In Proverbs 8 and 9, I’m not talking about the gender of individual words. I’m talking about Wisdom being personified into a woman repeatedly referred to as ‘she’ and ‘her.’
That doesn't matter. The words "she" and "her" are supplied words not found in the original. Evidently the translators inserted those words, "she" and "her" because the word "wisdom" is a feminine word. But as shown in the previous post, this detracts not one iota from the reference being of the Son of God and His masculinity.
In my King James Bible, supplied words are in italics. It shows many italicized words in Proverbs 8 and 9. There the words ‘she’ and ‘her,’ referring to the personification of wisdom, are not italicized.
In my King James Bible, supplied words are in italics. It shows many italicized words in Proverbs 8 and 9. There the words ‘she’ and ‘her,’ referring to the personification of wisdom, are not italicized.
How do you explain that?
In the Interlinear bible, those words are not part of the original language. Perhaps those english words (she, her) were supplied to complement the feminine subject words. In any case, it doesn't matter as the use of feminine gender words that bring out an aspect of Christ does nothing to affect His masculinity in being God's Son, i.e., "wisdom", "petra". Also, Jesus in John 10:7 says "I am the door". The Greek word for "door" is "thura" which is a feminine word describing an aspect of the very masculine Son of God. Jesus also says of Himself, "I am the way" in John 14:6. The Greek word for "way" is "hodos" and its feminine, another word describing an aspect of the Son of God. So, Christ describing Himself as "wisdom", "rock", "door", "way" does nothing to negate His masculinity and literal Sonship to God the Father.
Regarding Proverbs 8: is there a single Hebrew scholar in all the Internet who agrees with you? Please list a few links.
Would the agreement or diagreement of Hebrew scholars determine the truth or error of a doctrinal position? The Hebrew scholars of Jesus' day disagreed that He fulfilled the prophecies of scripture identifying Him as the promised Messiah. On the other hand, there were a few of them who saw the truth. Did any of those opposing positions of those ancient Hebrew scholars establish truth? Was the establishment of their perceived truth that Christ was not the promised Messiah based upon a majority consensus of those ancient Hebrew scholars? It would seem so. Did that establish truth? No, it did not. Did it establish error? Yes - for an entire nation rejected their Messiah. Therefore is the consensus of scholars a safe guide in establishing truth? I would say no.
I propose that the real underlying question here is what determines truth. Is it the consensus of scholars or the consensus of harmony in the different writers of the bible that God inspired to pen His truth?
I didn’t ask for the consensus of scholarly opinion. I asked if there is a single Hebrew scholar in all the Internet who agrees with you.
Eugene, this question has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. It matters not whether I can find a scholar from the internet that agrees with me or not.
But to answer your question, I don't know. I haven't checked. And whether there is or is not an internet Hebrew scholar that would agree with me is inconsequential in determining what biblical truth is.
There are Hebrew scholars today that still reject Isaiah 53 as pertaiining to Christ. So, then should all trust go to the scholars, or to the promised Holy Spirit who was to guide the christian into "all truth"?
Christ was FOREORDAINED TO BE THE SON OF GOD before the earth was created. He was not "born" before the earth was created.
God "brought forth His son" in the "fullness of time" "made of a woman" "made under the law." Gal. 4:4
Quote:
1 Peter 1.18-20
Forasmuch as ye know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Gal. 4.4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Rev. 13.8
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Was Christ slain before the earth was created?
No, He was not-- but it was FOREORDAINED that He would be slain to redeem the fallan race.
Was Christ "born" before the earth was created?
NO, BUT, HE was foreordained that He would lay aside His own power and be literally born a child, in complete SON relationship with the FATHER.
The plan of salvation was conceived and brought forth before creation was begun. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8);
Before Creation was begun, God wrestled with the question with foreknowledge of the “rebellion” of the created against HIM. Would He create?
Let us continue on with some more verses in Proverbs chapter 8, and learn more about the characteristics of Wisdom.
Quote:
“While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth: When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep: When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.” (Proverbs 8:26-30)
Yes, it is speaking of Christ, but not of His “origin” but of the commitment and love of God, that creation would move forward, they the “persons” in the ONE Godhead, delighted and rejoiced with the creation. But yes, the plan of salvation was “brought forth” with “pain”. How could it be otherwise?
God gave up far more than the “simplistic” earthly rendition of a "son" that the “anti-Trinitarians are pushing. The Trinity was together from eternity, they were ONE, it is the CREATOR HIMSELF, willing to die for the created! There was far more at risk than God merely losing His Son, should Jesus fail. ALL HEAVEN WAS AT RISK! The whole Godhead was at risk!
Together they formed the plans for creation, ("Let us make" Gen.1:26)Together they realized sin would arise. Yet, God did NOT hold back from creating, nor did He create a bunch of robots, for He wanted intelligent beings to communicate and fellowship with. BUT KNOWING SIN WOULD COME GOD PROVIDED HIMSELF AS THE LAMB.
Rev. 13.8
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
No, God wasn’t alone and as He contemplated creation.
God the Father didn't looked into the future and seeing that sin would arise, decided to generated a Son who was not God in himself, who owed his godhood, and life and obedience to Him, and who God could send to die for us, so God Himself didn’t have to do it.
No, that was not the way it was, nor was the plan of salvation an afterthought--
There is ONLY ONE GOD, one Deity in perfect oneness, yet three persons, and God HIMSELF -- the CREATOR HIMSELF -- the second person in the Godhead, before the creation began became “the LAMB OF GOD SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Quote:
YI.1900-06-21.002
Not one of the angels could have become surety for the human race: their life is God's; they could not surrender it. The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man's freedom. He is the eternal, self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come; and when God asked, "Whom shall I send?" he could reply, "Here am I; send me."
Christ became surety for the human race, BEFORE CREATION was started. For He is the LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH.
How this distorts any LOVE, I do not understand. That love was there for us BEFORE CREATION. It transcends any love imaginable. For they were and ARE ONE in a sense far greater than even a Father/Son relationship can achieve. ONE in three persons.
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