A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: Settled into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually?
Ellen G. White wrote:
There is a spirit of desperation, of war and bloodshed, and that spirit will increase until the very close of time. Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads,--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved,--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning, that we may know what is coming. Ms 173, 1902.
Nic,
You're making the abortion issue the decisive test of all truth. You are definitely imbalanced. Jesus didn't attack pagans and their practices. Jesus condemned the hypocrisy of Seventh-day Adventists. [1].
The followers of A. Graham Maxwell are greatly deceived to think they are following the truth. It's a rule of this ministry to not allow them to promote their issues on our high mountain or midheaven forums. The Reichpublicans are not the moral superiors of Democrats.
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: The Sabbath & the Seal of God
If I am inbalanced, then Jesus must have been inbalanced as well, because he stated in Matthew 25 that the way we treat the least will determine our eternal destiny [unless we repent, of course]. Can you identify any members of humanity who deserve the "the least" label better than the unborn? I can't.
The Sabbath is the seal of God. Nevertheless, the Bible teaches that the Sabbath is a sign. A sign is worthless, unless it points to what it represents. You can't divorce the seal of God from holyness, and holyness is connected with the reverence for God's Commandments, and one of them states clearly: "You shall not murder."
In sticking to the Bible, I am following the example of the Noble Bereans who went home to search the Scriptures for themselves, instead of accepting without questioning what the preacher had told them.
We live in a secular society that passively (but overwhelmingly) accepts abortion in the first trimester. I approve of all possible strategies that reduce the number of abortions. I support all churches that follow Christ and encourage them to disfellowship members for embracing the spirit of the world. I don't expect a Maxwell follower to understand this but your rants are repulsive and Christ wants us to win souls by possessing His Spirit.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Sabbath & the Seal of God
Hi Nic
Nic Samojluk wrote:
According to my Bible the Sabbath is a sign or symbol of our allegiance to God. In Exodus 31: 13, I find the following statement:
Quote:
You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you ... so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
The Exodus 31:13 text was written to Israel. This text is saying that the Sabbath would be a sign between God and Israel. If you insist on this command to Israel being binding on Christians now then you should also keep all of the commandments of God in Exodus. This is your beginning premise and affects the rest of your argument.
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And in Ephesians 4:30 we find this other statement which connects our holyness, or sanctification with the Holy Spirit:
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Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
This verse does not mention sanctification (although I agree the HS produces sanctification in us). Also note the past tense of this verse -- Paul is saying that his audience were sealed for the day of redemption -- something that has already occurred for them.
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Then we have a text in Revelation 7:3, which talks about the sealing of God's people:
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Hurt not the earth ... till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Surely this passage teaches that God knows who are his people and will protect them from harm. It doesn't explicitly mention the Sabbath.
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And finally we find in Revelation 12: 17 that those that were sealed and became part of God's Remnant were persecuted by the dragon:
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And the dragon was wroth with the ... remnant ... which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
These Bible verses show us that the Sabbath, the Seal of God, the Holy Spirit, and the keeping of God's Commandments are all connected into a one unity.
I disagree that these verses show what you are suggesting. You have assumed that God's commandments spoken about in Revelation are equivalent to God's commandments spoken to Israel. If this is true then you should be concluding that all of God's commandments in the Mosaic covenant are binding. You should then conclude that the seal of God is the keeping of all those commandments.
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The Sabbath is God's seal, which the Holy Spirit imprints on our foreheads [or minds] and is made visible by our keeping of God's commandments;
None of these verses speak specifically about the Sabbath being the seal of God. This conclusion requires a series of assumptions that, in my view, you haven't demonstrated to be true.
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and do not forget that one of those commandments says: "You shall not murder." I define murder as taking the life of an innocent human being. If you agree with me that the unborn is a human being, then we are in perfect agreement.
This argument seems to me to confirm that you are seeing all of God's commandments to be part of the seal of God. And yet you say the Sabbath is the seal. There seems to be an inconsistency here.
Actually I agree that it is the Holy Spirit, and not the Sabbath that is the Seal of God. And I also believe that God's law is in fact involved in the seal. In fact, walking in the Spirit is how a Christian keeps the law.
Some may object, but I hope to demonstrate the above claims from scripture:
First of all the sealing is mentioned in a few places, I already noted the main ones, Ezekiel's vision, and Revelation 7 and 14. Also the Holy Spirit sealed us for the day of redemption. It is a down payment guaranteeing what is to come, according to the text already cited in Ephesians. In all of the texts about the sealing the key issue was that the people were COMPLETELY dedicated to God. In all but the text in Ephesians there was also a reference to His commandments, and obeying his Will. In fact Paul goes on to talk about Godly living later in Ephesians also, in chapters 4 and 5, so I don't see that he divorces it from this context either. This is obviously more than just keeping the Sabbath, though the Sabbath was included. The reason that the Sabbath will be a key in the last days is because it is an outward sign of loyalty when others are not holding fast to all of God's commandments, as reflected in the 10 commandments.
Now onto showing that in fact God requires the keeping of His commandments, and the Spirit enables it. The two key books involved in this discussion are Galatians and Romans, as both speak very much on the subject of walking in the Spirit, or keeping the spirit and not the written code.
I will start with Romans. In Romans 1-3:21 Paul covers the failure of all men to keep God's law. Everyone is condemned, but God has made a new means of salvation, grace, apart from law, which is made possible by Jesus' death. Then in chapters 3:21-5 he goes over the ground of Abraham and David not saved by works, Jesus the new Adam, etc. These are all focused on Justification. However, in chapter 6 he takes a turn towards sanctification. He covers the slavery to sin, in chapter 6, and how we should not as Christians submit to the old master. But then in chapter 7 he hits a note of despair, describing the inability of the natural man to keep the law. In fact though, this whole chapter is a DEFENSE of the 10 commandment law.
Since this and the next are key chapters we will look at them in more detail.
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RO 7:1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
RO 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
This passage is similar to chapter 6 where Paul says that we died to the old slave master of sin, and are now free from him. This is saying that we are now freed from the passions aroused by the law. Previously we were married to the law. Now, because we died to Christ, we are being married to a new spouse, to Christ. Paul, in his previous life as a pharisee, was married to the law. It was both his goal and his curse, because he dedicated his life to keeping it, but it condemned him because he could not keep it perfectly. It was a slave master. But now he was free from the burden of the law, and served Christ, the new spouse, willingly. Note he does not say we are free from the law completely. He says we are free from the law as a master (for the husband was a master in those days), to serve a new master in the new way of the Spirit (willingly, with the heart), rather than in the cold formalism of the written code.
Now it clearly says we are released from the law, but it will soon be clear (and should be from chapter 6 already) that this does not remove our obligation to keep the law, but simply means that keeping the law through Christ is not a burden (even John says that His commands are not burdensome). Instead we go beyond the letter to keep the spirit in a new way, willingly.
Chapter 6 makes clear Paul's view of continued sinning when he says:
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RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Paul is not here changing his mind. But the difference is that before the law aroused passions in us by telling us we couldn't have what we wanted. We resented the law and its bondage. Now we are living for a new master and we naturally do what pleases Him.
Paul is aware that what he has just said will be challenged because it sounds like he is saying there is a problem with the law. He now goes on to defend the law. The problem is not with the law but with US!
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RO 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. RO 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
Paul makes it clear here that the law is not the problem. The law is not bad. In fact, he says that it serves a very important purpose of REVEALING sin. Note also please that he makes it clear that he feels the ten commandment law in particular is good because he makes reference to the 10th commandment when he says that the law states not to covet.
He then says that sin seized the law, which was good, and used it to produce all kinds of covetous desires. The sinful nature, when it hears it can't have something, reacts. Just ask my 2 year old! He says that it was sin, using the commandments, that put him to death, and affirms that the law itself is holy, righteous and good. In other words, the law is not the problem, sin is the problem. The law is a revelation of God's will that points out sin. If we were not sinning, it would be life giving, not life condemning. Therefore God does not get rid of His law, but our sin. He also wants to get rid of our sinful nature through His Spirit so we can KEEP His law.
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RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Paul here goes on to further demonstrate the problem...sin is not the problem, we are. He says the law is Spiritual, but he is not. He agrees that the law is good. But every time he tries to keep it he can't. He finds that it his sinful nature living in him that keeps him from obeying God.
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RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Here Paul sees that there are two conflicting forces in struggle. God's law in his inner man, and the law or principle, or power of sin working in his body. Sin always wins. Therefore his body is a body of "death" because his continual betrayal of God because of His sinful nature is breaking God's commandments and assuring him the penalty of death. He seems then indicates how utterly in despair someone in this condition is..but then hints that hope is available through Jesus.
Chapter 8 is a radical shift from the life controlled by the sinful nature to a life controlled by the Spirit.
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RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Ok, now in chapter 8 Paul introduces a third law to this battle. There is still the law of God in his mind which he is unable to keep. Then there is the law of sin in his body. But now through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set him free from the law of sin and death at work in his body. It is important to note that the law of sin and death is not the commandments but the law or principle of the sinful nature that he earlier referenced.
Another way of saying it is that God through His Spirit has overcome the problem of our sinful nature. Verse 3 spells this out. The law was powerless to overcome the sinful nature, but Jesus' death made it possible. He freed us from the guild of sin, and its power, and CONDEMNED sin in sinful man (He doesn't intend for it to continue). He did this so that the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW might be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. It is only the Christian by faith who can keep God's law perfectly. The legalist can never hope to because his sinful nature is not capable of keeping God's law.
God has freed us to keep the law, not to get rid of it. But we keep it in a new way through His spirit. The rest of the chapter continues this theme noting that
a. The sinful mind cannot please God. So the natural life of the flesh won't cut it.
b. Those who belong to Christ have His Spirit and live in a new way.
Paul affirms the same thing to the Ephesians, who were sealed with the Spirit:
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EPH 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
We see this throughout the Scriptures in different descriptions...new self, new attitude in our minds, Transformed in your minds, setting thoughts on things above, and walking by the Spirit, etc. All of these are descriptions of the new life in Christ that keeps His law but in a radical new way.
This was part of the new covenant God made:
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"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
HEB 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
God clearly states that he found fault with the people who in Exodus 19 said they would do all the Lord commanded, and he promised to bless them. He says they did not keep His commandment, and therefore broke His covenant. He makes a new covenant that does not depend on their promise to keep the law at all. Instead he says he will
a. forgive sins
b. Be their God
c. put the law in their minds and in their hearts
Part of the new covenant is that God helps us to WANT to keep His law.
Galatians too affirms this. The whole book is a condemnation of legalism, but it does not say that we should be lawless at all. The Galatians were depending on heredity, circumcision, etc. as a basis for standing with God. This was not acceptable. So Paul says if you started with the Spirit, why now depend on human effort. But he still affirms that the Spirit will in fact make them obey, and in a better way than the judaizing legalists.
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GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
GAL 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Those who are in Christ have gone BEYOND the law. Now this sounds terrible to some of you Adventists I am sure, but it is time we admit that this is precisely what Paul is saying. The point is not that we don't keep the law. The point is that the Spirit will keep the law far more than the flesh ever could. The flesh results in all things sinful ,and it is futile for the fleshly legalist to think to keep God's law. But the one walking in the Spirit goes beyond the prohibitions of the law to do what is GOOD. And he does it naturally.
Now, it should be noted that if someone is in the Spirit, going beyond the law, if as it says in Romans, the "righteous requirements of the law are fully met in them", then will they disobey the letter of the law? Of course not. The spirit of the law is always MORE stringent than the letter. Jesus' redefinition of adultery was more stringent than the letter of the command. He said that anyone who LUSTS after a woman has committed adultery.
In conclusion I want to note that those who have the seal of God will in fact keep the commandments, and more than that will do all that pleases God and will be GRIEVED over those who do not.
Adventists would do well to remember that those who keep the Sabbath but break all the other commands are no better off. Neither are those who keep the commands legalistically through the flesh. Adventists need more of the Spirit of God.
Others might also do well to note that the spirit which leads one to disregard God's will or His commandments is not the Spirit of God but a spirit of the evil one. The one who walks in the Spirit does not gratify the cravings of the sinful nature.
As to which law, the moral law is cited by Paul and Jesus as binding. But Paul references the shadows of the things to come as being obsolete..those dealiing with the sacrificial system which pointed to Jesus' death and atonement. Even in the text itself the 10 commandments were spoken by God and were seen as far different from the regulations that expanded upon them , and that outlined the sacrificial system later in the book.
Therefore we believe it is the moral law, specifically the 10 commandments, being referenced. Even in their compromise decision in Acts 15 the church did not require the whole mosaic law to be kept, but Paul certainly, as can be seen in the texts above did not believe the moral law of the 10 commandments was done away with. There is little doubt that Romans was written after the indicent in Acts 15 ( though galatians well could have been).
The Sabbath is contained within the 10 commandment law, but in fact predates it. It was instituted at Creation, and the command itself states this as the basis for the commandment. Therefore it also predates the sacrificial system and the Israelite nation. It is part of God's enduring law for humanity.
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