Savior of ALL...

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: Hello to ALL...

There is a text to those that believe in selective Salvation, that some will be saved, others either LOST or DESTROYED (parenthetical comments mine):

(Vs 9)"This is a FAITHFUL SAYING (saying full of faith), and WORTHY of ALL ACCEPTATION (should be accepted by ALL).

(Vs 10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach (persecution) because we TRUST in the LIVING GOD, who IS the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ...ESPECIALLY those that BELIEVE.

(Vs 11) These things, COMMAND and PREACH." (1 Tim 4:9-11)

My question: If this passage is not speaking of EVERYONE, then, ...who are ..."ALL MEN", and who are ..."those that believe?" And this passage also INSTRUCTS to COMMAND and PREACH these things, ...this is NOT BEING DONE. Confused

One note: the word ALL in this verse (and the words ALL, WORLD and EVERY in the verses below) is PAS/Gk which means ALL! (Not disincluding any Total, the whole.. etc..)

also, If GOD does NOT intend on SAVING ALL MEN, please explain the following scriptures: John 3:17 / John 1:29 / Luke 19:10 / 1 Tim 2:3-4 / 1 John 4:14 / Phil 2:10-11 / 1 Cor 15:22 / Rom 5:8 / Rom 5:19 / 1 Tim 2:6 / Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 3:12-15 / Rom 5:20...

once you explain those, I will provide about about 90 others for your comments...

May the Lord open your eyes/ears to TRUTH, as opposed to CHURCH-fed DOCTRINE....

In JESUS ~~WillieH~~

tall73 · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96

An interesting topic. Do you see people who are not believers suffering at all before they enter into salvation?

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: Hi TALL73...

First, may I say that I don't have all the answers... no one does... But it is IMPERITIVE for a true believer to establish His/her faith by the study of the WORD of GOD only... for FAITH comes ONLY... via that process.. ALL other "faith" is a derivitive of Man, Satan, and deception.. If one truly seeks GOD in His Word.. HE SHALL FIND HIM... that said...

Is it written that we ARE to DRINK of the Cup that Christ drank of? YES! Where? Mark 10:39.. "ye shall INDEED DRINK of the Cup I drink of.." He was speaking of the suffering.. We JOIN Him in suffering..

Will non-believers suffer before entering into Salvation? Look around you! Do you see suffering in this world? Is that suffering limited to physical? Does it include mental, religious, and spiritual as well? To ALL these questions, the answer is YES...

The misunderstood "Lake of Fire" is not something that will DESTROY God's children (ALL MEN are God's Children), but to CORRECT them. Some will find this correction in this lifetime (accepting, and following Christ)... the destiny of others will be testified in DUE TIME.. (Lake of Fire)..

The Lake of Fire IS CHRIST.. "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE.." Well WillieH, what does He consume? 1 Cor 3:15.. "If ANY MAN's ..WORK shall be BURNED (consumed) he shall suffer loss, but HE, HIMSELF shall be SAVED, yet so as by FIRE."

You asked will non-believers suffer before entering into salvation... YES, as will BELIEVERS! In Luke 3:16, there is spoken words that few Christians grasp.. "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water, but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose.. HE shall BAPTIZE you with the HOLY GHOST and, ....FIRE!" Yes, we have been baptized with water, but NO MAN has yet been BAPTIZED with FIRE! This event is yet to happen, and ALL shall be tried (baptized) in FIRE... This FIRE shall be SPIRITUAL, not physical or literal.. And it shall in the SPIRIT, burn the things of unrighteousness (which are FLAMABLE), just as literal FIRE burns things that in the NATURAL WORLD are FLAMABLE... see 1 Cor 3:12-15 for a full description of this final event...

Suffering is something we enter into WITH our SAVIOR... it is something that is related to GLORY.. Not disgrace..

SALVATION is, in its entirety... to ALL... the GIFT OF GOD.. Nothing (did I say nothing?) ..yeah NOTHING we do can move us one inch closer to it.. NOTHING we do can move us one inch back from it... It is the GIFT of the Creator to all.. life everlasting... Our WORKS have nothing to do with Salvation... It is COMPLETELY the WORK of GOD...

What we DO effect in this life is ....THE REWARD!

About REWARDS..

(1 Cor 3:12) "If any mans WORK abide which HE has built thereupon (our deeds) he shall recieve a REWARD.." (thereupon what? - verse 11 - for other foundation can NO MAN lay than that is LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST)

(Rev 22:12) "Behold, I come quickly; and my REWARD is with me, to give EVERY MAN according as His WORK shall be..." (again, when Christ comes he brings the REWARD to EVERYMAN, according to each ones WORKS).

I hope this has clarified a few things concerning suffering and rewards..

Always LOOK to SCRIPTURE for your foundation, and NEVER build it upon what some MAN has told you (including me), study for YOURSELF, the WORD of GOD.. And place no confidence in any man's(woman's) writings.

In JESUS, ~~WillieH~~

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: It appears that by my name are the words.. Under Review..

Whattup wid dat? Confused

Are we not ALL, ...UNDER REVIEW? If for some reason I am shunned because I dont pass some clandestine review being done by SINFUL Men/Women, should I care? Shall I lose sleep or sorrow because some other SINFUL Humans have judged me?

I worship at the SDA church, but am NOT, and NEVER WILL BE ...a 7th Day Adventist.. as is the BIBLICAL designation for a Follower of JESUS...

...I am (and ALWAYS WILL BE) a DISCIPLE of CHRIST..

Under Review... I say, whoever posted this to my name:

YOU as well, ....are UNDER REVIEW! Idea

Let no man judge another, for with the same judgement one judges, ...ONE shall be JUDGED! Exclamation

And that is what I think of ...UNDER REVIEW... (How completely offensive and UNWELCOMING can this be?)

Fear is of the devil... If you are afraid of (little old) me, and therefore must place me "under review", then you show little faith in the Almighty... "For if GOD is for us, ..Who can be against us? ..eh?"

I speak from the Word of God ONLY... And will answer with Scripture, any questions that might be asked of my posts...

In JESUS ALONE, ~~WillieH~~

Rogue Physicist · sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 78

he who has the most textcolors wins.

It is wrong to assume all people will be saved, just as it is wrong to assume some are lost. Other scriptures warn of either extreme.

"If the righteous are scarcely saved, where stand the godless?"

"Let each seek his own salvation in fear and trembling."

Salvation, like love, can never be taken for granted.

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

RP...

explain the following scriptures in light of your cryptic statement.. it is wrong to ASSUME some will be lost or that all will be saved? What kind of hoo-haa DOUBLETALK is that? Do you see the Creator creating to destroy? I say a house divided against itself shall NOT STAND! Surely destruction is CLEARLY division from creation... Not so CRYPTIC as your statment... therefore...

WITHOUT ADDING words, or ASSUMING that other words are in these verses when they are NOT PLEASE EXPLAIN (parenthetical comments mine, and I ADD NOT...):

1 Tim 4:9-11 "this is a FAITHFUL (full of faith) saying and WORTHY of ALL ACCEPTATION (worthy to be ACCEPTED by ALL) for therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we TRUST in the Living GOD who is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ...SPECIALLY those THAT BELIEVE. These things COMMAND and TEACH." (Specially those that believe? command & teach?)

Heb 2:9 "But we see JESUS, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of DEATH, crowned with glory and honor that he, BY THE GRACE of GOD... should TASTE DEATH for EVERY MAN". (how many is EVERY?)

John 1:29 "..behold the LAMB of GOD that TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD." (how many sins did He die for? If ALL, then MOST of His sacrifice was IN VAIN if MOST are lost!)

John 3:17 (here we find out what GOD DIDN'T send JESUS to do) "For GOD sent NOT His Son into the World to CONDEMN the World..."

1 Cor 3:12-15 ..(12) ..ANY.. (13) ...EVERY.. (14) ..ANY.. (15) ...ANY... (what part of these scriptures disincludes ...any?)

Col 1:20 "and, ..having MADE PEACE through the BLOOD of HIS CROSS, by Him to RECONCILE ...ALL THINGS unto Himself, whether they be things in the Earth or things in Heaven." (what part of RECONCILE or ALL do we not understand.. eh?) (in verses 16-17 it tells us what these "all things" ARE, does it not?)

Rom 5:18 "therefore as by the OFFENSE of one (ADAM) judgement came upon ALL MEN to CONDEMNATION; even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE, the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto the JUSTIFICATION of LIFE" (How many condemned.. how many JUSTIFIED?)

Rom 5:19 "for as by ONE MAN's DISOBEDIENCE many were made SINNERS (how many?) so by the OBEDIENCE of ONE, shall many ((the same "many")be made RIGHTEOUS."

Rom 5:20 "Moreover, the law entered, that the OFFENSE might abound, but where SIN ABOUNDED... GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND" (In other words whereever evil appears in the circumstances of our human experience, much MORE GRACE APPEARS in the SAME circumstances)

There is NO ASSUMPTION of ALL in ANY of these and many other verses.. It is the short sight of The GOD of LOVE and His ALL ENCOMPASSING plan to SAVE His ENTIRE CREATION that is ASSUMPTION... these verses SHOUT of ALL... It even divides the "saved" into 2 groups.. one that BELIEVES and the other one that... ??? DOES NOT!!!

Was not the promise that the saved would be as the "sand of the sea" and as the "stars of the Heavens"? The ASSUMPTION of the salvation of some ...falls FAR SHORT of these Prophecies... FAR.. FAR.. SHORT! Exclamation

God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS.. and... He controls FAITH that any given person might have, He controls when and where any given person will be DRAWN to JESUS, He controls the STEPS of Man... He controls the HARDNESS or OBEDIENCE... (potter makes one vessel to honor, another to destruction) ...ALL working TOGETHER for TOTAL VICTORY.... for ALL!

And What is that VICTORY? "oh DEATH... where is thy sting? Oh Grave... where is THY VICTORY? In other words... DEATH and THE GRAVE get NO VICTORY! What does this mean to MORTAL MEN? ...immortality.. THE GIFT of GOD... ETERNAL LIFE..

Do you even think for a minute that GOD would create something that would spin out of His control? That He must resort to PLAN B because Adam and Eve weren't supposed to sin? They indeed were supposed to sin.. for in order to be made in GOD's Image and Likeness, Man HAD to KNOW... GOOD and EVIL.. just as GOD DOES! "...and the LORD GOD said.. behold, ..the MAN is become AS ONE OF US, ..to KNOW GOOD, and EVIL.." How did MAN do this? By His DISOBEDIENCE... Did this take GOD by SURPRISE? NOT! For the Lamb was SLAIN ...FROM ...The FOUNDATION of the WORLD! All was PREDESTINED to happen... We could not be true offspring and in true likeness of GOD unless this whole thing happened!

Is 45:7 "I form LIGHT and CREATE DARKNESS... I make PEACE and CREATE EVIL, ..I ...YHWH do ALL THESE THINGS.."

And what makes you better than me, or tom better than sue or President Bush better than a starving child in Zimbabwe? The answer is... NOTHING.. for GOD Loves ALL ...EQUALLY! and brings the gift EQUALLY... and NO MAN can make even the slightest BOAST concerning the GIFT.. for in its ENTIRETY it is the GIFT and WORK of GOD, not... NOT US! He is the AUTHOR, and FINISHER of our FAITH!

We have nothing to do with the gaining of salvation, for entirely it is a gift... we do not even CHOOSE it as some suppose.... That supposed "choice" was completely the work of THE ALMIGHTY... the FAITH to do so, provided by Him, the teaching of truth.. provided by Him, the sacrifice.. provided by Him, the drawing to Himself ...provided by Him.. all elements are PROVIDED BY HIM.. that NO FLESH may BOAST before HIM!

REMEMBER this RP... ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with GOD...

And this as well... our choices result in our works, and it is OUR WORKS that contain our REWARD.. and it is OUR WORKS that will be JUDGED... And the "wood, hay & stubble (works of an unrighteous nature) shall burn up, and the gold, silver and precious stones (WORKS of an righteous nature) shall survive the REFINING LAKE of FIRE! "Behold I come quickly, and MY REWARD is with me to give EVERY MAN according as His WORK shall be.." (Rev 22:12)

This whole set of verses, SHOUT of GOD's Sacrfice being ALL-ENCOMPASSING! If you can't see it, ..it's not your time... But YOUR TIME... WILL COME!

In JESUS ...WillieH

Rogue Physicist · sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 78

All I can say is that you have embraced Extreme Ultra-Calvinism,
which starting from a distortion of Paul by Martin Luther, led to the complete corruption and ruin of Christianity.

The doctrine you are espousing first resulted in the Protestant Anti-Christian spirit of "I can do anything I want, because I am saved, and I can't lose salvation, and I can't earn it, its a free gift. etc. so I can commit any sin I want to. I can eat anything I want. I can drink anything I want. I can do any drugs I want. I can be as selfish as I want. Because I am 'saved'.

The result is the POST-Christian Era. A place of unprecedented gluttonly, selfishness, depravity, war, murder, drug abuse addiction and slavery, and utter destruction of the REAL truth.

Good luck with your Calvinist pseudo-Christian doctrine that in the end turns Christianity completely inside out and makes a mockery of Sin, Repentance, Mercy and Salvation, as well as the command to go forth, preach the gospel and live it.

If Moses were to hear of Calvin he'd have him stoned to death for blasphemy. I stand with Moses, on the Lord's side.

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: Hello RP..

Just as I thought, your response would be a "religious" opinion, without (did I say without?) Yeah, ..WITHOUT addressing the post.. WITHOUT answers from scripture... Just a condemning religious reply..

Also, you have judged me without even knowing me... You have categorized me with CALVIN, which is ridiculous.. and know little of the true GOSPEL that is amply portrayed in the Word...

You also ASSUME that because one believes and aspires to preach that GOD can and WILL overcome the "will" of His Creation... that all those that believe such a doctrine will immediately go out and trample the Word and its contents... This is where you make your biggest mistake! I LOVE the Lord JESUS CHRIST, and can confidently tell you that He LOVES me as well! Not only that, ...but, the few verses that you DID NOT ANSWER, aren't even the foundation! They are the pre-cursor to it! After such an unspiritual reply I find it a waste to spend further time with you and your RELIGION (condemning beautiful Human souls for eating or drinking something YOU THINK they shouldnt? ...How pious are YOU? LOL )

It is because I have GOOD NEWS that you, and your BAD NEWS, ...few saved, ...ineffectual powerless doctrines concerning Salvation IS offended...

You have not answered the post... all you have done is proven that your UNSCRIPTURAL stand, STANDS on YOUR WORD, not GOD's.. and that YOU, within your RELIGION stand against the true GOSPEL..

Which BTW states that the saved will be as "the SAND OF THE SEA".. not as you believe: as the crumbs from a billion billion loaves... (Hos 1:10/Rom 9:27 and Rom 11:26 - ALL Israel SHALL - BE - SAVED)(Gen 15:5.. "Look now toward Heaven and tell the STARS if thou be able to NUMBER them and he said unto him, SO SHALL THY SEED BE)

You picture your little remnant (of which you, it goes without saying, conveniently include yourself..) as the saved... LOL... the saved CANNOT BE NUMBERED! It is not some paltry few! It it MAJESTIC in NUMBER to such a degree as CANNOT be counted!

God cannot be mocked... even though you have attempted to do so in your reply... "..makes a mockery of Sin, repentence, mercy and salvation as well as the command to go forth an preach the gospel and live it.." It is YOU that are mocking the scriptures.. I quoted them, and continue to quote them.... ...you mock them..

Then... in your self-righteousness, wish to stand "with Moses" and STONE ME for Blasphemy..

You are of the most Pharisee-ical persons I have ever encountered! I wish you NOT such a fate (stoning)...

On the contrary, ...as MY SAVIOR commanded... Love them that persecute you... forgive your enemies... (which by your doctrine, poses GOD as UNABLE to do... again Sad

)

Rogue Physicist? You might better label yourself by dropping the latter word...

To conclude, ..this is my wish for you...

May GOD forgive you... I forgive you...

In JESUS, ...WillieH

Rogue Physicist · sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 78

Try to understand my position.

When I first became a Christian, I also was confused about the issue of Salvation. Because those teaching me were selling a modern form of Western Protestantism. It did not matter where I went: Lutheranism and Calvinism was everywhere, and almost every Protestant denomination embraced some of their teachings or some form of them.

As I studied the bible, I became aware of the many passages that seemed to imply Universal Salvation, and naturally, understanding God to be a God of Love, and Omnipotent, I reasoned that God wanted to save everyone, and could certainly accomplish His will. Who can stand against God?

So for a long time I was convinced this was the interpretation that best fit the facts of scripture and my own spiritual reasoning. I was satisfied that this was the case, and just because no known church or individual I could find believed this doctrine, that didn't stop me from holding it as my main hypothesis.

As a matter of fact, even now I believe that most believers will go through a stage that involves holding this belief, as they study the scriptures and become more mature Christians.

Nonetheless, at the end of thirty-five years of bible study, I have come to the conclusion based upon a balanced interpretation of scripture and the wisdom acquired doing so, that it is quite possible that some people are 'lost'. They may have been created for that purpose (the education and refining of the true Children of God) or they may have chosen that path, because God has allowed them to, even against His own better judgement.

So at this time I can't say with confidence (like I could have ten or twenty years ago) that all people are saved. I don't pretend to have the arrogance to pronounce on such things as though I knew it with the certainty that you think you do, and that I used to believe myself.

"He who thinks he knows a thing knows nothing as he ought to know it."

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: Hello RP...

Thanks for your explanation... in the end... it will be as GOD has decided it will be no matter what you, or I, ...think or believe.

But Christ's mission was that He came to save the WORLD.. that He was sent to save the LOST (destroyed in GK)... (ALL are LOST)

I believe that God's kingship as Creator is DIVIDED against Himself if He in fact is a DESTROYER of His CREATION... That He, by living illustration (the existence of Mankind) has chosen to show the effects of trancending His Will (sin/evil/death) and will DESTROY those elements without DESTROYING those effected by them... shows Him to be LOVE... shows Him to be MERCIFUL.. shows Him to be ....FAIR and JUST... After all RP...

He brought us all forth BY HIS WILL ...we had no say...

He decided what GOOD and EVIL would be ...we had no say..

He decided what the results of evil/sin would be ...we had no say..

Adam and Eve blew it ...we had no say...

Cause and effect were under His direction ...we had no say...

If He chooses to burn us up ...we have no say...

If He chooses to save some ...we have no say...

If He chooses to SAVE ALL ...we have no say...

Where, when, to whom, we were born ...we had no say

He is LOVE... and because We LOVE... we have a say...

ALL PEOPLE that have ever lived, have LOVED someone, (most have loved MANY) all of these came forth from Him, HE is LOVE, ... LOVE NEVER FAILS! (1 Cor 13:8)

If you are a parent.. grandparent.. let me give you a couple of possible scenario's from GOD's perspective keep your own children/grandchildren in mind as you read...

HE has 10 children... 9 of them are home... ONE of them is LOST... what does HE do?

POSSIBLE SCENARIO ONE: Hey GOD.. your YOUNG CHILD is missing... "well - thats TOO BAD, ...its DAWN's tough luck... I TOLD HER that she shouldnt have wandered into the woods, its winter time for goodness sake.. if she gets killed or starves or is hurt... its her own fault.. she should've stayed home like the others.. by the way, where's my newspaper? Let's see whats on TV tonite..." Sad

POSSIBLE SCENARIO TWO: Hey GOD.. your YOUNG CHILD is missing... "What???? Where was she??? How long has she been missing???? Does anyone know WHERE she was last seen? (all this is EXCLAIMED with TEARS in His eyes, ...as He frantically puts on his winter coat & boots and RACES out into the SNOWSTORM...) He isn't seen for a week, but returns with her in his arms... tending to her... praying for her recovery... THANKFUL she is ALIVE! (notice no retribution for her disobedience.. no anger for wrong decisions and misjudgements... after all.. shes just a CHILD)

Which of these 2 scenarios is YOUR PICTURE of our SAVIOR? Confused

In JESUS, ...WillieH

Rogue Physicist · sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 78

You've modelled your story after the parable of the Lost Sheep.

However, there are sheep and goats.

And worse, there are sheep and wolves.

There are pearls and swine.

And there is the following parable:

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: Hi RP...

As is your "M.O.", you sidestep the issue...

My post was essentially about the Mission of Christ... (Was He sent to CONDEMN? Well, ...was he? If He wasnt, what was His MISSION? Did He accomplish it?)

Did you answer these questions... uh... NO! Mad

RP... you may cling to the religious spirit of Babylon.. that is your (so-called) "choice", but, ...lucky for you, the Savior will not leave you hanging... as is pictured in your viewpoint...

And as I stated... fortunately for all of us, ...we are not in YOUR hands, but HIS... His hands are composed of LOVE... and your perception of His character is totally of the opposite of LOVE... VENGENT... JUDGEMENT... TORMENT... FEAR....

I worship YHWH out of Father to son LOVE and Master to student/child AWE... which is the true form of FEAR... (I am NOT AFRAID of Him! How could I honestly LOVE someone I was AFRAID of? You grossly misunderstand biblical FEAR... And it DEEPLY effects your beliefs...)

I Certainly DO NOT hold the picture of Him that you and most "Christians" hold... The devil-decieved and worldly utilized ....BULLYING, ...INTIMIDATION... ...TYRANNY... of... here comes the BIG ONE... FRIGHTENING.. you into LOVING Him????? With such ENTICEMENTS as: HELLFIRE, WEEPING, WAILING, GNASHING of TEETH... ?? (You misunderstand spiritual things)

This approach NEVER realizes true LOVE... Nor does it even approach an understanding or recognition of TRUE LOVE..

To prove my point: (I'll leave out the Parables this time... okay?)

Go up to any female you SAY you LOVE, and, INTIMIDATE her, BULLY her, FRIGHTEN her... be a TYRANT.. with a "my way or the highway attitude" (which is how you picture GOD), ...and see how she will be DRAWN to you, ...how long her love lasts for you... NOT!

On the other hand.. take this approach (which is my take on how GOD views US) to the view/practice of LOVE and you will find it hard to argue that.. being KIND to her, RESPECTING her, CONSIDERING her weakness, SACRIFICE for her, deal with her in SOFTNESS, with MEEKNESS, GENTLENESS, and.... here comes the BIG ONE.... FORGIVENESS, do you think these will chase her away! No.. It WILL DRAW her!

In 1 Cor 13:1-13 ...the "Love" chapter... where do you find all this... VENGENCE, INTIMIDATION, BULLYING, FRIGHTENING, TYRANNY? ...you DON'T!

So... if GOD IS as you say... in the waiting room of TYRANNY, INTIMIDATION, etc... then I would say, that the description found in 1 Corinthians, of His Character is a charade... that it is false... and that HE indeed is NOT the LOVE that is described in this set of verses at all! to this I say, .....NOT! Mad

You talk of Salvation as if it were a possession? Find it? lose it? It is NOT a POSSESSION! It is an GIFT of GRACE (unmerited.. did I say unmerited? YES... UNMERITED FAVOR!) And the GIFT comes from the MOTIVATION and WORK of GOD, not resultant from your choice! Man had a choice long ago, and what he/she did with it, has brought us to where we are today... Once a gift is given.. is it ever taken back? I think not... Is this your practice at birthdays or Christmas?

I am not sure of where you are on the road of life, or what you have encountered concerning LOVE... but in my 60yrs of life... LOVE has always been a thing that has been treasured in the highest (mom/dad/wife/sis/kids/grandkids/friends etc) AND (a big AND) NONE of that LOVE has had the elements of VENGENCE, JUDGEMENT, INTIMIDATION, etc...

So a word to the wise.. just observe life a little, and you will eventually get the TRUE picture of GOD that HE intends ALL to have of Him...

And as you observe within your own kids, siblings, parents, etc.. you will see that you dont throw the BABY OUT with the BATH WATER! There is much wisdom in that old saying... be assured that GOD wont do it either!

A quick remark (hopefully you will have spiritual ears on...) about sheep & goats.. sheep & wolves.. (dont you see anything?) Wheat/tares; sheep/goats etc.. we ALL have these elements in us! This isnt speaking of 2 sets of people... it is speaking of 2 sets IN PEOPLE!

May the scales drop from your heart.. and your eyes...

In JESUS ....WillieH

Rogue Physicist · sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 78

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111

WillieH: Hello for the last time RP...

Beginning with your salutation (or lack thereof), you display throughout your post, the hardness of your heart...

In my post, I neither hinted or stated anything about teenaged females (what are YOU thinking?).... My analogy was the treatment of a Husband toward a wife (as Christ is to His bride)... Unfortunately your mind is so entangled in RELIGION that you cannot embrace spiritual things.. No more than a foot can think... or an armpit can see... Only the brain can think only the eyes can see... and only the HEART in a SOFTENED condition may recieve of SPIRITUAL things...

I shall not further waste time in your case... It is and always was in the Lords hands... I do however, pray that your (obviously blocked) ears to be opened by Him, and that you may gain the ability to answer questions instead of posing others as a reply...

In JESUS' capable hands I commend you, in prayer that He might send you a vision of His TRUE (AGAPE) LOVE, through the instrument He has designated, (which for YOU is obviously NOT this time, and obviously is NOT ME)

One last "obvious" comment... obviously you know nothing of the definition of LOVE (AGAPE) which, my friend (or is it enemy?), IS the description found in 1 Cor 13:1-13... That is described by you as full of DISCIPLINE, TORMENT, JUDGEMENT, etc... which is contrary to its TRUE meaning so PLAINLY outlined in the 13th chap of 1 Cor... Rather, it IS the outline provided you in my previous post as the TRUE description of LOVE...

In JESUS, ....WillieH