The Godhead Is Not Three Persons

vector · child of God Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

Hi willie,

sorry for the confusion. i.m suppose to qoute michael but it did'nt seem to appear that way.

anyway, i admit it is quite confusing to people like you what we believe but not because of a faulty logic on our part but rather by a mistaken view of god in your part.

do you really think god is one?

is that how you understand scriptures when the bible said God is One?

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 108

WillieH: Hi Vector...

I once swallowed the thinly evidenced doctrine of the Trinity, but studied further than my "Church" taught, and found that the scriptures bear out that the FATHER alone is GOD... The Son is God only because He proceeds from the Heart and Mouth of the FATHER... He is the WORD...

It is YOU, my friend, ...that has a mistaken view of the scriptures...

Let me give you a quick representation of how I percieve our GOD...

* The FATHER is the SOURCE of His WORD... the WORD is the audible/outward EXPRESSION of the silent Heart of the FATHER... it is the SON of the SOURCE/FATHER... (just as your words are not separate or different from you. Your words are the EXPRESSION of yourself, not a different or separate person).

* GOD is SPIRIT.. that SPIRIT is HOLY... that SPIRIT is ALMIGHTY... It is NOT a PERSON.. rather it is WHAT HE (the FATHER), ...IS... SPIRIT..

* The WORD has never been separate from its SOURCE/FATHER... It is therefore GOD in outward EXPRESSION... There is still only ONE PERSON here...

* Just as there is only ONE PERSON in EACH of GOD's Children.. beginning with JESUS CHRIST... When the WORD is manifested in the life of one of His children... then (you &I) that child is manifesting the same WILL as did JESUS CHRIST... making His children ONE with Himself...

A Father preceeds a Son... it is the natural and spiritual course of things..

One thing to keep in mind while studying and forming beliefs in a given doctrinal pursuit is this... Does this term appear in the Word? If not, the first RED FLAG of FALSEHOOD is presented... from there, there will be ample proof that it is a teaching built on Sand as opposed to the Word of God..

1st evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... It does NOT appear in the WORD neither is there INSTRUCTION IN SCRIPTURE, to teach this perception...

2nd evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... If in fact GOD were multiple PERSONS... then we being made in "their" image.. would also be multiple persons..

3rd evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... YHWH's continuous repeating of the fact that there was NO GOD beside HIM... If there were, it would be born out in the OT.. it is NOT...

4th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... The SON is stated in scripture to have a GOD... (and yes, the source of the Word/Son is the FATHER) This is stated over and over in the NT, not only by PAUL "..THE GOD and FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST" (Eph 1:2), but also by JESUS Himself... "why callest me GOOD, there is ONE GOOD, ..that is GOD" (Mt 19:17 / Mk 10:18 / Luke 18:19) In this verse He separates Himself from something that is called GOD which we know to be the FATHER for that is who JESUS prayed to... Also, where in Scripture is the FATHER said to have a GOD? ...NOT!

5th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... Where in scripture is the FATHER seen "praying" to the Son... or the Holy Spirit?

6th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... JESUS never DID HIS WILL... He did the WILL of the FATHER, for the FATHER was and is GOD and It is HIS WILL that we aspire to... "Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy NAME, thy Kingdom come, ...THY WILL be DONE in Earth as it IS in Heaven" (Mt 6:9) This verse came from the lips of the Son.. JESUS CHRIST.. stating that not His WILL (the Son's) be DONE, rather the FATHER's WILL.. JESUS stated over and over that He did NOTHING of Himself! (John 5:30 / John 5:19) Why? Because Words do only the bidding of their Source... It is the same with US! "WITHOUT me ye can do NOTHING." (John 15:5)

7th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... GOD states HIMSELF that HE ALONE is GOD... I will type one verse, but there are many that repeat the words of this one: ""..beside ME there IS NO GOD" (Is 44:6 / Is 45:21 / Is 43:11 / Is45:6 / 2 Sam 7:22 and on... and on...) (In none of these verses and others like them is plurality inferred, quite the contrary.. It is SINGULARITY that IS PRONOUNCED!)

I could go on and on with the verifications of the FATHER's ONENESS, but what would be the point? You either see spiritual things because He has unveiled them, ...or you do NOT... it is up to GOD when the vision of our hearts are opened to spiritual truths.. Its not about UNDERSTANDING what the scriptures say of GOD's singular person... it is whether you SEE with spiritual eyes of your heart, ...the SPIRITUAL MEANING...

This is why there is such division in Christianity... It preaches a predominately FALSE GOSPEL.. that contains some truth here mixed with a little falsehood there.. and voila! You have the SDA version of truth or the BAPTIST version, or the LUTHERAN version.. etc.

There is only ONE TRUTH.. and it does not have all these variations... If you wish to find the TRUTH... seek it with your WHOLE HEART.. hunger and thirst for it... Your Church will never be able to reveal it, for it does NOT KNOW IT! How do I know this? I attend an SDA congregation... Great folks... sincerely mislead...

I can sincerely wish to reach a destination NORTH, but if I am heading EAST, my sincerity in all its good intention will never bring about my arrival to this Northerly located destination! So is the way of the Church in all its varied and mislead doctrines.. which do NOT reflect the TRUTH and lead the sheep astray...

GOD is NOT ..ILLOGICAL, even though the Church teaches otherwise.. They teach He (they?) is 3 in 1... they teach He is a destroyer (Hell) as opposed to a SAVIOR... They put the ultimate decision of eternity in the unsaved persons hands, instead of relinquishing all CREDIT to GOD.. They teach He is a respecter of Persons... They teach in vain the scriptures, for they in TRUTH are the Pharisees of the present... they do NOT know of Spiritual things and so, cannot teach them...

GOD however IS IN CHARGE of EVERYTHING... He is IN CONTROL of ALL, and LOVES ALL, and WILL SAVE ALL... as is taught in the Holy Scriptures.. Exclamation

May the Lord bless you with SPIRITUAL SIGHT as you seek Him...

In JESUS, ...WillieH

vector · child of God Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 108

vector · child of God Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

hi willieH,

Let me apologize.

The difference arises on how we view God.

Non-Trinitarians view the oneness of God as a numerically value of one.
We view that God is spirit and infinite and therefore cannot be quantified.

We believed that God is one but not in a sense as if you can assign a numerical value of 1 to God and be measured or be numbered. We believe God is spirit (John 4:13) and without limit. God has no quantity and only perfect quality. That is why God is described as God is love, God is light. God is spirit.

Please let me explain…

Numbers or numerical values are natural phenomena that can be observed in the created universe. They can be conceived and perceived by the human mind. And everything in the created universe can be expressed in a mathematical equation.

Therefore before creation, numbers never really existed at all. For they existed only in time, space and matter. They were invention and creation of God. And so as God is spirit and above creation, he is infinite and unquantifiable. In the beginning, in the realms of His self-existence, numbers have no meaning. For God is above creation, above nature and definitely above numbers.

So when a Trinitarian read a passage that said God is one, they never view God to be numerically one. What they believe by the word one is that God is the only one and there is none besides him, as opposed to the many gods the pagans worshipped.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, - Isa 46:9 KJV

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. - John 17:3 KJV

So my belief is...

God is the only God there is and he revealed himself as the Father, the Son and the Spirit in the scriptures of the bible.

All fully God in every sense of the word. So we can worshipped the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom declared by the Father as fully God like unto him by virtue of his sonship. we never felt any guilt that we are practicing polytheism. Never confused why there are “three God” revealed in scriptures while God is one. For God is unfathomable and
We simply hold on to the simple utterances of what the bible said, that the Father and Jesus were both God and yet one.

Trinitarian view is never pagan. It is biblical and Christian.

If one can only remove the mindset that God is numerically one. He can easily see in the passages of the bible the concept being explained. And if still you can’t find it there, look into your heart, it is there.

For all Christians in the end whether they realized it or not are Trinitarians. We pray to the same Father, we pray in the name of his Son, Jesus and prompted and empowered by the Holy Spirit to pray. You’re salvation is Trinitarian, the Father authored it, the Son executed it and provided a way to bring you back to God and the Holy Spirit works in your life to make your salvation a reality.

And so I also suspect that maybe, most of the differences between that two are nothing more than semantics.

That is why when somebody said that Trinitarians are polytheists, it really hurts. Please don’t say that.

Peace.
_________________
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:3

WillieH · Universalist Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 108

WillieH: Hi again Vector...

It is you that misunderstands within his view of God.. I once believed as do you, in the "Trinity", ...but so many texts and proofs lie in God's word along with logic, along with Man, that point to ONENESS, not Threeness...

God would have been decieving to say "I" and "Me" when in truth it was "Us"... YHWH is the only God... Jesus Christ is His Son (which means YHWH saves) and He is SPIRIT... Not 3 persons.. but 3 offices He occupies... Just as I am a Father, Son, Grandfather, friend, etc etc.. Yet still ONE PERSON...

No matter how you observe and describe.. your version contains 3 persons which by individuality compose 3 Gods.. Its okay... one day you will see this, for The Almighty will reveal Himself to ALL...

Blessings to you..

In JESUS, ....WillieH

vector · child of God Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

lt2nick · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:00 am Post subject:

Jesus is also God: John 1:1-3; Phil. 2:6-8; Heb. 1:7-9; Micah 5:2
Jesus is either fully God and the Saviour of man, or He is not God at all: Isaiah 43:10-11

Isaiah 9:6
Matt. 1:21
John 20:26-28
Heb. 1:7-9
John 5:21
John 10:33

errorblaster · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 16

Isaiah 44:6 matches Juan 1:1

6] Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
"I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.

1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

According to Sister White the Holy Spirit is Jesus himself devoid of human personality and independent. When we read Revelation 4, we see the throne room and the 7 spirits of God. This reveals the preincarnate logos. In chapter 5 we see the Lamb with marks of slaughter after the Encarnation and he has the 7 horns which are the 7 spirits of God. Why is it that we don't see the lamb in chapter 4? The question that needs to be addressed is "did the incarnation affect the nature of Deity"? Was there a division which caused the formation of a Trio rather than the duality which is revealed in the Old Testament?

Jesus humbled himself and took the form of a servant. If he did divide his nature it was for the following reason. 1) To defeat sin in the flesh and die on the cross, 2) send the presence of his very being, the Holy Spirit his alter ego into all believers that are baptized and accept him as their Lord and Saviour.

The word Allos another comforter implies another Jesus. This word means that the comforter is of the same category as Jesus but distinct. In John 14 the word Heteros is not used which means another totally distinct individual. Jesus did tell his disciples that he would not leave them as orphans , he would come to them.

There is theological support for the dualism of the God, in Revelation 22 we find the throne of God and the Lamb. The Holy Spirit and the bride say come. What this is simply saying is that Jesus is becoming one spirit with his people. We don't see a throne of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a force or an energy it is Jesus divided nature after the incarnation. Before the incarnation we don't see a heavenly Trio scenario en Revelation 4 we see the Throne of the Father and the 7 Spirits. Then in chapter 5 we see the Lamb who has the 7 spirits of God, in other words 2 in one.

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: questioning error

errorblaster · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 16

Ellen White and the Holy Spirit

This same concept is revealed in Ellen White’s writings: “Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 14, p. 23.) No wonder Sister White wrote that the Holy Spirit was “the soul of his [Christ’s] life.” (R&H, May 19, 1904)

Isaiah 48:

16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Eugene Shubert

Your question was, What verse in the Bible identifies the Holy Spirit with the preincarnate logos?

Errorblaster

Isaiah 48:16 from the King James matches the panoramic view of the preincarnate logos in Revelation 4:

5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Isaiah 48:

16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Answer

In Isaiah 44:6 there are only two revealed, we also see the same situation in Psalm 2: Isaiah 44:6 states that there is no other God besides these two, to say that there are three would go contrary to the revelation of this verse. This verse matches exactly with what is stated in John 1:1. AFter the plan of salvation we see the restored duality in the form of the throne of God and the Lamb. Also I think that Zacharia mentions the counsel of peace between the two of them.

We do not see a throne of the Holy Spirit. A theological case can be made for the duality of God which is revealed in Revelation 22

The Lamb with marks of slaughter is not seen in chapter 4 because it is a panoramic view of heaven before the incarnation. You will notice that in chapter 5 the Lamb with marks of slaughter has the 7 horns which are the seven eyes which are the 7 spirits of God sent out to all the earth . This is simbolic language depicting the preincarnate logos who acording to sister White is the Holy Spirit himself.

It was the incarnation that impacted the nature of the Godhead and caused this division in the pre-incarnate logos in order to spread his presence among his disciples. As a human Jesus could not be everywhere at the same time.

Your other statement regarding SDAs teaching that the Holy Spirit was present in Creation long before the incarnation but present in Genesis 1:2 has to take into account the declaration of Isaiah 44:6 which is also before the incarnation as well as John 1:1. Neither of these verses presents 3. Why is it that the lamb is not seen in chapter 4 of Revelation? The person which we know as Jesus Christ was the 7 Spirits of God. Keep in mind that the Father is Spirit and the Logos is Spirit,the incarnation brought limitation as stated in Philippians 2: He took the form of Servant

another case in point

In each of the letters to the 7 churches this is what is stated

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: `The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.

7] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

question: Who is speaking Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: `The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

[11] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.'

And to the angel of the church in Per'gamum write: `The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

[17] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

And to the angel of the church in Thyati'ra write: `The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

29] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: `The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

6] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.

[13] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

"And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: `The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

[22] He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

conclusion

There is no doubt that we see 3 persons in the Godhead in the New Testament. A progressive understanding would reveal that the original duality was impacted by the incarnation. In chapter 22 of Revelation we see a restored duality of the throne of the God and the Lamb.

For Eugene Shubert

I have noticed that I have been labeled a pseudo 7th Day Adventist.

Correct me if I am wrong did I see on one of your posts that you believe the millennium to be on the earth? This is not historic 7th Day Adventism.

Also are you a part of the faith and order commission of the World Council of Churches? Because in order to be a member you must confess the Trinity doctrine. Have you recently noticed the SDA logo? There are no longer 3 angels. They are now part of the BEM Baptism, Ministry and Eucharist of the Faith and Order Commission of the WCC. All SDAs who confess the Trinity qualify for membership which brings Trinitarians under the banner of Rome.