Tongues

wise seeker · Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:17 pm Post subject: Tongues

When you go to the store and buy a pair of shoes they come with tongues. As a matter of fact all shoes come with tongues. So when you are born again and accept Jesus Christ as Savior you get tongues, the ability to pray in another language by the Spirit to intercede on your behalf. The fact that most people aren't aware they have tongues or how to use them doesn't invalidate tongues.

Tongues is not the end of something but the beginning of something. Nobody operates in the nine gifts of the Spirit outlined in 1 Corinthians 12 if he or she doesn't pray in tongues. The gifts are given to God's people to help heal and deliver people and not to profit from them or put others down because you have received a gift.

3AngelsMom · Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:28 pm Post subject: Good Analogy

Yes, your shoes come with tongues, but they also come with a little packet of poison that says 'do not open, do not eat' -

Your insight into the Salvation experience is interesting and I would like to know where in Scripture this information is found. Considering that my mother and father both and ALL of my siblings and ALL of my extended family have NEVER spoken in tongues and do not believe that they are of God, please explain from SCRIPTURE, (please) how your view invalidates their Salvation.

Thank You
_________________
Why do we always laugh at things that aren't funny?

wise seeker · Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:40 pm Post subject:

Who says the salvation of your parents is invalidated? You can go through life poor or rich and still be saved. The problem is that many of God's people are missing out on all the God has for them including wholeness and total healing for body, soul and spirit as well as divine health and divine prosperity. God's word is unchanging even though people don't appropriate it:

103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless His holy name!103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits:
103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, 103:4 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies, 103:5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.

As for the Spirit, prophecy and tongues it's always been in the bible but God's people have not accepted it even though the bible records:

Numbers 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again. 11:26 But two men had remained in the camp: the name of one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad. And the Spirit rested upon them. Now they were among those listed, but who had not gone out to the tabernacle; yet they prophesied in the camp. 11:27 And a young man ran and told Moses, and said, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp." 11:28 So Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' assistant, one of his choice men, answered and said, "Moses my lord, forbid them!" 11:29 Then Moses said to him, "Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the LORD'S people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!"11:30 And Moses returned to the camp, both he and the elders of Israel.

Isaiah 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.11:2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. 11:3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."19:3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.19:7 Now the men were about twelve in all.

Yes they spoke in tongues and prophesied when Paul laid his hands upon them.

1COR 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

1COR 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 14:38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:52 pm Post subject:

wise seeker,

Do totally degenerate professing Christians without the Spirit of God have any of the gifts of the Spirit, like tongues?

How does the gift of tongues that evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne has differ from your gift of tongues?

wise seeker · Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:24 pm Post subject:

Do totally degenerate professing Christians without the Spirit of God have any of the gifts of the Spirit, like tongues?

The answer is no because the bible says about tongues
8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
1COR 14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Pagans or nonchristian do not have the Spirit helping them to pray in their weakness. So they don't pray with the spirit and pray with understanding. They don't sing with the spirit and sing with understanding.

As for Rodney Howard Browne who I think is off the deep end why don't you ask him about his tongues?

But if we are going to tear apart Rodney lets talk about promient Evangeliclas like Dr. Henry J. Lyons and Ned Graham, the son of Billy Graham to see if they are once saved always saved?

At the annual meeting of the National Baptist Convention in 1998, the Rev. Henry Lyons of St. Petersburg, former President of the National Baptist Convention and personal friend of President Bill Clinton, admitted to an ``inappropriate relationship'' - an increasingly popular euphemism for adultery - with a woman employed by the nation's largest black church group. He said he was sorry and asked for forgiveness and they forgave him.

Rev. Henry Lyons saw his troubles begin in July 1997 with arson at a home he is alleged to have owned with a woman other than his wife. After a series of reports by the St. Petersburg Times and an investigation by state prosecutors, Lyons was charged with racketeering and grand theft. He had pleaded innocent but was found guilty on all charges by the jury of his peers. Even though the National Baptist leaders, such as "Born Again" Senior Pastor E. V. Hill did not accept Lyons guilty verdict charging that jury was racist.

Lyons was convicted in February 1999 of swindling more than $4 million from companies that wanted to market life insurance, credit cards and cemetery plots to his convention members. Prosecutors said Lyons padded the convention's mailing list with names randomly selected from phone books across the country. Even a grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan was on the list.

Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge Susan Schaeffer ordered Lyons to pay $2.5 million in restitution to the companies who bought his phony mailing lists and to pay $97,000 for the cost of the state probe into his dealings.
Lyons and his alleged mistress, convention publicist Bernice Edwards, were accused of spending much of the ill-gotten money on a lavish lifestyle, including fancy cars, jewelry and a pricey waterfront home.
Edwards was acquitted on state charges, but she pleaded guilty in federal court to tax evasion. A few weeks after Lyons was convicted in state court, he resigned as head of the National Baptist Convention. He pleaded guilty to federal charges of tax evasion, fraudulent activities and lying to officials

Now Lying Lyons was not a novice although he definitely broke most of the rules concerning the position of a bishop outlined in the word of God. Dr. Henry J. Lyons was also President Emeritus of the Florida General Baptist Convention, Inc., and President of Ecumenical Counselor Community Concern, Inc. He also lectured at Colleges & Universities and was involved in National Prominence in Civic & Community Affairs Black History & Human Relations.

Dr. Lyons was born January 17, 1942. He accepted Christ in 1950 and was called to the Ministry in 1961. He and his wife, Deborah, reside in St. Petersburg. Earlier, Dr. Lyons served as an academic dean at Cincinnati Baptist College and in two pastorates at Baptist churches in Georgia.
Dr. Lyons resume was that of a very prominent educated Evangelical with extensive ministry and educational background and many doctorate degrees. For Dr. Lyons has traveled and preached extensively abroad (17 Nations) under the auspices of the Foreign Mission Board of the National Baptist Convention, USA. In addition, his travels have included Bible study in Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and theology study at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland. He has conducted Evangelistic Crusades in the Bahamas and Taiwan. He has traveled and preached in Brazil, Rome, Italy, London, England, Paris, France and Spain.

Dr. Lyons Educational Background Includes The Following Degrees:
Associate Of Arts, Gibbs Junior College, St. Petersburg, Florida
Bachelor Of Science, Bethune Cookman College, Daytona Beach, Florida
Bachelor Of Divinity, Morehouse School Of Religion, Atlanta, Georgia
Doctor Of Divinity, Cincinnati Baptist College, Cincinnati, Ohio
Doctor Of Sacred Theology, Hebrew Union University, Jerusalem, Israel
Doctor Of Divinity, Bethune Cookman College, Daytona Beach, Florida
Rev. Henry Lyons was a man called by others as Rev. Hanky-Panky who was a personal friend of Bill Clinton. A man who sought spiritual solace in the bathtub smoking marijuana after a hard day of playing patty-cake with Nigerian dictators and the financial stewardship of the NBC including secret bank accounts, forged signatures, missing files and hushed-up lobbying work on behalf of those wacky, zany Nigerian scamps.

A man who made a $200,000 rip-off of an Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith donation, which found its way into his pockets instead of burned out Baptist churches where it was originally intended. A man whose whole hand picked board of the National Baptist Convention refused to see the facts about Lyons and forgave him unanimously and unilaterally. So that they could also be forgiven if caught doing the same thing in the pattern of President Oral Roberts who forgave Jim Bakker for what was not forgivable. Robbing and raping the sheep is not forgivable.

Lyons had been the focus of state and federal criminal investigations since the summer of 1997 when his wife set fire to a $700,000 waterfront house he owned on Tierra Verde with a former convention employee, a convicted embezzler and his alleged lover. The fire triggered revelations about secret bank accounts and large commissions on convention business deals and deductions concerning his total gross salary.

Billy Graham has raised up two sons Ned and Franklin who are as deceitful as their father. Ned Graham, the son of Billy Graham, Southern Baptist minister, president East Gates International, a group that distributes Bibles in China told Christianity Today in an interview that he had abused alcohol and spent an "inappropriate amount of time" with two women on his staff.

Grace Community Church, Southern Baptist Convention, in Auburn, Washington--which counted Ned Graham, his wife, and their two sons as members established the fact that Ned Graham was an adulterer, alcoholic, wife abuser, and drug user and revoked Graham's ministerial credentials. It directed Graham to stop using the title reverend.
Yet in a style reminiscent of Jimmy Swaggart, who refused to be defrocked by the Assembly of God denomination, Ned Graham left that congregation for another church.

Most of the staff and board members of East Gates International resigned amid controversies. East Gates, in Sumner, Wash., withdrew its membership in the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability after Ned replaced the board members with his sister Ruth Graham McIntyre, brother-in-law Stephan Tchividjian, and business leader Peter Lowe.
Graham's sister Gigi Tchividjian has joined the office staff and Ned Graham continues as East Gates president. The ECFA the self-policing organization Billy Graham helped start requires that a majority of board members not be related by blood or marriage, which is no longer the case for East Gates.

A December East Gates fund-raising letter included a note from his father saying that "Ruth and I are proud of and grateful to God for our son Ned." East Gates has distributed 2 million Bibles to Christians in China, Billy Graham said, encouraging Christians to "back this unique and effective ministry."

It is interesting to see the most famous "evangelist" (some say) not being able to educate his children, especially Ned. At the same time, having a bunch of so-called Christians following the leadership of such wreckless person.

Franklin Graham wears jeans, boots, denim shirt, and leather jacket. He was a teen rebel who drank, smoked, fought, and led police on high-speed chases. He was kicked out of LeTourneau College. He used to be a rebel and a 'bum' got religion and become more sophisticated and formed "the Samaritan's Purse' so that he can fly around the country and charge things to his non-profit corporation. As a result his ministry, Samaritan's Purse, had a run-in with the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. The ECFA suspended Samaritan's Purse while it looked into Franklin's (Graham) compensation and use of the company plane

Although Billy Graham encourages religious leaders to be open about their salaries and publish their finances none of the Grahams reveal their total compensation nor release their personal income tax as President Bush does and former President Clinton has done. It's the law of the land that all non profit chairman of corporations must reveal their total salary and that Billy, Ned and Franklin do not speak volumes of their hypocrisy.
President Bill Clinton would make a great evangelist, Billy Graham told U.S. News & World Report in a interview. Graham said he was impressed with Clinton's charisma and 'with some of the things he believes. ... From a biblical point of view, we should be headed in the direction of goodness and righteousness, away from crime and immorality,' Graham said, 'and towards one's neighbors who are in need. I'm encouraged by the emphasis President Clinton (a Southern Baptist) and Hillary are putting on that.'

It's a fact that Christianity Today founded by Billy Graham did not report immediately on one of its own pastors Ollin Collins Senior Pastor of Harvest Baptist Church in Fort Worth, and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary's board chairman. A man who resigned amid sexual misconducts allegations when he was accused of having sexual relationships with two women who sought counseling.

But it did report about the adultery of a black man and a National Baptist but not about the adultery of a white man and Southern Baptist. An adultery that was more hideous and gross because Collins raped unsuspecting trusting women, while Lyons adulterous relationships were consensual. It has been said that Lyons will go down in the history books as "Hugh Hefner of the New Testament." http://headlines.yahoo.com/Full_Coverage/US/Henry_Lyons

Now concerning the fallen hero, the church had suspended Pastor Collins with pay pending an investigation. He resigned from his board position one day after a story in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reported the women's allegations and their intent to sue. Southwestern is the world's largest evangelical seminary, with 3,000 students on eight campuses.
But of course neither the Seminary nor the Church did anything for the real female victims but they did help and console the aggressor? Just like Billy Graham stated about Bill Clinton "I forgive him . . . because I know the frailty of human nature, and especially a strong, vigorous young man like he is. "He has such a tremendous personality that I think the ladies just go wild over him." In other words it was the fault of the victims not the victimizer?

They are all hypocrites and thieves their lack of accountability by their CEO's proves it. They are nothing but crooks and con artists and their smooth words do not change this fact! Otherwise hypocritical Baptist leader who preach integrity to others would not hide their salaries but be honest and state the "total compensation" of their five top employees, including Billy and Franklin Graham!

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:32 pm Post subject:

wise seeker,

If you noticed, this thread is supposed to be about tongues. Even true Babylonians are capable of staying on topic and answering direct questions.

What discernable difference is there between Rodney Howard Browne’s “gift of tongues” and your “gift of tongues”?

wise seeker · Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:48 pm Post subject:

I don't know Rodney Howard Browne that well to talk about his tongues. Why don't you ask him about it at office@revival.com.

But does Dr. Henry J. Lyons, Ned Graham, Franklin Graham or Billy Graham speak in tongues? Maybe if they did they would not be such deceivers?

RedAngel · child of God Joined: 09 Apr 2002 Posts: 24

wiseseeker

I like to think of the "groanings in the Spirit" to be nothing more than the Lord God understanding what our heart is aching to say but cannot find the words.

Aside from this verse, there appears to be nothing else in the BIble that suggests speaking in a babbling unknown tongue is acceptable in God's eyes. In fact, 1 Corinthians says that unknown tongues should not be done at all . Makes you wonder where the influence to "babble" is coming from!!
_________________
"knit together in love"

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 12:26 am Post subject:

wise seeker,

I have no doubt that all the men you’ve listed are deceivers. The topic is tongues. Surely you’ve heard Robert Tilton speak in tongues.

What discernable difference is there between Robert Tilton’s “gift of tongues” and your “gift of tongues”?

wise seeker · Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:41 am Post subject:

Since Jesus is the giver of all good things including tongues why don't you talk to him about it instead of talking to secondary sources? He is the One about John said:

MT 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

MT 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."

ACTS 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
19:3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
19:7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
19:8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God.
19:9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
19:10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
19:11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul,
19:12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.

1COR 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 14:38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:52 am Post subject:

wise seeker,

I can’t even imagine that there’s any discernable difference in the “gift of tongues” as manifested by Rodney Howard Browne, Robert Tilton, and you. You are all part of the same WOF movement.

I asked, “Do totally degenerate professing Christians without the Spirit of God have any of the gifts of the Spirit, like tongues?” You answered “no.” It follows logically that the issue here is counterfeit gifts.

I have characterized the essence of the WOF movement as the prosperity gospel, pretending signs and wonders and an astonishing absence of ordinary discernment.

wise seeker · Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 12:52 pm Post subject:

What is your problem? Who says that I have to prove anything? All the writers of the New Testament including Apostle Paul spoke in tongues and that is good enough for me. If you don't want to speak in tongues and want to find fault with people of WOF movement that is your problem!

Just like at the foolish evangelicals who don't speak in tongues and are rapists, liars and thiefs. If you want I will be glad to supply documentation about Dr. Henry J. Lyons, Ned Graham, the Baptist Foundation of Arizona, and others who say they are evangelical and are born again and do corrupt and perverse things that would make apostle Paul roll over in his grave.

No my brother's father-in-law Ed who was also a steward in the Baptist church we attended and served together didn't believe in tongues, miracles and signs until he got cancer and had a few months to live. So he and his wife secretly went to a Benny Hinn meeting in Florida and got healed. He stayed healed for seven years and died as a result of not being treated for diabetes problems in his leg because the hospital went on strike. So don't tell me that God doesn't use even a donkey to speak to His people. His word is unchanging:

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
12:2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
12:5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
12:6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
12:14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
12:15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
12:16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
12:18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
12:19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
12:20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
12:22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
12:23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
12:24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
12:25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
12:26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

richard speed · is under review Joined: 30 Dec 2002 Posts: 4

It seems that if people have a problem with tongues and try to invalidate it, then why can we not try to invalidate any of the other gifts given by the Spirit. I see nothing wrong with tongues except for that brand of tongue somebody learned in tongue school. Tongues seem to be of value only to the individual or to the group if there is an interpretor. Ellen White ate oysters and such while proclaiming health and diet issues etc..etc...does this necessarily invalidate what she wrote because of what appears contradictive or hypocritical? Like Scripture says,"Test everything". Hey GOD BLESS YOU ALL. richard speed

garrettms1 · Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:24 pm Post subject:

not everyone receives the gift of tongues-others receive different gifts such as healing, smooth talking, music and others

and u contradicted urself once in the verses u mentioned above that i scanned

Embarassed