A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
you 2 just want to shove your FLESHLY WORK AGENDA down someones throat ...
And you just want to avoid the God appointed work required to achieve salvation and save others.
To illustrate the point even more clearly, the verb form of 'pistos', which is translated 'believe in' in your English bible actually is 'pepistomai', which is a passive voice reflexive verb that takes both an indirect and direct object. It literally means, "entrust yourself to", as when Jesus says "entrust yourself to me".
The difference between 'believe in me' and 'entrust yourself to me' is like black and white.
I will show you the difference with a story:
WillieH, Rogue, and Alpha went mountain-climbing. Half way up the mountain, they were moving along a ledge above a shear 1000 ft drop, when the middle part of the ledge broke away, stranding WillieH and Rogue, with AlphaWolf waiting behind from whence they had come. It was soon obvious that not only could they not easily go back, but they could not go forward at all, because the ledge ended around the corner. Alpha said, "You have to jump back to me. It is too wide to make it, but I can reach out enough to catch you and get you home!" Quickly all agreed that this was the only course of action. Everyone BELIEVED IN AlphaWolf's plan. It was obvious. It was even more obvious that WillieH and Rogue had to make the jump soon, for they were getting cold and tired, and would soon fall off the ledge from fatique, and plummet to their death. Rogue went first. He hesitated, then leaped into space. He knew that AlphaWolf might miss, or worse, he might deliberately fail to catch him. But he went anyway, pessimism and all, not really BELIEVING IN AlphaWolf, but having no real choice. Now it was WillieH's turn. He could not jump. The other two begged him to leap, but he was paralyzed. "What is wrong?" shouted AlphaWolf: "Can't you see its the only way down? Don't you believe in me?" "Yes, yes I can see that!" said WillieH: "I BELIEVE IN YOU. You obviously caught Rogue." "Then why can't you jump?" "Because I have just discovered that BELIEF isn't enough! Or even the most important thing! I should have overcome my physical fear by practising what I preached! I haven't the will to tame my own body! My FAITH is worthless!" "But all we can do now is wait, and hope you will stop believing, and start doing! If you finally fall, we will have to go on without you."
Likewise, Jesus said to the rich man, "Sell all you have, and follow me." Although he knew the truth of Jesus' requirement, and BELIEVED IN Jesus, he had to turn away. His modern 'FAITH' was not enough to overcome his own self-interest. BELIEF IN JESUS could not save him. Only obediance, and he was incapable of it, because he never practised it.
hmm... RP, that makes much more sense.
However, no matter what you think you need to GET to heaven, you still need faith to believe in heaven. or anything the bible says that hasn't proven... and the very essence of the bible is not proven, just where certain things are, etc.
And yet Thomas got by without any BELIEF at all it seems:
Jesus: "Lazarus is dead. For your sake I'm glad I wasn't there, so that you may entrust yourselves (to Me) later."
Thomas: "Let's all go as well then, so that we may die with him."
(John11:14-16, MY translation)
Clearly Thomas was convinced they would shortly be stoned to death as frauds.
Thomas: "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails, and my hand in his side, I will in nowise entrust myself!"
(John 20:25, MY translation)
Jesus: "Peace be with you. Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Don't doubt it: Entrust yourself."
(John 20:26-27 MY translation)
Jesus, rather than rebuking Thomas for complete lack of modern 'FAITH', blesses him with a greeting of peace.
Likewise, AlphaWolf, Jesus would have welcomed you as a disciple.
Jesus doesn't give a tinker's cuss about belief. He values loyalty.
Likewise, AlphaWolf, Jesus would have welcomed you as a disciple.
Jesus doesn't give a tinker's cuss about belief. He values loyalty.
Well, too bad he's not here anymore, because I'm definately loyal.
Still though, the quote was not talking about what is needed to get to heaven, but what is needed to have a religion. You need FAITH (modern sense of the word) to even HAVE a religion.
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: Stairway...
WillieH: Hey RP...
You keep on a workin there, you old Real Pharisee.. maybe you'll find that "stairway" to Heaven..
After all, its your "obedience" thats gonna get you there - eh?
(And Not the gift of the Grace... and TRUST in that GRACE! Which, BTW, much like the gift of life you enjoy today, had NOTHING to do with YOU and your supposed "obedience")
In JESUS, ...WillieH
Rogue Physicist wrote:
Quote:
you 2 just want to shove your FLESHLY WORK AGENDA down someones throat ...
And you just want to avoid the God appointed work required to achieve salvation and save others.
To illustrate the point even more clearly, the verb form of 'pistos', which is translated 'believe in' in your English bible actually is 'pepistomai', which is a passive voice reflexive verb that takes both an indirect and direct object. It literally means, "entrust yourself to", as when Jesus says "entrust yourself to me".
The difference between 'believe in me' and 'entrust yourself to me' is like black and white.
I will show you the difference with a story:
WillieH, Rogue, and Alpha went mountain-climbing. Half way up the mountain, they were moving along a ledge above a shear 1000 ft drop, when the middle part of the ledge broke away, stranding WillieH and Rogue, with AlphaWolf waiting behind from whence they had come. It was soon obvious that not only could they not easily go back, but they could not go forward at all, because the ledge ended around the corner. Alpha said, "You have to jump back to me. It is too wide to make it, but I can reach out enough to catch you and get you home!" Quickly all agreed that this was the only course of action. Everyone BELIEVED IN AlphaWolf's plan. It was obvious. It was even more obvious that WillieH and Rogue had to make the jump soon, for they were getting cold and tired, and would soon fall off the ledge from fatique, and plummet to their death. Rogue went first. He hesitated, then leaped into space. He knew that AlphaWolf might miss, or worse, he might deliberately fail to catch him. But he went anyway, pessimism and all, not really BELIEVING IN AlphaWolf, but having no real choice. Now it was WillieH's turn. He could not jump. The other two begged him to leap, but he was paralyzed. "What is wrong?" shouted AlphaWolf: "Can't you see its the only way down? Don't you believe in me?" "Yes, yes I can see that!" said WillieH: "I BELIEVE IN YOU. You obviously caught Rogue." "Then why can't you jump?" "Because I have just discovered that BELIEF isn't enough! Or even the most important thing! I should have overcome my physical fear by practising what I preached! I haven't the will to tame my own body! My FAITH is worthless!" "But all we can do now is wait, and hope you will stop believing, and start doing! If you finally fall, we will have to go on without you."
Likewise, Jesus said to the rich man, "Sell all you have, and follow me." Although he knew the truth of Jesus' requirement, and BELIEVED IN Jesus, he had to turn away. His modern 'FAITH' was not enough to overcome his own self-interest. BELIEF IN JESUS could not save him. Only obediance, and he was incapable of it, because he never practised it.
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: Atoms & molecules, etc..
WillieH: Hi AW...
Sorry to "butt in" again.. but maybe within your absolute "SCIENTIFIC" belief in evoLUTION you might explain a few of the following...
When did say... blades of grass turn into maybe... TREES? Or when did those... TREES turn into FLIES? Or those FLIES turn into BIRDS?
Or did those little amoebas crawl out the ocean & decide the variation that they would be as individuals? Was their converation kinda like.. I wanna be a tree.. [another]I wanna be a fly... [another]I wanna be a bird.. [another]I wanna be a stink bug...
And how about those atoms & molecules... how did THEY assemble themselves from NOTHING? After appearing out of NOTHING from NO PREVIOUS INFORMATION, did the nucleus say.. hey, I need a couple of electron & protons... then I'll MULTIPLY and become an amoeba.. then I'll MULTIPLY so I can become a blade of grass, then I'll MULTIPLY again so I can become a tree... then a fly... then... finally... a bird.. Yeah.. I know its pretty challenging seeing I have no information, but, ...that's what I'll do all right... that's what I'll do!
The THEORY of is a better name for your SCIENTIFIC explanation of the Origin of life... When are the next forms gonna appear?
When did say... blades of grass turn into maybe... TREES? Or when did those... TREES turn into FLIES? Or those FLIES turn into BIRDS?
never
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Or did those little amoebas crawl out the ocean & decide the variation that they would be as individuals? Was their converation kinda like.. I wanna be a tree.. [another]I wanna be a fly... [another]I wanna be a bird.. [another]I wanna be a stink bug...
Nothing decides to become anything else. Did you decide to have white/black skin? did you decide to be the height you are? no. They're just genetic variations and mutations. There are genetic mutations in some humans that allow them to be HIV-resistant, others that process cholesterol better, etc. Nobody decided to be that way, it just happened.
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And how about those atoms & molecules... how did THEY assemble themselves from NOTHING?
Laws of nature. Does a snowflake decide to be a snowflake with all it's intricacies and stuff? no. water molecules just assemble themselves that way because of the laws of nature.
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did the nucleus say.. hey, I need a couple of electron & protons...
neutrons are positively charged, electrons are negatively charged. positive attracts negative. Ever played with magnets?
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then I'll MULTIPLY and become an amoeba.. then I'll MULTIPLY so I can become a blade of grass, then I'll MULTIPLY again so I can become a tree... then a fly... then... finally... a bird..
oh please. amoebas didn't become grass, grass didn't become trees, trees didn't become flies, flies didn't become birds.
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I know its pretty challenging seeing I have no information
PPPPSSSSTTT! DNA!
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The THEORY of is a better name for your SCIENTIFIC explanation of the Origin of life.
EVOLUTION IS NOT THE EXPLANATION OF THE ORIGIN OF LIFE.
Short term memory I see. Maybe you need memory pills. And maybe something extra... I hear almonds are good for memory. How many times do I have to explain things to you until you get it? I guess that's why you post twice, you think everyone is like you and needs to be told multiple times?
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: No... INFORMATION...
WillieH: Hi AW...
Quote:
water molecules just assemble themselves that way because of the laws of nature.
???? Laws? Laws require INFORMATION... Assemble themselves? I thought you said things didnt ARRANGE of themselves? Once again you sidestep the need for something PREVIOUS to be in place (laws of nature) in order that said nature may follow this information/laws... (I say it and ALL things came from GOD)
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I know its pretty challenging seeing I have no information
PPPPSSSSTTT! DNA!
???? DNA? Your SCIENCE is SLIPPING! DNA requires INFORMATION... When it comes down to it, DNA is pretty much NOTHING BUT INFORMATION... BTW - There is enough INFORMATION in the Human fertilized egg to fill the Grand Canyon with books 5 times... where did all the INFO come from.. swami? (I say GOD)
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EVOLUTION IS NOT THE EXPLANATION OF THE ORIGIN OF LIFE.
Then what is YOUR EXPLANATION? You say EVOLUTION is NOT the way, and CREATION didnt happen, so explain to us oh wizard of enlightenment... How did it (all CREATION) happen? (I say GOD)
In your pridefull and blinded state (esteeming your knowledge or the speculating knowledge of others)... you shall for the moment remain in foolishness.. without foundation... I pity this in you, and pray for you... That You WILL one day see...
oh please. i'm not talking about written laws or anything, i'm talking about what happens in nature. Gravity just happens. The speed of light just happens. electrons and neutrons are charged just because they are.
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Assemble themselves? I thought you said things didnt ARRANGE of themselves?
no, I said things don't conciously think about what they will become.
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Once again you sidestep the need for something PREVIOUS to be in place (laws of nature) in order that said nature may follow this information/laws... (I say it and ALL things came from GOD)
Once again you sidestep the need for something PREVIOUS to be in place (of God) in order that said god exists you need previous information
There's a PHILOSOPHICAL theory (not scientific theory) that says that trillions of universes appear every second. All with different laws, all in different dimensions, etc. Some collapse in a trillionth of a second, others (like ours) last for billions of years.
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DNA requires INFORMATION
What do you mean?
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When it comes down to it, DNA is pretty much NOTHING BUT INFORMATION.
DNA IS information. That doesn't mean it requires information.
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There is enough INFORMATION in the Human fertilized egg to fill the Grand Canyon with books 5 times... where did all the INFO come from.. swami?
and 90%+ is JUNK information. Why did god put so much junk into us?
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Then what is YOUR EXPLANATION? You say EVOLUTION is NOT the way, and CREATION didnt happen, so explain to us oh wizard of enlightenment... How did it (all CREATION) happen? (I say GOD)
Evolution is how ORGANISMS change over time. IT DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINS OF LIFE< THE UNIVERSE, OR ANYTHING ELSE.
I don't really know how the universe began, I just know that it all came from one point and is expanding. If you want to believe god did it then fine, i'm agnostic and not atheist, but what bothers me is people who don't believe in evolution, which once again HAS NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING to do with the origins of the universe, life, the solar system, etc.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: One difference...
WillieH: Hi AW...
There is one essential difference between you and I... You and your very SHORT life is based your observations and on your so-called knowledge (which is mostly theory - which amount to nothing)... That, AW, is your (foolish) prerogative.. (assuming that 90-95% of Humanity is dislusional while you & your 5 percent are the only "sane" ones - heh-heh - LOL)
I, on the other hand base mine on my, excuse me, OUR CREATOR.. and... AND.... the life that I live here is NOT ...ALL I HAVE... IT is only the BEGINNING!
One of the 2 of us has learned where we came from, and one of the 2 of us knows where we are going... Can you guess which one?
You, in the quotes, in your own words (in bold) disclose the answer below...
The saddest part for you, is ...within your self-proclaimed definition of your life... this (brief 60-80yrs) ...IS ALL you HAVE.. so pointless is your vision of life... Within your "knowledge" is HOPELESSNESS (how tragic), and this funky planet, full of dispair, full of rage, full of war, disease, fear, etc... is ALL YOU HAVE... (again how tragic is your pride)
The GOOD NEWS (For All - which BTW includes YOU) is that ...YOU are WRONG!
And unlike "RP", I condemn you not, for you are a child of God, whether you know at this time, or not! His sacrifice was on your behalf... And you WILL BOW to HIM one day...
In JESUS ...WillieH
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
Quote:
Laws require INFORMATION
oh please. i'm not talking about written laws or anything, i'm talking about what happens in nature. Gravity just happens. The speed of light just happens. electrons and neutrons are charged just because they are.
Quote:
Assemble themselves? I thought you said things didnt ARRANGE of themselves?
no, I said things don't conciously think about what they will become.
Quote:
Once again you sidestep the need for something PREVIOUS to be in place (laws of nature) in order that said nature may follow this information/laws... (I say it and ALL things came from GOD)
Once again you sidestep the need for something PREVIOUS to be in place (of God) in order that said god exists you need previous information
There's a PHILOSOPHICAL theory (not scientific theory) that says that trillions of universes appear every second. All with different laws, all in different dimensions, etc. Some collapse in a trillionth of a second, others (like ours) last for billions of years.
Quote:
DNA requires INFORMATION
What do you mean?
Quote:
When it comes down to it, DNA is pretty much NOTHING BUT INFORMATION.
DNA IS information. That doesn't mean it requires information.
Quote:
There is enough INFORMATION in the Human fertilized egg to fill the Grand Canyon with books 5 times... where did all the INFO come from.. swami?
and 90%+ is JUNK information. Why did god put so much junk into us?
Quote:
Then what is YOUR EXPLANATION? You say EVOLUTION is NOT the way, and CREATION didnt happen, so explain to us oh wizard of enlightenment... How did it (all CREATION) happen? (I say GOD)
Evolution is how ORGANISMS change over time. IT DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINS OF LIFE< THE UNIVERSE, OR ANYTHING ELSE.
I don't really know how the universe began, I just know that it all came from one point and is expanding. If you want to believe god did it then fine, i'm agnostic and not atheist, but what bothers me is people who don't believe in evolution, which once again HAS NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING to do with the origins of the universe, life, the solar system, etc.
You and your very SHORT life is based your observations and on your so-called knowledge (which is mostly theory - which amount to nothing
how old do you think I am? How old are you?
You obviously know nothing about science. Common parlance does not apply to science in regards to the word theory.
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(assuming that 90-95% of Humanity is dislusional while you & your 5 percent are the only "sane" ones - heh-heh - LOL)
you are a minority of humanity too. And my percent is the smart ones... the scientists, mathematicians, etc.
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One of the 2 of us has learned where we came from, and one of the 2 of us knows where we are going... Can you guess which one?
yes, I know where we came from, but I don't know where we're going. Hence agnostic.
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The saddest part for you, is ...within your self-proclaimed definition of your life... this (brief 60-80yrs) ...IS ALL you HAVE..
you think i'm 60 to 80 years old?
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The GOOD NEWS (For All - which BTW includes YOU) is that ...YOU are WRONG!
not really, if i'm wrong i'll go to eternal suffering at the hands of your "merciful" god.
to use your own words...
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Then what is YOUR EXPLANATION?
don't you have anything good to say except to judge me and to tell me i'm wrong? Talk about pride. You think you know it all. You think you're god.
Repeating mindless rhetoric to try to convert people may work for you, but I need evidence and you're doing nothing except giving christians a bad name.
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: You remind me of my grandchild...
You remind me of my grandchild... she asks if she may go outside, then when told NO, she goes out anyway thinking that the requirement was to ask, not listening for the answer to her question... You are very naive in the same manner... In your supposed knowledge of nothing you think you know it all as evidenced by your "answer for everything" (then hide behind a contrived statement (that you state) that you wish to KNOW what you have yet to understand.)
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how old do you think I am? How old are you?
By your answers, I would say a young person (thinking they know it all), but the point you missed (which you usually do), and that is, that no matter how long you live in this life... it is short... and the pity, because this is all you percieve that you have... so sad..
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you are a minority of humanity too. And my percent is the smart ones... the scientists, mathematicians, etc.
Smart according to YOUR deduction... foolish, according to MINE...
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yes, I know where we came from, but I don't know where we're going. Hence agnostic.
You neither know where you came from (if so, where did you come from?) and definitely do not know where you are going (you must think your destination is oblivion because you do not believe there is a god because he has not come down to your level... if He did that, what would differentiate Him from you? He therefore remains where He is, and thereby leaves YOU to wonder... and leaves you to enjoy your PRESENT pride AND your FUTURE oblivion...
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you think i'm 60 to 80 years old?
You show your denseness with such a reply... get a grip!
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The GOOD NEWS (For All - which BTW includes YOU) is that ...YOU are WRONG!
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not really, if i'm wrong i'll go to eternal suffering at the hands of your "merciful" god.
My God is not the one you percieve preached by Christianity... He IS MERCIFUL... and WILL SAVE ALL - to include you...
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don't you have anything good to say except to judge me and to tell me i'm wrong? Talk about pride. You think you know it all. You think you're god. Repeating mindless rhetoric to try to convert people may work for you, but I need evidence and you're doing nothing except giving christians a bad name.
You may percieve me as you will... however, I do not judge you, only observe you and many foolish answers... I do not stand with HELLFIRE preaching Christianity... I believe in the true CHRIST which LOVES ALL... If you think that is giving Christianity a bad name... SO BE IT!
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