My reminiscences of the official, church-sponsored Seventh-day Adventist forum

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aToday Discussion Forums: Adventist Life, Culture, and Practice:  My reminisces of the official, church-sponsored Seventh-day Adventist forum: Archive through December 24, 2001

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By Enegue Trebuhs (Evangelist) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 09:29 am:

I remember how I couldn’t be myself on the old Adventist forum so I created a fictitious character to express the exact opposite of what I really believed. Many posters were downright hostile to my fanatical ultra conservative alter-ego who ranted about the infallibility of church leadership (“how dare anyone question the highest authority on earth!”). I even remember advocating the truly papist notion that the Bible should only be interpreted by those authorized by the church to do so. It’s funny. That character was never censored by RalphB. I was always censored for being myself. 

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By Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 09:48 am:

Eneque, that's hilarious, naughty but hilarious, and very telling about Adventism, I must say. J

Sometimes I'm tempted to wonder if some of the apologists around here are T.I.C., but....naw.... 

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By Enegue Trebuhs (Evangelist) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 10:22 am:

Maggie,

There are two contending philosophies at war with each other in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Those with Spiritual discernment see the value in Biblical admonitions. Those sympathetic to the prince of darkness are opposed to them and are in harmony with Satan’s purposes. The observable contrast is vivid and easy to see. For those who need the profound differences pointed out to them in terms of ordinary conduct, I highlight the will of God and the way things are:

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” 2 Timothy 4:1-2.

“Satan has laid every measure possible that nothing shall come among us as a people to reprove and rebuke us, and exhort us to put away our errors.” TM 411.

For proof of the reality that Satan has complete control of our church—manipulating things as he pleases—not allowing Adventists to be rebuked, I like to cite the extreme bigotry of Ralph Blodgett as a perfect illustration. The Manifesto Of Reform-Minded Seventh-Day Adventists directs me to not cease my protest against bigotry, so that’s what I’m doing here.

At one time I started a thread on the official Adventist forum called, Musings About An Adventist Antichrist. I posted some thoughts connecting the attack on the sanctuary in Daniel 11:31-36 to the omega heresy of the end time. Ellen White says that Daniel 11:31-36 will be repeated.

Ralph Blodgett did not change a word of my opening post but I charge him with ruining the thread at Satan’s command because he, RalphB, without a defensible reason, changed the title of it to Musings About A Future Antichrist. To an Adventist audience, a thread called Musings About A Future Antichrist is retarded, uninteresting and a practical guarantee that few will even click on it. Musings About An Adventist Antichrist is inviting and is the direction of inquiry that I set. What kind of thought control is it that we can’t even muse about the evil one in Daniel 11:30-36 being a Seventh-day Adventist and bring it up for discussion if the Spirit of Prophecy says there’s a secondary fulfillment to the Biblical text of Daniel 11:31-36? Isn’t the omega a Seventh-day Adventist heresy!

I immediately began asking for justification of that action on the thread. RalphB responded by saying that he was only an email away and that I should email him privately if I wanted an answer. I sent the email, which asked for justification of his actions. His reply was that forum rules allow him to make changes if he thought changes were necessary and that he didn’t have to explain anything. —He didn’t even hint at any reasons for his actions.

I thought the issue was clear. RalphB was obeying the directives given him by Satan and Satan didn’t want me exposing the Adventist Antichrist in a popular Adventist church forum. Isn’t it obvious that this kind of censorship is a common occurrence, that RalphB couldn’t defend his actions publicly and that he—like many other forum leaders—must resort to Gestapo-like tactics? There is nothing righteous about thought control.

I have sent Ralph Blodgett a copy of this thread so that he may defend if he cares to The Fuehrerprinzip of the Seventh-day Adventist church or the atrocities committed by him as the Fuehrer of the official Adventist forum.

Enegue Trebuhs 

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By Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 11:34 am:

Whoa, Enegue. You threw me a loop here.

That 'alpha of apostacy' stuff sounds like it was trumped up to defeat Kellogg to begin with, so the 'omega of apostacy' stuff is sort of toothless by extension, it would seem.

Not that I especially approve of Kellogg's pouring carbolic acid on little girls, and other insanities, but, to be fair, the whole milieu was pretty crazy, and it sounds like he was railroaded to me:

http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw67.htm

Pantheism, schmantheism.

Maggie 

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By Enegue Trebuhs (Evangelist) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

Dear Maggie,

I can’t allow an uneducated bumbler, who can’t even spell the word Apostasy, to act as the chief prosecutor of John Harvey Kellogg. For a definitive and truthful article on this subject, which is a step in the right direction, please consider Adventism’s Past Pantheism instead.

But aren’t you off the point of my thread anyway? 

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By DanD (Dkd) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 01:36 pm:

Eneque:

Sheesh! If you could call Maggie an uneducated bumbler, then you need to have your head examined. And I don't mean by a phrenologist!

Generally speaking, you'll look smarter and more reasonable if you operate from the assumption that the someone with whom you disagree is intelligent but is just having a bad day/moment.

There are some of us who are excellent at spelling and others who are not. Excellence in spelling is just good spelling, wisdom is priceless - I'll take wisdom any day (but am generally stuck with good spelling).

D2 

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By Enegue Trebuhs (Evangelist) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 02:16 pm:

Dan,

I was not referring to Maggie. I was referring to Å. Kaspersen, author of Ellen G. White — the Myth and the Truth. It is very clear that Maggie was not misspelling anything. She was quoting her hyperlink.

I confess that I was wrong to use the word uneducated. I should have said uninformed.

Is the word bumbler unacceptable in Christian circles? That’s someone who makes mistakes because of incompetence.

Enegue T. 

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By ralph a .thompson (Ralpht) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 02:46 pm:

Eugene Shubert I always guessed you were backward but now you have proved it by registering under your reversed name. Gee aren't you man enough to be known or are you banned from so many forums this is the only way to get on one.

Your attacks on Brother Blodgett are not justified ;he was always fair given the kooks he had to deal with. An apology would be in order.

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By Enegue Trebuhs (Evangelist) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 03:18 pm:

Ralph Thompson,

You are as wrong as ever. I had forgotten my password and as far as I could figure out, this forum is unable to remind you of it based on an email address. I tried to reregister as myself but the software said I was already registered. Besides, I like the name Enegue Trebuhs anyway. Try pronouncing it five times really fast.

On to the issues... You were always really imaginative. Try to concoct some reason to explain why I wasn’t allowed have a thread called Musings About An Adventist Antichrist on a church-financed Seventh-day Adventist forum and explain why the reason can’t be discussed publicly. Then let’s compare your imaginary answer with many other proofs that I have, all demonstrating my thesis: “the reality that Satan has complete control of our church—manipulating things as he pleases—not allowing Adventists to be rebuked.”

Enegue Trebuhs 

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By Dan Davidson (Dand) on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 03:21 pm:

Enegue:

My apologies for the misunderstanding. I am glad to discover you may not be a boor/cad/etc.

BTW, if you review a few threads hereabouts you will get the humor Ralph is exhibiting in suggesting an apology "would be in order"!

Sincerely,
Nad Nosdivad (N2)

Dan,

This one is probably my mistake. I was thinking of a Ralph Thompson that used to go by the name of Old Abe.

Does anyone want to discuss my thesis?

Enegue Trebuhs
(No, I am not extremely dyslexic) 

Eugene;

The whole idea of an Adventist Antichrist is foolishness. The SDA church has nothing to be rebuked for as it is the true remnant and completely is doing God's will.It does however seem to attract a lot of malcontents and self righteous individuals who think they have all the wisdom in the whole and who dare find fault with God's chosen leadership.

Brother Blodgett was most likely trying to keep you from making a complete a-- of yourself attacking God's remnant and possibly bringing down his wrath on your head.So rejoice that Brother Blodgett had your spiritual welfare in consideration. 

Well.....every body knows Ralph had a tough job....and his limited knowledge did not help the situation for him.

I was kicked off and warned repeatedly because I identified my self as a "Brinsmead".

Partly to incite interest and discussion....but mostly because Brinsmead was right and his opposers were wrong.

Ralph who informed me privately of all his personal qualification about theology didn't even know what the third use of the law was or its meaning or application.

Once when I posted about this subject he called it "Brimsmeadism".....

I wrote a personal letter to the GC about is conduct and behavior. And did I get a response????? What do you think???

YOu know I didn't.....

Hopefully I had a small part in causing the forum to be shut down.....at least I'll always think so and hope so.....

But.....since I am the "greatest theologian in the SDA church today".....I may have "overexpected"....

I admit the SDA church is often subject to embarassment theologically. Ignorance of our reformation heritage on law and gospel is devastating. Especially when bible Adventism is a 3rd use of the law system.

Now we find acceptance in the Christian community by accepting and articulating a non-reformation view of law and gospel that is well suited to patronize apostate Protestantism. And boy are we popular with many evangelicals.

But as a tithe paying member of the SDA church I screamed bloody murder when Ralph tried to cut me off.....

I demand a trial. How dare that pompus ass claim the authority to censor my posts while taking my tithe. Now that I won't stand for. And neither should any other member of the SDA church.

Convict me if you can....and throw me out of the church. Then censor my posts. But not as long as I support my local church and am a member in good standing....

What could they do...?????

Close the forum. Either that or try me as an apostate. I don't think they would want to tackle that job.

Now I doubt I was by any means the sole reason for the forum to be terminated. But hopefully I was one....

Still haven't heard from the GC concerning my letter. Anyone want to bet I'll ever get one????

Want me to post the letter here????

Sorensen 

Enegue:

No offense to your thesis. But I'll let someone else address it in detail.

But I would make a few small points if I might. I do not think you have sufficiently substantiated your contention that RalphB is operating at the direction of Satan. Even if one were to assume that RalphB's actions were in line with a devilish policy (and I haven't examined the issue to see) one might have to consider the possibilities of incompetence, an entirely different objective which has a result similar to that desired by Satan, etc.

You might just consider the possibility that using the word "atrocity" in conjunction with the administrative aspects of any website/forum might be excessive hyperbole. I'm not certain any website/forum is important enough to consider its administration to be an "atrocity".

Is RalphB capable of committing an "atrocity"? I can't claim to know the answer. But one must consider the possibility that your rhetoric might be a wee bit excessive.

BTW, I just want to make sure I understand what you mean by your "thesis". Is it represented in the following?

"There are two contending philosophies at war with each other in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Those with Spiritual discernment see the value in Biblical admonitions. Those sympathetic to the prince of darkness are opposed to them and are in harmony with Satan’s purposes. The observable contrast is vivid and easy to see."

If this is the case I suspect I will asssiduously avoid your proposed discussion. The language involved would tend to suggest that a free exchange of ideas would not be possible. I would expect that if I disagreed you would immediately believe that I was the servant of the devil and simply castigate rather than discuss. This would not be a discussion thread but a flame one (take it to the Thunderbolts and Insults thread - it's too quiet there right now).

D2 

Hey Bill, (the Brinsmeadite) while we don't agree much. Remember that even over there, I went to bat for you with the “Master of the Inquisition.” After he threw you off, I basically lost interest over there. And it wasn't too long after that, that the GC simply FIRED him (gggg). (forced him to take a medical retirement) ......anyway, Ralph B apparently NEVER read "Counsels on DIET" (gggg) He had what one might say is MORE then a “Conference Front.” 

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As a tithe paying member of the SDA church I screamed bloody murder when Ralph tried to cut me off.....

I demand a trial. How dare that pompus ass claim the authority to censor my posts while taking my tithe. Now that I won't stand for. And neither should any other member of the SDA church.

Convict me if you can....and throw me out of the church. Then censor my posts. But not as long as I support my local church and am a member in good standing....

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“The instructions communicated by the pontiff to this official were as follows:—
“ ‘We charge you to compel Luther to appear before you in person; to prosecute and reduce him to submission without delay, as soon as you shall have received this our order, he having already been declared a heretic by our dear brother Jerome, Bishop of Asculan.’ ‘If he should return to a sense of his duty, and ask pardon for so great an offense, freely and of his own accord, we give you power to receive him into the unity of the holy mother church.’ ‘If he should persist in his stubbornness, and you fail to get possession of his person, we give you power to proscribe him in all places in Germany; to put away, curse, and excommunicate all those who are attached to him, and to enjoin all Christians to shun his society.’
“The pope goes still farther, and calls upon his legate, in order entirely to root out the pestilent heresy, to excommunicate all, of whatever dignity in church or State except the emperor, who shall ‘neglect to seize the said Martin Luther and his adherents, and send them to you under proper and safe authority.’
“Here is displayed the true spirit of Romanism. Not a trace of Christian principle, or even of common justice, is to be seen in the whole document. Luther is at a great distance from Rome; he has had no opportunity to explain or defend his position; yet before his case has been investigated, he is summarily pronounced a heretic, and in the same day, exhorted, accused, judged, and condemned; and all this by the self-styled holy father, the only supreme, infallible authority in church or State! The spirit of the dragon, ‘that old serpent, which is the devil and Satan,’ is seen in this transaction. Notwithstanding his cunning, he has in his rage forgotten to be wise.” — Signs of the Times, June 28, 1883.

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Want me to post the letter here????

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Dan wrote:

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I just want to make sure I understand what you mean by your "thesis". Is it represented in the following?

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Enegue:

I am glad I was mistaken as to your thesis. I think there may be a basis for discussion, although I will be very surprised if you and I establish broad agreement.

First, a caveat. While I certainly do believe in a personal, living, Creator God; I am not certain that there is a real, live Satan. Therefore, when I refer to "Satan" I will be speaking of either an individual evil being or of a general evil influence/presence.

That having been said I will rephrase things a little to suit my own opinion and let you attack/differ with my own summation.

The SDA hierarchy is a corrupt system which maintains control of the church at large, using it for its own ends, and does not properly nurture its members with God's love - or chastise many of those who may require it.

This is not exactly what you said, but is in somewhat the same spirit.

D2 

Sooooo this must be the intellectual parlor eh?

You fellas can't honestly believe that anyone can have a discussion on a SDA site without being censored? Adventists are the masters. How can they keep their money flowing in if they let their people view opinions different from theirs?
I was suspended for smuggling in a copy of THE GRAPES OF WRATH in the 9th grade at church school and made to write 1000 times THE ONLY THING WE DARN HERE ARE SOCKS....because I said " darn it"..wow glad I didn't bring my Uzi to school...just my 2 cents cuz I am not smart enough to know what y'all are conversing about here...tee hee 

Dear Bill,

I would be most grateful if you posted your letter and any other documentation or evidence related to the spirit of antichrist in the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Eugene Shubert

Well.....it's not that long.....I'll do it over the week end.

And hey, JR....I know you went to bat for me over there and over here as well....

And it is true....we don't agree on much....but freedom of speech is one area we have in common.
And neither do we think a church has no authority to discipline those who oppose the church doctrine.

If it would glorify Jesus I would welcome an open trial.....but I think Jesus knows I am not ready to handle such a confrontation in the best Christian attitude.

I think I have a "superiority complex"....at least on the surface. I guess one of the most facinating things about Jesus that I admire and wish to emulate is His total unpretenousness.

Never doubted who He was. Never had anything to prove. Saw no need of self justification.

Beyond me.....If I could only appropriate the gospel like that. Total freedom.

Sorensen 

This is the open letter I wrote to the GC
Sorensen


Jan. 5, l998

To who it may concern,

I joined the on line Adventist forum in few weeks ago and entered into various discussions concerning Adventist and biblical theology. I was converted to Jesus through the ministry of Robert Brinsmead known as the "awakening" message in the 1960 through the late 70’s when he denounced all he had taught previously and started down a new road. He was influenced considerable by Dr. Desmond Ford but also by a number of other scholars, both within and outside Adventism.

I have always confessed freely that I am a "Brinsmead" concerning his early doctrine and theology and have had no biblical or Spirit of Prophecy reasons to deny it. I still confess it and would consider it a denial of Christ and His work through Robert Brinsmead to deny it. That Mr. Brinsmead abandoned his former faith has made my life in the church a little difficult at times but Jesus is more than sufficient and "truth is more precious than all besides." EGW

Since that time I have seen more theological confusion in our church than could be imagined and the fruit of it is showing up everywhere. I’ve always opposed Morris Venden’s theology of sanctification by faith alone. It is not biblical and is not supported by EGW or any viable Protestant scholar. He, by no means, is the only advocate of this false doctrine but seems to be the champion of it and his books are legion in our church. My contention is that such a doctrine is a denial of the law and its full application in the Christian experience. Ultimately, it is a denial of a judgment according to works. If Jesus does everything, why am I on trial in the judgment?

On several occasions, Ralph Blodgett, the Sysop of the forum has threatened to ban me from communicating on the form and has kept some of my comments from appearing publicly. He claims my teaching is a "false" theology but has never refuted anything I have written or even tried to. I’ve read many things that to me seems totally out of harmony with our Adventist faith but I certainly would not "censor" anyone’s comments and refuse to let them express their ideas and concepts. After all, it is an open forum and freedom of thought and expression should be encouraged. We would hardly expect every thought and idea to be acceptable to everyone.

Why are my thoughts and ideas being "censored" if it is not an obvious prejudice on his part? I consider it a great unchristian attitude on his part but often rather typical in my past experiences as a "Brinsmead" by label.

Let me comment in closing, I’m not an SDA because I was so warmly received and welcomed into church fellowship. I’m an SDA because I understand EGW and the bible and see it is in harmony with the fundament Protestant heritage of the reformation. While it is true, that Christians should be loving and kind and thoughtful and helpful and all the other wonderful Christian graces, no one will be loyal to God without a clear biblical doctrine of truth. If you joined this church primarily because the people are so wonderful, you are in for a rude awakening in the near future. Truth is no more acceptable to the carnal man today, than it was in our Lord’s day and time. The church is more carnal today than the Church of Rome in the dark ages. There is more corruption, false teaching, greed, avarice, covetousness and every evil thing.

What you do about the forum situation is your decision. Whether Ralph has continued authority to censor comments and dialogue is up to those over him. But I would remind those who have that responsibility, God will judge you and is watching even now to see if you will maintain Christian freedom and Protestant principles in the SDA church, or if you will go the way of Rome and censor free expression in an open atmosphere of discussion and dialogue.

The local church members must also decide if they will remain silent or demand and implement every available avenue to see the principle of Protestantism maintained in the local church. Congregational style of church government is rapidly increasing and our leaders are losing their authority to govern the church system because they can not discipline themselves. This is one of the reasons they are rapidly losing the respect of the spiritual minded lay members. Money is the primary, and almost sole consideration of actions taken in any decision making.

The Shaking is here and is intensifying and will continue until the end of time. The church is about to fall but God will preserve the "elect" who trust in Him. He will gather His people into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly Sanctuary and they will be preserved unto the end.

Christian regards,

Bill Sorensen


PS.....to the forum.....They never responded....I wonder why????? Duh.... 

Sorenson, while I may not agree to all things that you spoke of in your letter... one thing I will say is that it's a good letter and doesn't seem to be with malice.

While I hold RB in high regard, your experiences may not allow you to hold him in that same regard... and that's okay too. He has treated me with kindness... the only problem that I've had with him is when he quasi accepted my offer to type his new book for him (for free, of course) but when the official forum closed down and he learned my beliefs in regard to the Sabbath and the state of the dead, he has never again corresponded with me.

I don't find that to be astonishing though...quite the contrary. My experience has been that if SDAs don't agree with me, rather than talk it out, studying together, they will (even though they have never met me) attack my person. RB did not do that.... choosing rather, to just shake the dust from his shoes. (After all, can't cast your pearls before swine, you know.) So I have to have some kind of respect for him.

I don't agree with your theology either nor you with mine... but we both have placed our trust in the One Who is sufficient for all of our needs. That makes us brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus and we could at least treat each other as Children of God....rather than displaying sibling rivalry.

When you speak of the "shaking" of the church, I have to wonder how you perceive that... if the church doesn't stand for what you believe... why are you a member? Is it because you believe that the name will go through to the end?

I have an entirely different concept of "the church" in that I don't believe that it is denominationally specific but is rather, made up of believers of all time and of all denominations. It is THAT church (the one of which Jesus Christ is the head) that will go through... To hold on to membership of a specific denomination because we have been brainwashed to believe that it is the ONLY denomination that will be recognized by God, is to place ourselves squarely in the hands of deceit... worshipping, we know not what.

Jesus IS Enough 

Eugene
Your statement that " Satan has complete control of the SDA church" is a patent falsehood as is Dan's assertion that the hierarchy is corrupt.

The modern SDA church is NOT under the control of Satan my friend ; you are as you seek to undermine the remnant church of these last days.

And Bill maybe you have made a hero of Brimsmead and a saint of EGW but it is Jesus who saves and your letter to the GC was/is not even worthy of answer.And to claim credit for shutting down the orginal forum is to give yourself an importance you do not have.

The official forum was shut down because an assessment of its effectiveness to the mission of the church found it wanting.The GC made the right decision in closing down the official internet forum and using the funds for more appropiate programs.These forums allow every kook and malcontent to spread their perversions far and wide and because of that should not be supported by tithe nor offering from the official church body.

Brother blodgett was a fair and considerate person and it is unChristian to be attacking him here so take a hike. 

There may always be a fine line between "worshiping" the church....and seeing and acknowledging the God ordained instrumentality as a means of grace as being the church.

Sorensen 

You guys sound like the popes of the middle ages with your accusations and counteraccusations about the church being completely under the control of Satan (Eugene writing that charge) and Eugene being completely under the control of Satan (Ralph making the charge against Eugene.) What's next?

I agree with Bill about Brinsmead being right on, but my admiration of Brinsmead is confined to the mature Brinsmead. 

Ralph:

I stand by my assertion that the SDA hierarchy is a corrupt system. (You'll note that I do not state that all within the system are corrupt, but that the system itself is corrupt.)

I'd be pleased to hear from you how it is that the hierarchy now does as instructed by its constituency? I'd also appreciate your indicating that you can demonstrate that those who pilfer the treasury are now prosecuted - not simply given another cushy lower-profile job within the hierarchy (Folkenberg is only one example)? I am sure you will tell me that our church's financial books are now open for public perusal (or at least by its own advisory panels). Of course you will demonstrate that the church no longer uses racial quotas for hiring and allocation of resources!

My list of things you will surely do to assure me that the SDA hierarchy is no longer corrupt is actually pretty extensive (not limited to the above list). But I suspect you will not be able to demonstrate the resolution of even one of the above signs of corruption.

Until then, my assertion would appear to be quite safe.

D2 

Dan’s summation was:

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The SDA hierarchy is a corrupt system which maintains control of the church at large, using it for its own ends, and does not properly nurture its members with God's love - or chastise many of those who may require it.

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Dan,

When I stated my thesis: “the reality that Satan has complete control of our church—manipulating things as he pleases—not allowing Adventists to be rebuked,” my intent was only to convey the importance of this thread. I’m not proposing that we eat an entire elephant all at once. I only wanted to clarify the purpose and ultimate direction of these proceedings.

I greatly appreciate your thoughtful approach in wishing to dissect and scrutinize my position in totality and in pieces. Let’s talk about presuppositions. I believe it is proper for Seventh-day Adventists to discuss open wrongdoing by church leaders and Biblical teaching about the Biblical Antichrist. From the extreme prejudice that I’ve already encountered from Ralph Blodgett, I believe that if he was the pastor of a Seventh-day Adventist church and if he found me discussing my theology with Adventists on church property, that he would call the police and have me arrested for trespassing. Do you see anything unchristian in my opinion about an Adventist Antichrist?

(Old Abe: The issue isn’t if an Adventist Antichrist is possible or not. The issue is if we can muse about it and if Adventists would be free to discuss a thesis about it in public.)

I’m reminded of an online Catholic discussion about the Adventist claim that the pope is antichrist. The Catholic reaction was about how insulting the accusation was. They said it was “like saying our Father is antichrist.” The Adventist doctrine was subsequently clarified to be that no one pope is necessarily antichrist but that the term antichrist applies to all the popes as one power. To them, it was like insulting their entire family on their Father’s side.

We expect Catholics to deal fairly with the Bible and the facts of history. When Adventists are accused of possessing and cherishing the spirit of antichrist, they respond just like the Catholics. They’re not going to hear it and they feel perfectly justified in rekindling the fires of the Inquisition.

I am all for exercising church disciple. I believe in it. More importantly, I believe every Adventist has a right to be heard by the church before he is cast out of any community, be it an online Adventist forum or a church.

I also believe it’s proper to receive and act on an accusation leveled against an elder of the church if the evidence is compelling. Scripture says, “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses” (1 Timothy 5:19 NASB).

It’s now my turn to ask you a question. Accept for a moment my definition of the spirit of antichrist contained in the EGW quote I posted on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 05:58 pm. If the testimony presented by Bill Sorensen and Enegue Trebuhs is true and correct, how perfectly would you say that Ralph Blodgett has exercised the spirit of antichrist in his official capacity as the supreme and infallible judge of men’s thoughts on the old Adventist forum?

Eugene Shubert

Enegue:

I am assuming you addressed the question in your last paragraph to me. Fortunately, I cannot answer the question. I never frequented the forum in question and have no way to properly assess his performance.

D2 

Dan,

I said, “If the testimony presented by Bill Sorensen and Enegue Trebuhs is true and correct.” What other details do you need to consider? I’m not asking you to assess general performance. I’m referring to specific instances of popery.

Do you not understand popery and the given definition of antichrist?

Eugene Shubert 

To the great number of Adventists who seem very accepting of imperfect popery:

God does not approve of your approval. You aren’t even Adventists. You are papists!

True Seventh-day Adventists loathe popery.

Recall the parable of the faithful and sensible steward who is put in charge of all his Master’s servants (Luke 12:42-46). That slave would be blessed if he were to give out rations at the proper time.

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Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that slave says in his heart, “My master will be a long time in coming,” and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. —Luke 12:43-46.

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Enegue:

It may horrify you to realize this, but I don't have the context. I don't know the general tenor of the forum or its intent. I do not know the strictures, implicit and explicit, under which RalphB operated. I don't know the reaction of the various members of the forum or of RalphB's other customers.

Based on the relatively little information provided it is my guess that your post was treated inappropriately. I would further assume that there was an attempt to at least de-emphasize (if not actually suppress) opinion which was felt to be undesirable.

Equating this behavior with that of the anti-christ, however, would tend to imply an assumption that the beliefs you and Bill promulgate are being suppressed because they are the truth and are inimical to Devilish purposes.

Since I frequently disagree with Bill Sorenson's beliefs and am not so sure I will agree with you more frequently, I have difficulty with the idea that truth was suppressed for Devilish reasons. And since I am unconvinced of the existence of the Devil I have further difficulty assuming the alignment of RalphB with a creature I am not sure exists.

Look, I do not like the suppression of dissent. As long as people are polite and well behaved I think they and their opinions should be available. If your opinions were effectively made unavailable, then that is unfortunate.

But you know? There are threads present on this forum which I have started under one heading/label which have had their label changed. My posts have been moved from one thread to another when I thought it would have been better if they had stayed in their original thread. I do not ascribe evil intent to the moderators. I think they are doing the best they can to further certain interests - and that generally serves my interests as well.

Now, polite conversation doesn't usually include accusing someone of following the directives of Satan. Your language early in this thread was unnecessarily inflammatory that I really wonder just how impolite you might have been on the other forum?

BTW, I understand "popery" and "antichrist". Sheesh, you can't have as much SDA schooling as I have without knowing quite a lot about it.

What I would like to know is, taking as a given that the SDA church is under the control of an/the anti-christ and is hiring people into positions of authority those who are the servants of Satan, why do you not shake the dust from your boots and leave the church to its devices. Why don't you and Bill start your own church which will properly follow Bible theology and the dictates of EGW? Then your voices will be heard among God's people, for surely God will call all His children to worship in His church!

D2 

Dan

Any " accuser of the brethern" is doing the Devil's work if there is indeed a devil if there is no devil the accuser of the brethern is then the personificaton of evil in place of the devil.

I was a frequent poster on the former official SDA forum and a thorn in the flesh of Brother Blodgett but always found him exceeding fair and honest even when he suspended my posting priveledges on occasion.

Eugene is one of those oddball types we frequently find among SDAs who consider themselves the be all and end all of present truth.In their own narrow self righteousness the assail the brethern with all manner of wild accusations seeing Jesuites and popery at every junction.

Once their idiocacy is sufficiently revealed most moderators terminate their obnoxious behaviour.My understanding is that Eugene has been kicked off most forums including Maritime Online.The fact that he is here bad mouthing Ralph Blodgett speaks volumes about himself and the master he serves. 

Aw Ralph, why did you have to go and spoil things by being reasonable?

I would have to mostly agree with you on your first paragraph. But, of course, the definition of the "brethren" may be up for discussion - and I suspect you and I would not have the same definition as Enegue.

I can't agree with you about RalphB because I haven't seen him in action, but I really appreciate getting an alternative perspective.

I would admit to having been intrigued at Enegue's joining to immediately attack another forum and its sometime moderator. I was also fascinated by a link he provided in which he purported to be seeking a Conference Presidency!

It's very interesting that he has been kicked off a number of fora. Still, it is possible that being kicked off certain fora might recommend one. . .

I appreciate the additional information.

D2 

Hello to all!

I have spent considerable time reading the above posts. I would like to say that I was a past member of the official forum, and that I found Ralph Blodgett to be a fair person. But then he never censored my posts, either. In which case, I might have thought him unfair if he had censored my posts. But when one reads the context of this thread, it is very disappointing to note that so much backbiting is going on and all in the name of God while trying to determine who is the Adventist Antichrist, if one should exist. And I guess the only reason why I would respond is that I feel like a member of the jury with Ralph Blodgett on trial. As a member of that jury, I vote, "Not Guilty."

Now, which way to the nearest thread with some substance? Bible study anyone? 

David H. Thiele,

You don’t know what backbiting is. Nor do I expect that cannibals can understand the concept. I want a fair and open hearing.

---

Quote:

I am all for exercising church disciple. I believe in it. More importantly, I believe every Adventist has a right to be heard by the church before he is cast out of any community, be it an online Adventist forum or a church.

I also believe it’s proper to receive and act on an accusation leveled against an elder of the church if the evidence is compelling. Scripture says, “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses” (1 Timothy 5:19 NASB).

---

---

Quote:

It is an evil tactic to hastily charge someone with a crime, destroy all the evidence that could be used for a fair an open hearing and then quickly punish the alleged perpetrator without the slightest regard for due process. In your system, there is no right to appeal. It smacks of the Gestapo, popery and a complete disregard of Scripture.

Do you know nothing of the kingdom of God?

The theological error with VOAF and the Club Adventist Forum is their directive to say, ‘Good Lord, and good devil.’ Ellen White refutes this delusive belief in a powerful article. Click here.

---

After reading these postings of Eugene Shubert (who once called me the most degenerate person on the Internet), it is clear why he was booted from every forum - he's certifiable.

PB 

Paul Beach,

In a thread called Cast Your Vote for Your Favorite Degenerate at Club Adventist I voted for you. Please quote me fairly and in context. Invite everyone to Click here.

eeS

What would you like me to quote?

PB 

Enegue:

That link is a defense??!!!

D2 

I rest my case. ;) 

I say again, I wouldn’t mind it one bit if someone started a thread to attack me. As soon as all my accusers would finish, I would happily answer their petty criticisms.

The principles of justice demand that I get to present my case without interruption and distraction. My accusers have the same right.

What kind of deranged thinking does it take to justify their Nazi belief that they can justifiably ruin a thread which has been devoted to a specific discussion topic?

My disputes with Paul have a long history. To do that subject justice would involve a great deal of time and effort. If Paul wants to get off this thread and make his case elsewhere, I would be delighted.

I tried to start something like that at Club Adventist. My thread was called, “Is Paul Beach (a.k.a.?) Margaret Gray, Satan’s Agent?” It generated 6 pages before it was deleted. It lasted less than one day but I do have a copy of everything. As I recall, on about page 3, Paul Beach confessed to being Satan and asked what I was going to do about it.

What do these constant interruptions have to do with the old Adventist forum?

eeS 

re:"The principles of justice demand that I get to present my case without interruption and distraction"

I suggest then, that if you seek "Justice" that you take your case to the courts.

Mr. Beach has as much right as anyone to point out the areas of your claims which merit examination.

J.R. Layman, Forum Moderator 

Honestly, Eugene, I don't think I have an answer for you. You're quite the student and of unassailable character. I suppose my confession of being Satan himself really hurts my case since it's hard to admit to being much worse than that.

I was afraid you were going to pull that out and use the fact that I said I was Satan to totally destroy any credibility people may have had in my statement that you were certifiable.

Also, I can now admit that when said, "get thee behind me Satan," to me, it was actually meant quite literally.

This is like the part of a movie just before the end where the bad guy explains the entire plot.

Eugene, based on your clear evidence and quotations above, there is no refuting the fact that you are completely sane and of sound mind. You put your energies to the proper use, and are a credible threat to evil-doers of all kinds.

The only thing that puzzles me is why you interrupted your own thread and then asked, "What do these constant interruptions have to do with the old Adventist forum?"

Someday, Eugene, the whole world will be at the place where they can decide for themselves whether or not you are a french fry short of a Happy Meal. But in the face of the overwhelming piles of evidence that you so generously (and, perhaps "laxly") bestow on us, they will have no alternative but to acknowledge your sanity, or be provided with so much evidence that the weight eventually crushes them.

Paul 

Ralph:

re:"Eugene is one of those oddball types we frequently find among SDAs who consider themselves the be all and end all of present truth.In their own narrow self righteousness the assail the brethern with all manner of wild accusations seeing Jesuites and popery at every junction."

We're well aware of that and are allowing for the time being, this discussion to go forward but are monitoring it closely. If Mr. Schubert breaks into "Character" as he has in other places. The response will be accordingly. While we try to be tolerant here...toleration can only go so far. BTW, even I, never got thrown off of Ralphy's forum LOL. Douggie, Bill and you, are some of the well known names who hold that distinctive HONOR....LOL.

J.R. 

Re: “Your language early in this thread was unnecessarily inflammatory that I really wonder just how impolite you might have been on the other forum?”

You regard my first 3 paragraphs on my second post (Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 10:22 am) as inflammatory. I regard it as a tautology.

Re: “Polite conversation doesn't usually include accusing someone of following the directives of Satan.”

---

Quote:

What kind of thought control is it that we can’t even muse about the evil one in Daniel 11:30-36 being a Seventh-day Adventist and bring it up for discussion if the Spirit of Prophecy says there’s a secondary fulfillment to the Biblical text of Daniel 11:31-36? Isn’t the omega a Seventh-day Adventist heresy!

I immediately began asking for justification of that action on the thread. RalphB responded by saying that he was only an email away and that I should email him privately if I wanted an answer. I sent the email, which asked for justification of his actions. His reply was that forum rules allow him to make changes if he thought changes were necessary and that he didn’t have to explain anything. —He didn’t even hint at any reasons for his actions.

---

Eugene;
Apply the above quote to yourself and act accordingly. 

Ralph Thompson,

I have exerted a great effort to be as open as day but the powers of darkness don’t like it.

eeS

Re: “Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil.”

Ralph Thompson,

I don’t believe that you have the slightest clue as to what this quote means.

eeS 

J.R.

I don't know this Eugene or Enegue person personally. But apparently I got kicked off Ralph Blodgett's jury. Seems that he doesn't want a jury that will acquit old RB. Doesn't want a hanged jury, unless the hanging includes this "Corinthian". Seems to me that he has displayed his character. I say, "Show the guy the door." Apparently he doesn't understand the passage, "Vengence is mine, saith the Lord."

So where is the Bible study being held, anyway? 

So David what kind of a Bible study do you want.Start a new thread and let Eugene write to himself.JR don't kick the poor guy off that only reinforces his martyr complex.Let him ramble as he is not for real anyway.As a good Jesuite I have nothing to fear from him and neither have you but then maybe you do as you are more heretic than Jesuite(gggggg) 

Well Ralph, Now you finally admit your a "Jesuite" (gggg). And Paul has admitted that he's the "devil". Just think of all the ammunition that your providing EeS for his court battle,(where he'll use his preemptory challenge to have David T, removed from the jury).

I had thought of perhaps saying that I'm the "Nazi Enforcer" around here. But thought better of it, as he'd only add that to his ranting (gggg) Anyway, just finished a book about "The Canadians" Ready for another round on that score? LOL 

When you speak of the "shaking" of the church, I have to wonder how you perceive that... if the church doesn't stand for what you believe... why are you a member? Is it because you believe that the name will go through to the end?"


That's right, Del....

Our name is infallible..... Jesus is a SDA.

Sorensen 

And Bill maybe you have made a hero of Brimsmead and a saint of EGW but it is Jesus who saves and your letter to the GC was/is not even worthy of answer.And to claim credit for shutting down the orginal forum is to give yourself an importance you do not have."

Well....mr. Thompson......I never suggested that I was the only factor.....or....even the main reason the forum was shut down....

Maybe you should read what is posted before making "off the wall" comments....
Might be a new experience for you....

Sorensen 

It is more than certain that the real antichrist will arise out of the SDA movement.

Who are these so-called believers that EGW refers to as the ones who are the worst enemies of the truth??????

Church members...no doubt. And who will turn us over to the civil authorities?????

Apostate SDA's.

Sorensen 

"It is more than certain that the real antichrist will arise out of the SDA movement."

Well, at least we fellow Jesuits can sleep easier:-) 

JR:

This is an entertaining thread and I am rather enjoying it.

Unfortunately, it seems to be magnifying certain mental states in certain individuals. I do not choose to specify the individuals or the specifics for each.

My concern is that it may be cruel and injurious to those individuals to allow this discussion to continue (although they are unlikely to realize this). It might be wise to lock it up or delete it.

Be that as it may, I am sure I will continue to be fascinated by the opportunity to observe the deterioration if you believe it wise to allow it to continue. Unfortunately, while there is a certain beauty to watching such things unfold, there is pain as well. . .

Do as you see fit, but I believe closing the thread would be compassionate.

If you do this, you and I can both expect to be attacked vociferously. I'll be attacked in any case. But sometimes accomodation is cruelty, and enabling may be evil.

D2 

When it comes to "the shaking", I've placed a page on the net and I invite you to visit that page. Sorenson, there is NOTHING infallible but God. Go ahead, look at my page and then you can criticize.

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/mamachic/1991shaking.html

Jesus IS Enough

Re: “Sometimes accommodation is cruelty, and enabling may be evil.”

Sometimes the mentally disabled are cruel but evil is never accommodating.

One thing enabling is the forum guidelines. Were these rules written in order of importance?

Forum guidelines:
1. Please try to stay on the topic of the thread to which you post.
2. Treat others in the discussion as you would like to be treated.

Re: “If the testimony presented by Bill Sorensen and Enegue Trebuhs is true and correct, how perfectly would you say that Ralph Blodgett has exercised the spirit of antichrist in his official capacity as the supreme and infallible judge of men’s thoughts on the old Adventist forum?”

Isn’t this a trick question? It says that Ralph Blodgett was a pope and that his duly appointed job was the supreme and infallible judge of men’s thoughts on the old Adventist forum. There was no right to openly discuss any of his judgments. Isn’t that the spirit of antichrist?

Re: “BTW, I understand "popery" and "antichrist". Sheesh, you can't have as much SDA schooling as I have without knowing quite a lot about it.”

You are obviously completely in the dark about popery if you don’t even recognize antichrist speaking in some of your own propositions.

eeS 

By Delleen Starner (Delstar) on Saturday, December 22, 2001 - 11:13 pm:
When it comes to "the shaking", I've placed a page on the net and I invite you to visit that page. Sorenson, there is NOTHING infallible but God. Go ahead, look at my page and then you can criticize."

Del....God has declared His word infallible....in that "It is impossible for God to lie" Heb.

Therefore....I can trust what He says as readily as know that He is true and infallible in His person.

And the scripture is called the word of God for this very purpose and reason. It is infallible and non-breakable. The doctrines EGW expresses are verified by the bible. The bible supports SDA doctrine....Jesus is an SDA.

Sorensen 

To Seventh-day Adventists who are as completely in the dark about popery as is Ralph Blodgett, Del Star, David H. Thiele, Dan Davidson, Ralph Thompson, Paul Beach, Elaine Nelson, and the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, this is important. You all need to prayerfully read the six part series, The Third Angel’s Message Illustrated by its Application to Seventh-day Adventists.

Bill,

I’m surprised by you wasting time arguing with Del Star about items which are not the purpose of this thread and you being so completely distracted from a subject so mighty as the third angel’s message.

eeS 

Eugene, Actually I thought your message “How do I get the job of Conference President in the SDA Church?”

Re:“I am seeking the position of SDA Conference President (Bishop/Arch-Bishop/Cardinal/Pope..whatever title is available) in a specific Conference. I want the job of a current conference president who is rejected by the Counsel of the True Witness. How should I go about demonstrating that a replacement is necessary and then reveal my impeccable qualifications without looking arrogant and conceited?” Eugene Shubert

Was much more interesting, as to your personal goals and aspirations. As I'm positively sure that your qualifications are "impeccable". 

eeS, that's the beauty about this forum.... we can speak of whatever comes to our minds.

Bill, I agree. I get confused as to who believes the Bible is true and who doesn't. I was amazed the first time I read something like that but I guess I'm never too old to learn.

However, time and again, the words of EGW have been proven to NOT be in the Bible and we have to do a lot of stretch and compromise to begin to see how she might have gotten some of the ideas she had... She is NOT a "thus sayeth the Lord" and I believe that she will have (as will those who have promoted her writings) a lot to answer for before God as to the divisions she created within the church.

I'm not meaning to turn this into an 'Ellen' thread but eeS, there IS a forum that demands one not venture at all from the topic.. which makes for myopic reasoning but if that's the way you want it, I would suggest you bring up this subject on THAT forum... otherwise, just accept where the Spirit leads on THIS forum....

I was looking for some information on the net today Bill, and I came upon a website which, while ridiculous in its portrayal of SDAs, DID say something that is entirely true....

It is NOT how many times a prophet is right that counts...but how many times they are wrong. If they claim to be from the Lord... then 99.9% right doesn't "hack it"... they must be 100% right or they are NOT FROM THE LORD.

So I have some real problems when 'Ellen' is stuffed down my throat. Especially when the wrongs are pointed out and someone says, "She wasn't infallible, you know".... but as YOU pointed out, the word of God IS infallible. It is God Himself.

Yes, she had some good things to offer and if she were put in the position of pastoral, rather than prophetic, there are many who would benefit from things she has said.

Now eeS, (reminds me of a mouse squeak...isn't there some other way to address you?)... much of what is put forth in regards to the 3rd angel's message comes straight from the mouth of 'Ellen', the "sometimes" prophet. Therefore, anything that is not accompanied by a "thus sayeth the Lord" from Scripture is nullified by 'Ellen's' "sometimes".

Jesus IS Enough 

Dell

Is every word in the Bible inspired?Take for example the recorded conversation of Job's three friends.God himself said that they had not spoken aright so one must conclude that their words were not inspired by God. Now some scribe or Moses or whoever may have been inspired to write down the dialogue but does that make the words inspired in the sense of being truthful.

And the same goes with the historical books was the writer inspired to record certain data of Israel's history and omit other thiongs or was every deed done inspired by God.

Was Tamar inspired to decieve Judah or was the writer inspired to record the family gossip or was there some important element in the story that helps us understand Jesus' background a little better.

And the questions go on and on.When we say the Bible is inspired and infallible do we include the words not spoken aright and how do we know what wasn't spoken aright.

In a similar sense was EGW inspired to copy certain other writers, were the other writers inspired so the words copied are "truth".

We get into all sorts of problems if we carry the notion of inerrancy to excess.Are paraphrased Bibles were the orginal ideas are reexpressed by by some one else as "inspired " as the orginal. 

"We get into all sorts of problems if we carry the notion of inerrancy to excess"....
-------------------------------------------------
actually, one doesn't have to look very far afield to come up with questions which the old forum, and the current "safe" forum are unable or unwilling to consider, such as.....

if Jesus was born of a virgin, why does his geneology trace back thru his "father" Joseph?

And just who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

does EGW shed any "light" on this problem? 

Dear Dell,

Since you have so much to say that is irrelevant to the specified topic, I created two new threads just for you. You are now enabled to focus on you and vent your hatred of EGW to your hearts content. What a great forum! Please go to The Del Star Method of Evangelism and DO SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS DESPISE PROPHETIC UTTERANCES? Your threads are ready.

eeS 

Oh eeS, I'm overwhelmed!! This must me Christianity in action, wouldn't you think? I mean for you to go out of your way to do this for little ol' me!!

One thing that bothers me though... is that you had gotten onto Sorenson in the first place but now you haven't seen fit to give him a thread of his own too. I don't want anyone to think you are playing favorites here.

It was also obvious to me that neither you nor Sorenson have viewed my page on the shaking.... for if you had.... it would have put an end to this discussion before it ever began... but then you couldn't know that unless I told you....huh?

Jesus IS Enough 

Del
Don't get too puffed up he gave me a special thread too.Eugene is getting generous in his old age or else wants us to go elsewhere so we won't be here to refute his nonsense.

Isn't the Internet wonderful; every kook in the world can instantly disseminate his/her inanities worldwide.

Good show, what?

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