A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:58 pm Post subject:
At this juncture, if you don't mind, I would like to enter into this discussion I know at one time last year or two years ago, I had an enounter with some on another forum regarding this issue. I remember we did not see eye to eye and I was told by someone that he knew what he was talking about because he saw himself as "the expert" on this very subject. If you don't mind, I would like to give it another try on this forum and see if we cannot this time see eye to eye! Thanks.
Ellen White said that she "was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an IMPERSONAL God pervading all nature and similar errors." 8 T 293.
She said: "The theory that God is an ESSENCE pervading all nature is one of Satan's most subtle devices. It misrepresents God and is a dishonor to His greatness and Majesty...
"These theories followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy." Ibid, 291.
Now please read the next three statements carefully and compare them with the above three and ask yourself what the difference is. The first three is what inspiration calls "false science," or "pantheistic theories," and are not the next three what inspiration calls "the knowledge of God?" The knowledge of a personal God who, by His Spirit, God's immediate Agency, is moving in all things according to His will:
"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, p.100.
"In a KNOWLEDGE OF GOD all true knowledge and real development have their source. Wherever we turn, in the physical, in the mental, or the spiritual realm, IN WHATEVER WE BEHOLD, apart from the curse of sin, this knowledge is revealed. Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are BROUGHT IN TOUCH WITH THE UNSEEN, MIGHTY INTELLIGENCE THAT IS WORKING IN AND THROUGH ALL. THE MIND OF MAN IS BROUGHT INTO COMMUNION WITH THE MIND OF GOD, THE FINITE WITH THE INFINITE. THE EFFECT OF SUCH COMMUNION ON BODY AND MIND AND SOUL IS BEYOND ESTIMATE. IN THIS COMMUNION IS FOUND THE HIGHEST EDUCATION." Education, p.14.
"Nature in her work testifies of the INTELLIGENT PRESENCE and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.
But Satan taught the angels in the heavenly courts that the MIGHTY POWER that works through all nature is merely an ALL-PERVADING PRINCIPLE! This is "FALSE SCIENCE." Education, p.130,131; 8 T 290. This is the teaching that presents God as an impersonal essence pervading all nature. Therefore, it sweeps away the whole Christian economy!
But we are told in no uncertain terms that it is an Intelligent Presence that is moving in all created things. Therefore, those who teach that the mighty power that works through all nature and that sustains all things is merely an all-pervading principle, an impersonal essence, fail to discern His Presence in everything:
"Those who judge of God from His handiwork, and not from the suppositions of great men, see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.
"Take your children into the garden and explain to them how He causes the seed to grow... THE LORD PUTS HIS OWN SPIRIT INTO THE SEED, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit. As the children study the great lessonbook of nature, God will impress their minds. As they are told of THE WORK THAT HE DOES FOR THE SEED, they learn the SECRET OF GROWTH IN GRACE. Rightly understood, these lessons lead to the Creator, teaching those SIMPLE, HOLY TRUTHS that bring the heart into close touch with God." 8 T 326,327.
"Rightly understood, both the revelations of science and the experiences of life are in harmony with the testimony of Scripture to the CONSTANT WORKING OF GOD IN NATURE." Education, p.130.
Now this shows that "Nature is not God, nor was it ever God... Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated by the laws of matter of the operations of nature as to overlook, or refuse to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.293.
Back to you! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
"Christ declared that the divine influence of His Spirit was to be with His followers unto the end." AA 49.
"The consolation given by Christ in this promise was found in the fact that the divine influence was to be with His followers to the end....The promise of the gift of the Spirit of God is left as a matter to be little considered by the church." RH Nov. 15, 1892.
"Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendecies to evil, and to impress His own character on His church." RH, Nov. 19, 1908.
"The Holy Spirit is Christ's representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally. Therefore it was for their interest that He should go to the Father, and send the Spirit to be His successor on earth. No one could then have any advantage because of his location or his personal contact with Christ. By the Spirit the Saviour would be accessible to all. In this sense He would be nearer to them than if He had not ascended on high." DA 669.
Adventbeliever quoted from 8 T 326,327 and one sentence in particular I'd like to emphasize:
Quote:
"THE LORD PUTS HIS OWN SPIRIT INTO THE SEED, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit."
And Steve quoted DA, page 669 and one sentence in particular I'd like to emphasize:
Quote:
"The Holy Spirit is Christ's representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof."
These two quotes disclose the glorious truth of scripture. And these two quotes disclose the understanding that Ellen White had on the matter. And this is the sum:
The Holy Spirit is the personal presence and power of God and Christ, NOT a separate and distinct individual divine being or deity in unity with two other eternal deities - the trinity!
Adventbeliever, nice quote - I've seen you quote this before. And based upon what I've read of you in other posts, shall I take it then that you have been enlightened with regards to the truth about the doctrine of God? Shall I take it that you reject the false doctrine of the trinity? Shall I take it that you reject the falsehood being perpetrated by Adventism today that Ellen White led the church into trinitarianism? If I'm reading you correctly, then I say praise the Lord!!! If not, please forgive me for misreading you.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:24 pm Post subject:
And here is another one: "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28/ And "The Lord is that Spirit." 2 Cor:3:17. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:08 am Post subject:
Right on Steve! "Where shall I flee from Your Spirit? Where shall I go from Your presence?" Ps.109:7. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Well, AB, since you're in agreement that God and Christ are everywhere present by the Holy Spirit by rightly quoting Psalms 109:7, then I see a mighty conflict with the trinitarian concept of three deities composing one Godhead. If you believe in the trinity, then you believe that the Holy Spirit is a third separate, independent individual divine being living in unison with two other separate, independent individual divine beings. And if that's so, then the Holy Spirit's presence is HIS OWN presence, not the presence of the Father and the Son. This concept does great damage to Psalms 109:7. Or I rather should say that Psalms 109:7 does great damage to the trinity theory's ascribing a personal, individual, independent Godhood to the Holy Spirit when in reality Psalms 109:7 simply defines the Holy Spirit as God's personal presence throughout His vast creation. In other words, there's no such thing as "God the Spirit".
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:58 pm Post subject:
Mickey, the way you are trying to reason this issue out is by human reasoning which is foolishness before God! Please stop doing that! I beg of you to accept the simple declaration of the Scriptrues and the SOP. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Mickey, the way you are trying to reason this issue out is by human reasoning which is foolishness before God! Please stop doing that! I beg of you to accept the simple declaration of the Scriptrues and the SOP.
My brother, I do accept the simple declarations of scripture and the SOP and I've provided both proving that the trinity is not truth. But still, my brother, I have yet to see you provide any scripture proving that God is a trinity. I would plead with you, my friend, please stop doing that! Don't you see that you do not have any scripture to back up your trinity view? Else I'm sure you would have been busy providing such scriptural testimony though all of these threads in which you have been defending the trinity with pleas and human reasoning but with not one iota of scripture. Think about it.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:52 pm Post subject:
As I have said already, I have provided enough passage of Scripture showing the full deity of Christ and I have even added Christ's own commentary upon these passages of Scripture. Go and read them again. You know where to find them, in my responses to you and David in all the threads dealing with the issue of the Godhead. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
The issue is not the Deity of Jesus Christ. The fact that Jesus is the Son of God makes Him equal with God.
Quote:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18
"As I have said already, I have provided enough passage of Scripture showing the full deity of Christ..."
Please stop skirting the issue, brother. I didn't ask you to provide scripture proving the full deity of Christ. I already know and accept Christ's full deity. I asked you to provide the "many scriptures" you said you know of that proves that God is a trinity - THAT'S the issue at hand. Now, obviously, you can't biblically prove from the bible that God is a trinity, else you surely would have by now. So, with all due respect, what kind of game are you playing here?
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 10:26 pm Post subject:
And you can't provide us with anything from the Scripture that would even suggest anything against the teaching of the trinity. Now I know you have said much already but to me it was only pure speculations. I am sorry but I will never buy it! I guess I am "closed minded" after all, to human ideas and speculations! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
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