A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 14 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:24 am Post subject: Jesus in hell?
First of all, let me explain that I believe in the doctrine of soul sleep, which is why the Scriptural verse of 1 Pet. 3: 19 baffles me. It mentions that Jesus ministered to the spirits in prison. Obviously, the apostate doctrine of the immortal soul would argue that on the second day after the Lord was crucified, he went into hell to release all the unsaved who never got a chance to hear the gospel.
It does beg the question of how anybody outside the Jewish nation was brought to God, before the gospel. I could contend that it would have been by the faith of the person, manifest in their life by living equivalently close to the Commandments, ie. Faith made right by works, just as Abraham was obedient to God. But that is digressing from the original point:
1 Peter 3. [18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
Can anybody explain what this means? Does it refer to angels? And if anybody wants to comment on anything else in this post, I would be glad for the input.
Thank You, Matthew. _________________ And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:23.
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 14 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:15 am Post subject:
Well, it took some research, but I've been granted some information that elucidates the text when taking into account the doctrine of soul-sleep:
Quote:
CHRIST... preached unto the spirits in prison. 1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6
WHEN did Christ preach to these antediluvian "spirits in prison"? If after they died: then why did God wait "in the days of Noah," when they could still have another chance later? And why did only those people of Noah's time get a second probation, when "God is no respecter of persons" (Act 10:34)? Death is the end of probation, there's no more chance afterward (see Isa 38:18; Ezk 18:26; Luk 16:24- 31; Heb 9:27; 2Co 5:10; 3a). So the preaching occurred "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (1.Pet 3:20); these phrases explain the time of the preaching, NOT the time of disobedience - the antediluvians were already disobedient before "the ark was a preparing": that was the whole reason why God planned the flood (and ark) in the first place (see Gen 6:5-14)! In the next chapter of Peter's epistle, he says that the gospel " was ... preached also to them that are dead" (1.Pet 4:6); while they were still alive, the gospel "was ... preached" (past tense) to them - then they died, and now they "are dead" (present tense).
HOW did Christ preach to these antediluvian "spirits in prison"? "And the Lord said, My Spirit [the Holy Spirit] shall not always strive [or plead] with man, ... yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years" (Gen 6:3); this is from the chapter about when "the ark was a preparing", "in the days of Noah". And from the main passage in 1.Peter 3:18-20, we read that "CHRIST... [was] quickened [raised from the dead] by the Spirit: By which [the Holy Spirit] also He [CHRIST] went and preached unto the spirits in prison".
WHO did Christ use - through the power of the Holy Spirit - to preach to these antediluvian "spirits in prison"? Again, we find our answer in Peter's very own writings: "God ... spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness" (2.Pet 2:4,5). WHERE were these antediluvian "spirits in prison", when the Holy Spirit pleaded with them through the preaching of Noah? It doesn't say: "disembodied spirits", they were still alive on this earth - the word "spirit" can refer to a living person (see 2r). But what is the "prison"? Once more, Peter's own writings give the answer: "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage" (2.Pet 2:19); and CHRIST Himself said that "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (Jhn 8:34; see Luk 4:18; Isa 61:1; 42:6,7). Now we can understand why the passage says: "the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient [sinning]" - they were slaves in Satan's prison-house of sin; not physically in prison, but spiritually ("spirits in prison").
-----
Well, that's what I have. I'm a little disappointed I have to answer my own question, but as it is written: "seek and you shall find". _________________ And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:23.
I can share what I believe about this issue, if you'd like. It may cause a little bit of unrest - I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist - but I'd like to respectfully throw in my two cents. My response may also reveal my ecclesiastical loyalties.
First off, I'm not familiar with SDA doctrine, but you said the idea that the soul was immortal is an apostate idea. I've heard the same from the Jehovah's Witnesses. They explain this scripture in a very disconcerting manner. They believe God sent the flood to kill his angels that had incarnated themselves in order to have "relations" with the daughters of men. Those angels then lost the ability to become flesh, and those are the demons that plague us now. They believe that Christ did not preach, but that he did go to pronounce their condemnation.
My belief differs. I don't expect to convince anyone that my ideas concerning the human soul are better than anyone else's; but I do believe it lives on independent of the body. I have read the Old and New Testaments many times, and I find just as many scriptures supporting the doctrine of an immaterial soul as there are to rebut it, but I'm not here to prove that.
Catholics base their claim to Apostolic authority on Matthew 16:18,19. They think it means Peter would be the foundation of the church, and that it would never be taken from the earth. This is a fallacious interpretation of this scripture, and herein, I believe, lies one of the keys to understanding Christ's role in preaching to the imprisoned spirits.
What are gates for? They keep something in or out. For the gates of hell to prevail they have to succeed in keeping something in or out. What was it not going to prevail against? Was it the church? The Greek word for here translated prevail, katischyo, means to overpower in the sense of holding back, retaining, or suppressing. The thing to be suppressed is not the church. The object is not in the accusative, but in the partitive genitive. Whatever it is being held back, it is "hers." It belongs to hell, it is rightfully hers. What belongs to hell but the hell-bound; the sinners? Hell will not succeed in retaining her prisoners.
Revelations states that Christ not only has the keys to death, but also to hell (Rev. 1:18). David praises the Lord saying, "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell." Christ has the power to free a soul from hell. Who will receive this awesome gift? Could it be those that have died without the opportunity to accept the Gospel in its fullness? Read the next chapter of Peter. Verse 6 says, "for this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Read Isaiah 24:22; 42:7; 49:9, and John 5:25.
If all are to be judged shouldn't they at least be informed of what they are going to be judged for? If someone breaks a commandment they didn't know existed, should they be forgiven? What of the billions that have lived and died without ever having heard the word Christ? Can they be saved in ignorance? Of course not. They must be informed and be baptized in order to be saved. Mark 16:16; I Corinthians 15:29. In what other way can the Lord save those that have failed in ignorance? If there is another way it is not even eluded to in the scriptures.
This is what I have arrived at, and I'm sure y'all will have other ideas, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: Opening an old topic
Hello all,
I know this is old stuff but it is important nonetheless.
There are many references to "prison" throughout the scriptures. In many cases the word "prison" refers to those who are in spiritual darkness. The reason Naoh was mentioned in the context of these verses is because Jesus was preached through Noah to this who were in spiritual darkness before the flood. . .the antideluvians. Read EGW comments on Genesis 6:3.
This is a very simplified explaination of this issue, but from my experience if I can understand any of the bible it must be simple. I admit there are some very taxing and complex statements like ". . .that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature. . ." this is way out of my reach. But that is where faith comes in, knowing by faith that this is true.
God Bless you
Jeff W _________________ God Bless you
Jeff W
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 2 Location: Eureka, Nevada
Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:
dan wrote:
I can share what I believe about this issue, if you'd like. It may cause a little bit of unrest - I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist - but I'd like to respectfully throw in my two cents. My response may also reveal my ecclesiastical loyalties.
First off, I'm not familiar with SDA doctrine, but you said the idea that the soul was immortal is an apostate idea. I've heard the same from the Jehovah's Witnesses. They explain this scripture in a very disconcerting manner. They believe God sent the flood to kill his angels that had incarnated themselves in order to have "relations" with the daughters of men. Those angels then lost the ability to become flesh, and those are the demons that plague us now. They believe that Christ did not preach, but that he did go to pronounce their condemnation.
My belief differs. I don't expect to convince anyone that my ideas concerning the human soul are better than anyone else's; but I do believe it lives on independent of the body. I have read the Old and New Testaments many times, and I find just as many scriptures supporting the doctrine of an immaterial soul as there are to rebut it, but I'm not here to prove that.
Catholics base their claim to Apostolic authority on Matthew 16:18,19. They think it means Peter would be the foundation of the church, and that it would never be taken from the earth. This is a fallacious interpretation of this scripture, and herein, I believe, lies one of the keys to understanding Christ's role in preaching to the imprisoned spirits.
What are gates for? They keep something in or out. For the gates of hell to prevail they have to succeed in keeping something in or out. What was it not going to prevail against? Was it the church? The Greek word for here translated prevail, katischyo, means to overpower in the sense of holding back, retaining, or suppressing. The thing to be suppressed is not the church. The object is not in the accusative, but in the partitive genitive. Whatever it is being held back, it is "hers." It belongs to hell, it is rightfully hers. What belongs to hell but the hell-bound; the sinners? Hell will not succeed in retaining her prisoners.
Revelations states that Christ not only has the keys to death, but also to hell (Rev. 1:18). David praises the Lord saying, "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell." Christ has the power to free a soul from hell. Who will receive this awesome gift? Could it be those that have died without the opportunity to accept the Gospel in its fullness? Read the next chapter of Peter. Verse 6 says, "for this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Read Isaiah 24:22; 42:7; 49:9, and John 5:25.
If all are to be judged shouldn't they at least be informed of what they are going to be judged for? If someone breaks a commandment they didn't know existed, should they be forgiven? What of the billions that have lived and died without ever having heard the word Christ? Can they be saved in ignorance? Of course not. They must be informed and be baptized in order to be saved. Mark 16:16; I Corinthians 15:29. In what other way can the Lord save those that have failed in ignorance? If there is another way it is not even eluded to in the scriptures.
This is what I have arrived at, and I'm sure y'all will have other ideas, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
Hi Dan:
In Revelation 1:18 Jesus said that He died and is alive forevermore. If Jesus was actually alive in the spirit and did not die 100% and preached to the "spirits in prison" from the time he said it is finished and gave up the ghost tilll Sunday morning when he came out of the grave, then he is a lier and not a prefect sacrifice without blemish and what you are advocating is really a false gospel. If Jesus did not die 100% like the unrepentant sinner will die in the second death, then what hope does any of us have? _________________ grw
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