A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:28 pm Post subject: Daniel
Daniel is not meant to be understood with just the Bible. Somewhere in the last few chapters (12 I think) it says that the book of Daniel would be sealed up until the last days.
Therefore, there is some way, made available during the times before Jesus Second Coming, that will assist in our understanding of Daniel.
As for the 144,000 - they are all men, they are not a mixture of the righteous men and women chosen to enter heaven (as some suppose), but are rather, an elect group of men (priesthood holders no doubt) that will assist the Lord with the administration of His kingdom on earth. _________________ "knit together in love"
Therefore, there is some way, made available during the times before Jesus Second Coming, that will assist in our understanding of Daniel.
RedAngel wrote:
I 'm pretty sure Daniel's full interpretation is just about due to come.
RedAngel, could you list some of the most baffling and mysterious things in the book of Daniel that you don’t understand and for which you believe more light is about to come?
Tho facinating and appealing deep study of Daniel is, it seems to me a mute point to try and "unlock" and sealed book until God Himself decides when we are to understand its full meaning.
Daniel 12:4 says the book of Daniel would be sealed "even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased"
To claim a prophetic understanding of all of Daniel before the Lord's time.... is .. well.. dangerous. _________________ "knit together in love"
I was being nice to RedAngel because she isn’t an Adventist. If you noticed, she didn’t have an answer for when we should expect to start understanding Daniel.
As for the 144,000 - they are all men, they are not a mixture of the righteous men and women chosen to enter heaven (as some suppose), but are rather, an elect group of men (priesthood holders no doubt) that will assist the Lord with the administration of His kingdom on earth.
From KJV:
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser... Of the tribe of Naphtali...Of the tribe of Manasses...
...Of the tribe of Simeon... Of the tribe of Levi...Of the tribe of Issachar...Of the tribe of Zebulun...Of the tribe of Joseph...were sealed twelve thousand. (EDITED FOR SIZE)
Hmmm...
Does the number "144,000" represent an elect group of people,
or is it a figurative number that demonstrated fullness?
I think the latter.
Look at it.
12 x 12 x 1000.
12 times 12. The perfect square.
Made all the more perfect and vast by multiplying by 1000.
A huge number - but not an infinite number - which demonstrates that although the hope is to save ALL - some will no doubt be left behind.
The finite nature of the number doesn't suggest to me that the number of "saved" will be limited or constrained by God's choice, or reserved for the learned or priveliged.
On the contrary - It represents a vast number that would suggest that the number to be saved is great, though not unlimited, and that the choice is our's.
A point that is stressed here :
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation is one of my favorite books as well.
Hopefully this will give us plenty to talk about. (Understatement!!)
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 14 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:46 am Post subject:
With regard to the 144,000 - they are confirmed as men because the Scripture notes that they "did not defile themselves with women". Besides, I thought that the 144,000 were Israelites?
You'll have to forgive any ignorance in my posting as I'm new to the forum and late to this discussion. And slighlty daunted. _________________ And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:23.
As for the 144,000 - At least, the maleness thereof, that is somewhat half true and half false. Those familiar with Adventism are aware of a church being represented as a woman in prophecy; Those who are not simply need recall the many and varied references to the "Bride of Christ" as His church. Therefore, undefiled with women would mean undefiled with false churches, false organizations.
The reason I say it is "half true" is because the 144,000 follows the numbering patterns of the census' of literal Israel. Now, wether the number 144,000 is a literal count or representative of something similar to what was stated before, we do not know yet. What we do know is that, following the patterns of Israel, if it is literal it is 144,000 men, plus women and children.
To illisustrate/clarify a bit... When a census was taken of Israel, only the men were numbered. Women and children were still *part* of Israel, that group, that nation, but they were not marked on paper as counting towards the number. Likewise, there will be women and children in the *group* of the 144,000, simply not numbered *as* the 144,000.... Summarized, it is 144,000 not counting women and children. If literal.
Joined: 29 Aug 2003 Posts: 136 Location: JAMAICA, WEST INDIES
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:11 am Post subject:
Dear Lucan,
As you are aware, there are some things that you and I don't agree on, but I must say that you have gotten it mostly right this time about the 144, 000, as you have expressed about them above. I do believe though that the 144, 000, under the new dispensation of grace, in which "there is neither male nor female", while the Apocalyse 'borrowed' Old Testament census imagery as a symbol, it is NOT 144,000 plus women and children, but is rather INCLUSIVE of them, SINCE THE NUMBER REPRESENTS THE TRUE "BRIDE OF CHRIST" (an all encompassing term) IN THE LAST DAYS!! _________________ Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)
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I thought this was the time of the end, as of 1844
