A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Isaiah 9:6
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
We are not to worship anyone but God
Revelation 22:8-9
“I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, ‘Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!’ ”
Jesus received and accepted worship
Matthew 14:33
“Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’ ”
Matthew 28:9
“Suddenly Jesus met them. ‘Greetings’, he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.”
Matthew 28:17
“When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.”
Luke 24:52
“Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.”
John 9:38
“Then the man said, ‘Lord, I believe,’ and he worshiped him.”
John 20:27-29
“Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’ ”
Hebrews 1:6
“And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’ ”
The Father is the only true God
“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone knows this.” 1 Corinthians 8:6-7.
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3).
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17).
The Father is greater than Jesus
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).
“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:27-29.
The Father is a God above Jesus
Ephesians 1:17
“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.”
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
1 Peter 1:3
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
Ephesians 1:3
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.”
2 Corinthians 1:3
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort.”
2 Corinthians 11:31
“The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.”
Romans 15:6
“so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Hebrews 1:9
“You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
There’s a clear distinction between Jesus and God
1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
1 Corinthians 11:3
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
Footnote
The Midheaven and High Mountains forums were created for the purpose of advancing clearly stated Bible truth. Wrangling isn’t permitted here. You may ask questions. Dissenting opinions can be freely discussed and argued in The Plain of Megiddo Forums.
Wow! All I can say in response to your post, Eugene is this: AMEN! What a breath of fresh air - to actually see the biblical truth as you posted it and FINALLY to see someone address John 17:3 directly and speak the truth exactly as the words of Jesus say it, that God, The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD! Amen!
Posted: Mon May 27, 2002 2:36 pm Post subject: How infinite is Jesus Christ?
Mickey,
Permit me to recount an unusual event.
I knew from my mathematical training that mathematicians have a whole discipline called set theory where it’s proven that infinities come in different sizes. (The size of an infinite set is a special rank called a cardinal number). I thought that the Father would rank like the set of all sets. (This object is so indescribable that all the rules of logic break down). Jesus could easily be infinite, not equal to the Father, and have an understandable rank like one of the infinite cardinal numbers. I then received an unusually strong flash of insight. The Father knows the end from the beginning but the Son only knows all possible futures with perfect comprehension plus all that the Father reveals to Him. I then remembered Revelation 1:1:
Quote:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John. Rev 1:1.
For centuries there has been an unsolved yet troubling mystery in the Bible. At the same time there has been a great confidence that no understanding of the mystery could be achieved. The mystery is that the Bible has three contradictory definitions of God:
God is
1. The Father (1 Corinthians 8:6-7, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 1:17).
2. The Son (Isaiah 9:6, John 8:58, Hebrews 1:7-8).
3. The Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17,18).
The mystery deepens because the Bible insists that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:21-22, Mark 12:28,29). The mystery is a good one; it is clear that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate persons. …We only need one Scripture to prove this. Jesus said he would return to the Father and send the Spirit (John 16:5,7,8).
The answer to the ancient mystery, I believe, is to regard the Father as truly God and the Son of God and the Spirit of God as perfect representatives of the one true God.
How perfectly does the Son represent the Father? What is the will of the Father in the way we receive His Son?
The Father has made the exalted nature of Christ fully known. The Son should be regarded as equal with the Father. Their natures are the same. The word of the Son is to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. Wherever the presence of His Son is, it is as if the Father is present. To worship the Son is to worship the Father. The Son represents the revealed will and mind of God so perfectly that He is rightfully called the word of God (John 1:1).
I noticed that in your May 26 post, where you seem to have cut and pasted from the link you gave on How is Jesus Equal to G_d (or something like that), that you left out the section of Jesus being subordinate to the Father.
I know that Yahshua willingly subordinated Himself to the Father during His earthly walk. Do you believe Yahshua was subordinate to the Father in His pre-incarnation days?
If you answer in the affirmative, does this mean a dissention in the G_dhead, in which Yahshua forwent His honest opinion and acquiesced to the Father's opinion, with which He did not agree?
If both are divine, and divinity means omniscience, among so many other sovereign attributes, how could one be wrong, or not as right as the other?
An this completely leaves out the question of the Holy Spirit's place in the G_dhead.
Later. Looking for your reply with anticipation.
Steve, for whom Yahshua died, rose and is soon coming again! :D
Affirmative, I believe that Yahshua was subordinate to the Father in His pre-incarnation days.
You’ve said “divinity means omniscience.” Are you giving me another example of a ‘doubtful disputation’? :) Please consider the question “How infinite is Jesus Christ?” and my post on this thread, dated Mon May 27, 2002 2:36 PM.
What is the Holy Spirit’s place in the G_dhead? The Spirit of the Prophets (Matthew 3:16, Romans 8:9, Philippians 1:19) is subject to the Prophets (Matthew 12:28, John 16:7, Acts 2:17, Galatians 4:6). Thus, if you mean rank, it’s clear that there’s a hierarchy in the G_dhead. If you mean more than rank, I would have say that www.everythingimportant.org/Godhead is incomplete; I have yet to finish my great compilation. Which texts do you believe are the most important to help clarify “the Holy Spirit’s place in the G_dhead”?
Was there dissention in the G_dhead? Are you commenting on my use of Luke 22:42? “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
I believe there was a struggle in the Godhead. I see two definable interpretations of the anguish that Christ suffered in the garden of Gethsemane, but I’m open to hear other opinions.
Christ’s mission as a teacher in our cold and thankless world was accomplished. He was about to be delivered into the hands of blind, bigoted, faithless priests and elders, to endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; He was about to suffer dreadful hours of agony on a cross to be mocked with vulgar jests and insulting derision. He was to die the cruelest and most horrible of deaths. This was the Father’s will. Three times the Son of God pleaded for a way of escape. Three times the Father said no.
Option A: The struggle in the G_dhead is between God letting man reap the just punishment for his sins, a real option, and the love of God and His willingness to die for us and to pay the infinite price required for our salvation. It says that the price paid for our redemption was of infinite weight; Hence God loves us in infinite measure. We are of infinite worth! ...Briefly stated, the struggle is that Christ need not have died but He did so to save us.
Option B: God must forgive sin because it is in His very nature to do so. He has no choice. Salvation, therefore, is not really a gift and a struggle in the G_dhead can only reflect a difficulty God has in overcoming His reluctance to do what He must do! He was only compelled to die for us because it was the loving thing to do. He really didn’t want to.
I like this view of option A:
“The awful moment had come—that moment which was to decide the destiny of the world. The fate of humanity trembled in the balance. Christ might even now refuse to drink the cup apportioned to guilty man. It was not yet too late. He might wipe the bloody sweat from His brow, and leave man to perish in his iniquity. He might say, Let the transgressor receive the penalty of his sin, and I will go back to My Father. Will the Son of God drink the bitter cup of humiliation and agony? Will the innocent suffer the consequences of the curse of sin, to save the guilty? ... Now the history of the human race comes up before the world’s Redeemer. He sees that the transgressors of the law, if left to themselves, must perish. He sees the helplessness of man. He sees the power of sin. The woes and lamentations of a doomed world rise before Him. He beholds its impending fate, and His decision is made. He will save man at any cost to Himself. He accepts His baptism of blood... He will not turn from His mission. He will become the propitiation of a race that has willed to sin. His prayer now breathes only submission: ‘If this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done.’ ” The Desire of Ages, pp. 690-691.
The answer to the ancient mystery, I believe, is to regard the Father as truly God and the Son of God and the Spirit of God as perfect representatives of the one true God.
The Bible is clear that Jesus is God: "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
Jesus is not merely a representative of God but TRUE GOD himself.
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:22 am Post subject: A Gospel Based Alternative to Trinitarianism
Greetings LongWay,
Welcome to this forum.
Quote:
Jesus is not merely a representative of God but TRUE GOD himself.
Christians who sincerely trust in Jesus have been justified (declared righteous) by God by virtue of the imputed merits of Christ’s righteousness. This is TRUE justification, not a sham pretense. Consequently—legally—we are perfect in Christ because God declares it to be so—but it’s simultaneously true that we are still sinful.
The concept that I’m teaching in this thread—the radical paradigm that I just cited precedent for—is that the Son is actually subordinate to His Father but that the Father declares Him to be equal nevertheless.
As I have said,
Quote:
The Father has made the exalted nature of Christ fully known. The Son should be regarded as equal with the Father. Their natures are the same. The word of the Son is to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. Wherever the presence of His Son is, it is as if the Father is present. To worship the Son is to worship the Father. The Son represents the revealed will and mind of God so perfectly that He is rightfully called the word of God (John 1:1).
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: How infinite is Jesus Christ?
Eugene Shubert wrote:
Mickey,
Permit me to recount an unusual event.
I knew from my mathematical training that mathematicians have a whole discipline called set theory where it’s proven that infinities come in different sizes. (The size of an infinite set is a special rank called a cardinal number). I thought that the Father would rank like the set of all sets. (This object is so indescribable that all the rules of logic break down). Jesus could easily be infinite, not equal to the Father, and have an understandable rank like one of the infinite cardinal numbers. I then received an unusually strong flash of insight. The Father knows the end from the beginning but the Son only knows all possible futures with perfect comprehension plus all that the Father reveals to Him. I then remembered Revelation 1:1:
Quote:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John. Rev 1:1.
Hi eugene,
Maybe these passages can give meaning to your math insights...
The Father is God
Jesus is the son of God
The Father is unbegotten
Jesus is the only begotten
The Father is the Speaker
Jesus is the eternal word of God
The Father of Lights
Jesus is the light of the word
The Father of spirits
the Holy Spirit going forth from the father
Father, the source of everything
Jesus everything thru him
The father sits
Jesus leans at the bosom of the father
The Father is the one true God
The Father called his son God.
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: Is there a counterfeit Trinity then?
People seem to have great difficulty believing the Trinity because it apparently "came from" Rome. I have never checked whether that's true BUT
Do we have difficulty accepting that there is a false trinity? The dragon, the beast and the false prophet?
Why would Satan counterfeit something which doesn't exist? _________________ John
There isn't any single entity in the book of Revelation that represents the union of the dragon, beast and false prophet.
I think it's obvious that a great triumvirate of evil rules spiritual Babylon. You probably agree: Babylon is really just a counterfeit of the kingdom of God (the church) and is not a symbol of a counterfeit trinity. So it's impossible to say anything about the true Trinity by looking at the counterfeit.
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Is there a counterfeit Trinity then?
Eugene Shubert wrote:
SlightMiracle wrote:
People seem to have great difficulty believing the Trinity because it apparently "came from" Rome.
That might be the case for some persons but their absurdly unbiblical arguments aren't accepted in our midheaven forums.
Can some piece of information be fact if it is not necessarily recorded in the scriptural canon? Is it not a fact that the Athanasian Creed was enforced by the papal bull? You, of all people, should realize this eugene.
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Is there a counterfeit Trinity then?
WITL wrote:
Can some piece of information be fact if it is not necessarily recorded in the scriptural canon?
Sure, the Pythagorean theorem is factual but is not mentioned in the Bible.
WITL wrote:
Is it not a fact that the Athanasian Creed was enforced by the papal bull?
No. The Athanasian Creed was never enforced by a papal bull or recognized by an ecumenical council as an official creed of the Catholic Church. Suppose it was. The Athanasian Creed is false. So what's your point?
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in
