Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Backacha Vec...
Hi willie,
sorry for the confusion. i.m suppose to qoute michael but it did'nt seem to appear that way.
anyway, i admit it is quite confusing to people like you what we believe but not because of a faulty logic on our part but rather by a mistaken view of god in your part.
do you really think god is one?
is that how you understand scriptures when the bible said God is One?
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: Mistaken....
WillieH: Hi Vector...
I once swallowed the thinly evidenced doctrine of the Trinity, but studied further than my "Church" taught, and found that the scriptures bear out that the FATHER alone is GOD... The Son is God only because He proceeds from the Heart and Mouth of the FATHER... He is the WORD...
It is YOU, my friend, ...that has a mistaken view of the scriptures...
Let me give you a quick representation of how I percieve our GOD...
* The FATHER is the SOURCE of His WORD... the WORD is the audible/outward EXPRESSION of the silent Heart of the FATHER... it is the SON of the SOURCE/FATHER... (just as your words are not separate or different from you. Your words are the EXPRESSION of yourself, not a different or separate person).
* GOD is SPIRIT.. that SPIRIT is HOLY... that SPIRIT is ALMIGHTY... It is NOT a PERSON.. rather it is WHAT HE (the FATHER), ...IS... SPIRIT..
* The WORD has never been separate from its SOURCE/FATHER... It is therefore GOD in outward EXPRESSION... There is still only ONE PERSON here...
* Just as there is only ONE PERSON in EACH of GOD's Children.. beginning with JESUS CHRIST... When the WORD is manifested in the life of one of His children... then (you &I) that child is manifesting the same WILL as did JESUS CHRIST... making His children ONE with Himself...
A Father preceeds a Son... it is the natural and spiritual course of things..
One thing to keep in mind while studying and forming beliefs in a given doctrinal pursuit is this... Does this term appear in the Word? If not, the first RED FLAG of FALSEHOOD is presented... from there, there will be ample proof that it is a teaching built on Sand as opposed to the Word of God..
1st evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... It does NOT appear in the WORD neither is there INSTRUCTION IN SCRIPTURE, to teach this perception...
2nd evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... If in fact GOD were multiple PERSONS... then we being made in "their" image.. would also be multiple persons..
3rd evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... YHWH's continuous repeating of the fact that there was NO GOD beside HIM... If there were, it would be born out in the OT.. it is NOT...
4th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... The SON is stated in scripture to have a GOD... (and yes, the source of the Word/Son is the FATHER) This is stated over and over in the NT, not only by PAUL "..THE GODandFATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST" (Eph 1:2), but also by JESUS Himself... "why callest me GOOD, there is ONE GOOD, ..that is GOD" (Mt 19:17 / Mk 10:18 / Luke 18:19) In this verse He separates Himself from something that is called GOD which we know to be the FATHER for that is who JESUS prayed to... Also, where in Scripture is the FATHER said to have a GOD? ...NOT!
5th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... Where in scripture is the FATHER seen "praying" to the Son... or the Holy Spirit?
6th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... JESUS never DID HIS WILL... He did the WILL of the FATHER, for the FATHER was and is GOD and It is HIS WILL that we aspire to... "Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy NAME, thy Kingdom come, ...THY WILL be DONE in Earth as it IS in Heaven" (Mt 6:9) This verse came from the lips of the Son.. JESUS CHRIST.. stating that not His WILL (the Son's) be DONE, rather the FATHER's WILL.. JESUS stated over and over that He did NOTHING of Himself! (John 5:30 / John 5:19) Why? Because Words do only the bidding of their Source... It is the same with US! "WITHOUT me ye can do NOTHING." (John 15:5)
7th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... GOD states HIMSELF that HE ALONE is GOD... I will type one verse, but there are many that repeat the words of this one: ""..beside ME there IS NO GOD" (Is 44:6 / Is 45:21 / Is 43:11 / Is45:6 / 2 Sam 7:22 and on... and on...) (In none of these verses and others like them is plurality inferred, quite the contrary.. It is SINGULARITY that IS PRONOUNCED!)
I could go on and on with the verifications of the FATHER's ONENESS, but what would be the point? You either see spiritual things because He has unveiled them, ...or you do NOT... it is up to GOD when the vision of our hearts are opened to spiritual truths.. Its not about UNDERSTANDING what the scriptures say of GOD's singular person... it is whether you SEE with spiritual eyes of your heart, ...the SPIRITUAL MEANING...
This is why there is such division in Christianity... It preaches a predominately FALSE GOSPEL.. that contains some truth here mixed with a little falsehood there.. and voila! You have the SDA version of truth or the BAPTIST version, or the LUTHERAN version.. etc.
There is only ONE TRUTH.. and it does not have all these variations... If you wish to find the TRUTH... seek it with your WHOLE HEART.. hunger and thirst for it... Your Church will never be able to reveal it, for it does NOT KNOW IT! How do I know this? I attend an SDA congregation... Great folks... sincerely mislead...
I can sincerely wish to reach a destination NORTH, but if I am heading EAST, my sincerity in all its good intention will never bring about my arrival to this Northerly located destination! So is the way of the Church in all its varied and mislead doctrines.. which do NOT reflect the TRUTH and lead the sheep astray...
GOD is NOT ..ILLOGICAL, even though the Church teaches otherwise.. They teach He (they?) is 3 in 1... they teach He is a destroyer (Hell) as opposed to a SAVIOR... They put the ultimate decision of eternity in the unsaved persons hands, instead of relinquishing all CREDIT to GOD.. They teach He is a respecter of Persons... They teach in vain the scriptures, for they in TRUTH are the Pharisees of the present... they do NOT know of Spiritual things and so, cannot teach them...
GOD however IS IN CHARGE of EVERYTHING... He is IN CONTROL of ALL, and LOVES ALL, and WILL SAVE ALL... as is taught in the Holy Scriptures..
May the Lord bless you with SPIRITUAL SIGHT as you seek Him...
In JESUS, ...WillieH
vector wrote:
Hi willie,
sorry for the confusion. i.m suppose to qoute michael but it did'nt seem to appear that way.
anyway, i admit it is quite confusing to people like you what we believe but not because of a faulty logic on our part but rather by a mistaken view of god in your part.
do you really think god is one?
is that how you understand scriptures when the bible said God is One?
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Mistaken....
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hi Vector...
I once swallowed the thinly evidenced doctrine of the Trinity, but studied further than my "Church" taught, and found that the scriptures bear out that the FATHER alone is GOD... The Son is God only because He proceeds from the Heart and Mouth of the FATHER... He is the WORD...
It is YOU, my friend, ...that has a mistaken view of the scriptures...
Let me give you a quick representation of how I percieve our GOD...
* The FATHER is the SOURCE of His WORD... the WORD is the audible/outward EXPRESSION of the silent Heart of the FATHER... it is the SON of the SOURCE/FATHER... (just as your words are not separate or different from you. Your words are the EXPRESSION of yourself, not a different or separate person).
* GOD is SPIRIT.. that SPIRIT is HOLY... that SPIRIT is ALMIGHTY... It is NOT a PERSON.. rather it is WHAT HE (the FATHER), ...IS... SPIRIT..
* The WORD has never been separate from its SOURCE/FATHER... It is therefore GOD in outward EXPRESSION... There is still only ONE PERSON here...
* Just as there is only ONE PERSON in EACH of GOD's Children.. beginning with JESUS CHRIST... When the WORD is manifested in the life of one of His children... then (you &I) that child is manifesting the same WILL as did JESUS CHRIST... making His children ONE with Himself...
A Father preceeds a Son... it is the natural and spiritual course of things..
One thing to keep in mind while studying and forming beliefs in a given doctrinal pursuit is this... Does this term appear in the Word? If not, the first RED FLAG of FALSEHOOD is presented... from there, there will be ample proof that it is a teaching built on Sand as opposed to the Word of God..
1st evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... It does NOT appear in the WORD neither is there INSTRUCTION IN SCRIPTURE, to teach this perception...
2nd evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... If in fact GOD were multiple PERSONS... then we being made in "their" image.. would also be multiple persons..
3rd evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... YHWH's continuous repeating of the fact that there was NO GOD beside HIM... If there were, it would be born out in the OT.. it is NOT...
4th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... The SON is stated in scripture to have a GOD... (and yes, the source of the Word/Son is the FATHER) This is stated over and over in the NT, not only by PAUL "..THE GODandFATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST" (Eph 1:2), but also by JESUS Himself... "why callest me GOOD, there is ONE GOOD, ..that is GOD" (Mt 19:17 / Mk 10:18 / Luke 18:19) In this verse He separates Himself from something that is called GOD which we know to be the FATHER for that is who JESUS prayed to... Also, where in Scripture is the FATHER said to have a GOD? ...NOT!
5th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... Where in scripture is the FATHER seen "praying" to the Son... or the Holy Spirit?
6th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... JESUS never DID HIS WILL... He did the WILL of the FATHER, for the FATHER was and is GOD and It is HIS WILL that we aspire to... "Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy NAME, thy Kingdom come, ...THY WILL be DONE in Earth as it IS in Heaven" (Mt 6:9) This verse came from the lips of the Son.. JESUS CHRIST.. stating that not His WILL (the Son's) be DONE, rather the FATHER's WILL.. JESUS stated over and over that He did NOTHING of Himself! (John 5:30 / John 5:19) Why? Because Words do only the bidding of their Source... It is the same with US! "WITHOUT me ye can do NOTHING." (John 15:5)
7th evidence of TRINITY's FALSEHOOD... GOD states HIMSELF that HE ALONE is GOD... I will type one verse, but there are many that repeat the words of this one: ""..beside ME there IS NO GOD" (Is 44:6 / Is 45:21 / Is 43:11 / Is45:6 / 2 Sam 7:22 and on... and on...) (In none of these verses and others like them is plurality inferred, quite the contrary.. It is SINGULARITY that IS PRONOUNCED!)
I could go on and on with the verifications of the FATHER's ONENESS, but what would be the point? You either see spiritual things because He has unveiled them, ...or you do NOT... it is up to GOD when the vision of our hearts are opened to spiritual truths.. Its not about UNDERSTANDING what the scriptures say of GOD's singular person... it is whether you SEE with spiritual eyes of your heart, ...the SPIRITUAL MEANING...
This is why there is such division in Christianity... It preaches a predominately FALSE GOSPEL.. that contains some truth here mixed with a little falsehood there.. and voila! You have the SDA version of truth or the BAPTIST version, or the LUTHERAN version.. etc.
There is only ONE TRUTH.. and it does not have all these variations... If you wish to find the TRUTH... seek it with your WHOLE HEART.. hunger and thirst for it... Your Church will never be able to reveal it, for it does NOT KNOW IT! How do I know this? I attend an SDA congregation... Great folks... sincerely mislead...
I can sincerely wish to reach a destination NORTH, but if I am heading EAST, my sincerity in all its good intention will never bring about my arrival to this Northerly located destination! So is the way of the Church in all its varied and mislead doctrines.. which do NOT reflect the TRUTH and lead the sheep astray...
GOD is NOT ..ILLOGICAL, even though the Church teaches otherwise.. They teach He (they?) is 3 in 1... they teach He is a destroyer (Hell) as opposed to a SAVIOR... They put the ultimate decision of eternity in the unsaved persons hands, instead of relinquishing all CREDIT to GOD.. They teach He is a respecter of Persons... They teach in vain the scriptures, for they in TRUTH are the Pharisees of the present... they do NOT know of Spiritual things and so, cannot teach them...
GOD however IS IN CHARGE of EVERYTHING... He is IN CONTROL of ALL, and LOVES ALL, and WILL SAVE ALL... as is taught in the Holy Scriptures..
May the Lord bless you with SPIRITUAL SIGHT as you seek Him...
In JESUS, ...WillieH
vector wrote:
Hi willie,
sorry for the confusion. i.m suppose to qoute michael but it did'nt seem to appear that way.
anyway, i admit it is quite confusing to people like you what we believe but not because of a faulty logic on our part but rather by a mistaken view of god in your part.
do you really think god is one?
is that how you understand scriptures when the bible said God is One?
hi willieH,
thanks for the benidection.
i agree with you 100% GOD is SPIRIT.
almost the same belief with you but just one thing when you said the word was never separated with the father.
for that is exactly what happened willieh. the word was separated with the father and became flesh and took the distinct personality of his own.
your statement of belief whether you notice it or not is like mine. you are right the word trinity is not word for word in the bible. so i will try to make you understand my belief without using that word or any word related to it. (like the 3 in 1 word)
here you mentioned that the father is god alone. but you also metioned that the son is also GOD because he proceeds from God the FAther.
i believe that also.
and thas is exactly how it is revealed in the New testament scriptures.
and that is exactly what was taught by jesus and the apostles...that...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: Not so Mistaken....
Quote:
hi willieH,
thanks for the benidection.
i agree with you 100% GOD is SPIRIT.
almost the same belief with you but just one thing when you said the word was never separated with the father.
WillieH: "No one hath ASCENDED up to Heaven, but He that CAME DOWN from HEAVEN, even the Son of Man WHICH IS in Heaven..." (John 3:13)
GOD's Word is capable of being in more than one place at a time Vector.. as displayed in John 3:13.. If not...
How did GOD SAY.. "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased?" WORDS are an integral part of the process of "saying"..
What you do not see is, that the WORD was made flesh... Christ was obedient in every way, in every instance.. thereby making the FLESH subject to the WORD... and in turn, ...making the WORD flesh...
I believe we have a similar view, just use different words to convey it.. In any case.. our Salvation is not based on what we do, say, or know.. it is based on CHRIST alone, His GRACE, and His GIFT of eternal life to us...
You are a student Vector... may God bless you as you seek Him...
You have humility, and are inoffensive, unlike many that post here..
Stick with JESUS, and you cant miss...
In JESUS... WillieH
Quote:
for that is exactly what happened willieh. the word was separated with the father and became flesh and took the distinct personality of his own.
your statement of belief whether you notice it or not is like mine. you are right the word trinity is not word for word in the bible. so i will try to make you understand my belief without using that word or any word related to it. (like the 3 in 1 word)
here you mentioned that the father is god alone. but you also metioned that the son is also GOD because he proceeds from God the FAther.
i believe that also.
and thas is exactly how it is revealed in the New testament scriptures.
and that is exactly what was taught by jesus and the apostles...that...
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Not so Mistaken....
hi willieH,
Let me apologize.
The difference arises on how we view God.
Non-Trinitarians view the oneness of God as a numerically value of one.
We view that God is spirit and infinite and therefore cannot be quantified.
We believed that God is one but not in a sense as if you can assign a numerical value of 1 to God and be measured or be numbered. We believe God is spirit (John 4:13) and without limit. God has no quantity and only perfect quality. That is why God is described as God is love, God is light. God is spirit.
Please let me explain…
Numbers or numerical values are natural phenomena that can be observed in the created universe. They can be conceived and perceived by the human mind. And everything in the created universe can be expressed in a mathematical equation.
Therefore before creation, numbers never really existed at all. For they existed only in time, space and matter. They were invention and creation of God. And so as God is spirit and above creation, he is infinite and unquantifiable. In the beginning, in the realms of His self-existence, numbers have no meaning. For God is above creation, above nature and definitely above numbers.
So when a Trinitarian read a passage that said God is one, they never view God to be numerically one. What they believe by the word one is that God is the only one and there is none besides him, as opposed to the many gods the pagans worshipped.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, - Isa 46:9 KJV
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. - John 17:3 KJV
So my belief is...
God is the only God there is and he revealed himself as the Father, the Son and the Spirit in the scriptures of the bible.
All fully God in every sense of the word. So we can worshipped the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom declared by the Father as fully God like unto him by virtue of his sonship. we never felt any guilt that we are practicing polytheism. Never confused why there are “three God” revealed in scriptures while God is one. For God is unfathomable and
We simply hold on to the simple utterances of what the bible said, that the Father and Jesus were both God and yet one.
Trinitarian view is never pagan. It is biblical and Christian.
If one can only remove the mindset that God is numerically one. He can easily see in the passages of the bible the concept being explained. And if still you can’t find it there, look into your heart, it is there.
For all Christians in the end whether they realized it or not are Trinitarians. We pray to the same Father, we pray in the name of his Son, Jesus and prompted and empowered by the Holy Spirit to pray. You’re salvation is Trinitarian, the Father authored it, the Son executed it and provided a way to bring you back to God and the Holy Spirit works in your life to make your salvation a reality.
And so I also suspect that maybe, most of the differences between that two are nothing more than semantics.
That is why when somebody said that Trinitarians are polytheists, it really hurts. Please don’t say that.
Peace. _________________ Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:3
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Not so Mistaken....
WillieH: Hi again Vector...
It is you that misunderstands within his view of God.. I once believed as do you, in the "Trinity", ...but so many texts and proofs lie in God's word along with logic, along with Man, that point to ONENESS, not Threeness...
God would have been decieving to say "I" and "Me" when in truth it was "Us"... YHWH is the only God... Jesus Christ is His Son (which means YHWH saves) and He is SPIRIT... Not 3 persons.. but 3 offices He occupies... Just as I am a Father, Son, Grandfather, friend, etc etc.. Yet still ONE PERSON...
No matter how you observe and describe.. your version contains 3 persons which by individuality compose 3 Gods.. Its okay... one day you will see this, for The Almighty will reveal Himself to ALL...
Blessings to you..
In JESUS, ....WillieH
vector wrote:
hi willieH,
Let me apologize.
The difference arises on how we view God.
Non-Trinitarians view the oneness of God as a numerically value of one.
We view that God is spirit and infinite and therefore cannot be quantified.
We believed that God is one but not in a sense as if you can assign a numerical value of 1 to God and be measured or be numbered. We believe God is spirit (John 4:13) and without limit. God has no quantity and only perfect quality. That is why God is described as God is love, God is light. God is spirit.
Please let me explain…
Numbers or numerical values are natural phenomena that can be observed in the created universe. They can be conceived and perceived by the human mind. And everything in the created universe can be expressed in a mathematical equation.
Therefore before creation, numbers never really existed at all. For they existed only in time, space and matter. They were invention and creation of God. And so as God is spirit and above creation, he is infinite and unquantifiable. In the beginning, in the realms of His self-existence, numbers have no meaning. For God is above creation, above nature and definitely above numbers.
So when a Trinitarian read a passage that said God is one, they never view God to be numerically one. What they believe by the word one is that God is the only one and there is none besides him, as opposed to the many gods the pagans worshipped.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, - Isa 46:9 KJV
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. - John 17:3 KJV
So my belief is...
God is the only God there is and he revealed himself as the Father, the Son and the Spirit in the scriptures of the bible.
All fully God in every sense of the word. So we can worshipped the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom declared by the Father as fully God like unto him by virtue of his sonship. we never felt any guilt that we are practicing polytheism. Never confused why there are “three God” revealed in scriptures while God is one. For God is unfathomable and
We simply hold on to the simple utterances of what the bible said, that the Father and Jesus were both God and yet one.
Trinitarian view is never pagan. It is biblical and Christian.
If one can only remove the mindset that God is numerically one. He can easily see in the passages of the bible the concept being explained. And if still you can’t find it there, look into your heart, it is there.
For all Christians in the end whether they realized it or not are Trinitarians. We pray to the same Father, we pray in the name of his Son, Jesus and prompted and empowered by the Holy Spirit to pray. You’re salvation is Trinitarian, the Father authored it, the Son executed it and provided a way to bring you back to God and the Holy Spirit works in your life to make your salvation a reality.
And so I also suspect that maybe, most of the differences between that two are nothing more than semantics.
That is why when somebody said that Trinitarians are polytheists, it really hurts. Please don’t say that.
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Not so Mistaken....
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hi again Vector...
It is you that misunderstands within his view of God.. I once believed as do you, in the "Trinity", ...but so many texts and proofs lie in God's word along with logic, along with Man, that point to ONENESS, not Threeness...
God would have been decieving to say "I" and "Me" when in truth it was "Us"... YHWH is the only God... Jesus Christ is His Son (which means YHWH saves) and He is SPIRIT... Not 3 persons.. but 3 offices He occupies... Just as I am a Father, Son, Grandfather, friend, etc etc.. Yet still ONE PERSON...
No matter how you observe and describe.. your version contains 3 persons which by individuality compose 3 Gods.. Its okay... one day you will see this, for The Almighty will reveal Himself to ALL...
Blessings to you..
In JESUS, ....WillieH
WillieH, I’ve tried already to read, interpret and reason the scriptures from the Oneness point of view of God.
However, with all honesty I can’t really shake off the distinct personality of Jesus from the Father as described in the scriptures.
The Father and the word is easy by just reasoning - “that you cant consider the word of a person another person”. The Holy Spirit can simply mean God’s Spirit.
But the main problem is the word became a human being. Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ assumed a distinct personality of his own, unique and separated from God the Father by virtue of becoming fully human.(not unless you deny the full humanity of Jesus)
For instance, He has his own human soul. He has a will of his own. (He prayed to the Father, not my will but your will be done.) (not my cup but your cup he said). These passages convey the two are separate persons.
Father God is always invisible, unseen, unapproachable light. Jesus is not.
God is the unbegotten Father; Jesus is the begotten Son of God. How could be the begotten be the same with the unbegotten? How could they be the same and one person? This is hard to imagine.
Can God beget himself? No, he can only beget someone else. And that would be a son. A different person from him
God often describes as the source and Jesus Christ as the medium
From the Father through Jesus.
Paul benedictions were always - God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ. In Paul’s mind they were distinct persons.
By position, God is always above Jesus so that they could never be the same persons.
In the end, Jesus is to be subjected to God, so that God will be in all and above all.
Or he described to be seated on the right hand of God.
At Jesus baptism, while he was in the water, God the Father spoke “This is my beloved son… while the Holy Spirit is descending from heaven and again at the mount transfiguration. The imagery is so clear that it its hard to imagine that they are the same.
If you make YHWH is Jesus, what would happen to the Father? Who would be the Father whom Jesus called as the only true God?
“Let US make man in to OUR own image”. How can God talk to himself like that?
Is it because the Word was with god in the beginning of creation and the agency through which all exists?
How could you reconcile all of these in oneness view? _________________ Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:3
Jesus is also God: John 1:1-3; Phil. 2:6-8; Heb. 1:7-9; Micah 5:2
Jesus is either fully God and the Saviour of man, or He is not God at all: Isaiah 43:10-11
Isaiah 9:6
Matt. 1:21
John 20:26-28
Heb. 1:7-9
John 5:21
John 10:33
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