A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Savior of ALL... Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4           Forum Index -> The Dragon, Beast and False Prophet Convention Center View previous topic :: View next topic   Will GOD only save some, ...or as the Word says ...ALL? ALL...  16%  [ 1 ] SOME...  50%  [ 3 ] DONT KNOW...  33%  [ 2 ] Total Votes : 6 Author Message spozzie Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: No quotes... Speak for yourself... from YOUR OWN researc WilliH WillieH wrote: WillieH: Hi Spozz.. I do NOT accept your post, because it is NOT YOU speaking.. do your own research of the scriptures, prove me wrong with your own research and I will at least, honor the investment of your time by reading your post... I'm sorry to have to be so blunt. But I think it is time to speak plainly. This is a pathetic copout. You, yourself, posted a very, very lengthy article on the destruction of the wicked inviting Tall73 to read it. Now you won't read and respond to a few paragraphs from someone other than me? It is only arrogance that refuses to read what other Christians have to say on a subject. I have done my own research on universalism. But normal, common discourse permits people to quote others who may say something in a powerful way. The quote I provided is consistent with what I believe. And you will notice from my inserted comment stating that I believe in annihilation of the wicked that I do my own thinking and don't just parrot what others have said. Who has given you the right to construct a rule that says noone is allowed to post a quote from another author? You, of course, have the right to refuse to read anything you like. But your refusal to do so demonstrates a complete arrogance and disdain for those who may have more experience or insight than you. Quote: I see you cannot speak for yourself... Your faith is in the hands of another man... I can stand about my beliefs without quoting reasons or scriptures from another man... Who are you to judge where my faith resides? It is completely illogical to conclude that my faith is not in Christ just because I quote another person's thoughts. Are you so arrogant that you think that you can arrive at truth completely alone without dialogue with the rest of the Christian community of faith? Obviously so, because the tone of your posts is not conversational or collaborative exploration of the Bible with fellow believers on a faith journey. You clearly have decided that you have arrived at the truth on your own and you are going to hand it down from your personal Mt Sinai and call down the wrath of God on anyone who disagrees with you -- so much for your alleged emphasis on grace and mercy! Quote: If you wish to speak against the Salvation of All... you stand before God for it alone, ...you dont get to hold hands with this person you have herein quoted... What a bizarre response! Why don't you start living according to your self-professed universalism. If everyone is saved, then surely I will 'get to hold hands with this person'. If, as you say, I wish to speak against the salvation of all, then it is because the Bible teaches that there will be some who will be lost despite the fact that God desires that everyone be saved and has provided the free gift of salvation for every single person. The Bible teaches that there will be some who, if they so choose, will be lost. Did you know that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about heaven? Can I suggest that, instead of picking phrases here and there that, at first glance, appear to support your point of view, that you read the Bible in big slabs so that you can see what the Bible, as a whole, teaches on the subject of salvation? And pray that God will give you a humble, teachable spirit. And ask God to give you an attitude of respect for your conversation partners. Quote: Most theologians resort to quoting each other so that they can, as you have here with Tal, pat each other on the back... Frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about. If I agree with Tall73 I will say so. If I disagree with him, I will say so. Quite clearly, you have not read very widely in the theological literature (understandable if you think that you shouldn't read and/or respond to anything other than your own study). If you did so, you would see that many theologians disagree with and argue with their fellow theologians. In fact, if you read more widely than you appear to have done so, you would, perhaps, discover a more reasonable and constructive way of discussing things with others. Quote: JESUS stood against such as you ALONE... and it does not surprise me that you would gather like of your kind to "gang up" on me.... This demonstrates where you are coming from... You think that, because I quote other authors, that it is 'ganging up' on you -- as if I would think that I could win an argument by numbers. Quite obviously, you do not read the content of these quotes... but as soon as you see them, you reject them. The appropriate way of proceeding is to read them for their content and to respond to the subject matter. This you quite clearly are either unwilling or unable to do. It shows a weakness in your thinking. And what do you mean when you say that 'JESUS stood up against such as [me] ALONE...' Do you mean Jesus was alone, or that I am alone? Whatever you mean, you are quite clearly suggesting that I am like someone whom Jesus was against -- therefore, you must be implying that I am a Pharisee or something. So, there you go again, judging me. May I point out a few passages of Scripture (the results of my own research, by the way): 'Soon—and it will not be very long—the wilderness of Lebanon will be a fertile field once again. And the fertile fields will become a lush and fertile forest. In that day deaf people will hear words read from a book, and blind people will see through the gloom and darkness. The humble will be filled with fresh joy from the Lord. Those who are poor will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. Those who intimidate and harass will be gone, and all those who plot evil will be killed. Those who make the innocent guilty by their false testimony will disappear. And those who use trickery to pervert justice and tell lies to tear down the innocent will be no more.' (Is 29:17-21, NLT) God clearly does not like intimidation and harassment. '“Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.' (Mt 7:1-5, NLT) '“Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. Stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. ... ' (Lk 6:37, NLT) 'Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor?' (Jas 4:11-12, NLT) No doubt, you will turn these verses back on me and say that I am judging you. However, that is not what I am doing. I am trying to get through to you that the way you communicate with me (and others) is judgmental and destructive. Quote: In the end UNIVERSALISM is NOT a religion, it is NOT a DENOMINATION it is VERY FEW... much as the number Christ said would hear His words in the last days... So now you legitimate your view by saying it is only believed by a few? Since when is truth determined by numbers -- large or small? The above is a somewhat lengthy response to your last message to me. Notice that none of it is directly responding to anything you said about universalism. This demonstrates that you constantly stray from the issue and personalise your communication by attacking your correspondents. Quote: WillieH: Hi Tal... First, thank you for doing as I requested... it was the honorable thing, and I applaude your sense of conversation... I will therefore respond to this latest post.... I also applaud Tall73's sense of conversation. Please learn from his approach! Quote: Might I say that my conversation with Spozz is my conversation with Spozz... You guys seem to like to tag-team me, and I, whether you receive my words or not, am free to decide if and how I shall respond and won't be dictated to by you OR him, as to how I respond to YOU or HIM... I think Tall73 was asking you to be consistent. Quote: I don't even know why I am bothering to explain this to you since this WAS NOT done in my conversation with YOU.... Perhaps you don't realise that this is a PUBLIC discussion forum. If you want a private conversation, perhaps you should communicate privately. The sort of cross-communication we are engaging in is quite common in public discussion forums. Imagine we are sitting in a lounge room together having a conversation. If someone else says something I agree with, why shouldn't I say so? And why shouldn't I add a comment that supports, enlarges, or even contradicts what the other person has said? The only reason someone would be concerned about this would be if they took an adversarial approach to conversation and construed it as a numbers war -- truth by majority vote. Now, to the issue of universalism. Please answer these questions if you are capable of doing so: 1) How is universalism consistent with humans being created in God's image? 2) If you believe in universalism, how can you justify God being a cosmic rapist? 3) How is God consistent with his holiness and justice if God forces a wicked person to be saved, against their will? 4) How are your interpretations of the passages of Scripture you quote consistent with the contexts in which they appear? 5) How to you answer the explicit teaching of Scripture that some will be lost because they persist in rejecting God? 6) How is the view of universalism anything other than wishful thinking? If you do not have any answers, be honest enough to say so... Back to top   '); //--> spozzie Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:16 am    Post subject: A decisive verse against universalism I address this post to any members of this PUBLIC forum who wish to comment on it. Here is a passage of Scripture that conclusively proves that universalism is a false doctrine. I have quoted the NASB (for its word-for-word translation) and highlighted the pertinent phrases: 'We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.' (2 Th 1:3-10, NASB) Paul teaches that: 1) It is just of God to repay affliction with affliction. 2) God is described as dealing out retribution. 3) This retribution is to those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel. 4) The penalty is eternal destruction. 5) The location of this eternal destruction is away from the presence of the Lord. A number of terms need to be explored: 1) retribution 2) eternal destruction Retribution This word translates the Greek word ekdikēsis. Strongs defines this word as 'a revenging, vengeance, punishment.' Note well that it is not rehabilitative in nature, as the following verses make clear. Eternal destruction The word eternal is a translation of the Greek aiōnios. Strong (1996) provides three definitions of aiōnios: Quote: 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease, everlasting. All of these definitions refer to time without end. Some may argue that this is not necessarily the case because there are passages where the word is used for the beginning of time which, of course, is not endless. However, it is interesting to note that, in the very next chapter (2:16) Paul refers to 'Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace...' The same word for 'eternal' is used here (aiōnios) for the comfort brought by God. Unless we are prepared to argue that the comfort is only for a limited time, then the word must mean timeless. So it would seem reasonable to conclude that Paul, if he is using the word consistently within a few paragraphs, would have meant timeless in 1:9. Another piece of evidence for seeing aiōnios as meaning eternal is the meaning of the word it modifies -- destruction. Destruction translates the Greek olethrios, olethros. Here is another place in the NT where this word is used: 'I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.' (1 Co 5:5, NASB) Surely Paul would not want this person to have a temporary destruction of his flesh. The word must mean permanent destruction, ie, annihilation. So 2 Thess 1:3-10 teaches, with no ambiguity, that God will take vengeance on those who do not know God or refuse to obey him by permanently destroying them. These verses ring the death knell on universalism. No doubt some will argue that this is hardly good news. But good news is only good news if it relieves something negative. And the good news is that noone needs to suffer this fate. Christ has died for all humanity, has reconciled all humanity to himself, has forgiven the sins of all humanity. This is the good news -- that eternal life is for all. But God, in God's sovereignty, has decided to give humanity the ability to choose whether or not they want to have this eternal life. If not, they can choose to reject it. It would not be good news if God was a cosmic rapist, forcing people to love him and obey him. It is good news because God has done everything required to save every person. This is the gospel message. It is up to each individual to not reject this amazing salvation! Back to top   '); //--> WillieH Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: No quotes... Speak for yourself... from YOUR OWN researc WillieH: Hi Spozy.. Quote: I'm sorry to have to be so blunt. But I think it is time to speak plainly. This is a pathetic copout. You, yourself, posted a very, very lengthy article on the destruction of the wicked inviting Tall73 to read it. Now you won't read and respond to a few paragraphs from someone other than me? WillieH: The study I posted was about the MISTRANSLATED word APOLLUMI.. which is pivitol in understanding the mission and plan of Christ... It is where most stumble concerning the final destiny of the Human race as a whole... The words you posted were an attempt at blasting UNIVERSALISM which is what I believe is the plan... there is a difference... to point out a possible stumbling block as opposed to attempting to debunk a belief system... That is why I have chosen not to respond to it... I have read several things that have been written opposing Universalism... they are filled with hot air... unscriptural... built upon mistranslation... etc... If you wish to read further go to one of the King sites of Babylon ...CARM... they have much to say about Universalism in the negative... it should feed your fire... Quote: It is only arrogance that refuses to read what other Christians have to say on a subject. I have done my own research on universalism. But normal, common discourse permits people to quote others who may say something in a powerful way. The quote I provided is consistent with what I believe. And you will notice from my inserted comment stating that I believe in annihilation of the wicked that I do my own thinking and don't just parrot what others have said. Who has given you the right to construct a rule that says noone is allowed to post a quote from another author? WillieH: I have contructed no rules whatsoever... grow up... I have merely stated that I will not react to words that are not from YOUR HEART and YOUR EXPERIENCE... dont tell me... so & so said that Universalism is of the devil and expect me to swallow it... how simple is your thinking... Quote: You, of course, have the right to refuse to read anything you like. WillieH: Yes I do, and I will... when I choose... As do you have same... Quote: But your refusal to do so demonstrates a complete arrogance and disdain for those who may have more experience or insight than you. WillieH: You have no idea how much "experience" I have concerning this issue... I spent 25+years in the belief system you are presently in! Just because I find it foolishness to entertain things I have heard and read over and over, things that have no real foundation... doesn't equate to arrogance... come on... If I tell you to go to a hockey game and YOU say that you don't like HOCKEY.. doesnt mean you are arrogant because of your feelings toward hockey? It merely states that you've seen hockey and it doesn't ring your chimes... Get a clue Spozy Quote: WillieH: I see you cannot speak for yourself... Your faith is in the hands of another man... I can stand about my beliefs without quoting reasons or scriptures from another man... Quote: Who are you to judge where my faith resides? It is completely illogical to conclude that my faith is not in Christ just because I quote another person's thoughts. WillieH: I did not state that you do not have faith in Christ... sorry, let me put it in better words... There is a PORTION of your faith that is in another man's hands... Quote: Are you so arrogant that you think that you can arrive at truth completely alone without dialogue with the rest of the Christian community of faith? WillieH: Spoz... my faith and knowledge comes from GOD and my pursuit of Him... of course I read others writings.. but I base my conclusions on the scriptures and by the Power of the Holy Spirit, via prayer and diligent EVERYDAY study.. seek Him and follow HIS GUIDANCE... I do NOT swallow, hook line and sinker... the words of ANY MAN... Your view of arrogance is in need of revamping... I am confident of what I know, because I have researched it MYSELF... not because some preacher or church "doctrinal beliefs" have stated it... Quote: Obviously so, because the tone of your posts is not conversational or collaborative exploration of the Bible with fellow believers on a faith journey. You clearly have decided that you have arrived at the truth on your own and you are going to hand it down from your personal Mt Sinai and call down the wrath of God on anyone who disagrees with you -- so much for your alleged emphasis on grace and mercy! WillieH: Your conversation grows more juvenile, the more you speak... I certainly have been helped along my way by many... but, because they are on their trail and I on mine, ...it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to seek GOD and His truth FOR MYSELF... not depend on the "faith community" who in many cases are full of deception.. to put me in the pocket! I don't look down from any MT SINAI and call the Wrath of God down on you or anyone! What a whiner! On the contrary... It is YOU SPOZY that is so interested in WRATH and HELL and ARROGANCE... I on the other hand preach that GOD shall save ALL, and that HIS MERCY is within His JUDGEMENTS and His LOVE is within HIS PUNISHMENTS... YOU are the "Wrath caller", not I.. Quote: WillieH: If you wish to speak against the Salvation of All... you stand before God for it alone, ...you dont get to hold hands with this person you have herein quoted... Quote: What a bizarre response! Why don't you start living according to your self-professed universalism. If everyone is saved, then surely I will 'get to hold hands with this person'. If, as you say, I wish to speak against the salvation of all, then it is because the Bible teaches that there will be some who will be lost despite the fact that God desires that everyone be saved and has provided the free gift of salvation for every single person. The Bible teaches that there will be some who, if they so choose, will be lost. WillieH: No YOU will not get to hold hands in the JUDGEMENT and PUNISHMENT to come... You will NOT be able to blame anyone but YOURSELF for denying the Words of truth... Universalism is the truth of God's plan to save ALL... but in this process... JUDGEMENT and LOSS and SORROW shall occur for YOU and I and everyone that has behaviors and deeds outside of the law of LOVE... Quote: Did you know that Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about heaven? WillieH: Oh really? You must have some extraterrestrial bible or something because, for one JESUS ...NEVER spoke of HELL ...Hell is a mistranslation of the words SHEOL, HADES, GEHENNA and TARTAROS... even if I were to "give" you HIS references using these words... He only spoke "HELL" (hades/gehenna/tartaros) in 15 verses in the New Testament... whereas... He spoke the word HEAVEN, 110 times! You arent very good at math, ..are you? Either that, or you just haven't studied what you state... In either case, you statement in the above quote is WRONG... and I CHALLENGE YOU to refute it.... Quote: Can I suggest that, instead of picking phrases here and there that, at first glance, appear to support your point of view, that you read the Bible in big slabs so that you can see what the Bible, as a whole, teaches on the subject of salvation? WillieH: Here and there? How about to the tune of over 100 places! That, kind of REPETITION would place more of an "ALL OVER THE PLACE" banner... not "HERE & THERE" as you falsely state... would you like a few? How about: 1 Tim 4:9-11 / 1 Tim 2:4-6 / Rom 5:18 / Rom 5:19 / Luke 19:10 / John 3:17 / John 1:29 / Phil 2:10-11 / 1 Cor 3:12-15 / Rom 5:20 / 1 Cor 15:22 / Col 1:20 / 1 John 4:14.... would you like more? If so, I can provide many others upon request... Just let me know if you need MORE PROOF... Quote: And pray that God will give you a humble, teachable spirit. WillieH: I do spozy... and I think it would be beneficial to you to do the same... I admit, that I do not have the best communication skills, and that from time to time, I do not have a soft enough demeanor... for that I apologize... for the support of the Universal Salvation of Mankind by its Creator... I apologize NOT... Quote: And ask God to give you an attitude of respect for your conversation partners. WillieH: Here again, ... we both can use an improvement in this area... reread your posts to me... they are not filled with the LOVE that you percieve is exuding from you... You ARE RIGHT concerning this... we need to remind ourselves to LOVE one another, even in disagreement... in which you and I are obviously entrenched.. Quote: WillieH: Most theologians resort to quoting each other so that they can, as you have here with Tal, pat each other on the back... Quote: Frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about. If I agree with Tall73 I will say so. If I disagree with him, I will say so. WillieH: Haven't seen it yet (you disagreeing with Tal).. you 2 are like 2 peas in a pod... Quote: Quite clearly, you have not read very widely in the theological literature (understandable if you think that you shouldn't read and/or respond to anything other than your own study). If you did so, you would see that many theologians disagree with and argue with their fellow theologians. WillieH: Theologians are all full of themselves... they in fact are the Pharisees of this day... and will answer to God, just as the Pharisees (supposed teachers of spiritual things), of JESUS' day, for the misleading of the sheep... Quote: In fact, if you read more widely than you appear to have done so, you would, perhaps, discover a more reasonable and constructive way of discussing things with others. WillieH: The same could be said of you spoz boy! You read things that agree with your religion... and thereby verify by the falsehoods of "theologians" that your stand is true... I, on the other hand, QUESTION these Wolves in sheeps clothing... and have found them to be LIARS... Quote: WillieH: JESUS stood against such as you ALONE... and it does not surprise me that you would gather like of your kind to "gang up" on me.... Quote: This demonstrates where you are coming from... You think that, because I quote other authors, that it is 'ganging up' on you -- as if I would think that I could win an argument by numbers. WillieH: Actually, I was speaking of Tal... not the authors you quote... And I believe that you may be decieving yourself into thinking that numbers dont matter... Are you an active SDA? Do you believe in their doctrine? Do you support their stand in the Christian and world communities? Methinks you think a lot about numbers if any of your answers to these questions is YES... Myself... there are FEW that believe in Universalism... so numbers are not an issue in my case... they might be in yours.. Quote: Quite obviously, you do not read the content of these quotes... but as soon as you see them, you reject them. The appropriate way of proceeding is to read them for their content and to respond to the subject matter. This you quite clearly are either unwilling or unable to do. It shows a weakness in your thinking. WillieH: Spozy, I've heard it all before... these arguements are steeped in DECEPTION and I just don't have the time or the desire, to spit them out again... for they taste of lies... and they brew the wine of evil... Quote: And what do you mean when you say that 'JESUS stood up against such as [me] ALONE...' Do you mean Jesus was alone, or that I am alone? WillieH: You are a little shallow at times spoz.. JESUS stood ALONE against the Scribes and Pharisees... as do I against YOU and TAL, and EUGENE and all the rest that cling to your philosophys... for that is all they are... Quote: Whatever you mean, you are quite clearly suggesting that I am like someone whom Jesus was against -- therefore, you must be implying that I am a Pharisee or something. So, there you go again, judging me. WillieH: If the shoe fits.. wear it spoz... If you come against the TRUTH and the WORD... than it is the WORD that is judging you, not I... WHEN the WORD says that CHRIST ...IS the SAVIOR of ALL MEN (1 Tom 4:10) and you deny this, then it is NOT I that judge you.. it is your own DENIAL that does... I have just attempted to present it to you... In my own admissions earlier, I am not the best at it... nor do I know it all... But I am confident of the trail I walk, because I have already traversed the one you are presently on, as an SDA... Quote: May I point out a few passages of Scripture (the results of my own research, by the way): 'Soon—and it will not be very long—the wilderness of Lebanon will be a fertile field once again. And the fertile fields will become a lush and fertile forest. In that day deaf people will hear words read from a book, and blind people will see through the gloom and darkness. The humble will be filled with fresh joy from the Lord. Those who are poor will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. Those who intimidate and harass will be gone, and all those who plot evil will be killed. Those who make the innocent guilty by their false testimony will disappear. And those who use trickery to pervert justice and tell lies to tear down the innocent will be no more.' (Is 29:17-21, NLT) WillieH: I have asked before.. and have recieved no answer.. what is NLT? The TRUTH is that FALSEHOOD shall disappear... You percieve ME in this passage, but I say, ....These words can easily be talking about YOU.. Quote: God clearly does not like intimidation and harassment. '“Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.' (Mt 7:1-5, NLT) WillieH: Again, what is NLT? and Again, you should take these words to heart yourself... Quote: “Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. Stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. ... ' (Lk 6:37, NLT) WillieH: I agree with these words (even though I have misgivings about NLT) the meaning comes through.... I dont judge you.. just because I point something out that I have observed.... doesnt mean that I believe you are condemned for it... on the contrary... my motive is to hopefully plant a seed, not judge... this is GOD's place and His ALONE... 'Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor?' (Jas 4:11-12, NLT) Quote: No doubt, you will turn these verses back on me and say that I am judging you. However, that is not what I am doing. I am trying to get through to you that the way you communicate with me (and others) is judgmental and destructive. WillieH: And you think your communication with me is NOT JUDGEMENTAL and NOT DESTRUCTIVE? Look in the mirror... tell me what you see... Is your view PERFECT... or do you, like I, see thru the glass darkly... and aspire to see clearer... You might do better for yourself to get off your high-horse and drop the backhanded statements, as if I cannot see through you... The Holy Spirit is my guide, and I, ...but a dumb sheep trying to find His way... Quote: WillieH: In the end UNIVERSALISM is NOT a religion, it is NOT a DENOMINATION it is VERY FEW... much as the number Christ said would hear His words in the last days... Quote: So now you legitimate your view by saying it is only believed by a few? Since when is truth determined by numbers -- large or small? WillieH: Truth is Truth.. numbers are insignificant... Jesus started this all with just 12 men... What I stated by this, is that, JESUS said that the road to LIFE would be narrow and there would be FEW that would find it... also he said Many are called but FEW are chosen... Many would come in His name falsely... numbers favored the few in Jesus' words... at times... But, on the other hand, ... the saved were counted as the Sand of the Sea... and as the Stars of Heaven... INNUMERABLE... this is NOT the picture of Modern day Christianity's view of the saved... they see the end result as FEW... certainly NOT INNUMERABLE... It has been estimated that 150,000,000 humans have walked the earth... maybe 1 BILLION have even heard the message of Christ... let alone "decided" for Salvation... this is NOT INNUMERABLE... 150 BILLION is closer to INNUMERABLE... Quote: The above is a somewhat lengthy response to your last message to me. Notice that none of it is directly responding to anything you said about universalism. This demonstrates that you constantly stray from the issue and personalise your communication by attacking your correspondents. Quote: WillieH: Hi Tal... First, thank you for doing as I requested... it was the honorable thing, and I applaude your sense of conversation... I will therefore respond to this latest post.... I also applaud Tall73's sense of conversation. Please learn from his approach! Quote: Might I say that my conversation with Spozz is my conversation with Spozz... You guys seem to like to tag-team me, and I, whether you receive my words or not, am free to decide if and how I shall respond and won't be dictated to by you OR him, as to how I respond to YOU or HIM... I think Tall73 was asking you to be consistent. WillieH: As in my quote... I will NOT be dictated to... if you choose to converse with me... then we do it as you and I... My communication with Tal is another story... Quote: WillieH: I don't even know why I am bothering to explain this to you since this WAS NOT done in my conversation with YOU.... Quote: Perhaps you don't realise that this is a PUBLIC discussion forum. WillieH: Here you go again... let's face it... YOU are talking to me, NOT TAL, and I am talking to YOU not TAL... If TAL wants to address me, he may... that is his choice... if He doesnt, again... his choice... presently I am addressing you, so I will not be called on the carpet by Him for how I address YOU and vice-versa.... Quote: If you want a private conversation, perhaps you should communicate privately. The sort of cross-communication we are engaging in is quite common in public discussion forums. Imagine we are sitting in a lounge room together having a conversation. If someone else says something I agree with, why shouldn't I say so? And why shouldn't I add a comment that supports, enlarges, or even contradicts what the other person has said? The only reason someone would be concerned about this would be if they took an adversarial approach to conversation and construed it as a numbers war -- truth by majority vote. WillieH: first, truth IS NOT by "majority vote"... truth is TRUTH... period. If someone wants to peek in and address me... I will answer them... But it is not UP TO YOU to dictate to ME, how I address TAL... do you get it? WillieH: I accidently deleted your quote, but I will answer the following to the best of my ability.. I do not know everything... Quote: 1) How is universalism consistent with humans being created in God's image? WillieH: What a vague question... but I will answer as it strikes me> GOD created ALL human beings... ALL human beings have the BREATH of LIFE that is FROM GOD... He is therefore the PARENT of each human being... and the creation process (fyi) is not yet OVER.. and INTENDED for ALL that are LOST... how many are LOST SPozy? Quote: 2) If you believe in universalism, how can you justify God being a cosmic rapist? WillieH: What kind of dopey question is this? Cosmic rapist? such words of disrespect you attach to your creator... be careful... Quote: 3) How is God consistent with his holiness and justice if God forces a wicked person to be saved, against their will? WillieH: at last a question that makes some sense... You were a wicked person were you not? And did GOD "force" you to be saved? He will not EVER "force" anyone... everyone, eventually will SEE HIM and KNOW HIM and when they do, like you and I, they will bow to His MAJESTY, be humbled by His LOVE, be JUSTIFIED by HIS SACRIFICE, which ALONE is HOLY... and JUST... (Rom 11:29-32) (29) "for the gifts and calling of GOD are without repentence.." (30) "for as YE in times past have NOT BELIEVED GOD, yet have NOW obtained MERCY though their UNBELIEF" (31) "Even so, have thes also now ...NOT BELIEVED, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy" (32) "For GOD had CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF that HE might have MERCY upon ALL" (see vs25/fullness of Gentiles/all Israel shall be saved) Quote: 4) How are your interpretations of the passages of Scripture you quote consistent with the contexts in which they appear? WillieH: They are EXTREMELY consistent.. As opposed to annihilation or ET and their quotes... Quote: 5) How to you answer the explicit teaching of Scripture that some will be lost because they persist in rejecting God? WillieH: Quote me verse, I will volunteer my viewpoint... Quote: 6) How is the view of universalism anything other than wishful thinking? WillieH: Now you resort to sarcasm... if you think wishful thinking to be: the ALL encompassing ALL mighty ALL loving ALL merciful ALL justifying GOD able to SAVE ALL... then it is the greatest WISH you can have for GOD is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH.... and in this WISH, He gets HIS WISH... Pretty wishful eh? Quote: If you do not have any answers, be honest enough to say so. .. WillieH: Let's face it Spoz... YOU are the one with NO ANSWERS.. you are the one that needs to be HONEST enough to say so... I give scripture after scripture, and do you believe the scriptures? Of course you don't ...because you have your '"FREE WILL" now don't you? I pray for you... do you do same for me? Just reread the Pharisee and Publican parable... I fall to my face and ask GOD's forgiveness for I am a SINNER... and thank Him, and GLORIFY HIM, for saving ALL... but you... what do you do Spoze? Do you thank Him for your own self, and too bad for those that don't make it? That Mr Spoze, is the difference between you and me... Sad... Do you justify yourself with your religion, with your "free will", thanking God for yourself, and your supposed "timely choice for Christ", or do you join me ....on face? In JESUS ...WillieH...servant... Back to top   '); //--> spozzie Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: No quotes... Speak for yourself... from YOUR OWN researc Hi WillieH Before continuing the conversation... you might be interested to know that I have never identified as an SDA on this board. Eugene (I believe) took the liberty of writing the words Seventh-day Adventist under my name -- a presumption I raised with him. He decided, in his wisdom, to label me with something I didn't ask for. Let me state my position - the label SDA does NOT define my theology. Along with many others who are members of the denomination, there are some of the 28 Fundamentals I disagree with in toto, partly, or agree with. Like you, I do my own thinking and will not be conformed to someone else's belief system(s) or labels. I appeal to you not to assume that, because I am a member of the denomination, you then know what I believe about specific issues. I am sure you would agree that, when searching for truth, the labels are not important. What is important is what God's Word says -- I think we agree on that. Let me also be clear about where my faith lies -- in Christ and Christ alone. In matters of belief and doctrine I accept the Bible, and the Bible only as the ultimate authority for faith and practice. Quote: It is YOU SPOZY that is so interested in WRATH and HELL I am only interested in these topics to the degree that Scripture is interested in them. The actual issue of universalism is about whether or not there will be any that are lost. Obviously, if we are discussing universalism, then we, by definition, have to be discussing these topics. I am much more interested, overall, in the grace and mercy of God. But grace and mercy would not be necessary without God's wrath, surely? Quote: even if I were to "give" you HIS references using these words... He only spoke "HELL" (hades/gehenna/tartaros) in 15 verses in the New Testament I stand corrected. In the NASB, there are only 11 references where Jesus used the word translated "hell" in the gospels. Jesus uses the word translated "heaven" much more. Quote: 1 Tim 4:9-11 / 1 Tim 2:4-6 / Rom 5:18 / Rom 5:19 / Luke 19:10 / John 3:17 / John 1:29 / Phil 2:10-11 / 1 Cor 3:12-15 / Rom 5:20 / 1 Cor 15:22 / Col 1:20 / 1 John 4:14 (In what follows, I will quote from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) for the sake of literality despite its gender problems.) Quote: 'It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things.' (1 Ti 4:9-11, NASB) Jesus is the Saviour of all people. He most certainly is their Saviour. But that does not logically entail that they can't refuse to be saved. Imagine I am a surf life saver. Someone is drowning. I row a boat out to them, and offer to pull them into the boat. Imagine they refuse to come into the boat. The fact they refuse doesn't negate that I am their rescuer. I am, but they may refuse. This is the same with Christ. Christ is the Saviour of all -- there is no other name by which humanity can be saved. But that does not logically necessitate that someone cannot refuse. And what does it mean to say that he is the Saviour, especially of those who believe? There is obviously a difference between those who believe and those who do not. What difference would be meaningful other than that those who believe have not rejected the salvation Christ has made available for them? Quote: 'who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.' (1 Ti 2:4-6, NASB) These verses speak of the Saviour who desires that all are saved. For that purpose, Jesus gave himself as a ransom for everyone. God is a god of love, so obviously desires that everyone be saved and has done everything necessary for that salvation to be a reality. But desiring something is not the same as forcing the outcome. There is no reason to read this text as stating that, ultimately, every single person will be saved. It is quite consistent with other passages of Scripture that teach some will be lost. Quote: ' So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.' (Ro 5:18, NASB) Once again, there is no reason to read this verse as saying that every single individual will ultimately be saved. Through Christ's one act, every human being is justified (declared righteous). But it is still possible for someone to refuse the benefits of this declaration. Justification is a necessary condition for salvation, but if a person refuses to live according to that declaration, God will not overpower that person. Quote: ' For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.' (Ro 5:19, NASB) Same comment as above. Paul is clearly discussing imputed sin and imputed righteousness (otherwise it wouldn't be parallel). A person can still reject this imputation if they so wish. Quote: '“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”' (Lk 19:10, NASB) Of course Jesus came to seek and save the lost! This was a discussion with Zaccheus and Jesus was affirming that it was for people like Zaccheus that he came to earth. Once again, their is no logical reason to understand this statement as saying that every single person would ultimately be saved. Quote: ' “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.' (Jn 3:17, NASB) This is true, Jesus was not sent to judge but to save. But that doesn't mean there will be no judgment at all. The very next verse (18) speaks of a judgment brought about by the choice of individuals to reject Christ! Quote: 'The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!' (Jn 1:29, NASB) Yes! Jesus did take away the sin of the world. But that still does not make a person incapable of refusing to living according to that reality. The verse does not preclude someone from rejecting the salvation made available. Quote: ' that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,' (Php 2:10, NASB) Every knee will bow at the name of Jesus, confessing that Jesus Christ is the Lord -- but notice the text does not say that every person will confess Christ as Saviour. This is a bowing of submission when confronted with the ultimate reality of who Jesus is. Quote: ' Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.' (1 Co 3:12-15, NASB) Paul is speaking to the church and saying that the church can only be built on the foundation of Christ. Paul is speaking to believers in this passage. Even if a believer's works are found to be wanting, that person will still be saved. Paul is not discussing the fate of unbelievers. Quote: ' And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,' (Ro 5:20, NASB) Yes... so? The greater the transgression, the greater the grace. This says nothing about the (im)possibility of anyone being lost. Quote: ' For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.' (1 Co 15:22, NASB) Yes, in Christ, every person is made alive. This doesn't logically necessitate that a person can't choose to die the second death! Quote: ' and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.' (Col 1:20, NASB) Yes, through Christ, all has been reconciled to God. But read the next few verses: Quote: ' and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.' (Col 1:20-23, NASB) Notice that Paul recognises the possibility that some may choose to move away from the faith and the gospel. So this passage most definitely does not teach that there is no possibility of anyone being lost. Quote: ' And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.' (1 Jn 4:14, NASB) Yes, but notice the conditions in the next couple of verses: Quote: ' And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.' (1 Jn 4:14-15, NASB) John is affirming that Jesus is, indeed, the Saviour of the world. But it is only those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God in whom God dwells. In the case of every verse you have cited, WillieH, not one of them addresses, or states, the impossibility of any person being lost. They affirm the good news that Christ is the Saviour of all the world. Every person's sins have been forgiven; every person has been declared righteous and alive in Christ. But not one verse states that a person cannot reject Jesus Christ. To claim that they do is to read that notion into the text or to ignore the context. Quote: would you like more? If so, I can provide many others upon request... Just let me know if you need MORE PROOF... None of the texts you have offered have proved the impossibility of a person being lost (some just the opposite). So I guess you will need to give me more. Quote: I admit, that I do not have the best communication skills, and that from time to time, I do not have a soft enough demeanor... for that I apologize... for the support of the Universal Salvation of Mankind by its Creator... I apologize NOT... Apology accepted... and if I have miscommunicated, I also ask forgiveness. Quote: WillieH: Haven't seen it yet (you disagreeing with Tal).. you 2 are like 2 peas in a pod... I'm sure the day will come :-) Quote: But I am confident of the trail I walk, because I have already traversed the one you are presently on, as an SDA... You have no idea of the trail I have travelled or am on presently. So leave it aside; it has nothing to do with the topic. Quote: I have asked before.. and have recieved no answer.. what is NLT? I must have missed the question - sorry - it stands for New Living Translation. Quote: It has been estimated that 150,000,000 humans have walked the earth... maybe 1 BILLION have even heard the message of Christ... let alone "decided" for Salvation... this is NOT INNUMERABLE... 150 BILLION is closer to INNUMERABLE... This indicates a misunderstanding of my view. I have never said that a person can only be saved by hearing the message of Christ. I have only said that a person can be lost by rejecting whatever revelation of God they have received, whether it be direct, through nature, etc. I believe all are saved unless they reject; NOT all will be lost unless they accept. Quote: 1) How is universalism consistent with humans being created in God's image? WillieH: What a vague question... but I will answer as it strikes me> GOD created ALL human beings... ALL human beings have the BREATH of LIFE that is FROM GOD... He is therefore the PARENT of each human being... and the creation process (fyi) is not yet OVER.. and INTENDED for ALL that are LOST... how many are LOST SPozy? Let me be clearer. God is able to choose. He made humans in his image. An important part of that image is the ability to choose. To reject the idea that a person may reject God if they so choose must mean that God overrides choice. Therefore, God is denying an aspect of the image of himself in humanity. Quote: Quote: 2) If you believe in universalism, how can you justify God being a cosmic rapist? WillieH: What kind of dopey question is this? Cosmic rapist? such words of disrespect you attach to your creator... be careful... You have missed my point. I am not saying that God is a cosmic rapist. If universalism is true, then universalists make God to be a cosmic rapist. That is, God forces people against their will to be saved. Forcing someone against their will is, by definition, rape. I'm suggesting that universalists be careful. I want to know how you can avoid this attribution to God. Quote: Quote: 3) How is God consistent with his holiness and justice if God forces a wicked person to be saved, against their will? WillieH: at last a question that makes some sense... You were a wicked person were you not? And did GOD "force" you to be saved? He will not EVER "force" anyone... everyone, eventually will SEE HIM and KNOW HIM and when they do, like you and I, they will bow to His MAJESTY, be humbled by His LOVE, be JUSTIFIED by HIS SACRIFICE, which ALONE is HOLY... and JUST... (Rom 11:29-32) I don't think you have understood the nuances of my view. I believe, as I said before, that when Christ died, everyone was declared justified, forgiven, and that moment, saved. What I am saying is that God does not prevent people from rejecting that salvation. You are begging the question in your reply. You say that people will bow to God like you and I. That's just the point -- I am choosing not to reject God -- as you are choosing not to reject God (unless you think God is forcing you not to choose). As I have stated above, ultimately, everyone will bow and confess God as Lord -- but not necessarily as Saviour. Quote: (29) "for the gifts and calling of GOD are without repentence.." A better translation: ' for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.' (Ro 11:29, NASB) All this is saying is that God won't go back on his gifts and promises. It says nothing about someone not being able to refuse them. Quote: Quote: 4) How are your interpretations of the passages of Scripture you quote consistent with the contexts in which they appear? WillieH: They are EXTREMELY consistent.. As opposed to annihilation or ET and their quotes... Sorry, have to disagree with you as my responses to your cited texts above show. I believe, to accept universalism, you have to read presuppositions into the text or rip them out of context, or ignore the vast witness of Scripture that teaches that some may be lost. (NB: I say may because I don't believe that God has determined that some will definitely be lost. It is theoretically possible that everyone may choose not to reject God. But we know this not to be the case because, historically, we know of many who have explicitly, persistently rejected God. And that brings up another question: what about those who have already died rejecting God? What do you have to say about them? Quote: Quote: 5) How to you answer the explicit teaching of Scripture that some will be lost because they persist in rejecting God? WillieH: Quote me verse, I will volunteer my viewpoint... I think I've done that already. The post following the one you responded to, addressed to anyone who wished to respond. Quote: WillieH: Now you resort to sarcasm... if you think wishful thinking to be: the ALL encompassing ALL mighty ALL loving ALL merciful ALL justifying GOD able to SAVE ALL... then it is the greatest WISH you can have for GOD is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH.... and in this WISH, He gets HIS WISH... Pretty wishful eh? This makes no sense to me. I was not being sarcastic. I was suggesting that it is easy to want to believe that noone will be lost. However, the Bible does not teach it in my view. I do wish that no one will perish. I hope that every single person will be saved. But my wishing it so doesn't make it so. Scripture teaches that individuals have the capacity to refuse salvation. To refuse to acknowledge that means to allow our wishes to overcome truth. Quote: WillieH: Let's face it Spoz... YOU are the one with NO ANSWERS.. you are the one that needs to be HONEST enough to say so... I give scripture after scripture, and do you believe the scriptures? Of course you don't ...because you have your '"FREE WILL" now don't you? I do have answers and have given them above. For every single passage of Scripture you have cited, the verses do not say what you claim they do and can be consistently understood with the rest of Scripture's teaching on salvation. I do believe the Scriptures -- it is disingenuous for you to say I don't -- once again, you make irrelevant points. Quote: I pray for you... do you do same for me? Just reread the Pharisee and Publican parable... I fall to my face and ask GOD's forgiveness for I am a SINNER... and thank Him, and GLORIFY HIM, for saving ALL... So do I. Quote: but you... what do you do Spoze? Do you thank Him for your own self, and too bad for those that don't make it? That Mr Spoze, is the difference between you and me... Sad... No, I do not. You are wandering off again into irrelevant material. I grieve over those who refuse God's offer of salvation. When I have the opportunity, I tell them the good news that God has reconciled them to himself and that they are saved. I urge them to live a life consistent with that truth. Maybe it helps you feel better to suggest such a difference between you and me. But it is completely inaccurate and unnecessary. Quote: Do you justify yourself with your religion, with your "free will", thanking God for yourself, and your supposed "timely choice for Christ", or do you join me ....on face? I don't think I have said anything which would suggest I justify myself with my religion or with my free will. These are things you are constructing in some attempt to make me look worse than you and therefore place doubt on my views. Instead of doing that, why not stick to the topic itself and let God worry about my heart? My salvation came through Christ who gave himself for me long before I was born. I entered the world justified, forgiven, saved. So there was no 'timely choice' on my part -- only God's timely choice. So I am on my face with you... In Christ... Back to top   '); //--> tall73 Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: A few points. 1. I want to apologize at this point for the sarcasm etc. I readily admit I WAS sarcastic in my last two posts. As I stated at the outset I was upset by your calling us pharisees when I was trying to look at the scriptures you wanted us to examine . Honestly, I was telling you my true view of the scriptures in question. I should not have allowed myself to become sarcastic however, and for that, I have no excuse. We need to avoid such in the future. However, valid disagreement is fine. And I don't think that it should be avoided. To do so is to skirt the issues. For my part I resolve to try to do that with respect from now on. I do in fact view you as a friend in Christ. But at the same time I strongly believe that your views may lead people astray. You believe the same about me. But we can still have respectful dialogue. As to name calling, whether you think me a new Christian or not, I don't understand why this is a form of attack for you. Older Christians nurture new ones, not belittle them. And actually I have been a Christian for about 14 years now. Undoubtedly you have been a Christian longer. But first of all that does not indicate maturity as the author of Hebrews references in chapter 6 of his letter that some had been Christians for so long that by now they ought to be teachers, but instead they were mere infants. Second of all, even if I am less mature in the faith, doesn't that mean you should be more patient with me? More willing to show from the scriptures what I need to know? I don't understand how this has become to you a club. If I am wrong, show me where I am wrong. It has nothing to do with the number of years you have been in the faith. As to my view of God you can't make a claim such as "everyone is saved" and then expect us not to talk about things that we see in scripture that seem to contradict that. I regularly preach on the grace of God. But I do certainly view it differently than you do. I do not dwell on the punishment most times. But I feel to eliminate it is to be unfaithful to Jesus' own message. I quoted numerous passages in the post you skipped of the statement that sinners would be punished. Punishment often is redemptive. But it is the context that determines whether it is or not. The death penalty, which God instituted, is punishment, and NOT redemptive. It is removing a corrupting influence from the rest of God's family. You stated that the flood is a statement about temporal judgement. I agree. However, it is used by the NT writers as an example of God's judgement. It is used as a case study that God does not extend mercy forever. In the very passage I was referencing, 2 Peter 3, which is a key one for both of our arguments, he was using a. the flood b. sodom c. evil angels as an example of God's judgement. It was a clear statement to the scoffers that God does NOT prolong judgement forever. I have more to say on this , but I will wait until I respond to your whole recent statement. 2. You keep saying I don't quote scripture. There is a simple reason for this. The entirety of what you responded to was merely my addition by your request to what I said before. I put 10 pages of biblical response, then answered the questions I had not fully addressed for another 6 pages. You only responded to the 6 pages. I mentioned at least twice, at the beginning and end for you to respond to the whole thing. You didn't. All the scriptures you wondered about were cited in the first post. Therefore I made mention of them without citing because I knew that we all had them in mind form earlier conversation. If you need me to repost I will. But I want you to address that post if you are going to try to dismiss me as unbiblical. You ducked it once saying you wouldn't answer until I answered your questions. I answered them and then you never answered my original post anyway. Once you answer that post I will answer both your current post to me in more detail, and your response to me from the other. 3. Moreover, you have quoted those 12 or so texts before and I answered each one. You didn't even look at them. Now, forgive me for reading your conversation with Spozzi, but you said that you would would post the other 90 again. When I suggested you do that before you said the following: Quote: No, I wont give you 90 scriptures to reply to you (how small of you to say such words) because it is futility, as you do not believe what they say anyhow... much as the "religious" pharisees did NOT believe... Now at that point I had not been sarcastic to you in the least. I had done EXACTLY what you asked me to do in the first post, explain those texts. I did so. And you said in the first post you made you would post 90 more. I was just wanting to see them. But you then treated me like a pharisee without even looking at my explanation which was using biblical texts. And I was serious. I want to see the 90. So far I have found nothing to recommend your new truth. But if you have more texts, show them. The point is that you are presenting something which you know is new. You want people to consider it. But then you seem to get upset at the first sign they are not accepting it. That is no way to convince people. And it bothered me. I also quoted additional texts. In fact, I have used a total of 61 cited scripture references in my 6 responses to you. The one I did not cite is that regarding the demons. I apologize for that. It is listed in several places: Quote: Mark 3:11 11 Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12 But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was LK 4:40 When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them. 41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. MT 8:28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" MK 5:6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!" LK 8:26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places. LK 8:30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss. These texts all speak of demon's acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God. Do you think those are confessions of salvation? Love? Yet they gave glory to God. The scriptures often refer to the phrase "give glory to God" as a technical term for telling the truth. So in your text that you often quote about all confessing to the glory of God, it is likely talking about an admission of truth that does Glorify God, but does not bring any salvation as such. As with the demons, they are compelled to tell it ,but it is not saving in their case. Here we have examples above where the demons made confessions that a . Jesus was the Son of God b. He had power over them but no where is there a hint that this brought salvation. The last text makes reference to the Abyss. Which by the way you properly note is NOT the same as hell. I do in fact agree with you that hell is an foreign concept to the Bible. Gehenna is more properly the fire in 2 Peter 3 that we both referred to as destroying the old heavens and earth. Now I don't take anything demons say as being truth. But there is another mention of demons in a place of torment from a more reliable source. Quote: 2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Now here we see again the most crucial text in 2 Peter. And he makes reference to several examples of His dealing both with men and with demons. It also says that He put he demons in gloomy dungeons waiting for the judgement. That doesn't sound like the way God would treat people after they made a saving confession. Now in the story Jesus does NOT send them to the abyss. He sends them to the pigs. But neither did he say they were forgiven at all, or extend salvation, or remove their fear of the judgement. Their confession was in no way acknowledged as leading to salvation. It should also be noted that this is of course the backdrop for the statement about God not wanting anyone to perish. Quote: 2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Peter recounts the details of the scoffers who forgot about the flood. He then says that the present earth and heavens are reserved for fire–which you actually had no argument with. But it also says that fire will bring about the destruction of ungodly men–not just their works. Then he gives the message of mercy. That God's delay has been for their benefit. Even though mockers may ridicule them for it, it means that more will be saved because God is patient not wanting any to perish. Now in all seriousness, why would God have to be patient in bringing the destruction of the world if after that they still have a chance to repent? It doesn't seem to indicate that they do. It seems to indicate that they are destroyed with the heavens and earth. That He is patient because this IS their chance for repentance now. To emphasize this he goes on to say, BUT despite God's mercy the day of the Lord will come like a thief. And all these things will happen. He even makes a further after this: Quote: 2PE 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. first he exhorts them to live a holy life. I think all of us agree that is good, regardless of whether all men are saved or not. But then he says we should SPEED God's coming. Now I understand that you believe in God's sovereignty. If God has determined a time, which it says He has in other places, why does Peter say to speed God's coming? In fact, what determines when He will come? The only text that I find is in Matthew. Quote: MT 24:9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Now first it should be noted that Jesus says that because of the increase of wickedness the love of many will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Isn't Jesus saying that a. some will NOT endure to the end. Their love will grow cold. b. the ones who endure will be saved. Now as I read that, it seems to me to be saying not everyone will be saved. I am not distorting it in my own mind. That is really how I see it. How am I a pharisee for saying that? But second of all note that it says when the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony then the end will come. So then...if we take Peter's statement, he seems to be saying a. God is patiently waiting for people to come to repentance. This is the reason He hasn't come yet b. God will come when all have heard. So wouldn't spreading the message cause Him to come more quickly? This is the only meaning I can get out of Peter's statement. By the way, I agree that not all have heard the gospel message of Jesus. In fact, I spelled out my views in the post that you have yet to respond to. So I will let you reference my points there. 4. All three of us here acknowledge that a. we are sinful b. only God's grace saves us where we differ is on our understanding of the words of scripture itself. We are not saying that some are lost because we want to be better than others. We are saying it because it seems to plainly say it to us. I cannot at all reconcile all of the texts with your view. It is not stubbornness. I simply haven't been convinced. If you wish to convince, then hear out our objections, answer them one by one. I often have objections when presenting the gospel. But they are not ever convinced if I do not patiently go over the material, all that they need to answer the question. Moreover I do not think that God will punish any of us for an honest interpretation of His scripture that we are convinced of. Now it may be that if we are truly intentionally deluding ourselves, that He might. But He would know that, and we certainly don't know it about each other. I assume that your views are sincere. I have not in fact questioned your salvation. I have said that if you continue to deny the judgement of God then you do so at your own peril. Not necessarily because you will not be saved, but as you say, because God will not be pleased if others are lost by your influence. I have questioned your influence on others who might simply feel that they are at liberty to spurn God due to your teaching. In fact, let us review the text you have quoted several times about rewards. Quote: 1CO 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1CO 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple. Paul is replying to their fighting over who they should follow, Apollos, Paul, Peter (Cephas) etc. Paul has said only Christ should be followed rather than fighting over the servants of God. He then uses this example that God is the one who is to be worshiped, we are merely workmen. Some are better workmen than others. Now some specific notes. A. The foundation of the building is Jesus' Christ. Each one builds on that foundation. Some build well, with precious materials. Others will less precious. Some apparently don't do well at all. B. Our works are indeed brought to light at the end. C. However, the statement about each man's work is limited to its earlier context. It only refers to those who build on that foundation. Can we really say that the unbeliever in this life builds anything on the foundation of Christ? He is speaking about leaders of the church that the Corinthians are fighitng over. Secondarily he is speaking of all Christians He is not speaking about every person in the world. Therefore he says "if any man." D. The one who builds unwisely is still saved. But what he built is burned up. The results of their ministry were not what they should have been because they did not build the right way. This is not to me a statement of all men's rewards. It seems instead to be A. A call to worship God, not follow man B. A warning that man should not take glory to himself, but should be careful that he builds properly on the one foundation. In light of the second I sincerely worry that your teaching could lead people astray. I likewise understand you feel the same about me. So let us begin to respectfully answer each one scripturally. In fact, as a suggestion, what we might do is do this in a more profitable fashion. Rather than making these long posts, let's focus on one text at a time. You could suggest one to look at. Then we could. Each time we let the discussion run for a bit till we all have at least made our points clear. These long posts are not all bad, as they have fleshed out our views to some degree. But they can lack the specific nature of a more focused attempt. I would like you to at least read my previous post that you skipped. But if we agree to this new method, a response would not be needed. We can address each text in turn. However we do it, let us be respectful. I apologize for not doing this before. Back to top   '); //--> WillieH Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply WillieH: Hi Spoz.. I skimmed thru your response, and agree that a softer and more focused conversation would profit us both... Thanks for your humility... I always see humility as MAJESTY... For it was the HALLMARK of our Savior... and the only way to truly follow Him is with Humility.... I will answer the post later (hopefully tonite)... BTW I am going on vacation for a few weeks, (Sunday) and will review when I get back... not ignoring, just vacating... In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant... Back to top   '); //--> WillieH Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: One Word... WillieH: Hi Tall... I have 3 scriptures I would like your comment on... Considering ORIGINAL WORD MEANINGS... there is a Word that is very pivitol in considering what I preach concerning the final destiny of all... And that word is of course.... ALL.. The Word for ALL in the original Greek (Strong's Ex Concordance #3956) is "PAS"... This word is ALL inclusive... it, when it is used, ...does NOT leave out anything or anyone in the CONTEXT that it is used... In the NEW TESTAMENT... this word is used OVER and OVER repeatedly by NT authors, and when read... those reading automatically regard its meaning as ALL inclusive... for example... my first scripture is: 2 Tim 3:16... "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS..." Do you agree that the use of this word (ALL/PAS) here, means that ALL scripture is given by GOD? That ALL scripture is profitable for Doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction in righteousness? If you do, then let us proceed to the next verse (among many others) in which it is used... John 12:32... "and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me" Now, how many is this "ALL" speaking of? If you disagree that it is speaking of truly, ALL... let's proceed to my last verse... John 1:29... "Behold the Lamb of GOD that TAKETH AWAY, the sin of the WORLD." (the word translated World here is "PAS") Now, just how many sins were TAKEN AWAY? If they are TAKEN AWAY, they are NO LONGER available to be "held against"... If you disagree with this verse as well... you might as well take the Words of the Bible and toss them... for if we cannot STAND upon the ROCK, if it has such VARIANCES... if it's words cannot be determined with consistency and continuity... then how can we know when ALL is in fact, ALL, ...and when it is SOME? The truth is, that PRIDE is the issue that necessitates the varied and excuse ridden explanations that ALL sometimes means ALL and sometimes it means SOME... that is to say sometimes BLACK is BLACK, and sometimes it is WHITE... come on... These verses are but few of MANY that use this word, that use it in a way NECESSITATES that WE DEPEND on it to be ALL... It is not an option of convenience... it is either ALL or it is NOT... Anyone can argue, and anyone can disagree, but if truth knocks on your door and you don't answer, then it is your decision (via GOD's WILL) NOT to LISTEN at this time... Annihilation and Eternal torment are doctrines that are ILLOGICAL.. A being that is ALMIGHTY and IS Love... not SAVING the lives of the stupid and decieved sheep... sheep that are in fact in a battle with an adversary MUCH MORE POWERFUL than they.. and succumbed.. or, as in MOST cases, ...never even heard the decree He sent out... ...YET! The Only GOSPEL that makes SENSE.. AND is VERIFIED by Scripture, AND by the EXPERIENCE of LIFE... Anyone that is a PARENT, knows that He/she would GIVE up LIFE if necessary to SAVE and or PROTECT their offspring... no matter what that offspring has done or not done... The 3 of us could go back and forth for months, years, and get no farther than we have... I say one thing, you say another to refute.. but if you refute what I have said above and verified in scripture that its CONSISTENCY MUST be on-going, then we, in essence may be just wasting each others time... I do NOT wish to waste mine, ...I am certain you do NOT wish to waste yours... The biggest difference between you two and I is, ...that I have already traveled the road you now are upon... I was a believer in that which you preach to me! I went from ET to annihilation because it portrayed at least, a MERCIFUL aspect to GOD's Judgement... but, something remained fishy to me... so I studied and prayed and studied and prayed... then in my own words, ALOUD wished that God would save ALL... after all, none of us asked to come here... none of us have had a glimpse of Heaven or "Hell" or Judgement...How can we truly pick one or the other? It is like asking a person blind from birth what their favorite color is! ...how can this be fair? It isn't... but God IS FAIR... because He will not let even ONE of His creatures PERISH forever... Yes, He is THAT GREAT! Of course you will not believe because I say so.. and rightly so... to KNOW anything that is SPIRITUALLY TRUE, takes an HONEST and FERVENT effort! Then, in God's time, He shows each FERVENT and HONEST searcher the Truth that one is deemed to know, the truth he is deemed to preach... and brings forth the RESULTS by HIS WILL not by our efforts... (lest any man should boast) So, ...I guess what I am saying is this... if I have NOT convinced you of GOD's plan to save ALL... then you will just have to eventually experience it... or maybe I have not been CHOSEN to be the one to convey it to you... I do NOT know one way or the other... I wish neither of you any ill, and do pray and ask God's blessing according to your hearts search for Him... In JESUS ...WillieH Back to top   '); //--> spozzie Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Reply WillieH wrote: WillieH: Hi Spoz.. BTW I am going on vacation for a few weeks, (Sunday) and will review when I get back... not ignoring, just vacating... Have a great holiday... see you when you return. Steve Back to top   '); //--> WillieH Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Searching... WillieH: Hi Spozz and Tall... One thing I can say about the 2 of you... I believe both of you are searching... (unlike Eugene and others here), and when one searches... God promises that one will FIND... I know we are presently in disagreement... that's okay... it is part of the process... You 2 have a spirit that has worked with the Lord, in my life to bring about more Humility which, IMO ...IS Majesty... I thank you both for that... Just keep in mind, that NO associated writings of another can verify truth... only the Holy Spirit is able to do this... that is why the promise is from God.. we are to SEARCH the SCRIPTURES not search the writings of others... (dont get me wrong... it is profitable to read the comments of others... but the BIBLE is the ONLY AUTHORITY... others are NOT authorities... just opinions.. (including me) If you do find, via your searching that what I have been saying is truth, then you may always find me at TENTMAKER Forum (its kind of my internet home base)... I post there 4 or 5 times a week... The Lord is telling me that my work here is over... and to leave this forum... and depart from any further disagreements, leaving all here to His further work... There is one other here that I believe is searching... DAISY... a true heart for the Lord (as opposed to an opinion about the LORD) I truly from the heart wish both of you HIS TRUTH... and even though you do not see the Salvation of ALL, it WILL come to fruition.. to ALL of our delight... and the peace of this is beyond knowledge... beyond any human perception.. and its VICTORY.. total (we really couldn't expect less from the LORD) ...is COMEPLETENESS... truly COMPLETE... and LOVE loses not even ONE of His children... not even ONE SHEEP will remain LOST.... I bid you guys farewell... I do LOVE you in the Lord... and will continue to pray for you eyes to find ALL the light God intends for you to find in His time... In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant... Back to top   '); //--> tall73 Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: WilleH, if you get a chance please post the tentmaker address. God bless you. Back to top   '); //--> spozzie Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Searching... Hi WillieH Sorry to see you leave the forum. May God bless you, too, as you continue your journey. Regards Steve Back to top   '); //--> WillieH Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Tentmaker... WillieH: Hi Tall & Spozz... The tentmaker address is... http://www.tentmaker.org/smf/ Take care guys... JESUS' blessings upon you both... In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant... Back to top   '); //--> tall73 Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: One Word... WillieH wrote: John 1:29... "Behold the Lamb of GOD that TAKETH AWAY, the sin of the WORLD." (the word translated World here is "PAS") Now, just how many sins were TAKEN AWAY? If they are TAKEN AWAY, they are NO LONGER available to be "held against"... If you disagree with this verse as well... you might as well take the Words of the Bible and toss them... for if we cannot STAND upon the ROCK, if it has such VARIANCES... if it's words cannot be determined with consistency and continuity... then how can we know when ALL is in fact, ALL, ...and when it is SOME? I suppose you are already gone, but I might head over to that forum soon. Checked it out just a bit already. A quick note though, the word is the genetive form of cosmos, the usual word for earth. It is not pas. I checked the NA text, as well as the majoirty, and didn't even see any variant readings. Back to top   '); //--> WillieH Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 111 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: One Word... WillieH: Hi Tall.. I got an email concerning this post... and I stand corrected on this verse... thanks... I should've picked another for my references... did it from memory (which is the 2nd thing to go... cant remember what the 1st thing is!) Anyway... I will have to make sure in the future, not to just call them up from memory, even though it still is quite a concrete verse... feel welcome to investigate tentmaker... lots of good posting and much activity daily.. In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant... Quote: A quick note though, the word is the genetive form of cosmos, the usual word for earth. It is not pas. 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