A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Will GOD only save some, ...or as the Word says ...ALL?
ALL...
16%
[ 1 ]
SOME...
50%
[ 3 ]
DONT KNOW...
33%
[ 2 ]
Total Votes : 6
Author
Message
WillieH Universalist
Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 108
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: How many Knees?
WillieH: Hello again Steve...
I find it hard to respond to one that seeks to condescend... You and your below outlined word, display a mode of communication that is NOT COMMON... this in itself serves to puff YOU up before me in conversation... as if use of such language makes your point of view something greater than mine, simply because you display yourself as educated... to this I say... Your use of such words (in bold in your quote) just show that in your attempt to disguise your confusion, you endeavor to prop yourself up as one enlightened...
Foolish as this attempt is, I easily recognize it... My sister once dated an intellectual.. and funny enough, it is these supposedly highly educated folk that COMMUNICATE NOT to the masses... only to their peers which are also as inadequate as they as communicators...
Your use of quotes from others is as insignificant as if not stated at all.. I am not a beginner... I have studied thoroughly for 29yrs.. the Gospel of Jesus Christ... in the SDA church, the Salvation Army, the Healing Rooms Ministry, and others... for you to quote any author that makes statements against Universalism is foolishness to me...
I once believed in (ET and/or) Annihalation as you presently percieve the Gospel message... This is very tainted with Satans effective picture of a God that is a monster... that is UNMERCIFUL, that is VENGENT... there is NO PEACE in your message Steve... it is only GOOD NEWS for those you think recieve it, not GOOD NEWS to ALL... on the contrary... it is MOSTLY ...BAD NEWS... it preaches not a GOD of LOVE.. rather one that IS a Respecter of Persons, one that IS UNMERCIFUL, one that IS a MONSTER... HE IS NOT as you represent Him!!! How could God, determine our eternal destiny based on things about which we did not have complete information? No one has the knowledge of Heaven! No one has the knowledge of Holy Fire! No one has the knowledge of the afterlife places at all! How can we thus judge and decide? You believe in a shallow gospel... one that is not posed in Scripture... You shall see... and so shall your "quoted authors"...
I say that this "gospel" is one that is reserved for JUDGEMENT.. and one that is destined for the Lake of Fire...
Let me say a few things...
One... I don't have to defend Universalism to you or anyone else... Not because it is not a solid and SPIRITUAL teaching, but because it is meant to fall on deaf ears (yours) during the on-going process of the Gospel...
Two... Life is a teacher... and one has to weigh observances and experiences along with prayer and study to truly find out the Holy message within that God has provided for all... If you haven't experienced life and DEATH (loss of many LOVED ones), then you are, to an extend VEILED because of it... You shall see one day when you have aged, ..what I say is true... (Pro 20:29)
Three... There is not a parent that can consider Himself/herself a LOVING parent, that can truly say that He/she would disown and dismiss or KILL, ...ANY child that he/she has sired or adopted... On the CONTRARY... GOD has given us this present position we hold as Parents to enable us to SEE His eternal position...
Four... I have 3 children, and 9 grandchildren... to say they all PLEASE me the same is a stretch... to say that they all LOVE and ENACT the principles I have endeavored to teach them is also a stretch (I know my own parents and grandparents surely at one time or another, viewed me in this fashion)
But to say that I could or would DISOWN, ABANDON or GOD FORBID... KILL and/or TORMENT any of them (with less ability and understanding) for falling short of my (High)standards is to become LITTLE, certainly NOT GLORIFIED in their eyes...
Not only that, but to say that ANY of them are not worthy of being called my son/daughter/grandson/granddaughter because of ANYTHING they DID or DID NOT DO concerning my standards is to BELITTLE MYSELF, not them...
To expect PERFECT behavior from SIN RIDDEN, SIN COMPELLED, SIN NATURED people is to picture God as an UNFAIR and UNWISE teacher... again, on the contrary... HE is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our Faith.. It is HE that DIRECTS our steps... (whether they be the steps of Pharaoh (evil), or MOSES (good) and it is HE that is ORCHESTRATING without RESPECT of PERSONS... the COMPLETE VICTORY over EVIL in EVERY CASE in Humanity... for IN ADAM (our sin/separation inheritance) ...ALL DIE... but IN CHRIST (our sonship/reconciliation inheritance) shall ALL be made ALIVE!
There are many things, that I am sure I could converse with you, that you would react to in the same manner as you have concerning the Salvation of ALL MEN... SUCH AS... how would you like to entertain that there have in fact been only 2 MEN in the history of Humanity? It is scriptural! Can you name who they are?
Is Genesis 1 an account of Creation, ...or a Prophecy? For Genesis 2 contradicts Genesis 1 in many, many ways! Can you find the ways?
I could go on, but your ears appear as dull.. they are entertained and itched by the teachings of the Church, not by GOD.. or HIS WORD... Anyone can prove anything by the bible... but only those teachings that align with truth and LOGIC and SENSIBLITY can be shown to be SPIRITUAL... For goodness sake, An athiest can take your bible and prove God does NOT EXIST!
Do you think for a moment this to be inspired?
I know not your age, but it appears you have much to UNLEARN...
As I previously stated, I will not ARGUE with you about Universalism... You say that it (universalism) has problems, and I say that it is YOUR VIEW that has the PROBLEMS.. for it DOES NOT portray GOD or His mission as His WORD describes them...
In conclusion, ...You either see it, or you are VIELED...
In JESUS ...WillieH ...Servant...
Quote:
Perhaps you would not be so weary if you spent your energy discussing the actual topic rather than repeating irrelevant assertions that have nothing to do with the issue of universalism itself. How about actually dealing with the problems with universalism that were outlined in my post. I can only assume that you have no answer for the questions about universalism my post raised and, therefore, have to resort to the style of communication you engage in. Ad hominem arguments are not relevant in supporting your position nor deal with the problems with universalism.
Regarding whether or not my view constitutes good news or not:
It would seem to me that it is most definitely good news for someone to know that God loves them; that Christ died for them; that they have been reconciled to God; that they have been forgiven; that they are no longer under condemnation; that they have eternal life; and that they only way that they can be lost is if they reject the free gift of salvation. This sounds like good news to me!
One Last thing Steve... Your quote is Good news to you, for YOU, conveniently, are included in the ones saved.. How selfish and subtlely pointed toward YOU is your view of the gospel...
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Now its your turn...
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hello Spozz...
You seem to like to refer to writers other than yourself...
Well its your turn...
Try this link on for size:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/freewill.html#carnal
Read a few of these writings and see how much you disagree with them!
Hi WillieH
Thanks for the link. There are quite a few things I agree with in this article... but not all. In actual fact, I think you misunderstand my view because you continually misrepresent it. Let me be as plain as possible. I believe:
God loves every single person.
God has forgiven every single person.
God has paid the price of sin for every single person.
God has reconciled every single person to himself.
Every single person is saved automatically the moment they are conceived on the basis of the grace of God.
Salvation is not dependent on the works of any person.
Salvation is not on the basis of knowledge of God (to require knowledge would be a form of works).
Salvation is not on the basis of a knowledge of Christ (to require a knowledge of Christ would be a form of works).
Salvation is not the result of accepting Christ (to require a conscious acceeptance of Christ before one could be saved would be a form of works).
Salvation is utterly, absolutely, completely, universally, comprehensively based on grace and grace ALONE - no works of ANY kind - not faith, not acceptance, not behaviour, not character, not personality, not race, not gender.
A baby who dies the moment they are born is saved if grace is truly grace.
A person who has never heard about Christ is saved if grace is truly grace.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON is AUTOMATICALLY ELECT IN CHRIST on the basis of what Christ has done on behalf of that person -- EVEN IF THEY NEVER KNOW IT.
So, a person cannot do ANYTHING to be saved. NOTHING! ZILCH! ZERO!
THIS IS GOOD NEWS!!!! It is wholly and soley based on God's will, works, choice. Do you hear me, WillieH?
That is how people are saved...
There is a way to be lost, though. (And here, and here only, is where we disagree with each other on the matter of salvation.) JESUS talks about judgment, eternal punishment, rejecting light, refusing to listen. It is Jesus that says these things. People START saved, but they can, if they choose to, turn away from their salvation, for all the BIBLICAL reasons I have given before.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Now its your turn...
WillieH: Hi Spozz....
Well, thanks for going to the suggested site... It also appears by your statement of belief that you, to some degree, disagree with SDA doctrine ... for they DO BELIEVE that ACCEPTANCE of CHRIST as PERSONAL SAVIOR and BAPTISM are required for Salvation to be consumated....
One thing to keep in mind, countless Jews have gone to their graves NOT believing in Christ, yet Paul states... "ALL ISRAEL shall BE SAVED" (Rom 11:26) WHATUPWIDAT? (Most misunderstanding of the Gospel message occurs because Jesus in fact was addressing the Jews, not Humanity as a whole in His ministry on the earth.)
I have just a couple of comments about your quote below....
Quote:
There is a way to be lost, though. (And here, and here only, is where we disagree with each other on the matter of salvation.) JESUS talks about judgment, eternal punishment, rejecting light, refusing to listen. It is Jesus that says these things. People START saved, but they can, if they choose to, turn away from their salvation, for all the BIBLICAL reasons I have given before.
First I might preface my comments to say that the word ETERNAL does NOT in fact, truly exist in scripture... it is translated from the word AION which means... an AGE.. an AGE comes to an END... (just as an Hour can never be a DAY and and a DAY can never be a YEAR or a YEAR can never be a decade... an AGE can NEVER be FOREVER)
In "light" of your statement here... If what you claim is so... then CHRIST failed in His mission... Which was (and IS): "...to SAVE that which was LOST". ALL are LOST, so if ANY remain LOST, then He did NOT accomplish His mission, and is therefore, NOT Savior of ALL... If even ONE is LOST, then He is NOT SAVIOR of ALL, but SAVIOR of ALL but ONE... Only the accomplishment in TOTALITY of His mission can bring these 2 things to fruition...
The parable of the LOST SHEEP also would have to be declared as false, for the SHEPHERD (in this view of even one lost) somehow is unable to FIND the ONE (even if only one is eternally lost)...
You are right... I have been UNLEARNING most of the GARBAGE that the bulk of my 29yrs of study have netted... but BY the Grace of Christ as my strength (not by MY effort), I shall so GLADLY unload the rest before the end of my days...
"Where evil abounded GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND" This scripture would also be rendered false in the case of the LOST ONE that Christ was UNABLE to find.. FOR EVIL in the case of this supposed, ...LOST ONE ...MUCH MORE ABOUNDED! (Many, many more scriptures become compromised by the Salvation of only selected ones...)
In the end... GOD brought each of us upon the earth through HIS CHOICE, we were NOT consulted... and therefore it is (and this is thoroughly stated in scripture) HIS RESPONSIBLITY to lead and draw each one back into HIS FOLD (John 14:6 / 6:44 / 12:32)... simply because it is NOT ...HIS WILL that ANY should perish... will He realize HIS WILL? Yesssssssss! For it is the GOAL that all CREATION is appointed to attain through HIS WORK, not ours...
"Our FATHER who art in HEAVEN... hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom COME... THY WILL be DONE (ACCOMPLISHED) in Earth as it IS in Heaven"... simply stated, and divinely accomplished BY the DIVINE ONE...
In the "bolded" portion of your quote, you show that GOD's WILL (the potter) is overcome (negated) by the "choice" of Man (the clay)... to state BIBLICAL opposition to this... "..who hath RESISTED... His WILL?" (Rom 9:19)
Though we see through the glass darkly (salvation of few)... we may still KNOW that GOD's LOVE is UNCONDITIONAL... (agape)... and that ...that LOVE is WELL ABLE to accomplish that which MAN views... IMPOSSIBLE (to wit.. the Salvation of EVERY HUMAN BEING in which HE CREATED, CHOSE for LIFE - by breathing in that person His own breath, brought forth, and through the GLORIOUS process of SUFFERING... SAVED.. that His family may in the END be as prophesied in the beginning... as the SAND of the SEA... as the STARS of HEAVEN...
I WILL see you there Steve, along with ALL the unlikely ones you now percieve WILL NOT...
WilleH and Spozzi, glad to see you kept the conversation going.
WillieH wrote:
I say.. the Gospel (which means GOOD NEWS) can only be the Gospel if it contains GOOD NEWS ONLY.... EXCLUSIVELY... within that message is SALVATION... FORGIVENESS... RECONCILIATION... and PEACE....
WilleH, the scriptures do not seem to indicate that the gospel is good news to everyone.
Quote:
12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 13I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia.
14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
Here the gospel, the knowledge of Christ brought to others, is seen to be two different things to two different camps. To one the savor of life unto life, and to other the smell of death. Why? Because clearly to the ones that rejected it, the gospel was NOT good news. It spelled their death.
As to those who had not had a chance to know about God.
a. It clear from Romans 1 that in fact the problem is not insufficient knowledge of God, but rejection of Him. In fact, Romans 1-3 is Paul's legal condemnation of the world, but his message of hope through the gospel.
Quote:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 3 also makes reference to sins committed before the cross being forgiven by the cross, which clearly indicates that while Jesus' death is the basis for salvation, understanding of every part of Jesus' history is not. David was saved by faith, Abraham was too, as was spelled out in Romans 4, because they understood that they sinned, and God forgave.
b. Cases such as Cornelius, or the vision of the man of mecedonia show that if people sincerely follow God and need to know more, God will reveal it to them. Everyone has a necessary understanding for salvation. In this respect I agree with Spozzi, those who are lost are lost because they reject God.
Quote:
'And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”' (Mt 25:46, NLT)
As to the use of eternal, while as Adventists we might tend to agree with you on the meaning of aios, though sometimes I think we sound like lawyers while doing so, I think we can find other texts that clarify this passage. For instance, here in John 3 we find a similar passage which leaves no room for doubt.
Quote:
John 3:36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
We might debate how long life will last for the believer for this one...does it mean forever? A long time?
But clearly for the one who rejects God they will NOT see life. And it is an issue of wrath. I don't think it could be any more clear.
Here, as in John 3:16-18, and matthew 23 we see that those who believe have life, those who do not believe, do not have life (also in John 5, nearly word for word).
So the only solution that is left is that all believe. You seem to suggest that in your post that every tongue shall confess etc. There are a few problems there.
A. this is a departure from your earlier view where you said the lump cannot determine anything. Now you admit that belief is the key, but say that all believe.
B. A confession of Jesus' status is not necessarily a confession of trust as a Savior.
C. Other texts seem to not only say what happens to non-believers but to clearly state that not all will be saved, and that some do not believe.
So once again, limiting it to one passage at a time, how would you explain this text that Spozzi and I both mentioned:
Quote:
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Why would Jesus say many will not be able to enter?
who are those who are outside of the kingdom?
Is this not a direct statement, as Spozzi said, that in fact some will not be saved?
Finally, as to the ethics questions, these are not biblical arguments, but ones from your experience. That is fine as long as we see them for what they are. But what we are dealing with is not whether you, a human being, would kill your son but whether God would destroy those who not only reject Him, but are poisoning themselves and all around them with sin. The removal of sin is necessary, and if they refuse to give it up, then God has no choice.
Also, by your own arguments we have to conclude that you believe
a. all will confess Jesus eventaully
b. The wicked will suffer for a while atonging for their sins. (this is assuming your interpretation of aionin the passage in Matthew. The punishment would be a for an age.)
is this confession before or after the suffering? ANd either way, would you TORTURE your child? How ethical is that? If it is before the confession it is coercion. If it is after, then why torture the child when you already got what you want?
This is why the key is not our limited view of ethics, but what God says in His word.
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: Embedded....
WillieH: Hello Tal73...
Quote:
WillieH, the scriptures do not seem to indicate that the GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS to everyone...
WillieH: Is that so? Christ commanded that the GOOD NEWS (GOSPEL) be preached to EVERY CREATURE... (Mk 16:15) If it were not GOOD NEWS to EVERY CREATURE, then this scripture is in contention with His COMMAND. This message has to be GOOD NEWS to everyone or it is BAD NEWS to some, GOOD NEWS to others... This verse does NOT make this differentiation....
May I address your below quote... and add that if you wish to address me with scripture, please provide the chap/verse in the future or I will disregard your post... If you wish to discuss a given passage, then it is up to YOU to provide its location, not expect me to locate it, and verify it... thanks... Now onto the verse... (BTW what version are you quoting here? It sounds like a newer english translation, and is QUITE in variance to the KJV)
Quote:
12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 13I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia.
14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
WillieH: the word in verse 14 (perish) is APOLLUMI... which means LOST... Christ came to SAVE that which was lost (APOLLUMI), did He in fact, fail to do so? I think not... below is a short study on the word APOLLUMI... you just may find it interesting if your beliefs are your own and not fed from some religious faction....
"Destruction" is a key term in the Bible used to support the teaching of either annihilation of the wicked or hell fire for eternity or "burning as long as one deserves." The term "destruction" leads to many differences of opinion. But most of the conclusions are not Scripturally based.
How do we come up with the real definition of a word in the Bible? Well, many say that the first occurrence of a word in the Scriptures reveals its meaning. But it is certainly a "reach" to suggest that the first occurrence of a word gives its primary meaning, since it is not known exactly when the Gospels were written. Matthew is thought to have been written around A.D. 50; Mark, the date is not known; Luke was thought to have been written in A.D. 59 to 63, and the Gospel of John, for a long time was assumed to have been written in the A.D. 70's, but it probably was written closer to the A.D. 50's. Paul wrote Romans around A.D. 57, and yet all of these dates are rather tenuous. So just looking at the "first instance" of a word in the Bible does not mean that that was the first instance it was used chronologically. Therefore, the "first" occurrence of the word is not necessarily its "primary" meaning.
The only sound system of determining the "primary" or essential meaning of any word is to gather all of its occurrences in the Bible, and to make certain that its meaning never contradicts any of the contexts in which it is used.
Let's take a look at the word apollumi in the Greek Scriptures. This is the Greek word that is often translated "destroy" or "lost" describing the wicked. But does this word apollumi really mean "to deprive of life" permanently? Let's allow the Bible to interpret itself and give us the true meaning of apollumi.
Uses of the Greek word "apollumi"
On the following pages you will see the many ways the word "apollumi" is used in the New Testament. You will see that sometimes it is translated "lost" such as in the "lost" sheep, when the sheep was alive. In other places, the same word, "apollumi," is translated "perish" or "destroyed" and the implication in these last two instances is that the individual is dead.
But the same word, "apollumi," CANNOT mean "to be alive" in some instances AND "to be dead" in other instances. In other words, the same word cannot mean both "death" and "life."
The definition of the word apollumi, #622 in Stong's Concordance, is shown above. However, this definition is nothing more than a reflection of the mistranslations of the word in the King James Version and various other versions of the Bible.
You will see that this word, apollumi, (#622) is often translated "lost," when the "lost" item was subsequently "found" such as in the parable of the "lost" sheep, the "lost" coin and the "lost" son (Prodigal son) in Luke 15. In NO instance had the sheep, the coin or the prodigal son died. And of course, the coin NEVER HAD life. Therefore, the word apollumi CANNOT mean "to deprive of life."
The same word, apollumi (#622) is also often translated "perish" as in Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish (apollumi) without law:"
And in Peter 2:12, ". . .and shall utterly perish (apollumi) in their own corruption."
And in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10 where it says: "Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish (apollumi): because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
The same word, apollumi (#622) is also often translated "destroy" and is assumed to mean "to deprive of life" as in John 10:9, 10 where Jesus is speaking,
"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. . ."
Please note that there are three words used to describe what the thief comes to do: 1) steal, 2) kill, 3) destroy. The word translated "kill" is the Greek word "thuo" (#2380) which means to slay or slaughter, as in slaughtering sacrifices.
Obviously the word "kill" (thuo) CANNOT mean the same as the word "destroy" (apollumi) for two reasons: 1) each word is a different word in the Greek 2) it would be redundant if the word "destroy" meant to kill, because if it did, the passage would read, "The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to kill."
The bottom line is this: In order to understand exactly what the Lord is trying to teach us, we must understand the exact words that were inspired. The Bible was NOT written in English. It was written in Hebrew and Greek. We must look to the original language, the original words that God inspired, and let the Bible interpret itself. If we don't, then we are taking the words of man, a translation by committee consensus, as our guide rather than the Divine Word of God.
The proper definition of each word in the Greek is revealed when that specific word, such as apollumi, means the same thing each time it is used. Because the word apollumi is used to define a state of "having life" (the sheep was "lost" but alive, not dead), it CANNOT also be used to define a state that is OPPOSITE of life -- DEATH, such as what the theologians would have us believe is meant in Romans 2:12 and 2 Peter 2:12, as shown above.
In other words, one specific word CANNOT mean both a state of life AND a state of death!
It is obvious from these many uses of the word apollumi, that it CANNOT mean "to deprive of life."
Clearly the Bible translators translated these passages according to their own preconceived theological beliefs.
Matthew 2:13 states "And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him." Christians have assumed that the word "destroy" (apollumi in Greek) in Matthew 2:13 must mean "to deprive of life," but that definition has no support Biblically.
There are Greek words that mean "to deprive of life." They are 1) apokteinco, which means "to kill;" 2) sphazoo, slay; 3) anaireoco, assassinate or massacre; or 4) phoneuco, which means murder.
Apollumi is used for things which have no life, such as wine skin bottles (Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37). These bottles do not "die" when they are "destroyed." A reward is not "mortal." See Matthew 10:42 and Mark 9:41 "Verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose (apollumi) his reward." And gold and money do not "die." In fact, they never had life. See Luke 15:8 and 1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being more precious than of gold that perisheth (apollumi)" The words which actually do mean "to deprive of life" could not be used in these passages. Neither the primary nor the secondary nor the tertiary, nor any other meaning of destroy demands that life be taken.
Apollumi is often used to describe something that either remains alive or has never had life. If the lost (destroyed) sheep (Luke 15:4) had been "deprived of life," the shepherd would not have rejoiced when he found his carcass. A word whose primary meaning is "to deprive of life" cannot have a secondary meaning of "continued life." Death cannot be another form of life. White is not another word for black. And life in any form is not expressed by a word which means death.
Jesus said "He who is finding his soul will be destroying (losing) it, and he who destroys (loses) his soul on my account will be finding it" (Matthew 10:39, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33). Is Jesus urging them to commit suicide? The destruction of the soul does not mean death. It means to dis-assemble or destroy the old man of sin, to destroy our carnal nature, to make us into a New Creation in Christ.
Romans 6:6 describes this process. "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin."
The statement that the "Son of Man came to seek and to save that which is lost (destroyed)" (Luke 19:10) is the key to the meaning of apollumi. This Bible passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus, who was lost (destroyed). Because he was lost (destroyed), he was ready to be found and saved.
The Greek word apollumi is often given an interpretation that means death from which there is no resurrection, or annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. But this passage in Luke 19:10 destroys this premise. Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation! It is impossible to rescue a man who is already safe. It is only when he is in a "lost" condition denoted by the word apollumi that salvation can operate in his behalf.
The terms seek and save mean the opposite of destroy. So the one who is "destroyed," is really just lost, not annihilated, or no one would seek after him in order to save him. He must be in a state which needs salvation or Christ would not have come to seek and to save him. This passage proves beyond a doubt that "destruction" is a salvageable condition, not a state beyond the reach of salvation. In addition, please notice that only the "lost" are saved. This fact reverses the usual idea of destruction. God seeks what He has lost!
(All in All, A. E. Knoch)
Destruction is a relative term. The coin was lost (apollumi) in relation to the woman. The sheep was lost (apollumi) in relation to the shepherd. The prodigal son was lost (apollumi) in relation to his father. They were not dead, but they were away from the woman, the shepherd, and the father, respectively. Does this prove that they were outside the sphere of salvation? No, it actually proves the opposite. Destruction is the prelude to salvation! Destruction never means annihilation, irrespective of how closely it may seem to approach that idea in some cases.
Men are lost by God. It was He who created them. He will be the great Loser if they are not saved. A sinner can never cross a line that brings him beyond the reach of God. Remember that Paul says "I am persuaded that neither death (whether the first or the second death) nor life nor principalities nor powers nor any creature (including Satan) can separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:38,39
If we lose something, it becomes more valuable to us than when we had it. If one loses his eyesight, vision assumes an importance and value that the individual never before perceived. Its loss, instead of distancing us from it, actually increases our attachment to it. This becomes tragically true when we lose a loved one. We then realize the preciousness of our lost possession. So we should never assume that God is not concerned about those that are "lost." Nor should we assume that He will sit complacently while they rush on to eternal annihilation because He's helpless to turn them around. There are a million ways God is able to accomplish His will.
God is love and ALL of His creatures are precious to Him. God loves all of us. But whom does He say that he loves? God loves the world and sinners and His enemies and those who are lost. It takes "destruction" for us to feel our need, and it takes "destruction" to flood us with God's Divine love.
Because men are unable to accomplish all that they wish, they imagine that God also is unable to save the vast majority of humanity. This basic error has so warped the minds of men that they have corrupted the Scriptures to uphold it.
All man knows how to do is to kill something that he cannot control such as a hardened criminal. Is this God's way of handling the situation? God says "I'm not like You, My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9). Christ proclaimed Himself as the Resurrection and the Life. How could the God of the Universe give up on and lose that which is the desire of His heart, those for whom He gave the life of His Son? Theologians have made a little man out of a great God. Where man is impotent, man imagines that God is also impotent. Where man is unable to succeed, man imagines that God is also unable to succeed.
Ephesians 1:11 says God is operating the universe "in accord with the counsel of His own will." We must recognize that destruction is a Divine process and a necessary part of the plan of salvation. Let us look at a few texts. Psalms 90:3, says "Thou (God) turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men."
How can human beings return to God if they have been "destroyed," particularly if the term means annihilation?
In 1 Corinthians 5:5 Paul says he is delivering "such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
One is "saved" by the process of "destruction," destroying the old man of sin.
And in 1 Timothy 1:20 Paul is charging Timothy to hold the faith and a good conscience rather than imitating those who have made a shipwreck of their faith "Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."
Giving someone to Satan is for remedial purposes, so they can learn something, not so they can be annihilated.
Again consider the wineskins, which were "destroyed." Everyone who receives salvation was once lost, "destroyed." Not only was "being lost" no hindrance to their deliverance but it was absolutely essential to it. God has lost them and then through Christ, He found and saved them. God has definitely declared that He is the "Savior of ALL mankind" (1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 4:10).
Though the sinner be lost a thousand times, he is not beyond the reach of the Great Seeker. Notice that the shepherd searches for the sheep, not for any specific finite period of time, but UNTIL HE FINDS IT! The same is true of the woman who lost the coin.
Jesus came to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). We are God's creation, we are NOT the work of the devil. The "devil's work" is the sin in our lives. Jesus came to 1) destroy the sin in our lives, but 2) to SAVE the sinner!.
The story of the Potter (Jeremiah 18:1-7) reveals that it is the Potter Himself who crushes the vessel when He discovers it is marred. But the vessel never leaves the Potter's hands during its "destruction" and re-creation into a New Creature.
God does not destroy anything that he cannot completely restore. "Destruction" is a passing process, not a finished goal. The old sinful nature is destroyed as a prelude to the formation of a New Creature in Christ. Remember God says "Behold I make ALL things new (Revelation 21:5)
For additional information on this topic, see the study entitled "The Second Death."
The "Destruction" of the Wicked
Since "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God," (Romans 3:23) then the meaning of the "destruction" of the wicked is important to all of us.
1) How do we establish the primary or essential meaning of any word in the Bible?
2) Does the Greek word apollumi actually mean "to deprive of life?" If not, what does it mean?
3) Is the word apollumi or "destruction" ever used of anything that remains alive? See Luke 15:4, Matthew 10:6, Luke 19:10.
4) Did the shepherd find a sheep who was "destroyed?" If that means "to deprive of life," how could he have rejoiced over the carcass of the dead sheep?
5) The Bible says that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (apollumi). So only the lost (destroyed apollumi) are eventually saved, and this reverses the usual idea of destruction. God seeks what He has lost. Destruction is the prelude to salvation.
6) Do we, as human beings, ever hold things more dear once we have lost them? Do we appreciate our eyesight as much while we have it as we do when it is gone? Do we appreciate our loved ones more, or less, when they are with us or when they are gone?
7) Is God impotent and powerless to cope with those who are "destroyed?" All that we human beings can do is kill. We cannot recall from death. Is God also limited in this same way? Do we make God like us?
8) The passage usually produced to prove the utter destruction of all sinners is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. Perhaps no stronger verse can be found. It refers to a special crisis when the lawless one is on the scene. They receive "the lie" because the love of truth is not in them. Their destruction is preliminary to their judgment. Is destruction a Divine process or the work of Satan alone?
9) In the third angel's message in Revelation 14:10 it says that those who worship the beast will be tormented with fire and brimstone. What is the derivation of the word brimstone? (see Strong's Concordance).
10) Does God destroy anything that He cannot restore? Is He impotent in the face of the adversary, a creature that He has created? Is the adversary smarter or more clever than God? Can Satan win the majority of God's creatures away from God and God is impotent to win them back?
11) Is "destruction" a passing process or a finished goal? Matthew 18:11.
Return to The "Destruction of the Wicked Intro. | Return to List of Topics*************************************************************
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b. Cases such as Cornelius, or the vision of the man of mecedonia show that if people sincerely follow God and need to know more, God will reveal it to them. Everyone has a necessary understanding for salvation. In this respect I agree with Spozzi, those who are lost are lost because they reject God.
WillieH: again, I refer you to the word APOLLUMI... it is NOT possible to REJECT GOD... "...is NOT WILLING that ANY should (APOLLUMI) PERISH..." (2Pet 3:9) "..who hath RESISTED ...HIS WILL?" (Rom 9:19) Concerning the "bolded" portion of the above quote... are you a new Christian? Are you so naive to think that EVERYONE has (possesses) a NECESSARY UNDERSTANDING for SALVATION? Come on my good man, MOST of the 6 billion people on this earth DO NOT have this understanding! GOD will see to it that they will, but the fact remains that even though (surface) Christianity is the fastest growing "RELIGION" on the earth, still... 2/3rds of the Earth DOES NOT have this ASSUMED understanding... Your conclusions are often unfounded my friend...
It is MAN's RELIGIOUS doctrines of tradition that shall perish, not MAN...
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'And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”' (Mt 25:46, NLT)
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As to the use of eternal, while as Adventists we might tend to agree with you on the meaning of aios, though sometimes I think we sound like lawyers while doing so, I think we can find other texts that clarify this passage. For instance, here in John 3 we find a similar passage which leaves no room for doubt.
WillieH: Oh yeah? I beg to differ...
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John 3:36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
There is nothing in this passage that says that GOD's Wrath is eternal... quite the contrary... Gods Wrath: (Ps 30:5) ... but a moment / (Is 26:20) ...a LITTLE moment...
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We might debate how long life will last for the believer for this one...does it mean forever? A long time?
But clearly for the one who rejects God they will NOT see life. And it is an issue of wrath. I don't think it could be any more clear.
WillieH: Again I beg to differ concerning God's Wrath, which is the result of JUDGEMENT of the OFFENDER... dont you think in your view, that JUDGEMENT appears out of context in these verses? That GOD DELIGHTS in JUDGEMENT? (Yes He does, for within it, he RECONCILES the "judged" to Himself...) JUDGEMENT is in the MIDST of the process of RIGHTEOUSNESS.... it is part of ITS PROCESS... I recommend you embrace the WORD of GOD, as opposed to RELIGION...
(Is 26:9) "...when thy JUDGEMENTS are in the Earth, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD ...WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"
(Hos 2:19) " and I will BETROTH thee unto ME forever; yea I will BETROTH thee unto me in RIGHTEOUSNESS, and IN JUDGEMENT, and in LOVINGKINDNESS and in MERCIES"
(Jer 9:24) "But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he UNDERSTANDETH and knoweth me, that I am the LORD (YAHWEH) which exercise LOVINGKINDNESS, JUDGEMENT, and RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Earth for IN THESE THINGS ...I DELIGHT saith the LORD (YAHWEH)"
(Is 33:5) "the LORD (YAHWEH) is exalted; for he dwelleth on high" he hath FILLED, ....ZION ...with JUDGEMENT and RIGHTEOUSNESS.."
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So the only solution that is left is that all believe. You seem to suggest that in your post that every tongue shall confess etc. There are a few problems there.
A. this is a departure from your earlier view where you said the lump cannot determine anything. Now you admit that belief is the key, but say that all believe.
WillieH: I depart NOT from anything... FAITH is GIVEN by GOD, it is NOT our doing... He DRAWS us, He feeds us the WORD of LIFE in which is found FAITH and SALVATION... I state that these things WILL happen to EVERYONE, not of THEIR doing, but of GOD's WILL...
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B. A confession of Jesus' status is not necessarily a confession of trust as a Savior.
WillieH: ..Says who? ...Tal73? ..."A" Savior? Isn't it, ...THE SAVIOR? And who or what gives you the right to determine what is, or is not done via the empowering of the Holy Ghost? (Rom 10:10) "..with THE MOUTH... CONFESSION is made UNTO SALVATION". Are you so blind that you WILL NOT see? What made YOUR mouth confess JESUS CHRIST? Did anyone FORCE YOU? Or was it the Holy Spirit, via His conviction of your sin and your need that DROVE YOU to YOUR KNEES and OPENED ...YOUR MOUTH in CONFESSION? Another could say the same of YOU as you have said in the above quote... now couldn't they? That YOUR CONFESSION was NOT NECESSARILY one of TRUST in "A" Savior....
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C. Other texts seem to not only say what happens to non-believers but to clearly state that not all will be saved, and that some do not believe.
So once again, limiting it to one passage at a time, how would you explain this text that Spozzi and I both mentioned:
WillieH: I can only state that JESUS CHRIST ..IS the SAVIOR of ALL... as noted in many places in scripture... all the processes cannot be determined by any MAN... Not me, ...NOT YOU... I agree with the Bible when it states AGAPE LOVE... this is LOVE ....WITHOUT CONDITION...
As far as your quote...
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22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
WillieH: what you and most "Theologians" do, is ignore what is plainly there in order to satisfy tradition... These verses were spoken to the JEWS.. for Christ was sent to the LOST SHEEP of ISRAEL... NOT to the Gentiles... the words of Christ were spoken to His own people, not to (as you view it) the whole town...
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Finally, as to the ethics questions, these are not biblical arguments, but ones from your experience. That is fine as long as we see them for what they are. But what we are dealing with is not whether you, a human being, would kill your son but whether God would destroy those who not only reject Him, but are poisoning themselves and all around them with sin. The removal of sin is necessary, and if they refuse to give it up, then God has no choice.
Also, by your own arguments we have to conclude that you believe
a. all will confess Jesus eventaully
b. The wicked will suffer for a while atonging for their sins. (this is assuming your interpretation of aionin the passage in Matthew. The punishment would be a for an age.)
is this confession before or after the suffering? ANd either way, would you TORTURE your child? How ethical is that? If it is before the confession it is coercion. If it is after, then why torture the child when you already got what you want?
This is why the key is not our limited view of ethics, but what God says in His word.
WillieH: Let me ask you Tal73, were you COERCED? Were you TORTURED? You misunderstand the fire of GOD... you think of the LAKE of FIRE as something APART from CHRIST... You judge and view the bible carnally to the point that you enact your part in the letter (as did the Pharisees) and miss the point that is found in the SPIRITUAL...
When your baby is dirty, do you not give it a bath? What is your MOTIVE in the giving of the BATH? Is it to TORTURE the baby? Do you DUNK its head under the water? Is the bath intended to be DETRIMENTAL to its HEALTH? And finally, do you "throw the baby OUT with the bath water"?
Or, as a LOVING parent, is your MOTIVE to give the baby the bath lovingly, and carefully so as to NOT HURT the baby... to CLEAN it, and REFRESH it, bringing it back to its ORIGINAL STATE?
If YOU being EVIL can do something so GOOD and HEALTHY and LOVING to YOUR little one...
I ask you, ...how is it that you envision and teach others that GOD is an INFINITELY MORE CRUEL and HATEFUL Parent (than yourself), concerning HIS babies (of which ALL ARE - each of us, brought upon this Earth via HIS DECISION)?
You are so absorbed in your religion that you cannot see the scriptures... MORAL issues and treatments ARE THE POINT... I give you examples that are scripturally based (i.e. who would give to their child a stone when they requested bread - we being evil still know how to give GOOD things to our children, how MUCH MORE will GOD give the HOLY SPIRIT to those that ask... in the end ALL WILL ASK for EVERY TONGUE shall CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD - the ability to do this is only VIA ....THE HOLY SPIRIT...)
Your view of JUDGEMENT is that it is either LASTING - (eternal in consequence or result) or CONTINUOUS (on-going) - never arriving at a conclusion... your (incorrect) view of JUDGEMENT is that, it in essence, it is a BAD THING, ...whereas the Word of God states JUDGEMENT as a GOOD THING amongst GOOD THINGS... it states His WRATH is but a LITTLE MOMENT.. but its END RESULT, produces RIGHTEOUSNESS...
It appears as if your Religion has you misinformed, seeing only from a fleshly and carnal viewpoint...
I pray your eyes might be opened and the TRUE GOSPEL intended BY CHRIST for ALL, will be recieved by you as a child... trusting in the (AGAPE / Unconditional) LOVE of the ALMIGHTY and LOVING GOD of CREATION....
Replacing your present THEOLOGICAL and RELIGIOUSLY COMPLICATED view which portrays our KIND and LOVING GOD as a VENGENT, UNFORGIVING, and UNMERCIFUL being, which is NOT ALMIGHTY, NOT in CONTROL, NOT Savior of ALL whom He created, ....one that is UNABLE to overcome the CLAY and its assumed "free will", and finally one that is found TORTURING His Creation instead of LOVING it...
I pity You, and your disappointing and misled view of Father YAHWEH....
In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant... (universalist - believing even YOU shall be saved.. as will ALL others embedded in the BONDAGE of one Religion or another..)
WilleH, you came here saying you had new truth. But rather than present it, and clarify objections you have name called, said we were pharisees, that we were simply spouting things taught to us by others etc. Since you take such a view, I will "answer a fool according to his folly." I will answer you in the same confrontive way you have answered us.
If you are able to actually deal with the biblical material, then I will listen to you. But if you continue to duck the texts put to you, simply repeating over and over the only 9 texts you appear to take seriously, then I will simply tune you out as you have done us. I have made this reply more pointed, not because I wish to be adversarial, but because you seem to ignore pleasantries. And I do not want to give anyone who is reading the impression that polite words towards you mean that your views are not positively dangerous. You are leading many to think that God will NOT judge the world.
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Is that so? Christ commanded that the GOOD NEWS (GOSPEL) be preached to EVERY CREATURE... (Mk 16:15) If it were not GOOD NEWS to EVERY CREATURE, then this scripture is in contention with His COMMAND. This message has to be GOOD NEWS to everyone or it is BAD NEWS to some, GOOD NEWS to others... This verse does NOT make this differentiation....
A. It is preached as good news. It is not good news because they reject it. I have just one thing to ask you on this, does Paul say that it is to the lost the smell of death? If so, why? And if you can't answer that, don't bother answering this question at all. You will just be ducking the issue.
B. I forgot to put the reference after I initially lost my entire post. Sorry for the inconvenience.
C. I am using the NIV. Why worry about the KJV if you keep quoting the greek anyway? I generally find the greek to match the NIV. And I tend to use the NIV over the KJV because the latter is archaic and many have trouble understanding it, though it is a good enough translation. The real issue is the underlying text anyway, and in that there are some differences, with the KJV following the majority text. But it really doesn't effect most passages.
If you wish to get into that topic, by all means start a new thread, link to it here, and we can debate it at length.
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WillieH: the word in verse 14 (perish) is APOLLUMI... which means LOST... Christ came to SAVE that which was lost (APOLLUMI), did He in fact, fail to do so? I think not... below is a short study on the word APOLLUMI... you just may find it interesting if your beliefs are your own and not fed from some religious faction....
Perhaps if you would actually read the verse at hand instead of going back to your favorite, you would see what it says. Again I ask, why does Paul speak of the perishing, and the scent of death? Hm? Any idea? You have no explanation for it under your view.
As to your article...
A.
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The only sound system of determining the "primary" or essential meaning of any word is to gather all of its occurrences in the Bible, and to make certain that its meaning never contradicts any of the contexts in which it is used.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. But posting a whole article on what the word means is rather silly. The context DOES clarify what it means. To the one Paul's message was the smell of DEATH. It told us exactly what the word means in that passage.
B.
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On the following pages you will see the many ways the word "apollumi" is used in the New Testament. You will see that sometimes it is translated "lost" such as in the "lost" sheep, when the sheep was alive. In other places, the same word, "apollumi," is translated "perish" or "destroyed" and the implication in these last two instances is that the individual is dead. But the same word, "apollumi," CANNOT mean "to be alive" in some instances AND "to be dead" in other instances. In other words, the same word cannot mean both "death" and "life."
This statement is truly laughable. The word was never used to mean LIFE. It was used to mean lost. In one instance it referred to being lost in location, of course, it was a live creature that was lost. And in another, it referred to someone being eternally lost,, as in, not saved. So in both cases it meant LOST, in the figurative and literal sense. In no case did it mean LIFE or death or a state of being. Those were all INFERRED from the context. Which was what he said to do in the first place.
C.
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The definition of the word apollumi, #622 in Stong's Concordance, is shown above. However, this definition is nothing more than a reflection of the mistranslations of the word in the King James Version and various other versions of the Bible.
So why are you worried about my using a version other than the KJV if your own source says it mistranslates?
D.
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You will see that this word, apollumi, (#622) is often translated "lost," when the "lost" item was subsequently "found" such as in the parable of the "lost" sheep, the "lost" coin and the "lost" son (Prodigal son) in Luke 15. In NO instance had the sheep, the coin or the prodigal son died. And of course, the coin NEVER HAD life. Therefore, the word apollumi CANNOT mean "to deprive of life."
He just broke his own first rule, that is to not assign it a meaning that goes against the context. I agree the coin etc. were found, and in two cases alive. But now he is saying the word can NEVER mean that based on these passages? Some consistency would be nice.
E.
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And in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10 where it says: "Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish (apollumi): because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
Wait, so now you he is actually saying it doesn't mean perish, when it is clearly contrasted with being saved. And did you catch that they perished because they did not love the truth so that they might be saved? I thought that never happened?
F.
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Obviously the word "kill" (thuo) CANNOT mean the same as the word "destroy" (apollumi) for two reasons: 1) each word is a different word in the Greek 2) it would be redundant if the word "destroy" meant to kill, because if it did, the passage would read, "The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to kill."
Actually they are chronological.....steal...comes first...kill..comes next...destroy...comes last. It destroys the body, usually by eating we can assume :)
G.
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The proper definition of each word in the Greek is revealed when that specific word, such as apollumi, means the same thing each time it is used. Because the word apollumi is used to define a state of "having life" (the sheep was "lost" but alive, not dead), it CANNOT also be used to define a state that is OPPOSITE of life -- DEATH, such as what the theologians would have us believe is meant in Romans 2:12 and 2 Peter 2:12, as shown above.
Let's say I said a child was lost. Could the child be alive and lost? Could the child be dead and lost? Yeah, I think so. So to say that it can never mean the latter because it didn't mean it once makes no sense whatsoever. Especially when it exists with other phrases that indicate
a. not saved
b. rejection of God
c. smell of death
d. not see life.
The way to define a word is to see how it occurs in each instance. NOT to take the three you like best and impose it on the others. Which is exactly what he has done, while arguing he is doing the opposite.
G.
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In other words, one specific word CANNOT mean both a state of life AND a state of death!
Notice these two verses containing the word Cleave from the KJV.
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Hab 3:9 Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Deu 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
Now of course, this is an English word, but you see very clearly that it had two meanings which were exactly the opposite of each other. It is certainly possible for this to happen, even in other languages. But the real point is that the word does not mean a state of life at all. It means LOST. And the live state or the dead state are totally a function of context.
H.
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Matthew 2:13 states "And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him." Christians have assumed that the word "destroy" (apollumi in Greek) in Matthew 2:13 must mean "to deprive of life," but that definition has no support Biblically.
Come on! I can't believe this guy is lecturing us on context! What did Herod do to all those babies under 2 exactly? He KILLED THEM. I think it is quite safe to assume the angel meant to DESTROY Him as in TO DEPRIVE OF LIFE.
I.
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The Greek word apollumi is often given an interpretation that means death from which there is no resurrection, or annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. But this passage in Luke 19:10 destroys this premise. Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation! It is impossible to rescue a man who is already safe. It is only when he is in a "lost" condition denoted by the word apollumi that salvation can operate in his behalf.
He sets up the definition of his opponents to be that it always means death, in fact, eternal death, from which salvation is impossible. That is not what we intend at all. The word means simply LOST That is what it CLEARLY means from a reading of the text. The context determines what lost means in the particular passage. He just said that the first instance of a word does not indicate meaning. Or that one or two don't. But that each instance must be looked at in its context. But now he wants to limit us to ONE definition for every text. Is it not clear to you that he doesn't at all follow his own rules? The entire rest of the article is his refutation of this false definition.
J. Of course God seeks for the lost. Of course they can be saved. But the Bible also talks about those who have committed the sin against the Holy Spirit who will not be forgiven in this life or the next. It also talks about those who's conscience is seared as with a hot iron. It also talks about a sin that leads to DEATH. And it seems that all the APPEALS to the lost not to be destroyed are pointless if they cannot resist God's will.
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WillieH: again, I refer you to the word APOLLUMI... it is NOT possible to REJECT GOD... "...is NOT WILLING that ANY should (APOLLUMI) PERISH..." (2Pet 3:9) "..who hath RESISTED ...HIS WILL?" (Rom 9:19) Concerning the "bolded" portion of the above quote... are you a new Christian? Are you so naive to think that EVERYONE has (possesses) a NECESSARY UNDERSTANDING for SALVATION? Come on my good man, MOST of the 6 billion people on this earth DO NOT have this understanding! GOD will see to it that they will, but the fact remains that even though (surface) Christianity is the fastest growing "RELIGION" on the earth, still... 2/3rds of the Earth DOES NOT have this ASSUMED understanding... Your conclusions are often unfounded my friend...
A. Is it not God's will that we should not sin? Did he not tell Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree? How did they resist His will? How do any of us? Your argument, wresting two texts from their context's is illogical. You could take anything that God said he wanted man to do, declare it His will, and declare it impossible for man to do it. However, we see it done all the time.
B. Actually I am not a new Christian, I am not naive. And if you read again, you would see that I quoted Paul when he said that it is plain to them through what HE has revealed so they are without excuse. That is God's word on the subject, not my naive opinion. Paul's argument is that they will in fact be given enough information so that they can be condemned. Likewise, Jesus' affirms that we will not be guilty of sin unless we have seen that it is wrong. So clearly everyone is given enough information to make a decision of some kind on. But the reason I cited Cornelius etc. is because it is clear that God divinely intervenes for those who are in need of further information, or who are following Him and want to know more. You are telling me that God's will cannot be resisted, but that He is impotent to make sure that everyone hears the message He wants them to? That is contradictory.
C. Read the whole passage of 2 Peter. Did all of the people who were scoffers repent? It ceratainly doesn't indicate that. It also appeals to people to live a holy life in view of this certain destruction. In fact, the whole point of the passage is to answer the scoffers who say, "when will His coming be"...but they deliberately forget that God judged the world before with water, and will again WITH FIRE. Go read again and realize that this whole passage directly preaches AGAINST YOUR WHOLE MESSAGE. You are the one who tells people that the day of judgement by fire will never happen. You tell people, scoff away, because God will save you all anyway.
Also read the other similar passage in Ezekiel 18.
Quote:
EZE 18:30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Let's do another poll . Let's see whether people think this is
1. A declaration that God will save all men.
2. An appeal for people not to be needlessly lost, but to repent, which brings salvation.
I think number 2 would win far and away. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Which is why He appeals so constantly for them NOT to perish needlessly, but to simply repent.
The very fact that these texts make it sound POSSIBLE to not repent but to be lost, as well as all the others that do, force you to the conclusion that all repent. But if that is the case, then it is their repentance, not just God's ultimate will, that is central. And that goes against your whole premise.
Quote:
There is nothing in this passage that says that GOD's Wrath is eternal... quite the contrary... Gods Wrath: (Ps 30:5) ... but a moment / (Is 26:20) ...a LITTLE moment...
Actually it says they WILL NOT SEE LIFE. This is contrasted with the righteous who will have life eternal (or as you think for an age). What do you think it means when it says they will not see life? Do you think that somehow means they will? I thought a word couldn't mean life and death?
As to judgement, yes judgement is a good thing...for those who are justified in the judgement, and a bad thing for the others.
Quote:
WillieH: I depart NOT from anything... FAITH is GIVEN by GOD, it is NOT our doing... He DRAWS us, He feeds us the WORD of LIFE in which is found FAITH and SALVATION... I state that these things WILL happen to EVERYONE, not of THEIR doing, but of GOD's WILL...
So your view then is that God forces belief, forces faith, and now He is loving for doing it. Ok, got ya. So then you ignore all the passages in the Bible that express that we must choose, repent, etc.
Quote:
tall said
B. A confession of Jesus' status is not necessarily a confession of trust as a Savior.
The demons believe that God exists and tremble. They recognize His position. Does it save them?
In fact, the demons confessed that they KNEW who Jesus was when He cast them out. That He was the Son of God. Tell me, did that CONFESSION save them? My Bible certainly doesn't say that it did.
I think that again the scriptures don't agree with you.
When asked to explain the text where Jesus was asked about how many will be lost you said:
Quote:
WillieH: I can only state that JESUS CHRIST ..IS the SAVIOR of ALL... as noted in many places in scripture... all the processes cannot be determined by any MAN... Not me, ...NOT YOU... I agree with the Bible when it states AGAPE LOVE... this is LOVE ....WITHOUT CONDITION...
So you answer only by saying that you will continue to state what you derive from other Scriptures, failing to even make any sense of this text for yourself. And we should take notes on this new truth from you? If you can't answer the biblical evidence, why should we accept your new truth?
Quote:
WillieH: what you and most "Theologians" do, is ignore what is plainly there in order to satisfy tradition... These verses were spoken to the JEWS.. for Christ was sent to the LOST SHEEP of ISRAEL... NOT to the Gentiles... the words of Christ were spoken to His own people, not to (as you view it) the whole town...
Well thanks for telling what us theologians do. But I never said anything about His audience. Not that it is important in either case. He is saying that among those who MOST thought they would be saved some wouldn't , while many from the gentiles would. But...wait a moment...I thought ALL would be saved.
I asked YOU to explain what He meant by His words. You did not even try. But now you claim to know all about the text. So I will give you another chance.
Why would Jesus say many will not be able to enter?
who are those who are outside of the kingdom?
Is this not a direct statement, as Spozzi said, that in fact some will not be saved?
Quote:
WillieH: Let me ask you Tal73, were you COERCED? Were you TORTURED? You misunderstand the fire of GOD... you think of the LAKE of FIRE as something APART from CHRIST... You judge and view the bible carnally to the point that you enact your part in the letter (as did the Pharisees) and miss the point that is found in the SPIRITUAL...
And let me ask you, does it matter what I think? No, no more than what you think. That is the point. These arguments from experience make no difference. What God says about His judgement does. I quoted from your understanding of Matthew 25:46
'And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."' (Mt 25:46, NLT)
You said eternal just means an age. Ok, so you are saying Jesus said they would be PUNISHED for an age. Did He not call it punishment? But somehow you turn punishment into something else. Punishment becomes a carnival, and then you have the guts to say you are the one who takes the word as it reads. I have avoided personal comments. But since you call us pharisees, etc. I would say that you distort every text that even mentions punishment, condemnation. Fire, etc. Do you think that explaining away the words of God means you are reading it right? Come on man. Give it up. We will not be accepting new truth from someone who can't even explain why punished means not punished. And then goes on to post articles that say that two words cannot mean the opposite thing.
Does it not trouble you that you have to change the plain meaning of destroyed, lost, punished, condemned, death, etc. ?
Now please explain to me how all of these texts do not portray punishment, but a party. To do so you must convolute plain language. :
Quote:
2TH 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Quote:
MK 12:38 As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 40 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
Quote:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Quote:
LK 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2 It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3 So watch yourselves.
Quote:
LK 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.
So tell me please, how you explain away that God says they will be punished, they will fear Him, they will have worse things that having a millstone tied around their neck?
Is it REALLY a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God? Or is it just a party?
You cover up these plain statements of scripture to make a view of God that is not what He claims at all. That is what I mean when I say your ethical, philosophical arguments mean nothing. Of course God is about love, of course He wants to save. But if you ignore all He says about His judgement, you do so at your own peril.
Your God is not the God of the Bible but a child's picture more like Mr. Rogers than the Living God.
I will end this post with the FULL words of 2 Peter on this subject, that , far from defending your position, point out that you are the very kind of scoffer that denies God's judgement and sends people to destruction.
Quote:
2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
2PE 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
There will be a judgement, there will be fire, and it will be just as real as the water of the flood, and will consume the earth AND ungodly men. Heaven will be the home of righteousness, not the home of every unrepentant sinner.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:09 am Post subject:
Great comments, Tall73.
WillieH, I'd like to offer some more reasons against universalism as argued by Norman Geisler (1999, pp. 749-750, emphasis supplied)[**]:
'Universalism is contrary to the implications of being created in the image of God. God made humankind in his image (Gen. 1:27) which included freedom. For everyone to be saved, those who refused to love God would be forced to love him against their will. Forced "freedom" is not freedom. A corollary to this is that universalism is contrary to God's love. Forced love is not love, but a kind of rape. No true loving being forces himself on another.
'Universalism is contrary to God's perfection and justice. God is absolutely holy. And as such he must separate himself from and punish sin. Hence, as long as there is someone living in sin and rebellion against God, God must punish them. The Bible identifies this place of separation and punishment as hell (see Matthew 5, 10, 25).
'Universalism is based on Scriptures wrenched out of context, and it ignores other clear passages.
'Universalism is based on a kind of Freudian illusion. Sigmund Freud thought any belief based on a mere wish to be an illusion. We do not wish anyone to suffer in hell forever[*], and this strong wish seems to be a primary impulse in the universalist thinking. But it is an illusion to believe that all wishes will be fulfilled.'
WillieH, I think it is time that you either dealt directly with some of these criticisms or acknowledge that universalism is unbiblical. Please answer the following questions:
1) How is universalism consistent with humans being created in God's image?
2) If you believe in universalism, how can you justify God being a cosmic rapist?
3) How is God consistent with his holiness and justice if God forces a wicked person to be saved, against their will?
4) How are your interpretations of the passages of Scripture you quote consistent with the contexts in which they appear?
5) How to you answer the explicit teaching of Scripture that some will be lost because they persist in rejecting God?
6) How is the view of universalism anything other than wishful thinking?
While we wait for WillieH to deal with these questions, in my next post I will briefly comment on the main texts used by universalists to justify their position. Sorry, Tall73, if I reiterate some of your points in doing so! But I'm sure you won't mind :-)
----------------------------
[*] I believe Geisler is wrong in describing the suffering of hell to last forever (I am an annihilationist); but the general point Geisler makes is still valid.
[**] No doubt, WillieH, you will object to me quoting an author other than myself. However, I believe that, as Christians who are genuinely seeking for truth, we should listen to those of our brothers and sisters who are part of our conversation by what they write for us to consider. Hopefully, you will respond to the content of the quote and not criticise the act of quoting itself!
REFERENCE
Geisler, NL 1999, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:53 pm Post subject: You answer me first...
WillieH: Hi Tal...
I took quite a bit of my time to respond and answer you, therefore I require you answer my post first, otherwise I will ignore your post... there are several questions in my post... address them or there is no further conversation...
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: No quotes... Speak for yourself... from YOUR OWN research...
WillieH: Hi Spozz..
I do NOT accept your post, because it is NOT YOU speaking.. do your own research of the scriptures, prove me wrong with your own research and I will at least, honor the investment of your time by reading your post...
I see you cannot speak for yourself... Your faith is in the hands of another man... I can stand about my beliefs without quoting reasons or scriptures from another man...
If you wish to speak against the Salvation of All... you stand before God for it alone, ...you dont get to hold hands with this person you have herein quoted...
Most theologians resort to quoting each other so that they can, as you have here with Tal, pat each other on the back...
JESUS stood against such as you ALONE... and it does not surprise me that you would gather like of your kind to "gang up" on me....
As I said to Tal.. I pity you.. but I also PRAY for you... have you prayed for ME? I doubt it...
In the end UNIVERSALISM is NOT a religion, it is NOT a DENOMINATION it is VERY FEW... much as the number Christ said would hear His words in the last days...
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: You answer me first...
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Hi Tal...
I took quite a bit of my time to respond and answer you, therefore I require you answer my post first, otherwise I will ignore your post... there are several questions in my post... address them or there is no further conversation...
In JESUS ....WillieH...servant...
WilleH, what are you talking about? I went through your whole post point by point. It was 10 pages in my word processor, all of them responding to your last post. It is three posts above this one.How can you say I didn't respond to you?
Do you mean the first in this whole thread? I went through those texts point by point as well. And you dismissed it all with a few sarcastic words as if to say you didn't REALLY want us to look at it, but just accept your view.
I even went through the article that was NOT WRITTEN BY YOU, or which seemed to not be as you were quoting it. But you won't extend the same courtesy to Spozzi. What difference does it make if he wrote it? If it weakens your new truth, shouldn't you look at it or answer its charges? What is this ,the amateurs only forum so that no one can answer you too well?
Specify which of your questions I have not answered and I will do so. some of them I may have dealt with in bulk fashion, so if you want a more specific answer I will be happy to do that.
Perhaps you are referring to these which I covered in summary form. Ok, here goes, I will deal with each one....but when you reply to me be sure to cover both this and the earlier response please.
WillieH wrote:
WillieH: Let me ask you Tal73, were you COERCED? Were you TORTURED? You misunderstand the fire of GOD... you think of the LAKE of FIRE as something APART from CHRIST... You judge and view the bible carnally to the point that you enact your part in the letter (as did the Pharisees) and miss the point that is found in the SPIRITUAL...
coerced-no
tortured-no
Perhaps though that could be because the Bible says :
Quote:
Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Please note that
a. we face the judgement after DEATH. I haven't died. That seems a bit obvious. How could I experience those things that take place at the judgement if I haven't been there yet? We were discussing what happens after people die, when God brings them for judgement. Jesus said they would be PUNISHED for ever...or as you say, for an age.
b. Jesus is coming to bring salvation for THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM. Not those who rejected Him, hated Him, loathed Him, never repented etc.
Quote:
When your baby is dirty, do you not give it a bath? What is your MOTIVE in the giving of the BATH? Is it to TORTURE the baby? Do you DUNK its head under the water? Is the bath intended to be DETRIMENTAL to its HEALTH? And finally, do you "throw the baby OUT with the bath water"?
bath-actually the wife usually does. Sometimes I do.
Motive- usually to clean the baby, yes.
Dunk-no usually just sprinkle a bit
detrimental-no
throw-nope
A great review of our bathing habits for babies, but it doesn't explain one bit why God says he will
a. destroy
b. consume
c. make so they "don't see life"
d. "cut to pieces and assign a place with the wicked"
e. punish with fire
Nor does it show any texts where God says He will give sinners a bath. Oh wait, there is one, though you didn't list it. It is in 2 Peter, and Genesis. Where He gave them a FLOOD. And yes, it WAS quite detrimental. I am sure you will agree.
Perhaps you could ask some questions about that?
Quote:
Or, as a LOVING parent, is your MOTIVE to give the baby the bath lovingly, and carefully so as to NOT HURT the baby... to CLEAN it, and REFRESH it, bringing it back to its ORIGINAL STATE?
If YOU being EVIL can do something so GOOD and HEALTHY and LOVING to YOUR little one...
I ask you, ...how is it that you envision and teach others that GOD is an INFINITELY MORE CRUEL and HATEFUL Parent (than yourself), concerning HIS babies (of which ALL ARE - each of us, brought upon this Earth via HIS DECISION)?
Because you have set up a false comparison. God DOES take great care to cleanse, sanctify etc. His babies. But those who cling to sin, kill others, destroy, hate Him etc. He eventually CLEANSES with fire....He wipes them out. No amount of your redefining what the Bible clearly says in a number of places can get rid of that fact. It is not hate that does it. He gives them up after making every appeal. But in the end sin is destroying His children. And if they cling to it, they share its fate. And this is why I say this is more about your own hang-ups than what God said. You stubbornly hide your head in the sand from the plainest statements about divine judgement in order to justify your own view.
Quote:
You are so absorbed in your religion that you cannot see the scriptures... MORAL issues and treatments ARE THE POINT... I give you examples that are scripturally based (i.e. who would give to their child a stone when they requested bread - we being evil still know how to give GOOD things to our children, how MUCH MORE will GOD give the HOLY SPIRIT to those that ask... in the end ALL WILL ASK for EVERY TONGUE shall CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD - the ability to do this is only VIA ....THE HOLY SPIRIT...)
Yes, but I already mentioned when the devils said the same thing. Are they saved by that? It is not a saving confession, any more than the demons did not receive salvation for saying they knew that Jesus was the Son of God. They were afraid of Jesus. Why? Because they knew of their approaching judgement.
No. Moreover, the judgement happens after death. By that time we see no reference to saving repentance. You are using one text that is meant to show a different point (Jesus' supremacy over others) to pound away tons of clear verses. You will irrationally hinge your whole faith on that verse? You can do so , but I will not.
Quote:
Your view of JUDGEMENT is that it is either LASTING - (eternal in consequence or result) or CONTINUOUS (on-going) - never arriving at a conclusion... your (incorrect) view of JUDGEMENT is that, it in essence, it is a BAD THING, ...whereas the Word of God states JUDGEMENT as a GOOD THING amongst GOOD THINGS... it states His WRATH is but a LITTLE MOMENT.. but its END RESULT, produces RIGHTEOUSNESS...
Explain these verses to me then. Some of them address the day of the Lord at the end of time, and some to the day of the Lord in the time of Israel when He judged many nations. Either way, judgement was NOT a good thing to the wicked.
Quote:
ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. ISA 13:7 Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man's heart will melt. ISA 13:8 Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame. ISA 13:9 See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
Yeah, I see your point. That sure SOUNDS good. Especially that whole destroy sinners thing. Wow, should be a veritable party.
Or this one....
Quote:
JOEL 2:11 The LORD thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty are those who obey his command.
The day of the LORD is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?
JOEL 2:12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
JOEL 2:13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.
JOEL 2:14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing--
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God.
now tell me, is that a happy thing? And why does God appeal to them if He just plans to overrule their will and force them to be saved anyway?
Here is a text that seems nearly custom made just for you....
Quote:
AM 5:18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the LORD!
Why do you long for the day of the LORD?
That day will be darkness, not light.
AM 5:19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
AM 5:20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light–
Why would He say this? Because he was talking to people who were rejecting Him. Judgement is good for His people. It is destruction for the wicked.
Quote:
1TH 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Now can you tell me that ANYONE that you stopped on the street and read those texts to would think that the judgement spoken of would be a good thing? Hm....I doubt it.
Quote:
Replacing your present THEOLOGICAL and RELIGIOUSLY COMPLICATED view which portrays our KIND and LOVING GOD as a VENGENT, UNFORGIVING, and UNMERCIFUL being, which is NOT ALMIGHTY, NOT in CONTROL, NOT Savior of ALL whom He created, ....one that is UNABLE to overcome the CLAY and its assumed "free will", and finally one that is found TORTURING His Creation instead of LOVING it...
I pity You, and your disappointing and misled view of Father
yes, I see how your view would be less complicated–by any particular scriptural evidence. Why explain those texts that you don't like when you can pretend they don't exist?
A. I was quoting your view on the torturing thing. They are punished "for an age" according to your view. So you endorse torture too apparently. Or you also try to explain away the word punished. Where does it end? The sheer number of words and passages you must explain away is staggering.
B. I never said God was not in control. He is quite in control. And in the end He takes control in a massive and decisive way.
C. He is able to overcome free will. But He says He won't. Apparently the only thing God is unable to do is to FIND ANY WORDS IN THE WORLD THAT WILL EXPLAIN WHAT HE ACTUALLY WANTS TO DO THAT YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN AWAY. And that is on your conscience my friend.
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:33 am Post subject: Re: You answer me first...
WillieH: Hi Tal...
First, thank you for doing as I requested... it was the honorable thing, and I applaude your sense of conversation...
I will therefore respond to this latest post....
Quote:
I even went through the article that was NOT WRITTEN BY YOU, or which seemed to not be as you were quoting it. But you won't extend the same courtesy to Spozzi.
Might I say that my conversation with Spozz is my conversation with Spozz... You guys seem to like to tag-team me, and I, whether you receive my words or not, am free to decide if and how I shall respond and won't be dictated to by you OR him, as to how I respond to YOU or HIM...
Quote:
What difference does it make if he wrote it? If it weakens your new truth, shouldn't you look at it or answer its charges? What is this ,the amateurs only forum so that no one can answer you too well?
Let me also state that, in the past, before studying intensely on my own, the unforgiving and illogical beliefs of the SDA church... I once believed in the same manner as you and Spozz...
I do NOT defend my beliefs with another persons writings.. Nor do I call in question YOUR BELIEFS with another persons opinion of them...
I respond with the BIBLICAL basis upon which I stand...
Concerning the words (which were but a small part of my response to Spozz, was a study of the word APOLLUMI which is very relevant to understanding the passages wherein the words, "LOST" or "DESTRUCTION" in the NT is mentioned... your versions whether they be the KJV or other newer English bible translations, continually MISTRANSLATE this word over and over... much as the word HELL is a MAN-MADE term, not GOD-MADE...
If these Translation OBSTACLES are removed it very much, changes the meaning of many of the texts commonly used in proving HELL, DESTRUCTION, and the LOST... I therefore felt it good to insert the study...
I don't even know why I am bothering to explain this to you since this WAS NOT done in my conversation with YOU....
WillieH: Let me ask you Tal73, were you COERCED? Were you TORTURED? You misunderstand the fire of GOD... you think of the LAKE of FIRE as something APART from CHRIST... You judge and view the bible carnally to the point that you enact your part in the letter (as did the Pharisees) and miss the point that is found in the SPIRITUAL...[/quote]
Quote:
coerced-no
tortured-no
WillieH: By your own admission, you were NOT COERCED, nor TORTURED in becoming a believer... GOD WILL NOT "COERCE" or "TORTURE" anyone that follow... each will be DRAWN (as you/I were), and each will bow the KNEE (as you/I did) and will confess with the tongue (as you/I did) when they are unveiled and see him in their hearts (as you/I did)...
Your picture of the Fire of God is to TORMENT or DESTROY... it is to CORRECT... it is to PURIFY... it is to CLEANSE... and finally to RECONCILE... and EVERY MAN shall be tried by this FIRE... (1 Cor 3:12-15) (Mark 9:49)
Not TORTURED, not COERCED.... DRAWN...
Quote:
Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
WillieH: This, Tal... is the FIRE which you wish to avoid... It shall TRY YOU (and I) and believe me, there are things that will need cleansing... In part, BOTH of our input within this conversation for one...
Quote:
a. we face the judgement after DEATH. I haven't died.
WillieH: You haven't? You show the elementary level that your spiritual understanding is presently in, with such words... I think you need to re-consider what you have just stated...
If we have not DIED, then how may we lay claim of the name of Christ? Let me quote a verse to you....
(Rom 6:4) "knowyeNOT that so many of us as were BAPTIZED into JESUS CHRIST were BAPTIZED into His DEATH? Therefore we are baptized with Him by baptism into DEATH; that like as CHRIST was RAISED from the DEAD by the glory of the Father even so we also should walk in newness of life."
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That seems a bit obvious.
WillieH: Unfortunately, ...yes it does...
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How could I experience those things that take place at the judgement if I haven't been there yet? We were discussing what happens after people die, when God brings them for judgement. Jesus said they would be PUNISHED for ever...or as you say, for an age.
WillieH: I must ask for God's patience with you... You must have your punishment mustn't you? God shall punish, but not in the way or degree you envision for your vision of the JUDGEMENT of LOVE is TORTURE... my vision of the JUDGEMENT of LOVE is CORRECTION... which is how it is done... ask anyone... ask child protective services... as the school board... ask any social behaviorist... ask the LORD... ask anyone... TORTURE is NOT how LOVE administers JUDGEMENT or PUNISHMENT... (are you a new Christian? ...seems so to me..)
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b. Jesus is coming to bring salvation for THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM. Not those who rejected Him, hated Him, loathed Him, never repented etc.
WillieH: And you include yourself in this bunch? How convenient for you... that YOU of all people should squeeze by even though you were born in the same SINFUL FLESH as they... even though GOD has to do the saving, guess you just got LUCKY and THEY didn't eh? If you analyze how you think, you will find much SELFISHNESS at the foundation... Remember EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD (what?) LORD (once more for the slower UN-learners) LORD... to the GLORY of GOD the FATHER (YAHWEH)... he GLORIES from TOTAL VICTORY, not partial... not according to Mans acceptance or "REJECTION", but according to His IRRESISTABLE WILL! (Rom 11:32) "for GOD hath concluded THEM ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have MERCY upon ALL (how many?) ALL (once more for slower UN-learners please) ....ALL!
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WillieH: When your baby is dirty, do you not give it a bath? What is your MOTIVE in the giving of the BATH? Is it to TORTURE the baby? Do you DUNK its head under the water? Is the bath intended to be DETRIMENTAL to its HEALTH? And finally, do you "throw the baby OUT with the bath water"?
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bath-actually the wife usually does. Sometimes I do.
Motive- usually to clean the baby, yes.
Dunk-no usually just sprinkle a bit
detrimental-no
throw-nope
WillieH: and you label me as sarcastic... Tal... you have much to UNLEARN..
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A great review of our bathing habits for babies, but it doesn't explain one bit why God says he will
a. destroy
b. consume
c. make so they "don't see life"
d. "cut to pieces and assign a place with the wicked"
e. punish with fire
WillieH: ah... destroy what? Man? no... the WORKS of MAN
(2 Pet 3:10) "..but the day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS (what was that?) WORKS (once again for slow UN-learners) WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.."
(Cor 3:13) "EVERY Man's WORK (what?) ...WORK (once more for slow UN-learners) ...WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be REVEALED bv FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY ...EVERY Man's WORK (what?) ...WORK (once more for slow UN-learners) ...WORK of what SORT it is.."
(Rev 22:12) "and behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me to GIVE EVERY Man according as his WORK (what?) ...WORK (could you repeat that for slow UN-learners please?) ...WORK shall be..."
WillieH: and what shall be CONSUMED... MAN? (no... OBVIOUSLY the WORKS that are not aligned with righteousness and holiness)
You need to get into the habit of quoting chapters and verses that you are referring to....
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Nor does it show any texts where God says He will give sinners a bath. Oh wait, there is one, though you didn't list it.
WillieH: You keep quoting in such a manner.. and I'll have to give you the name SARK (for sarcastic) instead of Tal...
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It is in 2 Peter, and Genesis. Where He gave them a FLOOD. And yes, it WAS quite detrimental. I am sure you will agree.
WillieH: Yes... Tal.. I agree... but this was just a TEMPORARY and FLESHLY judgement... NOT... spiritual and ETERNAL...
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Perhaps you could ask some questions about that?
WillieH: I don't have any questions about it... I am settled in the matters between the flesh and the spirit... are you?
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WillieH: Or, as a LOVING parent, is your MOTIVE to give the baby the bath lovingly, and carefully so as to NOT HURT the baby... to CLEAN it, and REFRESH it, bringing it back to its ORIGINAL STATE?
If YOU being EVIL can do something so GOOD and HEALTHY and LOVING to YOUR little one...
I ask you, ...how is it that you envision and teach others that GOD is an INFINITELY MORE CRUEL and HATEFUL Parent (than yourself), concerning HIS babies (of which ALL ARE - each of us, brought upon this Earth via HIS DECISION)?
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Because you have set up a false comparison. God DOES take great care to cleanse, sanctify etc. His babies. But those who cling to sin, kill others, destroy, hate Him etc. He eventually CLEANSES with fire....He wipes them out. No amount of your redefining what the Bible clearly says in a number of places can get rid of that fact. It is not hate that does it. He gives them up after making every appeal. But in the end sin is destroying His children. And if they cling to it, they share its fate. And this is why I say this is more about your own hang-ups than what God said. You stubbornly hide your head in the sand from the plainest statements about divine judgement in order to justify your own view.
WillieH: Again, you skate out the door, not quoting that which you refer to... because in the end you know that my "illustration" is clearly how LOVE deals with its CHILDREN...
Your viewpoint is PowerLESS... It preaches a GOD that is HELPLESS to pull His children from the clutches of Sin... In contrast... I believe in GOD ALMIGHTY... He is able to transcend ALL POSSIBLE BOUNDARIES, as displayed in the following:
(Luke 18:27) "...and he said, The things that are IMPOSSIBLE with MEN, are POSSIBLE with GOD" hmmmmmmmmm
(Rom 8:38-39) "For I am persuaded that neither DEATH, nor LIFE, nor ANGELS, nor PRINCIPALITIES, nor POWERS, nor THINGS present, nor THINGS TO COME...
"nor height, nor depth, nor ANY OTHER CREATURE shall be able to SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD, which is IN CHRIST JESUS our Lord"
WillieH: Hmmmmm....
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WillieH: You are so absorbed in your religion that you cannot see the scriptures... MORAL issues and treatments ARE THE POINT... I give you examples that are scripturally based (i.e. who would give to their child a stone when they requested bread - we being evil still know how to give GOOD things to our children, how MUCH MORE will GOD give the HOLY SPIRIT to those that ask... in the end ALL WILL ASK for EVERY TONGUE shall CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD - the ability to do this is only VIA ....THE HOLY SPIRIT...)
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Yes, but I already mentioned when the devils said the same thing. Are they saved by that? It is not a saving confession, any more than the demons did not receive salvation for saying they knew that Jesus was the Son of God. They were afraid of Jesus. Why? Because they knew of their approaching judgement.
WillieH: Once again, you fail to quote scripture, so let me do so instead..
(Col 1:20) "and having MADE PEACE through the BLOOD of HIS CROSS, by Him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS (how many?) ALL THINGS (once more for slow UN-learners) ...ALL THINGS unto HIMSELF, by Him I say whether they be THINGS on Earth, or THINGS in HEAVEN." (now I ask you oh theologian... what pray tell are the things in HEAVEN that are in need of RECONCILIATION?)
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No. Moreover, the judgement happens after death. By that time we see no reference to saving repentance. You are using one text that is meant to show a different point (Jesus' supremacy over others) to pound away tons of clear verses. You will irrationally hinge your whole faith on that verse? You can do so , but I will not.
WillieH: not sure what you are referring to... and I wont bother until you locate it...
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WillieH: Your view of JUDGEMENT is that it is either LASTING - (eternal in consequence or result) or CONTINUOUS (on-going) - never arriving at a conclusion... your (incorrect) view of JUDGEMENT is that, it in essence, it is a BAD THING, ...whereas the Word of God states JUDGEMENT as a GOOD THING amongst GOOD THINGS... it states His WRATH is but a LITTLE MOMENT.. but its END RESULT, produces RIGHTEOUSNESS...
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Explain these verses to me then. Some of them address the day of the Lord at the end of time
and some to the day of the Lord in the time of Israel when He judged many nations. Either way, judgement was NOT a good thing to the wicked.
ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. ISA 13:7 Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man's heart will melt. ISA 13:8 Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame. ISA 13:9 See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.
WillieH: Well GLORY BE! Scripture quotes.... why don't YOU do the enlightening dude?
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Yeah, I see your point. That sure SOUNDS good. Especially that whole destroy sinners thing. Wow, should be a veritable party.
WillieH: That does it... you are now SARK...
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Or this one....
JOEL 2:11 The LORD thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty are those who obey his command.
The day of the LORD is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?
JOEL 2:12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
JOEL 2:13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.
JOEL 2:14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing--
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God.
now tell me, is that a happy thing? And why does God appeal to them if He just plans to overrule their will and force them to be saved anyway?
Here is a text that seems nearly custom made just for you....
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AM 5:18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the LORD!
Why do you long for the day of the LORD?
That day will be darkness, not light.
AM 5:19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
AM 5:20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light
WillieH: Again... you tell me... then I'll tell you... I would love to hear your explanations.. heh-heh
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Why would He say this? Because he was talking to people who were rejecting Him. Judgement is good for His people. It is destruction for the wicked.
WillieH: Okay - okay! It is the WICKEDNESS ...IN people that He judges, not the people... He has decided ALL that takes place in this realm... that is why He gets the title... ALMIGHTY! and ....GOD! The good news is that He also makes a WAY OUT for ALL... For ALL are IN BONDAGE...
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1TH 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Now can you tell me that ANYONE that you stopped on the street and read those texts to would think that the judgement spoken of would be a good thing? Hm....I doubt it. [/quote]
WillieH: This is where YOU are WRONG ...SARK... I can stop ANYONE on the STREET and tell them that GOD ..UNCONDITIONALLY (agape) LOVE's them... can you? NO... because your message is: Hey believe in JESUS or go to the big barbeque! My message is that GOD LOVES ALL, will SAVE ALL.. and will pass JUDGEMENT and PUNISHMENT that is to CORRECT that which is wrong in ones life... that PUNISHMENT in the end, is CORRECTIVE (albeit unpleasant- who likes SPANKINGS)...
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WillieH: Replacing your present THEOLOGICAL and RELIGIOUSLY COMPLICATED view which portrays our KIND and LOVING GOD as a VENGENT, UNFORGIVING, and UNMERCIFUL being, which is NOT ALMIGHTY, NOT in CONTROL, NOT Savior of ALL whom He created, ....one that is UNABLE to overcome the CLAY and its assumed "free will", and finally one that is found TORTURING His Creation instead of LOVING it...
I pity You, and your disappointing and misled view of Father
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yes, I see how your view would be less complicated–by any particular scriptural evidence. Why explain those texts that you don't like when you can pretend they don't exist?
WillieH: You should talk Sark... you RARELY place scripture behind your words.. and when you do... it caries UGLINESS, TORTURE, UNFORGIVENESS, and the like... that is YOUR MESSAGE... it is "ANOTHER GOSPEL" that Paul spoke of ....
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A. I was quoting your view on the torturing thing. They are punished "for an age" according to your view. So you endorse torture too apparently.
WillieH: I do NOT endorse TORTURE.. I endorse CORRECTIVE Punishments in the flavor of LOVE... not as YOU in the flavor of DEATH or TORMENT...
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Or you also try to explain away the word punished. Where does it end? The sheer number of words and passages you must explain away is staggering.
In the end the number of texts YOU have to explain away concerning salvation of all is well in excess of 100... The word punished is something that might benefit you to look up... it is CORRECTIVE punishment as I PREACH ...you on the other hand preach punishment that is TORMENTING
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B. I never said God was not in control. He is quite in control. And in the end He takes control in a massive and decisive way.
WillieH: You fool and decieve yourself... In your view... poor GOD can only save the ones that CHOOSE to come to Him.. He is UNABLE to OVERCOME Man's will, and therefore, in your view, loses out on MOST of His Creation.... what a lot of BUNK!
He spoke well of your kind...
(Mark 13:6) "for MANY (most of Christianity) shall come in MY NAME saying I am Christ and shall DECIEVE MANY"... there are MANY that preach the false version of the GOSPEL that you spread... and MANY more are DECIEVED by your words..
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C. He is able to overcome free will. But He says He won't. Apparently the only thing God is unable to do is to FIND ANY WORDS IN THE WORLD THAT WILL EXPLAIN WHAT HE ACTUALLY WANTS TO DO THAT YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN AWAY. And that is on your conscience my friend.
WillieH: Ah, you call me friend... Is that how you really feel? I think not.. GOD is able to OVERCOME anything... and there IS ...NO ..."free will", that is why the whole GOSPEL is about doing HIS WILL.. for the only "WILL" that truly exists or ever WILL exist is HIS... Until you shed your prideful "will" that you percieve as "free"... you will remain in the BONDAGE of it...
There, ...I have answered your whole post (long that it was) and in the end you have proved NOTHING to me... I am pretty sure my message has fallen on deaf ears... for that is what you will have until you seek and preach the TRUE GOSPEL, which is the SALVATION of ALL...
(Luke 19:10) "For the SON of Man is COME to SEEK and to SAVE (what?) SAVE (could you repeat that again for the slow UN-learners?) ...SAVE that which is LOST (Apollumi)"
Notice He stated that IS His mission... are you doing it?
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Your use of such words (in bold in your quote) just show that in your attempt to disguise your confusion, you endeavor to prop yourself up as one enlightened...
(Most misunderstanding of the Gospel message occurs because Jesus in fact was addressing the Jews, not Humanity as a whole in His ministry on the earth.)
