Consistent Preterism is Damnable Heresy

Eugene Shubert

It was just a few days before His crucifixion when Jesus told His disciples these comforting words:

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3).

Soon after this, in a prayer to His Father, Jesus expressed this same longing: “Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am, in order that they may behold my glory, which Thou hast given me; for Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24).

A home in heaven was never expressed before, until now. Jesus here altered the long established prophetic view of a glorious reign forever on earth. After studying hymenaeanism and full-preterism, I believe I only have one question for the neo-hymenaeans. How do these “consistent preterists” really know that we’re already in the heaven on earth and that it doesn’t get any better than this? Perhaps Christ returned in 70AD and took his saints to heaven. Maybe we’re the damned who were left behind!

See The Allurement of Hymenaen Preterism: The Rise of "Dispensable Eschatology"

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 10:16 am Post subject:

It seems to me that “consistent preterism” is the belief that all prophecies have been fulfilled and there is nothing left for fulfillment. But if the final judgment already took place then there’s no opportunity for repentance after the fact. This, therefore, is either heaven or hell. Where does it say that those in heaven or hell die and then go to be with Jesus? Does everyone understand why there is only one question to answer?

How do we decide between believing that this is heaven in a glorious new earth or that we’re the damned that were left behind from a rapture in 70AD and that the true saints are in heaven?

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2002 10:29 am Post subject:

My message is directed to the damned who believe in what’s called “consistent preterism.” They believe that all the prophecies have been fulfilled and there is nothing left for fulfillment.

I’m challenging ordinary run-of-the-mill preterists with the charge that if they became just a bit more consistent, they’d be damned also. This thread is intended to save these souls from eternal damnation. Primarily, I’m alerting the unsuspecting to a damnable heresy that is so evil that, once believed, it’s practically guaranteed to separate them from a rational mind forever and ever. This spiritualistic heresy is widespread. So be alert. “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1).

slaveofOne · scholar Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 6 Location: L.A.

Greetings in Yeshua,

Just by way of introduction, let me say that while I am not a full preterist, I am a partial preterist. I am also Amillennialist. I arrived at these places through several years of study in the Old and New Testaments with little or no influence by “Preterist” or “Amillenniallist” argument or propaganda, but solely through unaided Biblical study and the Spirit of God as my guide. With that said, I would like to respond to some of brother Eguene’s statements and/or arguments.

> It was just a few days before His crucifixion when Jesus told His disciples…

I think your entire argument here stems from a misunderstanding of heaven. The modern Christian concept of heaven as some spiritual place existing apart from, outside of, and after our world, is not the heaven of the Bible. What is the word heaven anyway? It is the same as the word sky, firmament. It is identified with a wind, or air, breath, spirit. It is insubstantial, but it exists IN the substantial. Yeshua said that if he was casting out demons, then the kingdom of heaven was among them…so the question is…was Yeshua casting out demons? If so, then the kingdom was there—right there, with and among them, following on the trail of the King. The term “kingdom of heaven” might not have been used until this time, but the concept of it certain did, and the prophets, speaking from the Spirit of God, proclaim it’s coming with the first coming of the Messiah.

How do they know that we’re already in the heaven on earth? Mabye because it seems obvious that Scripture says so. But you must be referring to the experience of the believer, not the absolute truth existing apart from our subjectivity. In experience, how does one know that we are in heaven? I think the most obvious answer is the attributes of heaven. Where else does the miraculous occur? Where can someone rise from the dead as Yeshua did? In “the earth,” that doesn’t happen. People don’t rise from the dead. But in heaven, even death is defeated. And Yeshua was raised and did raise people from the dead here on the earth, meaning that heaven had been brought into the world. Yeshua did not come to take us away from the world, but to change the world from within…to take what was lifeless and give it life, to alter what was not God into what was. Miracles are your answer, the same proof that the early Christians brought to their world around them. Look and see that heaven has come!

> It seems to me that “consistent preterism” is the belief that all prophecies…

Again, you bring a sort of literal modern concept to a text that was meant to be understood differently and was written symbolically and metaphorically. The “final judgment” concept that you seem to hold about an actual gathering in front of an actual jury with an actual judge sitting at the end of the world itself is NOT what the jewish understanding of the final judgment was. Have you studied Apocalyptic literature at all? Judgment is the key symbolic element of Apocalypticism, and the symbol of a jury is given to describe something wholly different than a litteral judgment room and jury event. Indeed, the judgment, in Israel’s ancient understanding, wouldn’t bring about the end of the world itself, but the end of the present world—meaning the present state of things such as Israel’s need for redemption (finished by Christ), the victory of death (finished by Christ), the exile of the people from God by sin (finished by Christ), etc, etc, etc. Yeshua stated himself that EVERYTHING the Father gave him to do, he accomplished while he was here (I can give you the verse from the gospel if you’d wish). Also, repentance in the Bible is NOT what we think of as repentance today. We tell people to repent and use the term in a function that is biblically inaccurate. Repentance is something God practices himself—it is an altering of action based on circumstance. And it is clear that the entire purpose of bringing heaven into the natural world would be that the natural world would see it, change (or repent), and become a part of it. Repentance doesn’t disappear with Heaven’s coming, it becomes manifest more.

>> How do we decide between believing that this is heaven in a glorious new earth or that we’re the damned that were left behind from a rapture…

This whole arugment is clouded with definitions and ideas that I just don’t think exist in the Bible. Perhaps a re-examination of “the rapture,” “heaven and hell,” “damnation,” and other such modern Christian concepts would be in good order.

> My message is directed to the damned who believe in what’s called “consistent preterism…

You are so insistant on saying that the person who holds to consistent preterism is damned…could you be so kind as to point out the places in the Scripture where our Lord or the Apostles…or ANYONE damns someone existing at this time who believes consistant preterism? There was an occurance in Scripture where our brethren had to be rebuked for holding to a consistant preterism…but that was because they were holding that concept at a time when the apostles were declaring for certain how some things hadn’t yet been completely fulfilled. The Apostles stopped talking about it shortly before 70 AD, perhaps because that was when it was all done. And perhaps they would not rebuke someone after that time because what they had hoped for had come by that time.

>> I’m challenging ordinary run-of-the-mill preterists with the charge that if they became just a bit more consistent, they’d be damned also….

And I will challenge you and others who hold similarly that perhaps if they re-examined a large portion of their modern understanding and compared it to the Biblical texts and contexts, that they might think differently and not go about damning others and perpetuating the very thing they denounce “deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1).

donaldjamesperry · scholar Joined: 21 Aug 2003 Posts: 4

Someone wrote: "My message is directed to the damned who believe in what’s called “consistent preterism.” They believe that all the prophecies have been fulfilled and there is nothing left for fulfillment. I’m challenging ordinary run-of-the-mill preterists with the charge that if they became just a bit more consistent, they’d be damned also."

[From DJP] Do you believe in the Westminster Confession of faith, or do you believe that those who have held to the WCF are of the elect?, and if so what do you do with chapter 32?

The Westminster Confession: Chapter 32 - Of the State of Man After Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead 1. THE bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none. 2. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever. 3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.

[From DJP] Note that here the "The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies" WITHOUT A RESURRECTION. Therefore, are all those who have believed in the WCF also damned since they too have believed that their souls do not need a FUTURE resurrection to be brought into the most holy place? Or is it the FLESH which is the focus for your redemption and salvation? If so then please show where the Bible indicates this, that the focus of our resurrection has to do with our Flesh/Body (as opposed to our souls, or as opposed to our entire being). I know of no verses that indicate that Christ came to resurrect our bodies but to keep our souls in the state they are in without a resurrection. What the WCF preaches therefore is nothing other then what you are calling damnable heresy, that is that our souls are NOW in a state equal to that of the resurrected souls future. God will decide who is damned and who is not damned, we will however have to answer for hasty words. Words given without support in light of future questions. If you have no faith in your own words (to offer necessary support for them) why should anyone else? If one is going to continue to call men heretics without supporting arguments in light of the facts what can one expect but that he himself will be judged by God?

DJP

PS I am not a Preterist.

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:48 am Post subject:

donaldjamesperry · scholar Joined: 21 Aug 2003 Posts: 4

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:33 pm Post subject:

Hi Donald,

I'll go as far as saying that all the dead are definitely dead, every last one of them. I won't say that all the living we see around us are the only living. Scripture says that "Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5) and you may recall the Old Testament story about Elijah being taken up in a fiery chariot.

donaldjamesperry · scholar Joined: 21 Aug 2003 Posts: 4

"If the word soul in this instance means the whole person ..."

Well ... I guess then you are a little closer to what I belive then most people. I too focus foremost on the second coming because I do not believe we have what makes for resurrection life yet, altogether.

DJP

slaveofOne · scholar Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 6 Location: L.A.

Perhaps the greatest question that we must ask ourselves when searching for truth is not "what is the evidence for what I believe?" but "what are the weaknesses and flaws in my peception?" ie how might I be wrong? This is one area where my partial preterism makes me suspect myself: The flow of history.

Francis Schaeffer said "History is not just static, as some existentialists or Eastern thinkers would tell us. History is really going someplace." (Genesis in Space and Time)

The problem for me as a partial preterist is I don't know where history is going *now.* I believe that Scripture is virtually fulfilled (with the exception of 1. the ressurrection of the dead 2. the great judgment 3. the restoration of the perishable world into the imperishable world) But these three occur at the very end, and there’s no progression through time that slowly brings about these events. Thus…what is the active movement of history right now?

I can say it is to bring about more people into knowledge and communion with God…but as time goes on, populations increase and the command to be fruitful and multiply continually brings new people into the world…so this is a never-ending objective….and thus seems to disqualify itself. Indeed, my partial preterism stance is that the gospel being spread to all nations had been fulfilled before that first New Testemental generation died.

The flow of history is not a never-ending objective but a forward motion from point to point with a clear and end result, which furthers more future end results. It is going somewhere. If the purpose of history now is simply to continue in something that will never end until the earth is destroyed, this is not something that is going somewhere, this is something that is standing still…like paying rent. You’re not truly accomplishing anything, you’re simply maintaining a perpetual state.

As a P.P., I believe the gospel spreading to all nations was and has been accomplished, the end result was Christianity and the entire world being changed forever by it. What was to happen after? The gospel came and promulgated and altered the history of the earth. The stone not cut by human hands in Daniel has grown into a mountain that fills the earth. The kingdom of God is established and the promises of scripture are fulfilled, from the ingathering of the gentiles, to the coming of the Messiah, to the establishment of the eternal covenant. Now what? The Bible is over. There’s no new “scripture.” There is now a multi-ethnic people spread across the world with the spirit of God forming a body of Christ…and it must have a historical flow before the end of it all.

Since Scripture is fulfilled for me, it seems that what is left is the Spirit which has replaced Scripture theologically and literally in the new covenant. So the question is, what and where is the Spirit taking history? Unfortunately, this is not as easily seen as opening up the Bible and reading something off a page. It would seem one would have to have farsightedness and discernment of the times, past and present, to see it at all clearly, especially since so much of the proclaimed kingdom of God is nothing other than the kingdom of the Satan.

Thus, to conclude...my P.P leaves me currently with two options: 1. unable to understand the flow of history now, in the recent past, or in the future or 2. left with a daunting task of trying to sift through overwhelming numbers of subjective evidence in search of the Spirit behind it all and then wondering when or if I finally put it all together if I actually got it all right. :) Not a fun place to be.