Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:17 pm Post subject: Understanding the Godhead
Quote:
Isn’t the state of being God held by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
The answer to that question is no. Only the Father is identified as God. There are many biblical references to "God, the Father". But note that there isn't even one biblical reference to "God, the Son", nor is there even one biblical reference to "God, the Spirit" - these two references that are quite commonly (albeit erroneously) used in Adventism. There is only one Being to whom the bible refers to and identifies as the one and only true God, and that is the Father (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6).
On the other hand, Jesus, has the qualities of divinity as a result of being God's Son and inheriting all of His divine attributes which includes the most "excellent" name of "God" (Hebrews 1:4). Jesus can be rightfully called "God" by virtue of these facts. However, He is not the Source of all things, as is God, the Father and cannot be identified as the eternal "God" in that manner and context.
The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of God". It is the personal presence of God, the Father in an invisible way. The Spirit of God is a person because God is a person. The Spirit of God is God Himself in an invisible way. The Holy Spirit isn't a separate and distinct and individual God apart from God the Father.
The bible says that there is one God, the Father who is the source of all things and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things exist:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. all, and in you all.
God the Father is the Source through whom all things exist, including the existence of His Son. Christ, His Son is the agent by whom all things exist.
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 7:01 am Post subject: The Biblical Truth About God And Christ
Quote:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
The original Greek reads like this:
"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word."
The "Word" is described as God but is NOT identified as God. That's the "subtle" difference that trinitarians forget or decline to acknowledge.
Jesus is God by virtue of His literal Sonship to the Father. This does not make Him the Godhead, i.e., head-God. That belongs to the Father.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Notice the distinction the bible places between "Christ" and "God". They are NOT the same persons. Christ is NOT equal to God in authority. He is equal in nature and character, being God's Son, but not equal in authority as the above verse plainly declares.
However, Christ is the second person of the Godhead, i.e., the second manifestation of the person of God. Jesus is the "express image" of the Father's person. He is an exact reflection and reproduction of God, the Father.
When you get the word Godhead figured out, you’ll need to learn grammar and understand that “the second person of the Godhead” doesn’t mean “the second manifestation of the person of God.”
Also, you continually deny many things I don’t affirm. People reading our exchange might assume that your many protestations are arguments against my beliefs. It makes me think you’re a deceiver.
I can’t possibly believe that you have any insight into Greek because I’m persuaded that you have problems with English. The word “Godhead” doesn’t mean “head-God.”
Quote:
When you get the word Godhead figured out, you’ll need to learn grammar and understand that “the second person of the Godhead” doesn’t mean “the second manifestation of the person of God.”
Quote:
Also, you continually deny many things I don’t affirm. People reading our exchange might assume that your many protestations are arguments against my beliefs. It makes me think you’re a deceiver.
Again, one last time - do you want to have a real discussion on this topic or is it your intention to hurl insults of a personal nature? If its the latter, then I will withdraw myself from such meaningless conversation.
I'll be happy to reply if and when I see you actually addressing the issues brought up in this topic.
I apologize for all the insults. Your many protestations against beliefs not held by me persuades me that you’re the one who doesn’t want to have a real discussion.
Mickey wrote:
I'll be happy to reply if and when I see you actually addressing the issues brought up in this topic.
I apologize for all the insults. Your many protestations against beliefs not held by me persuades me that you’re the one who doesn’t want to have a real discussion.
Apology accepted. My "many protestations" as you put it that are not in common with your beliefs is not an indication of me not wanting to discuss the topic. On the contrary, bringing up those points is an indication of my willingness to discuss the topic and share the way I see it. Or do you define a "real discussion" to mean talking about only things that you agree with?
Eugene wrote:
Quote:
I’m frustrated with your continued misuse of the word ‘Godhead’ while not addressing my post on the meaning of the Greek word translated ‘Godhead’ in Colossians 2:9.
This is a discussion. No need to be frustrated. It is your perception that I misuse the word Godhead. As touching Colossians 2:9, Godhead means:
deity, the state of being God, Godhead
The Father is the Godhead. The Son is a reflection and "express image" of the Father (The Godhead). The Holy Spirit is the personal presence of the the Father(The Godhead). The Father is "above all"(Ephesians 4:6). All is OF the Father. Without the Father, there would be no Son of God and no Spirit of God. Therefore, the Godhead is God the Father - for all things are OF Him (1 Corinthians 8:6).
I'm not misuing the word. Its the trinity proponents that misuse the word and give it the meaning of a committee or corporation as Historic Adventist well said.
But if we are wrong and Godhead does in fact mean a conglomeration of or a group of deities, then, please show us this as truth if it is truth. If this cannot be proven as truth, then it's not appropriate to call our view a heresy.
I know where you're coming from, Eugene. Since the word Godhead means "deity" or "state of being God" and you consider the Father to be God and the Son to be God and the Holy Spirit to be God, then they must make up the Godhead. So, then the real question is this, brother. Is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit a unity of three co-eternal self-existent deities in their own rights individually? Perhaps I'll be better able to understand you if you provide me a YES or NO answer to that question.
Now, please, just discuss and answer the question and no more unChristlike remarks, OK? Thanks.
A “real discussion” isn’t two ships passing in the night.
Mickey wrote:
As touching Colossians 2:9, Godhead means:
deity, the state of being God, Godhead
Be careful. The English word ‘deity’ has different meanings and the actual Greek word doesn’t encompass them all. www.dictionary.com has the following definition for ‘deity:’
Quote:
de·i·ty n. pl. de·i·ties
1. A god or goddess.
2.
a. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.
b. Deity God. Used with the.
If you compare this with the thorough definition of the Greek word so carefully presented to you on page 2 of the Trinity or non-Trinity? thread, then it’s clear that only definition 2(a) is applicable to Colossians 2:9 in this case.
I repeat: The Greek word translated ‘Godhead’ in Colossians 2:9 means “the essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.”
de·i·ty
n. pl. de·i·ties
1. A god or goddess.
2.
a. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.
b. Deity God. Used with the.
You say that 2a is most applicable respecting Colossians 2:9. OK, I would agree with that. But please note that it still does NOT make Christ the Godhead. Colossians 2:9 simply states that Christ has all the fulness of the Godhead.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The above verse says that in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. It doesn't say that He IS the Godhead. For He is not. Christ possesses this fulness of Godhead because it was given unto Him by His Father - The Godhead!
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Its the fulness of the Father(the Godhead) that dwells in the Son. And its by the Father's permission and pleasure that it is so.
The most applicable definition of Godhead in its absolute form would be 2b and that's exactly the way its presented in the original language in John 1:1.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Mickey wrote:
The above verse says that in Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead. It doesn't say that He IS the Godhead. For He is not. Christ possesses this fulness of Godhead because it was given unto Him by His Father - The Godhead!
Is that not saying Christ is a derived "god" He is not God Himself?
He is but a "vessel" into which "godlikeness" has been poured.
Is this not denying that Christ IS God?
WHAT DOES 'GODHEAD" mean?
The "suffix" "head" is better understood in the modern language as "hood" or state of being. Like in "fatherhood" = the state or quality of being a father.
"motherhood" the state and quality of being a mother.
Thus GODHEAD-- or "GODHOOD" is the state and qualty of being GOD.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
For in Christ dwells the full quality of being GOD.
Or as EGW puts it: BT.1906-03-01.001 (Also in Ev. 614-615)
Quote:
The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person."
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
The FATHER is pleased that CHRIST is fully God!
Contrast that with statements :
Exodus 34.14
"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"
Duet. 6.14-15
"Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
For the LORD thy God is a jealous God"
Deut. 4.35
The LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
1 Sam. 7.22
Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee,
Is. 45.5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:
________________
Now the texts get even more interesting:
Jude 1.25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Samuel 22.3
The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my Saviour; thou savest me from violence.
Isaiah 43.3
For I am the LORD (JEHOVAH) thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:
Isaiah 43.11
I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no Saviour.
Isaiah 45:21-22
There is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Hosea 13.4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me.
Luke 2.11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
John 4:42
Know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Phil 3:20
We look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
---------------------------
There is ONE GOD, ONE DEITY
yet three persons.
Jesus said, "I and my Father are ONE" "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 10:30, 14:1)
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