My reminiscences of the official, church-sponsored Seventh-day Adventist forum

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aToday Discussion Forums: Adventist Life, Culture, and Practice: The Eugene Shubert thread.....reserved solely for his rantings: Archive through December 30, 2001

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By Eugene Shubert (Evangelist) on Sunday, December 23, 2001 - 10:12 pm:

DO SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS DESPISE PROPHETIC UTTERANCES?

Re: “Much of what is put forth in regards to the 3rd angel's message comes straight from the mouth of 'Ellen.' ”

I’m afraid that too many Adventists have bought into the idea that a study or dialogue on any message in the Spirit of Prophecy is unchristian. Do they love what the Apostle Paul said? “Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances, but examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.” 1 Thess. 5:19-21.

“Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.” 1 Corinthians 14:22.

Re: “Who is Ralph Thompson?”

Ralph Thompson is a fulfillment of prophecy: “There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic.” 1SM 48.

I have never heard a supposed SDA express such vehement contempt for Ellen White like Ralph Thompson. On a thread I surreptitiously started at VOAF with the title, The Apostasy of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Ralph Thompson (a.k.a., Old Abe) said the following:

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Quote:

If there is apostasy in the SDA church (and I am not saying there is) it is those members who turn away from the plain word of God to follow the ramblings of a 19th century peasant woman seeing visions as the result of a temporal lobe head injury and constantly contradicting herself and too confused to realize it. ...

We have more important things to do then to take seriously the negative things EGW wrote when she was in one of her black moods. If you must take EGW as your "prophet" at least concentrate on her more positive views. She did have them you know. ...

We do have a wonderful message for a dying world but you would never know it from reading this kind of crap. —Old Abe, VOAF, 07-17-2000 17:29, The Apostasy of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

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More Egw nonsense. Depending on the mood she was in the SDA church was either the apple of God's eye or going to Hell in a basket. I don't know if they knew about PMS in the mid 1800s but she sure had her share of it. —Old Abe, VOAF, 07-15-2000 17:41, The Apostasy of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

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Oh, BTW, Ralph (alias Ole Abe, Father AAbraham) happens to be a member of my church and had the sermon yesterday. He had an interesting thought saying that the SDA church wouldn't go anywhere without the Spirit of Prophecy! —Brother Laurie Mosher, posted 06-17-2001 08:11 PM.

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Oops.....looks like I spoke out of turn on that "surreptitiously started" thread Enegue. Here's Sorenson's thread... complete with mice.

Well, I'll have to agree with Sorenson here. You see, the Bible says....

"And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:19,20

and in relation to so-called prophets...

"[11] For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.

[12] Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

[13] And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

[14] I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

[15] Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

[16] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

[17] They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

[18] For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

[19] Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

[20] The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

[21] I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

[22] But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

[23] Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?

[24] Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

[25] I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

[26] How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

[27] Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

[28] The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.

[29] Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

[30] Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

[31] Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

[32] Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

[33] And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.

[34] And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.

[35] Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?

[36] And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

[37] Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?

[38] But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;

[39] Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

[40] And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten." Jeremiah 23:11-40

Ellen G. White has added burdens to the people of God that the Lord has NEVER commanded. She has stolen the words from her neighbor and has caused confusion among the congregation by her mountain tops and her valleys.

Ellen G. White never claimed to be a prophet... that is correct... what she said is that she was MORE THAN a prophet, setting herself right up there with John the Baptist and Jesus Himself.

While I sincerely believe that 'Ellen' loved the Lord.... I also sincerely believe that her followers have magnified her out of all proportion that the Lord would have them to do.

Until you can show me that 'Ellen' did NOT steal her neighbor's words and that she did NOT say "I have dreamed, I have dreamed", placing a burden upon God's people that was never put there by the hand of God through Paul and the builders of the early Christian church.... I am forced to go to the Bible itself.... for much of what 'Ellen' says..... is not IN the Bible and many times it is OPPOSED TO the Bible.

Jesus IS Enough

Oh believe me, dear enegue, I would NEVER come near your ...... eyelid.

This thread is abominable. You have taken statements out of context and made of them what you will. Outside of the above statement, I really have nothing to add to the mouse squeaks. 

Hmmm. . .

The Del Star method of evangelism. I'm not so sure this has ever been tried by the SDA church.

As best I can tell this evangelism would consist primarily of going about the town/country/nation/world loving God and each other.

Balderdash! It mustn't be done this way. Anyone who has attended one of our evangelistic series knows very well that to make a good Adventist you must beat them over the head with beasties and condemn them to hell if they don't join up. You've gotta twist facts and history to make it scarier. And it is essential that you point out that the remnant church has the Spirit of Prophecy (and ignore the fact that we only claim we had SOP - and haven't had it for well over 100 years).

Yeah, this loving business is insidious and not to be tolerated.

Delleen, I hope you feel properly ashamed for your subversive and anti-SDA thoughts of love and joy!

D2 

Mr. Shubert:

You will note that your recent message have been moved to this thread. As your behavior has become unacceptable...your are hereby restricted to limited privileges in posting, reserved solely to this thread.

Further disruptive behavior, will result in your complete removal from this forum, and your posting PRIVELEDGES removed!

“His reply was that forum rules allow him to make changes if he thought changes were necessary and that he didn’t have to explain anything.”

Oh believe me, dear Dell, you continually shove yourself up my eyelids. I therefore what to focus—at a distance, not really up close—on The Del Star Method of Evangelism. What is it?

I hear you saying that you have a right to insert yourself up my eyelids when I choose to read an exchange on a topic other than you. You are now the topic I want to consider.

Do you think it is morally justifiable for a non-Adventist to go to a Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath School class for the purpose of commandeering the planned discussion and forcibly taking it in another direction?

Catholics are offended when they have to drive past billboards on the highway which say, “THE POPE IS THE ANTICHRIST.” If Seventh-day Adventists were to follow the Dell Star Method of Evangelism (i.e., your example) wouldn’t that be like SDAs going straight into the Sunday schools of Catholic churches and, whatever the announced pre-planned discussion or study topic might be, to start bringing up Ellen G. White?

I have not taken your statements out of context. They are your statements with my sincere replies to each.

Re: “I really have nothing to add to the mouse squeaks.”

I’m not surprised. The topic is evangelism and the gospel. Your indifference is remarkably similar to another pain-giving, up-your-eyelid character whose handle was raulf7. See Disrupting Threads Devoted To Specific Discussion Topics.

eeS 

Just a note of explanation for those who would find my post to be wildly out of context.

Enegue created an entirely separate thread labeled something like, "The Del Star method of evangelism" to which he appeared to hope she would post instead of this thread.

The above sequence of Enegue, Delleen, and my own post were all in that separate thread - and now have been moved to this one.

So it was in the context of an entirely separate thread that I posted the above. (Not that it necessarily made sense on the other thread either. . .)

D2 

D2, "I" understand it... *smile* Thank you for your comments. I do feel rightly "admonished" by YOUR post.

Enegue, sorry to be "up your ...... (eyelids)" {I believe that was your term} once more.

Jesus IS Enough 

And please understand that the original title of this thread was, My reminisces of the official, church-sponsored Seventh-day Adventist forum, a subject that I believe was precisely set and properly defined in my first and second post.

eeS

Eugeneenegue--

I've been out of town and am responding to last Thursday's posts--I wasn't inslutted by your seeming to preceive me as an unedicated bumblur & rottin speler (I've been called far worse!) I was just gone, but thank you for your kind words.

You invited my post about the bogus Omega bidness by bringing up Ralph B. in that context. This kind of paranoia is getting out of hand, in my opinion.

Scary!

It's very handy to call someone an uneducated bumbler--that way lots of people won't give their arguments another thought. Those people are excellent SDA material.

Sincerely,

Baggie Mockmann 

Hi "Baggie" (gggg) Can you or Dan suggest perhaps a better title for this thread? Although I believe it really should contain the word "RANTING" LOL 

JR:

I understand your desire to use the word "ranting", but for some reason I have no such compulsion.

"Enegue's Highly Perturbed View of Fellow SDAs as Satanic Lovers of Popery (distractions unwelcome)"

That might be a little long, however.

D2 

JRL, has it come to this??? I can only say that I am honored and humbled that you have asked my counsel in this grave matter.

Presently I am distracted by my copious weeping for joy, and can scarely see to type, but surely something will come to me.

Pastor Hammond, do you have any suggestions?

BM

PS: D2--it's spelled 'preturbed,' but otherwise it's a contender, as far as I'm concerned. 

Dan,

I think that Satan’s Control of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? (distractions unwelcome) would be much better.

Thanks for your “distractions unwelcome” part. You are very generous.

eeS 

Enegue:

I'm glad I was able to contribute.

D2 

Enegue's Perverted Persuasions With No Distractions? 

Naw Del..."perverted" is hitting below the belt. I still think "ranting‘" is rather an appropriate descriptive word for his "writings" LOL

Personally I doubt he'll get the idea that it isn't so bad to "lighten up" a little, once in awhile. Didn't even EGW once say that it was ok to be at least "joyful."

But we really should leave him alone and let him post to “his” thread. 

Maggie,

I love your sense of humor and I don’t mind you teasing me. I find your intentional misspellings witty and your proposed name change very interesting. Just so no one misunderstands your post of Monday, December 24, 2001 - 10:34 am, I will post the personal email you are evidently responding to.

From: Eugene Shubert
To: Maggie Bockmann
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:40 PM
Subject: Dearest Maggie

Dearest Maggie,

I apologize if you thought that I chased you off my thread with my crude remark. Someone on the forum thought I was talking about you when I said "I can’t allow an uneducated bumbler, who can’t even spell the word Apostasy, to act as the chief prosecutor of John Harvey Kellogg."

Shortly thereafter I posted this:

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Quote:

Dan,

I was not referring to Maggie. I was referring to Å. Kaspersen, author of Ellen G. White — the Myth and the Truth. It is very clear that Maggie was not misspelling anything. She was quoting her hyperlink.

I confess that I was wrong to use the word uneducated. I should have said uninformed.

Is the word bumbler unacceptable in Christian circles? That’s someone who makes mistakes because of incompetence.

Enegue T.

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Shoot, nuthin' to forgive, eeS, dearest (this is so sudden!). (Is that "The Apostle eeS?")

But I am deeply honored and bumbled by your kind apology and concern.

We dishes it out here, and we takes it. Great fun.

Happy Christmas!

Ieggam Nnamkcob

Careful who you fraternize with there Ieggam..... he could be an apostle of the 'yloH eeS'..... of the nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more tiuseJ variety?? shhhh.....

Merry (but not exceeding 0.05g/dl) Christmas everyone!!!

Its typical Aussie Xmas weather here.....90deg, air thick with the haze and scent of burning eucalypt forest fire....just wonderful!

shalom, egreS 

No, no, you have it drawkcab, egreS!

I am the bloody tiuseJ, and I have proof positive!!!

See:

Jesuit Dialogs!! VIII
http://www.seventh-dayadventism.com/ECvsTom8.htm

90 degrees, hey that's pretty hot for Christmas. It was 73 here the other day, though. Just got snowed on a bit in Colorado.

One of my offspring showed up looking very Middle Eastern, (East L.A., that is) with a long robe, black fake beard, and with plaid Calvin Klein boxers inverted on his head, and calling himself 'Hamid,' bearing gifts like the proverbial Wise Men. Last year he had fake buck teeth and carried a real chicken and a bottle of moonshine. Is there help for this? Phil???

Shalom, and...

ee slavam rozhovzdenyah everyone!

(Does that mean, "Now y'all don't go out and get drunk and set eucalyptus forests on fire?")

Ieggam Nnamkcob
Jesuit Agent #11
[JESUIT AGENT--11 letters!]  

Maggie

From one Jesuite to another; thanks for posting the link. One would not have known just what sort of kooks we are dealing with without your link.I l;aughed until I cried when I read it.Are these guys for real or are they just pulling ones leg.I would guess it is the latter because noone would take their charges serious.

anyway thanks again you made my day. 

I feel dismay'd.....Jodi, Baggie Mockman, Ralphy, Tom, et al....everybody got mentioned except me there. pout pout..... And I thought I was the "ornery" one! sniff sniff...

I guess I'm just not fitting enough to be a Jesuite. Horay! (gggg) 

By J. R. Layman (Jrlayman) on Tuesday, December 25, 2001 - 03:43 pm:
I feel dismay'd.....Jodi, Baggie Mockman, Ralphy, Tom, et al....everybody got mentioned except me there. pout pout..... And I thought I was the "ornery" one! sniff sniff...

I guess I'm just not fitting enough to be a Jesuite. Horay! (gggg)


You feel "dismayed"....J.R.....What about me....I am the Rodney Dangerfield on this forum....

No thread set aside for me and my "rantings"....Well....there you have it.

The self proclaimed "best theologian in the SDA church today" gets no respect. Life is hard.
What did you expect, Sorensen?????

The Brinsmead 

Reading this reminded me of a verse in a Paul Simon song....

"..... why am i so soft in the middle when the rest of my life is so hard?.....

I need a photo opportunity,
I want a shot at redemption....
don't want to end up a cartoon in a cartoon graveyard....
ooommm...ooommmm.....
get that mutt away from me......"

It must be the 'silly season' (well thats what its called over here anyways) 

Re: It's very handy to call someone an uneducated bumbler--that way lots of people won't give their arguments another thought.

Maggie,

I don’t believe you can blame 'silly season' on me. I have been unrelenting in my efforts to provoke inquiry and debate. I see more than just an ordinary dismissal of carefully reasoned argument—not only here but also at Club Adventist.

I can believe that the only explanation is supernatural, if the prophecy from the original Star Trek series, where everyone has submitted to the will of Andrew and is running around screaming “festival, festival,” proves untenable. I seem to be the only one unaffected. Is there anyone else who recognizes the perfectly transparent evil of superciliousness and plain silliness around here?

Re: Those people are excellent SDA material.

I say those people have excellent anti-SDA material.

Eugene Shubert 

Re: “This kind of paranoia is getting out of hand, in my opinion.”

It’s unreasonable to argue with a remarkable fulfillment of prophecy.”

eeS 

JR, do not be dismayed, just yet anyway. I have not yet located Jesuit Dialogues I through VII, and I'm just sure you must be on there somewhere.

Baggie 

Dear Sorensen-the-meanspirited-Brinsmead,

There, there, dearie, I think you are the best SDA theologian on this forum. Honest!

Let's have a root beer and celebrate!

Maggs-the-meanspirited-Jesuit

egreS, you give a whole new meaning to the word supersillyiousness, and I like it better than the dictionary one.

Ralph, nooooo, they are not pulling your leg, unfortunately. Maybe you should go back and start over: cry until you laugh. That's what I've done, and it works fairly well, if I do (supersillyiously) say so myself.

Transparently and evil-ly yours,

Baggs 

Eugene--

Calling someone an 'uneducated bumbler' is a 'carefully reasoned argument?'

News to me.

People who accept 'carefully reasoned arguments' like that do make good SDA's, in my opinion.

All an SDA apologist has to do is a character hatchet job on dissenters, and they have, voila, neatly dispatched their opponents' arguments...they think.

Apparently it works like a charm, because the method is still being used.

If you don't realize that the 'Jesuit Dialogues' link was making a caricature of traditional Adventism, I'm at a loss to know what to say to you, Eugene. It is so extreme as to be ludicrous.

How could anyone be expected to take something this far over the edge seriously?

Maggie 

Dear Sorensen-the-meanspirited-Brinsmead,

There, there, dearie, I think you are the best SDA theologian on this forum. Honest!

Let's have a root beer and celebrate!

Maggs-the-meanspirited-Jesuit

Now, now....Maggie.....

Don't patronize me.....maybe I enjoy being hated... Did you ever think of that....

But I will take the root beer.....thank you!!!

And a happy new year to you too....
(Hurts....don't it) LOL

Sorensen 

I know you hate being patronized, Sorensen! Why do you think I do it, for pity's sake! Sheesh!

Hey--let's break open that keg, what say?

Happy New Year!!!

Mockmann

hic  

More turtles....Maggie.

I want to be acknowledged as the greatest theologian in the whole world.... so....Yertle the turtle demands more turtles.....

Hold still down there....will ya...????

Sorensen 

Watch out or Eugene will be calling you supersillyious and transparently evil next, Sorensen.

Besides--I'm the greatest theologian in the whole world, and you know it.

WindBaggs 

Landrew?

Oh, I get it...maybe. Layman + Andrew = Landrew. JR is the evil one?

Well, he is a ring-tailed tooter, fer sure, and not very even-handed, I must say. I have been 'round and 'round with him about that (I, of course, being the Perfected One, as everyone should know by now--right Sorensen?), and...sigh...I admit defeat (except for occasional forays into futility).

We're stuck with him, Eugene! I hope you grow elephant hide like everyone else and stick around.

Maybe someday you'll even grow to wuv him as much as I do.

Maggie 

Anonymous excerpt from today's e-mail:

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My take on the threads there, are that the Holy Spirit is being Quenched & Grieved away on aToday.

The one thread is just plain 'rotten'!

And you think that these Ralph's & J.R.'s will not kill folk when the Holy Spirit is totally rejected?

How J.R.'s parents would grieve, if they could know that all of their loving sacrifice, that they gave in giving him the best education that they believed in, has thus far ended like this?

Kind of reminds me of the grief that Adam & Eve must have felt with the loss of their first born!

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The Manifesto Of Reform-Minded Seventh-Day Adventists directs me to not cease my protest against bigotry, so that’s what I’m doing here.

http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/Manifesto.htm

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American Holocaust and Omega of Apostasy:

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(Branch Davidian pastor) Charles Pace is as intense as Amo, and our heads are spinning. 'In 1984,' he claims, 'I gave a study here at Mount Carmel to David's group, and explained to him from our writings and scriptures that what he was spearheading was a movement that was prophesied by our leaders, and it was called 'the Omega of Apostasy', which is the Lucifer movement within our movement...

As the biblical references pile up and threaten to overwhelm us, one in particular leaps out at me. David Koresh and his followers, Pace tells us, represent 'the ultimate Laodicean condition – they think they have all the truth, they think they have it over all the other denominations, but they are the most wretched, the most miserable, the most blind and the most naked, and it showed, right here.'

Laodicea, the last of the seven churches in the book of Revelation, was condemned for being neither hot nor cold – neither fire nor ice.

As Pastor Pace shares with us his extraordinary interpretation of what happened here, I am gripped by a terrible certainty: it will happen again. Maybe not here, maybe not with this particular sect.

But sooner or later, with some like-minded group of apocalyptic visionaries determined to short-circuit history and precipitate the end, it will happen again.

We are standing in the ashes of Waco. The very dust under our feet is composed of the charred remains of eighty martyrs, who, before being incinerated, endured a fifty-one day siege.

And this man can suggest in all seriousness that here was a community lacking in zeal.

http://cargo.ship-of-fools.com/Features98/Features/Waco2.html

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Mags

re:"How J.R.'s parents would grieve, if they could know that all of their loving sacrifice,"

Do you actually mean that Pastor "not SDA" Hammond is still reading these heretical lines? (gggg)

If truth be known, I "GRIEVED" over not being allowed to attend a NORMAL school and be a NORMAL child as I grew up. Instead I was forced to attend SUB-STANDARD schools, with LESS then qualified teachers....all in the name of EGW and her little red books! (and trying to smash them down my throat!) Frankly I prayed for deliverance from THAT particular "sacrifice" of my parents! 

Now you hush about Pastor Hammond--he's a very kind and loving person, and he's genuinely concerned about us. He prays for us. Do we pray for him???

About them sub-standard schools...I gotta idea--let's blame them for our lousy spelling, how 'bout it???!!!

Maggs

PS: Ornery as you are (OK, you are, you are, already!), I don't think you'd ever have Pastor Hammond or anyone killed, even annoying bleeding heart liberal twits. 

Mags

re:"I don't think you'd ever have Pastor Hammond or anyone killed..."

True.....but lets not tell Pastor "not SDA" Hammond. He's still hiding out in the mountains of the Carolina's (following EGW..."run to the hills....get out of the cities!") ....still believing and fearing that I'm out hunting for him (gggg)

Me....I think I have my wife almost finally almost convinced that we should move to the Mountains of Montana FINALLY (ggg). After talking it up to her for 5-6 years. (Property tax statement helps there) I found the best place yet, 460 acres, with a large meadow, forested mountain behind the house, pond, with even the potential of hydro power. Hmmm, I can dig myself a Tora Bora type hidden cave in the mountain....and then when the "National Sunday Law" takes effect....I can just go into my hidey hole. Hmmmm, maybe I can get me a "barr" with my guns then, you think? After all, even EGW spoke positively of firearms, and even little Willie went out with his trusty rifle, and shot her a duck for dinner once. Hmmmm, now if I can only figure out a way to grow soy beans in my cave....I'll be all set. I can even have a whole shelf inside my hidey cave devoted to all my little red books.

Oops, probably wouldn't work out though....as I'd be isolating myself from a source of those delicious OYSTERS Which saint Ellen loved.....and I of course follow her example! But I doubt I could get those salty little herring which she also loved so much.

Frymahideorneryscroogejr 

JR, when you were a wee laddie, were you once given a tewibble fwight by a big, mean ol' bwue oyster, and now you see them everywhere, like under every wittle pebble an' stuff?

An' it was all so tewibble that it fwied your hide, an' now you are the onery ol' Scwooge of AT? 

Naw, Maggie; It weren't the oysters. The midwife dropped jr on 'is haid when 'e were born thats y 'es like 'e is. 

Naw. . .

A high percentage of people who are forced into close proximity with physicians on a regular and prolonged basis develop a number of interesting phenomena.

These include:

1. A tendency to defensiveness.
2. Paranoia.
3. An intense dislike and disdain for authority figures.
4. An aversion to the very idea of presenting oneself for medical care.
5. Odd twitches and other tics.
6. They develop either an incredible inability to read any but the best of penmanship, or they develop the ability to read absolutely anything in any discernible language (or even totally random squiggles). If they develop the latter ability it totally hoses their spelling since they are learning to read things which are not really written and have little to do with the alphabet.

The list of difficulties is actually quite lengthy, but this will do for now. . .

Now, by profession JR has been forced into unholy associations with physicians on a regular and repeated basis.

Also, however sainted she may be, I believe JR's wife signs M.D. after her name.

I submit, therefore, that JR's ability to form semi-coherent thoughts is a remarkable tribute to his inherent mental stability (however damaged it might be). The ability to maintain any relationship of any sort is surprising enough in itself.

A simple disdain for those who might ingest Oysters is a relatively minor matter and should concern us very little.

D2 

Oops, I forgot to mention that there are a number of physicians who lurk about this forum. . .

Except for the few who are already damaged or are one of those fershlugginer physicians themselves, you are all putting yourselves at extreme risk by visiting/posting.

Run for the hills!!!!

D2 

Yikers!!! I was wondering why my iatrogenic problems seemed to be getting worse...

I'm outta here!!!


I want my mama! ^sobL^sob  

Re: “I admit I have a problem here. I still react to TSDA insistence that I am hell-bound because Ellen G. White says so. I have been very sensitized to that in my family and home church situations, but I need to let it go--it's exhausting, useless, and makes me at least as harsh as the people who are consigning me to hell. Not good.”

I have also experienced intense when-brothers-and-sisters-attack mental anguish. I’ve even suffered dreaming about it repeatedly. In my uncomfortable dreams, I’m always in some big Seventh-day Adventist church on the Sabbath, feeling that I have a perfect right to be there but feeling extremely distressed, believing that, at any time, I might be noticed by an elder of the Richardson Seventh-day Adventist church. My fear is knowing for certain that if I was seen by any one of those elders, that they would call the police and have me arrested for coming to church (which really happened) and that I would have to spend a mandatory no-questions-asked 6 months in jail. I never remember going to church in my dream; I’m just there, violating a board request and court sanctioned injunction against me being on the property. The injunction and penalty are real.

Dear Maggie,

If Seventh-day Adventists told you that you were hell-bound “because the Christian Bible says so,” would that make you feel any better?

---

Quote:

“The Manifesto Of Reform-Minded Seventh-Day Adventists directs me to not cease my protest against bigotry, so that’s what I’m doing here.”

http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/Manifesto.htm

---

Whew--I was afeared that Maggsthequeenofmean had run Mr. Eugene off for good. Or worse, that His Eminence, Mr. Flatiron, had scorched you down to a mere grease spot on the ironing board of life.

So I'm very, very happy to see you're back, and that we may actually have a conversation right here on AT--will wonders never cease?!

I just read some of your links. This is too much. This is too, too painful. This makes me cry. Someone I love more than life itself is very much like you, Eugene. Sometimes I lose it and scream at him that he is crazy, and then I hate myself for it.

I can't talk right now. Be back later.

Shalom

Maggie

Wow, Eugene--that has to be terrible mental anguish knowing that you would be arrested and sent to jail for attending church, and worse, that it would be your own people who busted you! That truly is the stuff of nightmares, for sure.

My anguish about going to church is mild, by comparison. When I go, usually when my family is home visiting, I have to drive my own vehicle, so that I don't feel 'trapped' there, and then I come in late, sit on the back row and slip out during closing prayer, and usually break into a dead run in the parking lot, counting myself lucky if I don't have to actually speak to anyone. Totally phobic. Then, it usually takes me at least a week to feel like a human being again. It's like I have PTSD about the SDA church.

Dear Maggie,

If Seventh-day Adventists told you that you were hell-bound “because the Christian Bible says so,” would that make you feel any better?
--Eugene

Maggie, it looks like we both have an interesting thesis. By all appearances it seems that you’re saying that a great number of Seventh-day Adventists are brainwashed, hypnotically following the directives of Ellen G. White. Is that as significant as what I’m saying?
--Eugene

I say that a great many who profess to be Seventh-day Adventists aren’t following the Bible or Ellen G. White (a genuine sister in Christ) but instead are following the directives of Satan. Doesn’t that make my thesis more important than yours?
--Eugene

I also think Adventism is a personality cult.

I’ve been saying that Adventists have the personality of Satan. The problem is, so great a number are controlled by Satan that it’s impossible to engage them in a debate about it.
--Eugene

Eugene if you actually think the SDA church isa personality cult of Satan why would even want to attend. And if all you do when you attend is go on like you do on this forum then I don't doubt they call the police.If I thought the Pope was the Devil I would have no right to go to mass and sound off about it making a fool of my self.

Truth is what we percieve as truth.The only absolute truth is the person of Jesus Christ all other truth is human perception where we see from the vantage point of intellect,experience and/or culture.Because all have differences in our perceptions our ideas of truth will be different not necessarily wrong just different. 

Re: If Seventh-day Adventists told you that you were hell-bound “because the Christian Bible says so,” would that make you feel any better?

I believe that the correct and most straightforward answer to this question is “NO.”

Re: “Well, as D2 so aptly put it, when SDA's talk to me about the Bible, I sort of perceive it as being bound in maroon, and lined up on the shelf with the Conflict of the Ages series, an Adventist Manifesto.”

Isn’t it time to start figuring out what the Bible really teaches—independently of the presuppositions you have been programmed into thinking are there?

Re: “Please tell me why you think (if you do) that I might be hell-bound from the Christian Bible point of view, though. I would be curious to know.”

My point wasn’t a judgment on your salvation. It was a point in logic. If Seventh-day Adventists told you that you were hell-bound “because the Christian Bible says so,” would you be turning away from the Bible as easily as you turned away from all the beautiful and truth-filled writings of Ellen G. White?

Maggie, I believe in your right to challenge the church with your thesis that a great number of Seventh-day Adventists are brainwashed, hypnotically following the directives of Ellen G. White. And I don’t mind being the primary illustration in your thesis—if you think I’m a good example of what you’re saying. No one has the right to interrupt a presentation of your claim. No one has the right to derail an unfolding discussion of your topic or ruin in any way the clarity of the proof that may follow. I was only asking for the same courtesy.

Re: “I’ve been saying that Adventists have the personality of Satan. The problem is, so great a number are controlled by Satan that it’s impossible to engage them in a debate about it.”

Why do you suppose that is?

I’m speaking from a multitude of specifics. One specific is that Satan is the ruler of this world and Seventh-day Adventists love the world and have conformed to it.

Also, I can’t deny my experience and the Spirit of Prophecy. Everywhere I go, Seventh-day Adventist leaders seek to silence me with church authorized tyrannical control, just because my message tends to incriminate them as being either asleep without discernment or as “ringleaders in apostasy and examples in indifference and in the abuse of God’s mercies.” 5T 212.

I have already testified how Alfred Akar, a teacher and board member of the Richardson Seventh-day Adventist church, wanted to make me an officer in the church. Subsequently—in the following week or so—when I told him that there was apostasy in the Richardson church, he exploded in a fit of rage. In just a few short Sabbaths after that, I was arrested for violating a board request to not come to church (trespassing) and not only was I prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, I was sued by the Texas Conference and the Richardson church. See Texas Conference Association of SDAs and Richardson Church verses Eugene Shubert. No one has refuted any part of my testimony, including statements from the Spirit of Prophecy which clearly say that these church leaders possess satanic attributes, are agents of Satan, etc.

Re: “Are Adventists worse than other churches, or are all churches controlled by Satan, do you think?”

I can’t say which church is worse but from what I hear, Satan is profoundly manifesting himself in many “Christian” churches. I’m certain that this is the time of 1 Timothy 4:1. Without a doubt, we’re in the special time of “apostasy” foretold to take place just before the end of the world (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

The very fact that Ralph Thompson expresses such vehement contempt for Ellen White as he does (cf. Sunday, December 23, 2001 - 10:12 PM) and yet is allowed to preach from an Adventist pulpit, is, I would think, another proof of my claim. Now, openly and unabashedly, he’s justifying the belief that Adventist leaders have a right to arrest believers for mentioning Bible doctrine to all who express an interest.

If you probed his beliefs further, I’m sure he would admit that no one with beliefs as startling as mine has the right to be heard openly in any church tribunal for the purposes of clarifying their view and refuting the charge of being disruptive, heretical, stubborn, etc. Please compare the expressed opinion/action of the SDA church to the following.

---

Quote:

The Directive From The Pontiff To His Legate

“The instructions communicated by the pontiff to this official were as follows:—

“ ‘We charge you to compel Luther to appear before you in person; to prosecute and reduce him to submission without delay, as soon as you shall have received this our order, he having already been declared a heretic by our dear brother Jerome, Bishop of Asculan.’ ‘If he should return to a sense of his duty, and ask pardon for so great an offense, freely and of his own accord, we give you power to receive him into the unity of the holy mother church.’ ‘If he should persist in his stubbornness, and you fail to get possession of his person, we give you power to proscribe him in all places in Germany; to put away, curse, and excommunicate all those who are attached to him, and to enjoin all Christians to shun his society.’
“The pope goes still farther, and calls upon his legate, in order entirely to root out the pestilent heresy, to excommunicate all, of whatever dignity in church or State except the emperor, who shall ‘neglect to seize the said Martin Luther and his adherents, and send them to you under proper and safe authority.’
"Here is displayed the true spirit of Romanism. Not a trace of Christian principle, or even of common justice, is to be seen in the whole document. Luther is at a great distance from Rome; he has had no opportunity to explain or defend his position; yet before his case has been investigated, he is summarily pronounced a heretic, and in the same day, exhorted, accused, judged, and condemned; and all this by the self-styled holy father, the only supreme, infallible authority in church or State! The spirit of the dragon, ‘that old serpent, which is the devil and Satan,’ is seen in this transaction. Notwithstanding his cunning, he has in his rage forgotten to be wise.” — Signs of the Times, June 28, 1883.

---

Eugene, first I'll re-quote your thread thesis, and pose a couple of questions, then I'll address some of your responses to my post above.

---

Quote:

By Eugene Shubert on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 06:31 pm:

"...the reality that Satan has complete control of our church—manipulating things as he pleases—not allowing Adventists to be rebuked."

---

A. Are you an Adventist?
B. Have you been rebuked?
C. Are you rebuking us and SDA's in general here?
D. If A, B and C are true, then Adventists, including you, are being rebuked, and Satan's control is less than 100%, it would seem.

Dearest Maggie,

Please forgive me for once again appearing rude. I did not mean to give the impression that I was singling you out. I was speaking generally and was aiming at the general aversion on the thread to the Godly principle that says “everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way” (1 Corinthians 14:40 NIV).

Eugene Shubert 

When I read all your sad experiences and memories, I feel like I am in another world. I don't find that same urgency.

I admit that I have a lot of trouble with the end-time perdictions as understood by most Adventists, but something tells me that God will be more merciful than to destroy billions of people.

I think my more relaxed viewpoint comes from the fact that I was NOT raised an Adventist. I was a Methodist until I was seventeen when my mom became and Adventist.

As a Methodist, I was encouraged to be tolerant of other religions and there was an open thinking to the possibility that other interpretations of doctrine could be right.

I was not raised in our schools, I learned that the sabbath was only ONE of the Ten Commandments, not the only one.

Somehow I escaped the discouraging message that so many of you carry as a burden. The founder of the Methodist church was looked upon as part of Methodist history (I can't even think of his name right now), but not as infallable as Ellen sometimes is thought of.

I recently shared my thoughts with a church friend and she agreed. She was'nt raised an Adventist either and her conscience doesn't crush her as it does so many.

The trap she and I get caught up in, however, is an ironic one. We sometimes feel that, since we don't feel the guilt, maybe we just aren't spiritual enough.

That feeling doesn't last too long, thankgoodness. 

Re: “I don't find that same urgency. ...something tells me that God will be more merciful than to destroy billions of people.”

Hi Irene,

It sounds to me that you believe in Super-Spiritual Spiritualism.

You seem very calm about your belief. I am deeply alarmed.

Eugene Shubert 

Eugene--no need to apologize to me, but thanks. I didn't feel that you were singling me out--I decided to go look for what you wanted to talk about originally and I realized how disrespectful of your serious desire to talk I had been because the things you said hit some of my hot buttons and I just reacted.

Regarding Renie's lack of guilt and fear, Eugene, you and I are the screwed up ones kiddo, don't you know it? It's normal, it's God's will for us to be happy and peaceful like Renie and not neurotically obsessing about displeasing God all the time, or 'fixing' God's church like you and I do. Doncha think maybe we have a touch of the 'Messiah complex' Eugene?!

You know and I know that people can go whacko over religion (need I say the name David Koresh?), and isn't it just a slight possibility that we, because of certain built-in vulnerabilities which we didn't create, may have actually gotten imbalanced to some degree in that way?

Renie's beautiful--please, please don't pathologize someone who is a thousand times better adjusted than we are! We need to sit at her feet and learn from her, it seems to me! She understands the simplicity of Christ!

Happy is good!

Maggie 

Re: “neurotically obsessing about ... 'fixing' God's church.”

Consider the words of Martin Luther as quoted by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I highlighted Luther’s comment in bold.

“How very good and pleasant it is when kindred live together in unity!” (Ps133:1). ...
The Christian cannot simply take for granted the privilege of living among other Christians. Jesus Christ lived in the midst of his enemies. In the end all his disciples abandoned him. On the cross he was all alone, surrounded by criminals and the jeering crowds. He had come for the express purpose of bringing peace to the enemies of God. So Christians, too, belong not in the seclusion of a cloistered life but in the midst of enemies. There they find their mission, their work. “To rule is to be in the midst of your enemies. And whoever will not suffer this does not want to be part of the rule of Christ; such a person wants to be among friends and sit among the roses and lilies, not with the bad people but the religious people. O you blasphemers and betrayers of Christ! If Christ had done what you are doing, who would ever have been saved?” —Dietrich Bonhoeffer Works, Volume 5, pages 27-28.

eeS 

Well, this is where it gets tricky, I think eeS.

See, I don't think for a minute that you don't have a calling and a message for people. Moses had one too, but the first thing he did was go out and slay an Egyptian. That was before he cooled his heels for forty years on the backside of the desert.

When God puts a calling on our lives, the first thing we want to do is grab the bit in our teeth and run with it. It's like trying to run our system on 220 when we're wired for 110. (Did I say that right?)

You could also say it's like seizing the archetype directly, which will burn you to the ground, which is what David Koresh did, in my opinion.

To borrow a Bill Gothard concept:

The Ways of God:

And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.

And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand.
--Exodus 4

It's hard to ignore the fact that Christ was super calm about His belief, Eugene. He managed to live as though He had no enemies.

I suspect you would admit that He had a better understanding of God than you or I.

I find myself concerned about your references to living among the enemy. I don't think that is the best way to view the human race, or your neighbors. Jesus choose to live among the precious ones. It wasn't His fault they turned against Him. Must have hurt Him terribly.

As for good old Martin Luther.......he was a mavrick all right. But he certainly didn't know it all, ie: his terrible viewpoint regarding women. The quote you share is not among his best writing, that's for sure.

As for 'super spiritual spiritualism'.....what in the heck does that mean? Deliver me from super spiritual! ! ! If anything, I am probably not spiritual enough. 

Maggie my friend, you and I are on the same page. We have come to this point from different directions but we are walking the same road together nonetheless.

You have a passion and longing that I envy. Let me sit at YOUR feet. 

Re: “Renie's beautiful--please, please don't pathologize someone who is a thousand times better adjusted than we are!”

Maggie, are you saying that a belief in Super-Spiritual Spiritualism is healthy?

Re: “Eugene, you and I are the screwed up ones kiddo, don't you know it?”

Dearest Maggie,

Please speak for yourself. I’m not the one pathologizing the Bible. Shame on you for citing a Bill Gothard concept.

Re: “I don't think for a minute that you don't have a calling and a message for people. Moses had one too, but the first thing he did was go out and slay an Egyptian. That was before he cooled his heels for forty years on the backside of the desert.”

Do you remember that Elijah slaughtered all the prophets of Baal in the Kishon Valley? (1 Kings 18:40). Why can’t I do the same? How do you know that I’m not required to slay Egyptians? What’s the difference between the prophets of Baal and the Seventh-day Adventist leadership? ... or Egyptians and worldly Adventists?

I have news for you. God approves of His instrumentalities beating up certain Seventh-day Adventists.

“God’s instrumentalities are not chosen of men, or under their jurisdiction. They are to prepare a people to stand in the day of the Lord. God is a party to every transaction, and He is sinned against and misrepresented. The Lord’s powerful instrumentalities are made as a cutting sword to weaken and destroy, because those who are managing these instrumentalities possess attributes that lead them to do this.” —The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, page 411.

Eugene Shubert 

Re: “As for 'super spiritual spiritualism'.....what in the heck does that mean?”

Answer: Click here.

Re: “Something tells me that God will be more merciful than to destroy billions of people.”

The answer is: “Deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1).

Eugene Shubert  

You're absitively, posolutely right! I should speak for myself, Eugene.

Why should I be ashamed of citing a Bill Gothard concept? Is there something wrong with the concept itself? Is everything that came forth from his pen evil?

I have news for you. God approves of His instrumentalities beating up certain Seventh-day Adventists.
--Eugene

Hold 'er, Knute, she's a rarin'!

Wait just a minute here, Eugene. I think you are sounding scary.

---

Quote:

Do you remember that Elijah slaughtered all the prophets of Baal in the Kishon Valley? (1 Kings 18:40).

Why can’t I do the same?

How do you know that I’m not required to slay Egyptians? What’s the difference between the prophets of Baal and the Seventh-day Adventist leadership? ... or Egyptians and worldly Adventists?

I have news for you. God approves of His instrumentalities beating up certain Seventh-day Adventists.
--Eugene

---

Maggie,

You should not joke about these things. Some of the kooks are nutty enough to do it.They never heard the message of Jesus to love their enemies and turn the other cheek. Never in a million years would Jesus approve of the slaughter of anyone much less the prophets of Baal. That was OT stuff that people believed for truth before God was revealed in Jesus Christ.

The trouble with Eugene and some of these other reformers is that they don't know Jesus they still think they are living in some far off time when verbal abuse and /or physical violence was acceptable. Ain't so today The gospel is a message of Love not doctrine not rules not standards and not self appointed reformers and prophets. Get real. 

Dearest Maggie,

Don’t get silly on me now.

Eugene Shubert 

Trust me, Eugene......God has not appointed you to slay any Egyptians or anyone else for that matter. Take that cross off your back.

As for 1 Timothy 4: 1. You have taken it completely out of context. Go back and read it again. The deceiving spirits are those who forbid people to marry, and order them to abstain from certain foods. They do not appreciate everything (or everyone) God has created. Those verses make it very clear that we are to be constantly joyful and thankful for what God has given to us.

How could you twist that text so much? Good grief, try to play by the rules, okay?

Checked out your site about spiritualism.......I don't qualify for that label. I know there will be those who will NOT be saved.... because they don't want to be in heaven. God won't force anyone to spend eternity with him if they don't want it, BUT, since God is in the business of saving everyone if possible, I suspect there will be billions who will stand on the sea of glass....because they want to be there.

You rationalize your violent ideas just as bin Laden justifies his.

Poor Jeremiah and Elijah. If only they knew that their actions have been the basis for almost all the wars ever fought and the hatred that divides God's children. How sad! 

What a hypocrite! Just yesterday you were justifying the agents of Satan and the papist act of arresting Christians who casually share opinions you don’t like (Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 03:04 am).

Now you’re saying, “love your enemies” unless they’re out to interpret the apostasy of the Bible. If they do that, jail them, sue them, slander them, all in God’s name! You approve of that!

Eugene Shubert

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