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In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
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Eugene Shubert the new William Miller

Joined: 06 Apr 2002 Posts: 1082 Location: Richardson Texas
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: The meaning of the dictum "Shut up and calculate!" |
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I've seen the famous dictum "Shut up and calculate!" attributed to Paul Dirac and Richard Feynman. More important than the question of who originated the phrase is the remarkable wisdom and purpose of those words in the context of physics.
Please consider the following statements:
"I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'But how can it possibly be like that?' because you will go down the drain into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that." [1].
"Some of our descriptions of reality ... cannot be related easily to common, everyday experiences. In quantum mechanics for example, weird phenomena such as “superposition” and “entanglement” have no satisfying, intuitive explanations—yet they are described mathematically in ways that make consistently confirmed laboratory predictions and may even be used someday in super-fast computers. There are physicists who claim not to be bothered by this lack of a mental picture; they belong to what some call the 'shut-up-and-calculate' school. So long as the model makes good predictions, who cares?" [2].
"Most physicists consider non-instrumental questions (in particular ontological questions) to be irrelevant to physics. They fall back on Paul Dirac's point of view, later expressed in the famous dictum: 'Shut up and calculate' often (perhaps erroneously) attributed to Richard Feynman." [3].
I would like to tighten up the arguments of Dirac and Feynman a bit in favor of the "shut-up-and-calculate" school. I believe that I'm in perfect agreement with the "shut-up-and-calculate" philosophy. We're not saying that we prefer mathematically difficult axioms above simpler ones. We're saying, shut up, find simpler axioms and prove theorems if you can, but simplistic arguments and fruitless axioms that don't produce any mathematics are of zero worth when compared to axioms that generate mathematical models and predictions in agreement with experiment.
I have assembled some great quotes in a paper that expresses this philosophy admirably. [4]. If you stumble upon or know of any other great quotes along this line, please post them in this thread. I will be inserting the "Shut up and calculate!" quote in "The Axiomatization of Physics - Step 1" eventually, along with this great statement by John von Neumann that I came across just today:
"The sciences do not try to explain, they hardly even try to interpret, they mainly make models. By a model is meant a mathematical construct which, with the addition of certain verbal interpretations, describes observed phenomena. The justification of such a mathematical construct is solely and precisely that it is expected to work." [5].
I wish that the moderators of sci.physics.foundations would openly affirm that mathematical rigor is obviously the smartest approach to physics and that spending time on threads arguing with those who disagree and who offer no axioms that generate a mathematical model, is like being taken on a rabbit trail safari. |
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Eugene Shubert the new William Miller

Joined: 06 Apr 2002 Posts: 1082 Location: Richardson Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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I've searched the internet a bit more on the meaning of "Shut up and calculate" and have concluded that it originally meant the positive and practical notion that I and many others have ascribed to it [6][7]. I also believe that Feynman was the first notable scientist to turn that expression on its head by using it at least once in a sarcastic context.
I found these statements by Charles Francis, Wojciech Hubert Zurek and N. David Mermin to be very interesting:
"My experience is that string theorists do not even acknowledge that there are questions in foundations of quantum mechanics. The discussion is non-mainstream, because mainstream physicists do not acknowledge the discussion. This is principally a matter of sticking their head in the sand and refusing to look at what they do not understand. And they do it by taking the very precise words of Dirac, that in the quantum domain certain ideas cease to make sense so that we cannot talk about them, and turning it into ‘shut up and calculate’ whereas what they should be doing is working out, equally precisely, what we can talk about, and indeed, how we can talk about it." [8].
"The message seems to be that there is really no problem and that quantum mechanics can be ‘tame’ and confined to the microscopic domain. Indeterminacy and the double-slit experiment are of course discussed, but to prove peaceful coexistence within the elbow room assured by Heisenberg’s principle and complementarity. Entanglement is rarely explored. This is quite consistent with the aim of introductory quantum-mechanics courses, which has been (only slightly unfairly) summed up by the memorable phrase ‘shut up and calculate.’ Discussion of measurement is either dealt with through models based on the Copenhagen interpretation ‘old orthodoxy’ or not at all. An implicit (and sometimes explicit) message is that those who ask questions that do not lend themselves to an answer through laborious, preferably perturbative calculations are ‘philosophers’ and should be avoided." [9].
"Fifteen years ago, I mused in a Reference Frame column on how different generations of physicists differed in the degree to which they thought that the interpretation of quantum mechanics remains a serious problem (Physics Today, April 1989, page 9). I declared myself to be among those who feel uncomfortable when asked to articulate what we really think about the quantum theory, adding that `If I were forced to sum up in one sentence what the Copenhagen interpretation says to me, it would be "Shut up and calculate!" [10].
I also found what seems to be a very credible history oriented website and it essentially says that "Shut up and calculate" originated with Niels Böhr. Naturally, when I read the following quotes, I see and can separate the unfavorable commentary from the actual historical details:
Copenhagen Interpretation (CI)
"This is the granddaddy of interpretations, championed by the formidable Niels Böhr of Copenhagen University. He browbeat all dissenters into submission (with the notable exception of Einstein) at a Brussels conference sponsored by a philanthropist named Solvay in 1927. Böhr thereby stifled the debate for a generation or two.
"The CI stretches the meaning of the word ‘interpretation’. It essentially says, ‘Thou shalt not ask what happens before ye look’. Böhr pointed out that the Schrödinger equation worked as a tool for calculating where the particle would be, except that it 'collapsed' as soon as you looked at the experiment. If anyone asked why this was, he would say, "shut up and calculate" (or words to that effect).
Summary
"In 1927, at the Solvay Conference, Niels Bohr succeeded in constructing an orthodoxy (the Copenhagen interpretation) which allowed physicists to continue building their armoury of quantum mechanical techniques, while avoiding the frightening questions of what actually happens. He simply said that it was meaningless to give a photon spatial attributes until the wavefunction collapse. This developed into the creed of logical positivism, adherents of which argue it is meaningless to discuss anything that cannot produce concrete experimental results. Positivism is still a major factor in the teaching of physics; students are still told to ‘shut up and calculate’ rather than inquire after meaning." [11].
Of course, my interpretation of the Böhr model is that all of the meaning of it is contained in the mathematical formalism and that it is proper to respond to questions outside of that model by saying ‘shut up and calculate’. I also still stand by my clarification of the subject. In essence, "Be quiet and prove a theorem." This is worth repeating. Simplistic arguments and fruitless axioms that don't produce any mathematics are of zero worth when compared to axioms that generate mathematical models and predictions in agreement with experiment.
I deeply respect this philosophy:
When asked whether the algorithm of quantum mechanics could be considered as somehow mirroring an underlying quantum world, Bohr would answer, "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature." [12].
| Charles Francis wrote: |
I would like to add this quote, from Carlo Rovelli on the purpose of Relational Quantum Mechanics:
"... to do for the formalism of quantum mechanics what Einstein did for the Lorentz transformations: i. Find a set of simple assertions about the world, with clear physical meaning, that we know are experimentally true (postulates); ii. Analyse these postulates, and show that from their conjunction it follows that certain common assumptions about the world are incorrect; iii. Derive the full formalism of quantum mechanics from these postulates. I expect that if this program could be completed, we would at long last begin to agree that we have understood quantum mechanics". |
Charles, thanks. I think that's a great and very useful quote but I have one question about it. The real heart of quantum mechanics is revealed by the phenomenon called interference. It is, in Richard Feynman's words, "the only mystery." Other than creating simpler mathematics, how is it possible that the physics of the double slit experiment could be made any clearer?
| Charles Francis wrote: |
| Observable quantities like position which we normally take for granted cease to make sense between measurements, and that we cannot therefore talk of those quantities between measurements. That leaves open the notion that we can develop a meaningful description of matter between measurements, just not one based on classical ideas. |
If you know of an axiomatic toy QM model that is truly probabilistic where particles always exist even when not being measured, then I would happily study such a model. Isn't Feynman's path integral approach to quantum mechanics a model of this type?
| Peter wrote: |
| Rigorous mathematics is a _prerequisite_ of rigorous theoretical physics, no more and no less. |
I thought that John von Neumann said in the quote I provided that all science is essentially building mathematical models. And from a quote in my paper [13] I also believe that David Hilbert wanted to build such a mathematical model for all of physics. So for at least these two giants, physics is math.
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| Why shut up and calculate? Because physics in the end must yield testable, measurable predictions. I define a measurable phenomena as one which can be numerically described in terms of some combination of mass, distance and time. Anything outside of that, I define outside of the scope of physics ... |
I accept that definition.
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| But, once we shut up and calculate, we are compelled as scientists to then step back and ask what all of this possibly counterintuitive, crazy mathematics is telling us about nature, and to try to arrive at a more intuitive understanding from which we can say "aha, now I understand WHY nature would behave in such and such a way." We need, for example, to take quantum field theory and turn it from something which describes nature, into something which not only describes nature, but which makes intuitive sense. To which many these days may reply: "why does it have to make intuitive sense? Why can't you be happy with just shutting up and calculating?" |
How could a probabilistic theory ever make sense? Are you aiming for hidden variables?
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| Here, there are at least two reasons why one even does physics in the first place which can be thought of on opposite ends of the spectrum: First, to be able to predict how nature will respond to a specified set of stimuli which thereby gives us some control over nature by knowing that if we do such and such X, then nature will predictably respond by doing such and such Y, and getting nature to do such and such Y is somehow useful to us. This is what I would call the "technological view" of physics. |
And it's also true that some leave physics when they learn that the facts of nature don't support their mechanistic philosophy:
Max von Laue, Nobel Laureate 1914, in speaking about de Broglie's thesis on electrons having wave properties, said "If that turns out to be true, I'll quit physics." [14].
"Let me say at the outset, that in this discourse, I am opposing not a few special statements of quantum mechanics held today (1950s), I am opposing as it were the whole of it, I am opposing its basic views that have been shaped 25 years ago, when Max Born put forward his probability interpretation, which was accepted by almost everybody." (Schrödinger E, The Interpretation of Quantum Physics. Ox Bow Press, Woodbridge, CN, 1995).
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| We all know that whatever we observe in the material world, God -- or whatever one chooses to call the natural source of these profound equations such as Maxwell's -- did it. The quest of a serious physicist it to understand HOW God did it and WHY God did it by developing a consistent mathematical framework which can accurately and reproducibly tell us what God will measurably do (or a set of probabilities about what God might do -- though I stubbornly maintain a personal, intuitive, philosophical aversion to dice playing by God), in response to a given set of measurable inputs. |
The laws of physics are ultimately probabilistic. God not only plays dice with the universe, --He cheats.
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| Now, with all of the above under our belt, I respectfully submit that anyone who takes seriously the prospect of eventually unifying all of the forces of nature and understanding all natural physically-measurable phenomena using a single, all encompassing theory from which all measurable phenomena in the material universe can be accurately and consistently and reproducibly deduced, can never rely exclusively on the "shut up and calculate" school, because that only takes one so far. |
But hopefully we can admit the possibility that the final theory of everything is a probabilistic "shut up and calculate" theory.
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| God did precession and redshift and light bending. But, General Relativity also has the indispensable philosophical virtue that it allows us to understand HOW and WHY God did it, using the exceptionally elegant and simple tools of non-Euclidean geometry and geodesic motion through this geometry. Einstein will be eternally credited on this planet with wresting this knowledge from God's mind, as Maxwell previously wrested his equations. |
I've read that Einstein only wrestled mathematicians to get the field equations. Aren't you forgetting the contributions made in the creation of general relativity by Marcel Grossmann, David Hilbert, Tullio Levi-Civita, Hermann Weyl, Felix Klein, Emmy Noether, and a number of other mathematicians? [15]. |
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Eugene Shubert the new William Miller

Joined: 06 Apr 2002 Posts: 1082 Location: Richardson Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: Physicists not satisfied With the Axiomatization of Physics |
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| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| e.Shu...@yahoo.com wrote: |
I deeply respect this philosophy:
When asked whether the algorithm of quantum mechanics could be considered as somehow mirroring an underlying quantum world, Bohr would answer, "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature." [12]. |
This quote was not attributed to any particular physicist in the article you linked to. |
A better source would have been Quantum World Is Only Smoke and Mirrors [16] at physicstoday.org, October 2004, page 15, which cites A. Petersen, Bull. At. Sci. 19, 8 (1963):
| Quote: |
In his Reference Frame column "What's Wrong With This Quantum World?" (Physics Today, February 2004, page 10), David Mermin comments on a statement attributed to Niels Bohr by his associate Aage Petersen: When asked whether the algorithm of quantum mechanics could be considered as somehow mirroring an underlying quantum world, Bohr would answer
"There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature." |
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| I will say simply that I personally, could not disagree more! |
There is nothing to disagree with. Bohr's statement is merely a colorful and philosophical restatement of the perfection called axiomatization.
| Jay R. Yablon wrote: |
| The task of physics IS to find out how nature is! Everything else is a cop out from what is certainly a difficult but a necessary road. |
We already know how nature is. Nature is non-deterministic. There is no logical reason to believe that one can attain more than the axiomatization of physics. |
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