriously. Now show how willing you are to do the same. Or do you not seek after truth either?
I am not calling you a pharisee. I assume you really do want to do what God asks. So since you are introducing what you believe to be new light to us, explain the text you posted.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject:
Hi all
The poll question at the top of this thread reads: 'Will GOD only save some, ...or as the Word says ...ALL?'
The poll question should read: Will GOD only save some or ALL?
The reason for this is that the insertion of the phrase 'or as the Word says' construes anyone who replies with the first option as out of harmony with the Word of God. This means the question is biased toward one answer and unfair.
Here's what I believe about salvation:
All persons are elect in Christ except those who the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost, namely, those who ultimately reject or remain indifferent to whatever revelation God has given of himself to them whether in nature/conscience or in gospel presentation.
This view is based upon these three biblical facts:
1) The so-called "universalistic" texts speak of a certain-to-be-realized salvation as Calvinist have consistently maintained and they do so in terms of all persons as Arminians have always affirmed.
2) All persons, except Jesus Christ, are liable for and polluted by the imputed sin of Adam (inherited sin). However, the Scriptures do not teach or imply that anyone is consigned to eternal damnation solely on the basis of their sin in Adam APART FROM actual, willful and persistent sin on the part of the person so consigned.
3) We must accept the so-called "universalistic" texts as written. We may allow only those exceptions that are necessarily imposed upon these passages from the broader context of the Scriptures as a whole.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: How many Knees?
WillieH: Hello to Tall & Spozz... grace be unto you both...
I have one reply for both of you... How many "knees" and "tongues" are disincluded in the following verses? (which GOD, in His Word, repeated 3 times!)
Is 45:23 / Rom 11:4 / Php 2:10.....
EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY TONGUE CONFESS that JESUS CHRISTis LORD to the glory of God the Father...
Confession of JESUS CHRIST as Lord can ONLY BE DONE by the HOLY SPIRIT..
Confession is made unto SALVATION...
EVERY TONGUE shall confess....
This doesn't leave out ANYONE...
It is (the decieved) MAN that envisions DEATH upon those that are unsaved ...not God... (remember, before you were "saved" you too were amongst this number...)
If you truly, in your heart, sided with Jesus about Salvation, you would know that He looked down times trail and saw amongst all the others 3 sinners.... WillieH, ...Tall73, ...Spozz... and made a way for these 3 sorry and sinful individuals, just as he made a way for EVERY OTHER INDIVIDUAL....
Behold the Lamb of GOD that TAKETH AWAY the sin of the [WORLD] (pas/gk= ALL)
You 2 are of "elder son" mentality and spirituality... The Father CORRECTED the elder son's lack of VISION at the celebration of the return of the prodigal son... He will one day, do so with you 2 as well... to which I will greatly celebrate!
So Tall... the answer to your scripture (John 3:16) is that NONE shall PERISH... ALL shall BELIEVE and CONFESS...
Your understandings are confined to Man's viewpoint... that Salvation of ALL is IMPOSSIBLE because YOU ...CANNOT see it!
My Bible says that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with GOD... Once you side with this view.... then you will become unveiled...
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: Re: How many Knees?
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hello to Tall & Spozz... grace be unto you both...
I have one reply for both of you... How many "knees" and "tongues" are disincluded in the following verses? (which GOD, in His Word, repeated 3 times!)
Is 45:23 / Rom 11:4 / Php 2:10.....
Hi WillieH ... grace be unto you, too.
Who is excluded from the following verses?
'As the Scriptures say,
“No one is good—
not even one.
No one has real understanding;
no one is seeking God.
All have turned away from God;
all have gone wrong.
No one does good,
not even one.” (Ro 3:10-12, NLT)
If these verses are true (and they are, because they are Scripture), then NOONE is excluded from this diagnosis. This means that Jesus must also be a sinner.
Before you attack me for blasphemy, let me make it clear that I don't agree with this conclusion. Jesus obviously was NOT a sinner. He was entirely perfect. However, using your hermeneutic of reading exactly what is in a verse and taking it exactly as it reads, then the conclusion about Jesus is inevitable.
We know that these verses CANNOT literally mean every single person who has ever lived. It is obviously a generalisation with Jesus being an exception. We know Jesus is an exception to this ABSOLUTE statement because of what we know about Jesus from other parts of Scripture. But we don't say Paul is wrong because we know that it is quite normal for humans to use the language of generalisation, knowing that there are exceptions to them.
The same can be said of the verses you cite. They are generalisations with exceptions. We know they are generalisations with exceptions because of other Scriptures which teach that some will be lost.
Regarding Isa 45:23: Read these words a bit later in Isaiah about God's enemies:
'“I have trodden the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were grapes. In my fury I have trampled my foes. It is their blood that has stained my clothes. For the time has come for me to avenge my people, to ransom them from their oppressors. I looked, but no one came to help my people. I was amazed and appalled at what I saw. So I executed vengeance alone; unaided, I passed down judgment. I crushed the nations in my anger and made them stagger and fall to the ground.”' (Is 63:3-6, NLT)
'Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: “You will starve, but my servants will eat. You will be thirsty, but they will drink. You will be sad and ashamed, but they will rejoice. You will cry in sorrow and despair, while my servants sing for joy. Your name will be a curse word among my people, for the Sovereign Lord will destroy you and call his true servants by another name. All who invoke a blessing or take an oath will do so by the God of truth. For I will put aside my anger and forget the evil of earlier days.' (Is 65:13-16, NLT)
Read on to the end of Isaiah; there is a lot more. Doesn't sound like the persistenly wicked nations survive to me!
Regarding Romans 11:4: Read the next verse:
'It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few are being saved as a result of God’s kindness in choosing them. ' (Ro 11:5, NLT)
Regarding Phillipians 2:10:
'Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he went, always pressing on toward Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?”
He replied, “The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, because many will try to enter, but when the head of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. Then you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I do not know you.’ You will say, ‘But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you. Go away, all you who do evil.’
“And there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets within the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. Then people will come from all over the world to take their places in the Kingdom of God. And note this: Some who are despised now will be greatly honored then; and some who are greatly honored now will be despised then.”' (Lk 13:22-30, NLT)
Someone asked Jesus whether only a few would be saved. His answer was, YES!
'... For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God’s written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law.' (Ro 2:5-12, NLT)
Quite clearly, God will give some eternal life but not those who persist in rejecting God.
'And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”' (Mt 25:46, NLT)
The nations are divided into sheep and goats... some to eternal life, some to eternal punishment.
Paul Helm has written that:
'Those who have held that all men will finally be saved have often believed that this follows logically from the character of God. They have held that since God is essentially and omnipotently loving it follows that he could not allow any human being to suffer an eternity of torments [I don't agree with Helm's view of eternal torment -- but that is beside the question] in hell. For such Christians there is a serious stumbling block, namely those sayings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels which unequivocally speak of an eternal separation between the saved and the damned. How often the sayings of Jesus say or imply this is open to dispute, but that some of them do (e.g. Matt 25:41, 46) is beyond question.' (Helm, P 1983, 'Universalism and the Threat of Hell', Trinity Journal, vol. 4, no. 1, pp. 35-43.)
James I Packer identifies three problems with universalism:
1) It ignores the biblical stress on the decisiveness of this life, and its decisions.
'Why did Jesus warn the Jews that the issue of unbelief would be that they would die in their sins (John 8:21, 24)? Why did He specifically warn against sin against the Holy Spirit, which has no forgiveness here or hereafter (Mark 3:28–29; Matt 12:32)? Why did He include in the story of Dives and Lazarus the detail about the great gulf fixed between those in joy and those in torment (Luke 16:26)? Why did He say of Judas: “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good it were for that man if he had not been born” (Matt 26:24)? None of these statements is explicable ,save on the basis that, for better or for worse, the choices and commitments made in this life have abiding consequences for the life to come, and he who does not lay hold of life here will certainly not enjoy it hereafter. And when Paul spells out the principle of retribution (Rom 2:5–11), and warns that we must all be made manifest before Christ’s judgment seat that each may receive the things done in the body, whether good or evil (2 Cor 5:10), and lays it down that what a man sows he will also reap (Gal 6:7), he is making the same point. “Second-chance” speculations, of whatever form, would seem to be absolutely excluded.'
2) It condemns the preaching of Christ and his apostles as either inept or immoral.
'Evangelicals have sometimes been censured for preaching hell and the wrath to come, and counselling their hearers to flee from it, and so avoid a lost eternity. But Jesus and the apostles did the same! Now, if universalism is true, and the founders of Christianity did not know it, their preaching stands revealed as ignorant and incompetent; and if universalism is true, and they did know it, their preaching stands revealed as bluff, frightening people into the kingdom by holding before them unreal terrors. I leave it to the universalists to choose which of these options to settle for. “We must preach hell,” says Ferré, “as having a school and a door in it.”; But why did not Jesus preach hell that way? The question presses.'
3) Universalism is rejected by the honest Christian conscience.
'Wrote James Denney:”I dare not say to myself that if I forfeit the opportunity this life offers I shall ever have another; and
therefore I dare not say so to another man”—nor, therefore, of another man. How can I without hypocrisy encourage in others a hope which my own conscience tells me would be a false hope if I relied on it?
Why do we smile at the story of the preacher who took as his text “How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?” (Heb 2:3) and announced two heads:(1) the greatness of Christ’s salvation and (2) advice on how to escape if we neglect it? The universalist, when you pin him down, is the preacher in that story! But conscience forbids us to go this way. “Believe on the Lord Jesus”—that is the way of salvation, and no form of post-mortem second-chance speculation (let alone the universalist, which is the most extreme and optimistic version of this fancy) can justify itself to a man’s conscience, any more than it can support itself from the Bible. To say this is not to slight the love of God or the victory of the cross, but simply to keep standing under the gospel in which this love and victory are made known, “from faith for faith” (cf. Rom 1:17)! And where else should one want, or allow oneself, to stand? “Some one said to him, ‘Lord, will those who are saved be few?’ And he said to them, ‘Strive to enter in by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able’“ (Luke 13:23–24). Can we doubt that this really is the last word on our subject?' (Packer, JI 1973, 'The Way of Salvation: Part III: The Problems of Universalism', Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 130, no. 517, pp. 3-12.)
In summary, WillieH, your view only deals with some of the biblical data on salvation -- I pray that you will continue to study and consider ALL of Scripture and result in a balanced, correct view of the biblical teaching that all persons are elect in Christ except those who the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost, namely, those who ultimately reject or remain indifferent to whatever revelation God has given of himself to them whether in nature/conscience or in gospel presentation.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: How many Knees?
WillieH: Hello Spozz... grace be unto you...
You weary me... It is your vendetta to have vengence NOT to spread the Gospel... You may have it your way.. (even if it is wrong.. light will eventually come in your experience..), just as the Pharisees did not listen to the Message of Christ, so do you do the same...
In the end, all have not been introduced in this lifetime to Christ or the message of the Gospel... Will you burn them as well in your "holy" hell?
I say.. the Gospel (which means GOOD NEWS) can only be the Gospel if it contains GOOD NEWS ONLY.... EXCLUSIVELY... within that message is SALVATION... FORGIVENESS... RECONCILIATION... and PEACE....
Within your message is VENGENCE... RESPECT OF PERSONS... UNFORGIVENESS... AND NON RECONCILIATION... last of all TORMENT, ...UNMERCIFUL TORMENT (opposition of PEACE)..
Have it your way Spozz... let it be your message... also let it be your judgement...
As far as NONE GOOD, no not one... this DID NOT include CHRIST, for CHRIST was NOT CONCIEVED of Man (in SIN), but of the Holy Ghost...
Of course you would not consider this because your understanding is OF MAN, of the FLESH and NOT of the SPIRIT... You percieve in the Letter as did the Pharisees, as do most Christians... as did I, before I began to seek Him and HIS MESSAGE, not MINE, and certainly not the CHURCH's... As long as you remain tied to your religion, you will remain veiled... and your misrepresentatations will continue...
It is your purpose to argue against any point that does not align with EGW or SDA doctrine... NOT the Bible... I'll argue with you no further... have your religion... if it makes you happy... there is pleasure in sin for a season... enjoy it if you must...
I leave you to your self WILL and your DECISION for CHRIST... You better be right! And HOPE that it gives you consolation when you face God for preaching other than He has outlined... The GOSPEL...
And if by chance you wish to seek the GOSPEL and spread same... gimme a ring...
"PEACE..."
In JESUS ...WillieH...Servant...
spozzie wrote:
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hello to Tall & Spozz... grace be unto you both...
I have one reply for both of you... How many "knees" and "tongues" are disincluded in the following verses? (which GOD, in His Word, repeated 3 times!)
Is 45:23 / Rom 11:4 / Php 2:10.....
Hi WillieH ... grace be unto you, too.
Who is excluded from the following verses?
'As the Scriptures say,
“No one is good—
not even one.
No one has real understanding;
no one is seeking God.
All have turned away from God;
all have gone wrong.
No one does good,
not even one.” (Ro 3:10-12, NLT)
If these verses are true (and they are, because they are Scripture), then NOONE is excluded from this diagnosis. This means that Jesus must also be a sinner.
Before you attack me for blasphemy, let me make it clear that I don't agree with this conclusion. Jesus obviously was NOT a sinner. He was entirely perfect. However, using your hermeneutic of reading exactly what is in a verse and taking it exactly as it reads, then the conclusion about Jesus is inevitable.
We know that these verses CANNOT literally mean every single person who has ever lived. It is obviously a generalisation with Jesus being an exception. We know Jesus is an exception to this ABSOLUTE statement because of what we know about Jesus from other parts of Scripture. But we don't say Paul is wrong because we know that it is quite normal for humans to use the language of generalisation, knowing that there are exceptions to them.
The same can be said of the verses you cite. They are generalisations with exceptions. We know they are generalisations with exceptions because of other Scriptures which teach that some will be lost.
Regarding Isa 45:23: Read these words a bit later in Isaiah about God's enemies:
'“I have trodden the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were grapes. In my fury I have trampled my foes. It is their blood that has stained my clothes. For the time has come for me to avenge my people, to ransom them from their oppressors. I looked, but no one came to help my people. I was amazed and appalled at what I saw. So I executed vengeance alone; unaided, I passed down judgment. I crushed the nations in my anger and made them stagger and fall to the ground.”' (Is 63:3-6, NLT)
'Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: “You will starve, but my servants will eat. You will be thirsty, but they will drink. You will be sad and ashamed, but they will rejoice. You will cry in sorrow and despair, while my servants sing for joy. Your name will be a curse word among my people, for the Sovereign Lord will destroy you and call his true servants by another name. All who invoke a blessing or take an oath will do so by the God of truth. For I will put aside my anger and forget the evil of earlier days.' (Is 65:13-16, NLT)
Read on to the end of Isaiah; there is a lot more. Doesn't sound like the persistenly wicked nations survive to me!
Regarding Romans 11:4: Read the next verse:
'It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few are being saved as a result of God’s kindness in choosing them. ' (Ro 11:5, NLT)
Regarding Phillipians 2:10:
'Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he went, always pressing on toward Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?”
He replied, “The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, because many will try to enter, but when the head of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. Then you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I do not know you.’ You will say, ‘But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you. Go away, all you who do evil.’
“And there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets within the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. Then people will come from all over the world to take their places in the Kingdom of God. And note this: Some who are despised now will be greatly honored then; and some who are greatly honored now will be despised then.”' (Lk 13:22-30, NLT)
Someone asked Jesus whether only a few would be saved. His answer was, YES!
'... For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God’s written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law.' (Ro 2:5-12, NLT)
Quite clearly, God will give some eternal life but not those who persist in rejecting God.
'And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”' (Mt 25:46, NLT)
The nations are divided into sheep and goats... some to eternal life, some to eternal punishment.
Paul Helm has written that:
'Those who have held that all men will finally be saved have often believed that this follows logically from the character of God. They have held that since God is essentially and omnipotently loving it follows that he could not allow any human being to suffer an eternity of torments [I don't agree with Helm's view of eternal torment -- but that is beside the question] in hell. For such Christians there is a serious stumbling block, namely those sayings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels which unequivocally speak of an eternal separation between the saved and the damned. How often the sayings of Jesus say or imply this is open to dispute, but that some of them do (e.g. Matt 25:41, 46) is beyond question.' (Helm, P 1983, 'Universalism and the Threat of Hell', Trinity Journal, vol. 4, no. 1, pp. 35-43.)
James I Packer identifies three problems with universalism:
1) It ignores the biblical stress on the decisiveness of this life, and its decisions.
'Why did Jesus warn the Jews that the issue of unbelief would be that they would die in their sins (John 8:21, 24)? Why did He specifically warn against sin against the Holy Spirit, which has no forgiveness here or hereafter (Mark 3:28–29; Matt 12:32)? Why did He include in the story of Dives and Lazarus the detail about the great gulf fixed between those in joy and those in torment (Luke 16:26)? Why did He say of Judas: “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good it were for that man if he had not been born” (Matt 26:24)? None of these statements is explicable ,save on the basis that, for better or for worse, the choices and commitments made in this life have abiding consequences for the life to come, and he who does not lay hold of life here will certainly not enjoy it hereafter. And when Paul spells out the principle of retribution (Rom 2:5–11), and warns that we must all be made manifest before Christ’s judgment seat that each may receive the things done in the body, whether good or evil (2 Cor 5:10), and lays it down that what a man sows he will also reap (Gal 6:7), he is making the same point. “Second-chance” speculations, of whatever form, would seem to be absolutely excluded.'
2) It condemns the preaching of Christ and his apostles as either inept or immoral.
'Evangelicals have sometimes been censured for preaching hell and the wrath to come, and counselling their hearers to flee from it, and so avoid a lost eternity. But Jesus and the apostles did the same! Now, if universalism is true, and the founders of Christianity did not know it, their preaching stands revealed as ignorant and incompetent; and if universalism is true, and they did know it, their preaching stands revealed as bluff, frightening people into the kingdom by holding before them unreal terrors. I leave it to the universalists to choose which of these options to settle for. “We must preach hell,” says Ferré, “as having a school and a door in it.”; But why did not Jesus preach hell that way? The question presses.'
3) Universalism is rejected by the honest Christian conscience.
'Wrote James Denney:”I dare not say to myself that if I forfeit the opportunity this life offers I shall ever have another; and
therefore I dare not say so to another man”—nor, therefore, of another man. How can I without hypocrisy encourage in others a hope which my own conscience tells me would be a false hope if I relied on it?
Why do we smile at the story of the preacher who took as his text “How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?” (Heb 2:3) and announced two heads:(1) the greatness of Christ’s salvation and (2) advice on how to escape if we neglect it? The universalist, when you pin him down, is the preacher in that story! But conscience forbids us to go this way. “Believe on the Lord Jesus”—that is the way of salvation, and no form of post-mortem second-chance speculation (let alone the universalist, which is the most extreme and optimistic version of this fancy) can justify itself to a man’s conscience, any more than it can support itself from the Bible. To say this is not to slight the love of God or the victory of the cross, but simply to keep standing under the gospel in which this love and victory are made known, “from faith for faith” (cf. Rom 1:17)! And where else should one want, or allow oneself, to stand? “Some one said to him, ‘Lord, will those who are saved be few?’ And he said to them, ‘Strive to enter in by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able’“ (Luke 13:23–24). Can we doubt that this really is the last word on our subject?' (Packer, JI 1973, 'The Way of Salvation: Part III: The Problems of Universalism', Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 130, no. 517, pp. 3-12.)
In summary, WillieH, your view only deals with some of the biblical data on salvation -- I pray that you will continue to study and consider ALL of Scripture and result in a balanced, correct view of the biblical teaching that all persons are elect in Christ except those who the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost, namely, those who ultimately reject or remain indifferent to whatever revelation God has given of himself to them whether in nature/conscience or in gospel presentation.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: Re: How many Knees?
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hello Spozz... grace be unto you...
You weary me...
Perhaps you would not be so weary if you spent your energy discussing the actual topic rather than repeating irrelevant assertions that have nothing to do with the issue of universalism itself. How about actually dealing with the problems with universalism that were outlined in my post. I can only assume that you have no answer for the questions about universalism my post raised and, therefore, have to resort to the style of communication you engage in. Ad hominem arguments are not relevant in supporting your position nor deal with the problems with universalism.
Regarding whether or not my view constitutes good news or not:
It would seem to me that it is most definitely good news for someone to know that God loves them; that Christ died for them; that they have been reconciled to God; that they have been forgiven; that they are no longer under condemnation; that they have eternal life; and that they only way that they can be lost is if they reject the free gift of salvation. This sounds like good news to me!
Quote:
As far as NONE GOOD, no not one... this DID NOT include CHRIST, for CHRIST was NOT CONCIEVED of Man (in SIN), but of the Holy Ghost...
Ah! So you want me to accept the generalisations in the texts you cited without exception on the basis of a literalistic, proof-text interpretation, but you want to use a different hermeneutic when asked to read other texts in the same way?
Quote:
It is your purpose to argue against any point that does not align with EGW or SDA doctrine
What nonsense. This demonstrates just how out of touch you are with what I actually think. You sound like someone who has to throw abuse (albeit couched in biblical terms using the language of grace) just so you can win an argument and justify your own point of view. The only thing that concerns me in our discussion is whether universalism is biblical or not. I have NEVER mentioned EGW or SDA doctrine. ALL of the evidence I have offered you is biblical evidence as I understand it.
WillieH, this is a discussion board. The purpose is to explore ideas together. Your agenda seems to be to assert your view, run for cover, then bomb anyone who disagrees with you.
Quote:
Of course you would not consider this because your understanding is OF MAN, of the FLESH and NOT of the SPIRIT... You percieve in the Letter as did the Pharisees, as do most Christians...
Do you actually believe that shovelling out this sort of judgmental abuse is engaging in discussion? Instead of this sort of nonsense, you need to deal with the biblical evidence in discussing the issue. Until you do, you are not going to convince anyone of your point of view. One day, I hope you will come to realise that, if you wish to persuade, you need to be persuasive. If you continue to abuse others they will not wish to listen to you. I plead with you to sincerely look back over the way you speak to others and ask yourself whether you are sharing your understanding of the good news in a way which does the cause of Christ more harm than good.
Finally, can you tell me what is NOT good news about the point of view I hold regarding the gospel which states that:
All persons are elect in Christ except those who the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost, namely, those who ultimately reject or remain indifferent to whatever revelation God has given of himself to them whether in nature/conscience or in gospel presentation.
There is no reason for ANYONE to be lost unless they choose to reject God. That is good news!
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