My reminiscences of the official, church-sponsored Seventh-day Adventist forum

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aToday Discussion Forums: Adventist Life, Culture, and Practice: The Eugene Shubert thread.....reserved solely for his rantings: Archive through January 5, 2002

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By Eugene Shubert (Evangelist) on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 02:40 pm:

Re: “How could you twist that text so much? Good grief, try to play by the rules, okay?”

1 Timothy 4:1 was to have a first century fulfillment. The first century was the appointed time of the end. Time didn’t end as expected but the elements of the prophecy I cited are being fulfilled today. Ellen White applies the text to the omega of deadly heresies. That’s the end-time delusion of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. Later prophets are fully authorized to update conditional prophecy. 1 Timothy 4:1 says “some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” Ellen White says many. It’s just another update. That is playing by the rules.

Re: “Checked out your site about spiritualism.......I don't qualify for that label.”

That page contains the exact belief you affirm. Ellen White says it’s the doctrine of demons. I agree.

Eugene Shubert 

ees...are you sure you don't live in Montana? We seem to have the market on such thinking, you know.

Asides... my husband has warned me often about this. He says, "Don't be surprised if one of these days one of those people shows up on your doorstep to kill you" (in the name of the Lord, of course.)

ees, get a grip.... if you kill these people, you have denied them their right to possible repentance (if they are wrong) and if it is the slightest bit possible that you are wrong, you will have committed murder, which is an abomination in the sight of God. I'd advise putting away those thoughts.

Jesus IS Enough 

I repeat. God approves of His instrumentalities beating up certain Seventh-day Adventists.

“God’s instrumentalities are not chosen of men, or under their jurisdiction. They are to prepare a people to stand in the day of the Lord. God is a party to every transaction, and He is sinned against and misrepresented. The Lord’s powerful instrumentalities are made as a cutting sword to weaken and destroy, because those who are managing these instrumentalities possess attributes that lead them to do this.” —The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, page 411.

Which of you geniuses really believe that Ellen G. White was advocating murder?

Eugene Shubert  

People:

Enegue really believes this stuff. He really does believe that he is justified in all measures up to and including, killing others physically or by reputation.

We are not dealing with a member of normal society. We are dealing with someone who has what he believes to be an incontrovertible message from God which empowers him to use any method to eliminate the opposition.

I seriously doubt he has any intention of killing anyone, but I do not doubt that he would feel justified in doing so if he thought it would further his cause.

There are elements of both megalomania and paranoia in his writings/postings. He has an inability to interpret information in the same manner as most members of our society.

I believe this thread is likely to feed both his paranoia and his megalomania and thereby damage him further.

I would recommend closing this thread and preventing further posts by him.

Failing that, just leave this thread entirely to Enegue. He has already indicated he does not wish any inteference with his message, and if no one else will post here, then no one will be feeding his megalomania and paranoia.

Ignorance is not bliss, but in this case ignoring is the right thing.

D2 

Re: “Enegue really believes this stuff. He really does believe that he is justified in all measures up to and including, killing others physically or by reputation.”

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” Ex 20:16.

Eugene Shubert 

“How eagerly the Pharisees sought to prove Christ a deceiver! How they watched His every word, seeking to misrepresent and misinterpret all His sayings! Pride and prejudice and passion closed every avenue of the soul against the testimony of the Son of God. When He plainly rebuked their iniquity and declared that their works proved them to be the children of Satan, they angrily flung back the accusation, saying, ‘Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?’

“All the arguments urged against Christ were founded in falsehood. So was it in the case of Stephen, and of Paul. But the weakest and most unreliable statements made on the wrong side had an influence, because there were so many whose hearts were unsanctified, who desired those statements to be true. Such are ever eager to fasten upon any supposed error or mistake in those who speak to them the unpalatable truth.

“It should not surprise us when evil conjectures are greedily seized upon as undoubted facts by those who have an appetite for falsehood. The opposers of Christ were again and again confounded and put to silence by the wisdom of His words; yet they still eagerly listened to every rumor, and found some pretext to ply Him again with opposing questions. They were determined not to abandon their purpose. They well knew that if Jesus should continue His work, many would believe on Him, and the scribes and Pharisees would lose their power with the people. Hence they were ready to stoop to any base or contemptible measure to accomplish their malicious intentions against Him. They hated the Herodians, yet they joined these inveterate enemies in order to invent some plan to rid the earth of Christ.

“Such was the spirit with which the Son of God was met by those whom He came to save. Can any who are seeking to obey God, and to bear to the world the message of His truth, expect a more favorable reception than was granted Christ?

“I have no ill will toward those who are seeking to make of none effect the message which God has given to reprove, warn, and encourage His people. But as the ambassador of Christ, I must stand in defense of the truth. Who are those that so zealously array themselves against me? Are they the pure and holy children of faith? Have they been born again? Are they partakers of the divine nature? Do they love Jesus, and manifest His spirit of meekness and humility? ‘By their fruits ye shall know them’ (Matt. 7:20). Do they resemble the early disciples, or those cunning scribes and Pharisees who were constantly watching to entrap Christ in His words? Notice the sharp practice of those ancient opposers of the faith—how lawyers, priests, scribes, and rulers combined to find something against Him who was the light of the world.

“And why were they so intent upon condemning Christ? They did not love His doctrines and precepts, and they were displeased as they saw the attention of the people turned to Him and away from their former leaders.

“Human nature is human nature still. Let not those who seek to hedge up my way and destroy the influence of my words, deceive themselves with the belief that they are doing God service. They are serving another master, and they will be rewarded according to their work.” 1SM 70-72.

eeS 

A scribal insertion by the webmaster: Eugene Shubert thought that the preceding post was a perfect rebuttal to the charge of being a maniacal murderer. JR, the moderator of aToday, disallowed that defense and edited it down to the following:

Ralph, you're right--I should not joke. Truth be told, it scared the living daylights outta me when I did a double take on Eugene's post, but I guess I made light of it in the hopes of giving him a chance to say he didn't mean it the way it sounded.

It seems to me that Eugene is telling us in a round about way that he isn't physically threatening people, but Eugene, I, and I'm sure many more, would appreciate your saying outright that you meant that post metaphorically, and that you never intend to harm anyone physically.

Eugene, if you would do that, it would help a lot. Thanks.

I want you to know something, I never heard David Koresh speak in the inflammatory manner that you did above, Eugene. I would very much like to hear Sorensen's and Ulrike's take on it.

D2, I think you're right, but I hope Eugene will first make a clear and definitive statement, and that Sorensen and Ulrike will weigh in on this.

Maggie 

Could we maybe change the thread title a bit? 

I still think "rantings" fits..... Dan's idea has some merit..what do the rest of you think? ...Eugene HAS been warned, and now he's into posting copious SOP quotes, which are too extensive, and now must be deleteted, (he COULD have posted his link instead!) and frankly I don't appreciate his posting, as this laptop has a lousy mouse pad...and slows down the moderating a lot... Again, one page of quotes is ENOUGH....otherwise they get deleted!!!!!!!!

Anyway, "How bout them Cowboys?" Who'd have expected them to beat the 49'rs 

J.R.,

D2's idea is probably good at this time. Frankly, this guy is scaring the heck out of me.

PB

When I stated my thesis: “the reality that Satan has complete control of our church—manipulating things as he pleases—not allowing Adventists to be rebuked,” my intent was only to convey the importance of this thread. I’m not proposing that we eat an entire elephant all at once. I only wanted to clarify the purpose and ultimate direction of these proceedings.

I greatly appreciate your thoughtful approach in wishing to dissect and scrutinize my position in totality and in pieces. Let’s talk about presuppositions. I believe it is proper for Seventh-day Adventists to discuss open wrongdoing by church leaders and Biblical teaching about the Biblical Antichrist. From the extreme prejudice that I’ve already encountered from Ralph Blodgett, I believe that if he was the pastor of a Seventh-day Adventist church and if he found me discussing my theology with Adventists on church property, that he would call the police and have me arrested for trespassing. Do you see anything unchristian in my opinion about an Adventist Antichrist?

(Old Abe: The issue isn’t if an Adventist Antichrist is possible or not. The issue is if we can muse about it and if Adventists would be free to discuss a thesis about it in public.)

I’m reminded of an online Catholic discussion about the Adventist claim that the pope is antichrist. The Catholic reaction was about how insulting the accusation was. They said it was “like saying our Father is antichrist.” The Adventist doctrine was subsequently clarified to be that no one pope is necessarily antichrist but that the term antichrist applies to all the popes as one power. To them, it was like insulting their entire family on their Father’s side.

We expect Catholics to deal fairly with the Bible and the facts of history. When Adventists are accused of possessing and cherishing the spirit of antichrist, they respond just like the Catholics. They’re not going to hear it and they feel perfectly justified in rekindling the fires of the Inquisition.

I am all for exercising church disciple. I believe in it. More importantly, I believe every Adventist has a right to be heard by the church before he is cast out of any community, be it an online Adventist forum or a church.

I also believe it’s proper to receive and act on an accusation leveled against an elder of the church if the evidence is compelling. Scripture says, “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses” (1 Timothy 5:19 NASB).

Thanks--just a couple of questions, if you don't mind.

Eugene, how did it come to be that Satan has complete control of the SDA church when Jesus said this:

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
--Matthew 16:18

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Quote:

I was dismissed by the pastor and was told that there would be a decision made about me being allowed to continue attending church.

The pastor came to my place at 6 PM that evening to give me the news. The decision was no. A few days later I walked to the church to speak with the pastor. The pastor received me warmly and invited me into his study.

I remember telling him that his actions were worse than that of Judas because Judas at least showed a sign of remorse and hanged himself.

http://www.seventh-dayadventism.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=35&t=000002

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Delleen.......the thought is from Ellen.

I'm not one who believes everything she wrote but I love that understanding of God. That idea would allow a place in heaven for example....a teenager raised in a violent family, grows up to believe there is no God but at the end of her father's life, nurses him tenderly until his death even though he was a monster to her as a child.

Her life was hell on earth.....does she deserve eternal death too?

I'm not sure it would be fair to turn her away because she has never had a loving picture of God but was able to do the unselfish, loving thing in a trying situation. And, instead, allow through the Pearly Gates a tithe paying, sabbathkeeping vegetarion who accknowledges Christ as his/her Saviour.

I hope God has a place for both of them. 

Eugene:

As far as I know, there isn't a single Reformer in the "Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement," past or present. Furthermore, with their shameful emphasis on their inglorious past, I don't see much hope for them in the future either.

I hope I have answered your questions fully.

(underline added by Pauli Heikkinen)

Pauli:

Could it be so, that you either are ignorant on the SDA Reform Movement or are on purpose ambiguous? For example: What did you mean with the "single" in the sentece cited?

But as a proof of their existence, here is one of the many links:

in English

If you examine their beliefs and attitudes, they are surprisingly similar to yours.

In Finland that organization was officially registered in 1991 by name "Seitsemännen Päivän Adventistit Uskonpuhdistusliike".

Pauli 

Al, I thought wow!! and went over to read that verse.... and then I thought wow!! again.... 'cause how in the world can this possibly be talking about heaven or the new earth? The previous verses....(3-5) state...

"And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth."

It is then followed by YOUR verse which states...

"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

How do you say that this all fits into heaven or the new earth?

Uh Oh, I see now that I'm on ees's "hit list"... I'm not sure how I accomplished that... Hey Enegue, I'm not even a member of the SDA church so I can't POSSIBLY be of satan!!

Renie, yeah, I thought that's where the thought came from. I don't deny that God has a purpose for the little old lady who never hurt anybody in her whole life but doesn't know Jesus but I also think there's a purpose for the great commission to "Go ye therefore into all the world" and I don't think it's to bolster up OUR OWN religious experience as some would have us to think.

It took a while of studying to figure out just HOW God was going to deal with those who just had the misfortune of not being introduced to Jesus and in spite of those who say that they will become "as if they never were", I think it is a terrible thing to project onto a Mother who has just lost her firstborn babe. (It's a major reason why my Mother's Mother would never accept Adventism.)

I think that the majority of SDAs have been able to hide what God is planning to do with those people....under the IJ theory but then, as they were confounded by the great disappointment in 1844, they found themselves in a quandry because they WERE turning people off to their theology by inane statements like that...and so they had to develop the premise that "other sheep in other folds" had to mean other than the SDA fold and that in spite of the fact that the Bible says that there is "none other name under heaven given among men" (but Jesus Christ)..... there WOULD BE people who didn't even know the name of Jesus or what He has done for us....then they pick out texts like Al did in Zechariah and try to make them applicable to a time of perfection when the former things are forgotten and all tears are wiped away.

The pieces just don't fit. It seems to be another place where some say "the Bible doesn't mean what it says....what it actually means is......."

Jesus IS Enough 

I respectfully request that no one use this thread for the purpose of promoting any teaching even remotely similar in appearance to the satanic doctrines listed in the link called Super-Spiritual Spiritualism. I consider any such advocacy or discussion in my presence to be a direct violation of my deeply held religious beliefs.

It is extraordinary painful to me to be forced to witness agents of Satan promoting the doctrines of devils on my very own thread.

It is even more painful to perceive Satan’s representatives deliberately posting lengthy off-topic conversations that I that believe distract, interrupt, and ruin a clear unfolding of a very important subject.

Eugene Shubert 

Maggie,

You asked for proof of Satan’s control of the SDA church. What about Satan’s influence on this forum?

Why is it that the great majority of posts on this thread (in a moderated forum no less) have nothing at all to do with “My reminisces of the official, church-sponsored Seventh-day Adventist forum” or the rantings of Eugene Shubert or even “Satan’s Control of the Seventh-day Adventist Church?”

What’s the practical, observable difference between a literal Satan commanding his agents, saying “Do all that you can to keep Eugene Shubert from reproving and rebuking Seventh-day Adventists and exhorting them to put away their errors” and the forum moderator changing my thread title to “The Eugene Shubert thread.....reserved solely for his rantings” and then permitting agents of chaos and disorder to unquestionably distract, interrupt, and ruin a clear unfolding of the message I want to rant about?

Eugene Shubert 

Enegue:

This is an online community. No one here has their very own thread, and the threads seldom stick strictly to the original topic - in fact on many threads it is not clear anyone really knows what the original topic was!

You should not expect the forum to change its nature to suit your purposes, as honorable as they may be. You should not take it as a personal affront when the conversation wanders.

If you want to compel people to stick to your topic you must make a presentation which they find compelling. As this is almost impossible to do, I shall be surprised if you are able to succeed in this.

The only way in which you can really control the topic and prevent digressions is to develop your own website and tightly control its use. But you are probably posting here because that hasn't worked very well for you.

If one wishes a wider audience for their message, one must accept the interference that wider audience will interject into the message.

Sorry we don't live up to your expectations, but I suspect there are few who do. . .

D2 

Dan D,

If what you say is true, why the pretense of having forum rules?

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Quote:

Forum guidelines:
1.Please try to stay on the topic of the thread to which you post.
2.Treat others in the discussion as you would like to be treated.
3.Treat others in the discussion as they would like to be treated.

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Eugene, we all have 'messages' we want to 'rant' about here--that's the problem--too many chiefs and not enough Indians, but we mostly get along with each other anyhow. (Maybe we should call this 'The Ranting Forum.')

JR puts people in their own thread that he wants to...(what is it, now, that you do this for, JR, I forget?). Anyways, he's done it to several before you. First he put Razzy in his own padded cell. He even put me in one once, and of course dear old Pastor Hammond.

Why are your 'rants' more important than our 'rants'? Are you the Prophet for our days? 

JR, Your Eminence, Sir, I appeal to you as our, choke, sputter, cough, AUTHORITY, would you pul-eeeze change the name of this thread? 

Enegue:

Let's see now. . .

1. "Please try to stay on the topic of the thread to which you post." Who defines the topic of the thread? It has turned out that it is not necessarily the one who started the thread. In the case of this particular thread you rapidly became quite inflammatory and that substantially determined that this thread was going to go places you did not desire. What this thread is about nowadays is mostly you and your irritation at just about one and all. Maybe that isn't what it should be, but that's what it is.
2. "Treat others in the discussion as you would like to be treated." Most of us SDA's don't like to be told that we belong to a church which is run by Satan. If you wish to be called devilish on this forum, you certainly set the tone early on.
3. "Treat others in the discussion as they would like to be treated." Refer to number two. . .

Look, I don't think you are an evil sort. But I do think you are too certain of your own moral authority to be able to consistently engage in the kind of discourse which is typical hereabouts. I think I have seen some moderation in your tone recently and I have hope for you, but sometimes I suspect your interests would be better served if you did not use the imagery you resort to.

If you think we are all pleased with the SDA hierarchy and are interested in its defense, you need to reconsider. I believe that the SDA hierarchy suffers from a pervasive and systemic corruption (although I do not believe all the individuals in that hierarchy are corrupt).

We seem to differ in certain aspects: I try not to be so obtrusive in church because I figure that if God Himself can't clean up His church, then I certainly can't.

I do not use the rhetoric you choose to use. So I am actually welcome in my home church (which is not corrupt).

I will become a congregationalist SDA. I will resign my SDA membership at a time of my own choosing and continue to attend my home church. I will not remain a member of a corrupt organization - and since you seem to share some of my disdain for the hierarchy I would expect more or less the same of you.

I recognize the hand of EGW in establishing and reinforcing the corrupt SDA church hierarchy.

D2 

Re: “Your Eminence, Sir, I appeal to you as our, choke, sputter, cough, AUTHORITY, would you pul-eeeze change the name of this thread?”

The purpose of this thread was precisely set and properly defined in my first and second post. The intended direction is equally clear: “Satan’s Control of the Seventh-day Adventist Church?”

Eugene Shubert 

Eugene, do you just want to post your stuff, without comments from others, and without dialogue with others?

Maybe JR could allow you to do that for a time, hey? Could we just let Eugene have the floor and reiterate his points uninterrupted?

He seems to need to do that. What can it hurt to let him rebuke unmolested for awhile? 

Re: “The Eugene Shubert thread.....reserved solely for his rantings”

Dear Maggie,

What makes you think that I don’t want to debate, discuss or prove in a conversational style “Satan’s Control of the Seventh-day Adventist Church?” It may be inferred from the current thread title that this thread is not for that purpose; I’ve been saying that Satan doesn’t want me to discuss it; and it sure looks like various nefarious detractors are here to detract everyone’s attention from the topic. How did you reach your conclusion if not persuaded by the moderator’s detraction, the influence of Satan and or one of his representatives?

Eugene Shubert 

Eugene, I wanted him to change the thread title, which I never liked to begin with.

I just thought you might want to regroup for awhile from what you consider the distractions, and restate your case, at least.

But I think I'll leave this thead to the rest of you and not read it any more.

I just got an e-mail from someone telling me I was garbled and Laodicean, and that Folkenberg deserved this:

...deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
--I Corinthians 5:10

Maggie,
How can you wish someone well who is actually doing Satan's work in accusing the brethern.By doing so you are partaking in their sin.
Eugene has no basis whatever for saying the SDA church is under the control of Satan.That is just the ravings of a self righteous corrupt mind.I know many in our church who are genuine Christians whose lives are directed by the Holy Spirit and are in harmony with God. Wonderful people who love the Lord and their fellow man.

Eugene makes wild unfounded generalizations without basis whatever attributing to others the follies of his own imaginings. And yet he claioms to be SDA himself. As my late mother used to say "Its a poor excuse for a bird that Poops in its own nest".A very poor bird indeed.

Give it a rest Eugene. The modern SDA church is the apple of God's eye.It is the final church of the ages and it is doing the Lord's work under his direction. Thousands of converts are being added daily as the later rain falls again like it did at Pentacost.All your naysaying and fault finding will not delay or harm the modern SDA church and you are only making a fool of yourself.

This church is AOK so take a hike we don't need you raining on our parade. 

I wish him (to be) well, Ralph, WELL. Healed and free from all that burdens him so grievously.

well

Function: adjective

1 a : PROSPEROUS, WELL-OFF b : being in satisfactory condition or circumstances

2 : being in good standing or favor

3 : SATISFACTORY, PLEASING <all's well that ends well>

4 : ADVISABLE, DESIRABLE

5 a : free or recovered from infirmity or disease : HEALTHY <a well man> b : completely cured or healed <the wound is nearly well>

6 : pleasing or satisfactory in appearance

7 : being a cause for thankfulness : FORTUNATE <it is well that this has happened>

synonym see HEALTHY
usage see GOOD

--Mirriam Webster On-Line 

Enegue:

Please forgive me if I mis-state your position, belief, and/or training. Some of what I will be saying is speculated, extrapolated, and surmised and I admit a significant probability of error.

Ralph:

Enegue is likely a delightfully honest and sincere man who has been very thoroughly indoctrinated by the SDA theology.

He has discovered that much of his church hierarchy doesn't believe as he was taught (in some cases by them).

At the same time, he has been taught that the SDA church is God's special church (and He is, in a sense, embodied in it) and there must be a special allegiance to it if Salvation is to be achieved, both for the individual and the world.

It is also likely that Enegue believes that there are two primary and opposing forces acting in our world. God and Satan.

Now, if you believe very strongly that a particular set of theological constructs is necessary along with allegiance to the SDA church, and that the SDA church really isn't promulgating those constructs, then it is logical to conclude that Satan is frustrating God's plan of salvation by infiltrating and perverting His church.

You, OTOH, seem to believe that while allegiance to the SDA church is beneficial and that the church is vibrant and God-led, alliance with the SDA church is not necessary for salvation of either the individual or the world.

But try to understand Enegue's point of view. Since the rest of us are not steering the SDA church back to the path of righteousness, and a righteous SDA church is necessary for Salvation, then he (Enegue) must do the job. When normal discourse and a rather extensive body of papers and texts reflecting his beliefs are effectively ignored, he feels he must resort to bombast and hyperbole (am I being redundant?).

Can you imagine the frustration Enegue must feel at knowing that the SDA church is Satanic and yet he must belong to it?

Is it any real wonder that he has embarked on what is an apparently megalomaniacal and paranoid campaign to save the SDA church from the Satanic?

How irritating that the only forum which really tolerates him is filled with a bunch of brainiacs (yeah, there haven't been too many idiots who've posted on aToday) who do not accept his premises.

Myself (probably not in the brainiac category but not utterly stupid either...), I don't think God's salvation for either the individual or world are particularly linked to the SDA church. I am unconvinced that there is a real Devil. While I have theological constructs to which I cling, I doubt their necessity. Therefore I have many points of disagreement with Enegue.

But I do think there is systemic corruption within the hierarchy of the SDA church and that Enegue does have a point with his concerns.

I think Enegue can safely abandon his quest to rescue the SDA church from the Devil. God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. If all these attributes are properly applied to God, then He doesn't need us one little bit to rescue His church - and wouldn't allow His church to be corrupted in the first place.

But as long as Enegue believes SDA church membership is necessary to his salvation, it would be cruel to drive him from it - and should not be done unless very drastic conditions exist.

D2 

That was inspired, D2.

Enegue is being perfectly consistent. He is acting this whole thing out for us. He is doing us a big favor, actually, acting as our mirror, even though it's destroying him, as in a vice. So, even his posting his name backward has a certain poetic rightness to it, suggesting a mirror image.

If we ignore this mirror, no doubt we will attract even more drastic mirrors until we get it.

We should thank him. I can say that, even though I feel essentially the same way D2 does here:

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Quote:

I don't think God's salvation for either the individual or world are particularly linked to the SDA church. I am unconvinced that there is a real Devil. While I have theological constructs to which I cling, I doubt their necessity. Therefore I have many points of disagreement with Enegue.

But I do think there is systemic corruption within the hierarchy of the SDA church and that Enegue does have a point with his concerns.
--D2

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D2.......here's a cyber hug.

If Eugene was raised to believe the SDA church is God's chosen church, surpreme above all others, then I can see why he is so disenchanted and disappointed. He expects perfection in a church chosen by God to convert the world.

Eugene.......the SDA church is part God's larger church, with the same imperfections and problems as the rest of God's church.

If you look at God's people throughout the world, you will find a remarkable assortment of very wonderful people who manage to survive a very tough and scary world.

Isn't a negative and dooms-day attitude satanic?

renie 

Sorry to be so tough on Eugene; but he only deals in generalities not specifics.To say that the whole SDA church is under the control of SAtan is preposterious. There may well be individuals who do not measure up to the ideal but that does not condemn the whole organization.

It may well be that the whole church does not fit Eugene's ideal but so what; Eugene is not a judge in Israel not even ,to my knowledge an officer in the church.For there to be order and control in the church it is imperative that the general membership subordinate their views to duly constituted authority.Thus as an elder I would expect prompt obedience from a member just as I would give prompt obedience to those in authority over me.

At the present time the SDA church is hierarchial in composition While we may argue that that is not the apostolic model it is the present system and must be adhered to.If Eugene is not happy then he can go elsewhere; salvation is not and never has been dependant on denominational affiliation.So where you hold membership is a matter of fellowship and nothing else.The modern SDA church is not concerned with standards and doctrine it is concerned with success.Those that want us to stay mired in the past should lump it or leave it they have no right to be making a nusiance of themselves like Eugene and other so called reformers are doing.God is leading His church of which the SDA fellowship is a part not the whole and the SDA church is AOK not perfect perhaps but okay.

If Eugene has specifics he wants to deal with fine but generalizations won't cut it. NO WAY. 

Eugene is not a judge in Israel.
--Ralph

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Quote:

I could tell you of supernatural revelation I’ve received from the Lord and being admonished by Him in a dream through an angel but you wouldn’t believe.

But for those who can recognize revelation, they would put my name on the list of true messengers with a message.

http://www.clubadventist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000538&p=

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Dear Maggie,

I don’t mind one bit answering your questions about being a messenger with a message but wouldn’t that discussion be off-topic? And please take note of this: My theological enemies have severely misrepresented me on this thread already. I was writing about simple, easily understood “earthly things.” If they have no inclination to get earthly things straight, wouldn’t it be extremely foolish of me to place myself in a position where they would have a heyday about my assertions of spiritual things—they being prompted to do so with a convenient ready-made slur, “The Eugene Shubert thread.....reserved solely for his rantings”? I do have a claim that some might think is spectacular but I do not want to be accused of ranting about it.

The quote you cited as if allegedly from me is authentic and correct.

Eugene Shubert 

Well, Eugene, I'm not as worried about 'off-topic' as I am about 'off-rocker,' and I include myself in that possibility, of course.

Thank you for clarifying your position. If you think you are next in line after Ellen G. White, then, I think this is where I came in.

I'm not up for a new edition of the Spanish Inquisition.

Shalom.

Maggie 

This Discussion is OVER

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