I was a member of Wayne Bent's group for several years, and I would like to comment on what I saw. When I was with them, they were basically Adventist in doctrine for the most part. I will agree with Solomon and Moigboi, that the sincerity and zeal were wonderful... there was no luke-warmness going on there. The fellowship was close like family... how a church should be. People were trying to live by a "Thus saith the Lord", and I learned alot with them, both bible and Ellen White. There came a point that they ran ahead of the Lord and began to stray from scripture and warnings from Spirit of Prophesy. In their zeal to be with God and to translate, they began to seek to make it happen, not waiting for God's timing. They began to set dates for Christ's second coming, and when he didnt come in the clouds of glory, instead of admitting their error, they did the "infalliable church" thing and covered their mistake by saying... "Christ did return, he returned in our hearts. If you dont know that, it is because he didnt return in yours." So pressure was created in the group to be "in step" and I saw people so desperate for that experience that some began to fake it. They began to look to the ministers to define their relationship with God, instead of being secure in Jesus. Alot of people left the group, and slowly the ones that were left looked more and more to Wayne. I was out of the group then. I asked one member who was sharing with me their message about Wayne being Messiah, "Wasnt Jesus and the bible enough to save us? Why do you need Wayne to be Messiah?" Her reply was that they were so lost and so bad that they needed Messiah to come again. I know Jesus gave all that was needed on the cross.
In years past, they were much more biblical. Also, being an offshoot, they took alot of responsibility upon themselves by not having long estabolished church to lean upon for their salvation. This tends to give vigor to the spirituality as we realize that it the relationship between us and God that we are saved by. As more and more trust was given to the ministers to define the individual's relationship, people's responsibility for their salvation was shifted to them, until the inevitable outcome that the leader was to BE the salvation. People shift their responsiblity all the time these days... It started in the garden "it was the woman you gave me..." Adam insinuated God was responsible for his sin.
People shift their responsibility for their health to their doctor. That does two things... one thing is that they get dont take care of themselves like they should because the doc can fix it. When we do that, we not only give up our God given responsiblity, but we empower them to be more than they were intended to be. The same things happen with ministers. When we trust in them to be our link between God and us, we tend to do less study for ourselves, and give the minister more responsibility and power than he was meant to have. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Mr. Shubert, to set the record straight, while the group was largely conservative Adventists in an offshoot, there was a lot said that was going on there that definitely was not. I was there. Just be careful not to believe everything that is written about them, as a lot of it is sensational. Let the facts speak for themselves, just as you let the bible explain itself. They have gone far enough off course without blowing things out of proportion. _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall stread down our enemies."
I once knew a woman years ago who was a member of that group. She had her own, unique way of looking at things even though her perspective was independent of those with whom she fellowshipped. While some might view her as being 'self-deceived', she was certain that she was following the Voice of God.
This young woman was married to a man whom she was known to "quietly" complain and fret about to others. It was arguably the one thing that she was known for above all others. As you will see, in doing this she had created her own future.
At one time, this woman went around saying that God told her that she was pregnant with twin girls. She would go about relating this story to those she met. She even had names picked out for the promised ones. So, time went on, she continuing to tell everyone she could about what God had told her. Well, as it turned out, she didn't have what she expected. No, she didn't have twins, nor did she have a girl. She wasn't even pregnant. Yes, she made it all up and attributed it to God. Whether she learned anything from that experience is not clear.
It wasn't long before she and her husband left that group. Her testimony was that God had told her to follow her husband (the one she was known to complain about) and they soon joined a local SDA congregation and became good Adventists. No, she was still not satisfied with her husband and that went on for about ten more years until one day an "old friend" of this couple called asking if he could visit them. This "friend" they had met years prior and shared a common comraderie of having had the good sense to leave that "errant cult." So, the friend came to visit more than once for some days at a time, and they had a good time relating the past. As the husband would be gone working during the days, this Adventist woman and the visiting"friend" began to get "friendlier". In short order the woman left her husband of over fifteen years and ran off with the "friend". Several friends and acquaintances offered sound council for her to reconsider her ways and change her course, but she would have none of it.
The point in relating this poor woman's plight is that she didn't need an "errant cult" to distort her view of reality, for she had done quite a spectacular job on her own. Living by her flesh and disregarding the Word of God she made off with one equally proud and self-deceived as herself.
Of these the Bible accurately says:
"For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate silly and weak-natured and spiritually-dwarfed women, loaded down with the burden of their sins and easily swayed and led away by various evil desires and seductive impulses."
2nd Timothy 3.6, Amplified
Well, despite the attempt at character assassignation, everything I wrote in the previous post is still true.
God knows the real story and he is my judge. _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall stread down our enemies."
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: And now for the rest of the story...
Im not going to let you get away with calling me a liar. I didnt just "make it all up" like you said. I was pregnant.
I had a miscarriage, and during the very time I was miscarrying, one of the ministers of the LOR gave a sermon about miscarriage (including the gory details of a miscarriage) equating it to being hopelessly lost. I held on to the hope that maybe I hadnt lost the baby for a while, but I just wasnt getting bigger, so I got a pregnancy test. It is hard enough losing a baby without the idea that you are damned for it as well. It was the midwife with the group that told me she felt twins, and I had a lot of twins in my family, so that made sense. Another church member dreamed that I had girls, and because it was the popular belief of the group that everyone was hearing the Voice of God, I believed it. Funny how you would use that against me now.
This cold-heartedness and subtle deception are trademarks of the leadership of this group. My first post was more in their defense because I believe they got some things right. But it was this lack of sensitivity and double talk that I am glad to be away from.
As far as my quiet complaining about my husband goes, I wish I had complained louder and gotten help out of that abusive relationship sooner.
I was faithfully married to my husband for 17 years, and I dont believe God wanted my children and I to remain in an abusive environment, thankyou.
Wasnt this the same group that disolved all marriages and made statements that "If you even argue with your wife, you are not married?"
I believe the reason you attacked me like this was because I hit the nail on the head with my first post. The truth stings, doesnt it? It is sad because when I was with this group, I viewed them as family. I had no idea that they really felt this way about me. Too bad. If I was decieved, it was in believing that this group was full of love. Yes, there were some good people I remember, but it seems that the group has waxed colder and colder.
Bottom line, don't put your trust in men, but in God. And by the way, Wayne is not God. _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall stread down our enemies."
If you go back and read my earlier post you will notice that I intentionally did not reveal the woman's identity publicly, but said enough so that she could recognise herself in it, and perhaps receive a little reality check and be humbled by it privately. Two of the key elements of character assassination are that the target is publicly identified, and that it is done for the purpose of swaying public opinion. I did neither of these, for I had no desire that you be publicly exposed. I did not call anyone a liar.
Regarding your earlier post where you said:
PacificAngel wrote:
...There came a point that they ran ahead of the Lord and began to stray from scripture and warnings from Spirit of Prophesy. In their zeal to be with God and to translate, they began to seek to make it happen, not waiting for God's timing. They began to set dates for Christ's second coming, and when he didnt come in the clouds of glory, instead of admitting their error, they did the "infalliable church" thing and covered their mistake by saying... "Christ did return, he returned in our hearts. If you dont know that, it is because he didnt return in yours."...
You use the non-specific "they" alot in your relating what you say you have seen, but I have never seen the things you speak of in regard to the church itself. I have seen some individuals do some pretty strange things, such as I mentioned in my previous post. Do you see what I'm saying? There is a specific difference between what individuals do and the direction that Father leads the Body. You have made some blanket statements that have never applied to the church, but may have applied to some individuals. Applying your claims to the church as a whole, as you have, fast approaches the full definition of "character assassination". Can you see how applying to the whole those things that an individual or individuals did would not be honest?
You mentioned a talk that was given about spiritual miscarriage. I see that we live in a world full of individuals who have spiritually miscarried or aborted the Child that Father would have them carry and that it is a legitimate principle to draw spiritual truths from the lessons of nature. But to say that this individual was indicating that if anyone physically miscarries they are lost is truly absurd. Miscarrying is Nature's means of quality control and merely indicates that something unhealthy for mother or child is present. Did you go to that individual and ask if they were saying that someone who physically miscarries is lost? If you did not seek that clarification, are you willing to take responsibility for this construction of yours that you publicly attributed to the church?
I have seen over the years how Father has faithfully removed those who could be offended from His flock by setting up circumstances tailor made just for them. If a soul can possibly be offended away from God and Heaven, Father will so arrange circumstances to place the offensive person or event unavoidably in his face. For a time Father uses the real or imagined character defects of those associated with His Body as a tool to either refine the character of those who will to be His, or to offend those who won't stand the heat of Heaven's refining process. Jesus spoke of this principle when He said "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." "Inasmuch as you have done it unto on of the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me." If you are offended with the least of His children, you are offended with Him.
Father is very much on purpose about sifting out those who have divided hearts. So often He has placed a Stone of Stumbling and a Rock of Offence before the professed followers of God to reveal their own heart to themselves. _________________ "Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." James 3.12
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: Mirror Mirror
Mirror wrote:
Quote:
Two of the key elements of character assassination are that the target is publicly identified, and that it is done for the purpose of swaying public opinion.
The most important element of character assassination in timing. If you time it perfectly then you do not have to identified the "target". I remember once being put on the hot seat by Wayne in a church meeting because my now ex-wife was quieting complaining about something I was doing. I don't remember the details of what I was doing at the time but I do remember this one thing. Wayne and I were discussing this problem that I had and in response to one of his questions I said, "I would like to have a homestead of my own." At that moment Wayne looks around at everyone and says, "Well, some people just love the world." So thinking the only thing one would normally think because of the "timing" of this statement, I ask him, "Wayne, are saying that I love the world?" He says, "I didn't say that! If you heard that, then it was the Lord."
This is but one of many times I heard Wayne and others word their statements in ways that would naturally be taken as an "insinuation" about the people they were speaking to or about; and asked if that was what they were doing they would respond with the "I did not say that" response. Technically they did not actually say it, but that is the nature of an insinuation. It doesn't have to be actually said, only implied. I remember just after joining the Lord our Righteousness church I heard Wayne say something in this manner at one of our meetings so I went to him privately and said to him that he needs to be careful how he words things because people could take it wrong. He did not respond to my statement but at the next meeting gave a talk about how some people like to go around telling God that He is doing it wrong. No, Wayne did not say that I was the one going around telling God that He was doing it wrong, but timing of this topic implied it. I wish I had taken that talk as a clue as to where Wayne was heading and ran for my life. Anyway next subject.......
Now that Mirror has made it clear (for all of us out here that don't have the intelligence to put two and two together) that it was Pacific Angel that Mirror was writing about, this statement - "I did not call anyone a liar" - becomes a lie. Because Mirror has written:
Quote:
She wasn't even pregnant. Yes, she made it all up and attributed it to God. Whether she learned anything from that experience is not clear.
One thing made clear here is that you did not have all the facts. She was pregnant and the reason "she didn't have what she expected. No, she didn't have twins, nor did she have a girl" was that she had a miscarriage. Hopefully this will be "a little reality check" for you Mirror. Also Mirror, whether or not the minister giving the sermon about miscarriages was speaking spiritually or literally is beside the point. It was a cruel, insensitive thing to talk about especially when he knew Pacific Angel was having a miscarriage at that very time. Especially the graphic description of a miscarriage that he used. I might add here I know this will not touch your heart because you and others there believe that offending someone is an act of God, at least when the Travesser people do it. It is because you have taken the verse in Psalms "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." to a fanatical level, even though there are many other verses telling us to be careful not to do things that offend or stumble our weaker brethren. In fact it says,
Quote:
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I was told while I was out there in NM that if I was stumbled by anything they did it just meant I was not a brother. People who use scriptures to be able to say such things are people seeking to cloak their cold, insensitive heart. They find it next to impossible to apologize for any of their hurtful action. "They" meaning "if the shoe fits wear it!"
As far as the post Pacific Angel made on Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:16 p.m., she really did hit the nail on the head. I have never heard it put so perfectly before. _________________ Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
Last edited by Solomon on Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
I do not dispute that at some point in time you had a miscarriage. From your description here of your miscarriage it certainly sounds like you are confusing two separate and unrelated events. In your post above, you refer to one "baby", I'm referring to what you had said then, which was "twins". The twins you were going to name Angela and Nadine, if you remember. I am referring to the false pregnancy you experienced where you went around saying that God told you that you were pregnant with twin girls, and then when you discovered that you were in fact not pregnant, you shared a tearful testimony in the local church saying that you discovered you were not pregnant when you had your cycle, that you had wanted to believe you were pregnant so much that you were willing to take anything as evidence that you were pregnant, and that you figured what you mistook for twins moving were gas bubbles. Yes, you said "gas bubbles." You DID NOT say anything about a miscarriage when you gave that testimony. More than just I recall this. So, you say I called you a liar when I was just repeating what you said.
I would have preferred sending the above statement as a private message had you not responded publicly in the manner you did. Coorespondingly I saw it needed to be answered publicly.
The point remains the same as in my first post:
Mirror wrote:
The point in relating this poor woman's plight is that she didn't need an "errant cult" to distort her view of reality, for she had done quite a spectacular job on her own. Living by her flesh and disregarding the Word of God she made off with one...
The silence from both of you regarding the above original point speaks volumes, as does your silence regarding my second post. You have not yet addressed the point. I'm not interested in taking side trips.
You both erroneously accuse others of doing the very things that you have done and are doing yourself. And yet, when one comes to show you your error, you get on the defensive and react as though you were being attacked, the whole time ignoring the message that was brought. And to this you might say, "But you DID attack..."
Jacob thought he was being attacked when the Angel visited him one night. Why did he feel attacked?
To the insensitive, God shows Himself insensitive. In other words, it's not that God is insensitive at all, but that the insensitive can only interpret things through their own personal context of insensitivity. Everything is colored by the glasses one looks through.
I truly don't see any profit in continuing this exchange if you continue to view me as an adversary. _________________ "Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." James 3.12
Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject: let's clarify...
Well Mirror, I will repeat what I had posted earlier, as I thought it crystal clear about what had happened.
Quote:
I had a miscarriage, and during the very time I was miscarrying, one of the ministers of the LOR gave a sermon about miscarriage (including the gory details of a miscarriage) equating it to being hopelessly lost. I held on to the hope that maybe I hadnt lost the baby for a while, but I just wasnt getting bigger, so I got a pregnancy test. It is hard enough losing a baby without the idea that you are damned for it as well. It was the midwife with the group that told me she felt twins, and I had a lot of twins in my family, so that made sense. Another church member dreamed that I had girls, and because it was the popular belief of the group that everyone was hearing the Voice of God, I believed it. Funny how you would use that against me now.
Im sorry you are confused by it. There were not two separate events, but one and the same as the post explained. There is no contradiction, and really no point to go on about it, unless you are trying to rewrite history and look for ways to embarrass me. Gas bubbles? Oh please.
Yes I agree, let us not get off subject. I had posted my observations of the LOR while I was with them, and since then you seem to think if you can cause people to question my character, it would make my testimony go away. I believe that is the point to all of this, and I have only responded because I believe it gives people a good idea just how you operate, twisting their words ever so subtly and playing mind games with them.
As far as my silence to your statement... "Living by her flesh and disregarding the Word of God she made off with one equally proud and self-deceived as herself. "
I know you would like to judge and condemn me from what you think happened, but thankfully, you are not God. God is my judge, he knows what happened, and quite frankly it is none of your business. It does not negate my first testimony. You seem to think that if you can point out some sin or error in me, that it would show I am not mentally sound enough to recall the past or make observations. I am not the one claiming to be infallible here.
You wrote:
Quote:
To the insensitive, God shows Himself insensitive. In other words, it's not that God is insensitive at all, but that the insensitive can only interpret things through their own personal context of insensitivity. Everything is colored by the glasses one looks through.
I never said God was insensitive, I said that insensitivity was in the minister. But, oh, I forgot... you believe that you are God. It must be hard to be infallible.
You also wrote:
Quote:
I truly don't see any profit in continuing this exchange if you continue to view me as an adversary.
Well, Im not brainwashed, and I can recognize character assassination when I see it. I don't care for having to defend myself, but I felt that the testimony I gave was worth standing up for. I would rather relate to you as a brother, but you have a God-complex. Im sorry that being a brother in Christ wasn't enough for you.
Mirror, if you are not Wayne Bent, then you are an exceptionally well made clone of him. _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall stread down our enemies."
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