Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: A comment on the poll
A comment on the poll:
The poll that heads this topic is set up so that anyone who chooses one particular option is construed to not believe the Bible. The poll reads:
Quote:
Will GOD only save some, ...or as the Word says ...ALL?
ALL...
SOME...
DONT KNOW...
There are three options:
1) God will only save some
2) God will save all
3) The answer is not known
In the stem of the question, however, the phrase 'or as the Word says' is tied to the second option -- God will save all. In other words, the writer of this question is implying that option one is NOT what the Word says. So if I was to vote for option 1, I have already been positioned as a person whose view is not Scriptural. This is a very biased way of asking a question. This implies that there is an agenda on the part of the writer to push a particular view rather than to solicit opinion from people, all of whom may believe in the Word of God but interpret it differently.
It is not clear why anyone would engage in a discussion with someone who has already put the opposition in a camp labelled 'unbiblical'. But here goes...
The question behind the poll is this: Does God ultimately save every human being? I don't believe God does. The following Scriptures are some of the evidence for my conclusion:
Quote:
'But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.’' (Mt 7:23, NLT)
'“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons! ' (Mt 25:41, NLT)
'And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”' (Mt 25:46, NLT)
'Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment. ' (Jn 5:28-29, NLT)
'They will be punished with everlasting destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power ' (2 Th 1:9, NLT)
'Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do.' (2 Th 2:12, NLT)
'Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.' (Re 22:15, NLT)
In deciding on the extent of salvation, it is important to realise that the texts that speak of universal salvation MUST be generalisations that have exceptions. We know this because of the biblical data that explicitly states that some will be lost (see the above). We have to take all the biblical data into account when deciding on an issue. Some other examples may serve to clarify this issue of generalisations.
The writer of Hebrews, speaking of Christ, says that '[God] gave him [Christ] authority over all things.” Now when it says “all things,” it means nothing is left out. But we have not yet seen all of this happen.' (Heb 2:8, NLT)
This is an absolute statement - 'nothing is left out.' And yet, in 1 Corinthians 15:27 we read: 'For the Scriptures say, “God has given him authority over all things.” (Of course, when it says “authority over all things,” it does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)'
In other words, if we only had Hebrews 2:8, someone could argue that Christ even had authority over God. But 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows that Hebrews 2:8 is obviously a generalisation which needs to be read with the understanding that a generalisation can have exceptions.
Another example: Paul, in 1 Cor 6:12, states: 'All things are lawful for me [Paul].' But is this absolute statement really literally true? No, it is a generalisation that has obvious exceptions because we know, for example, that Paul is against sin.
Again: Matt 19:26 states that 'with God all things are possible'. Taken on its own, this seems like an absolute statement. But we know from 2 Tim 2:13 that God 'cannot deny himself'.
Another example: 2 Tim 1:15 states that ''You are aware that all who are in Asia have turned away from me [Paul], including Phygelus and Hermogenes.' (2 Ti 1:15, NRSV). Read as an absolute one would conclude that there was NOONE in Asia who supported Paul. But in the very next verse we read about the household of Onesiphorus who were an exception to Paul's statement.
In other words, the so-called universalistic texts quoted by WillieH must be read in the light of the WHOLE of Scripture. When read thus, it is clear that they are generalisations for which there are exceptions. In other words, the WHOLE of Scripture says:
All persons will be saved EXCEPT those which the Bible says will be lost.
So, in my view, option 1 is the correct, biblical answer.
However, as long as a man is still walking, there is hope of repentance and salvation, as is described in Ezekiel etc.
The poll was worded in a biased way.
The error, a common one resulting usually from a naive partial reading of scripture in combination with a personal desire to see "God's will accomplished", albeit there is clearly an inseparable element of self-interest in seeing *everyone* saved, namely I am saved too. This is the thin wedge that allows a person to ignore some scriptures or assume some convenient explanation for them.
Gradually, a person following this little step off of the path takes more and more extreme actions to preserve a doctrine which is faulty, because it is not based on a wholistic and consistent interpretation of scriptures.
Eventually, when ignoring or interpreting away problem passages leaves behind a significant residue that cannot be so handled, the person begins to attack scripture itself.
Another way people are led into this error is through Calvinist extreme doctrines of 'Salvation by Grace alone', leaving the sinner a completely non-participating powerless observer in a 'predestined' plan of salvation. This becomes a shallow elitism feeding pride and emboldening the individual to indulge himself, since salvation is 'predestined' and can't be lost.
In true biblical interpretation there is no 'predestination' for individual salvation. The general plan of salvation was predetermined and prophecied, not the individual cases. Each man must seek his own salvation with fear and trembling.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 am Post subject:
Rogue Physicist wrote:
Nicely said.
However, as long as a man is still walking, there is hope of repentance and salvation, as is described in Ezekiel etc.
Totally agree with you. I believe the only way someone can be lost is if they persistently, for their whole life, reject God.
Quote:
This becomes a shallow elitism feeding pride and emboldening the individual to indulge himself, since salvation is 'predestined' and can't be lost.
Of course, Calvin taught that a person may display all the signs of being an elect person but, in reality, not being one. So there is no reassurance at all in Calvinism.
Quote:
In true biblical interpretation there is no 'predestination' for individual salvation. The general plan of salvation was predetermined and prophecied, not the individual cases. Each man must seek his own salvation with fear and trembling.
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:49 am Post subject: Reject God?
WillieH: What is biblical about rejecting God? My Bible says...
"...Who has RESISTED His WILL" (Rom 9:39)
"...If I be lifted up, I WILL draw (drag) ALL Men unto Me" (John 12:32)
Well, ....what is His Will?
"(God) ...is not WILLING that ANY should PERISH but that ALL should come to repentence." (2 Pet 3:9)
Man, imprisoned within his RELIGIOUS BONDAGE keeps himself in chains of falsehood..
"Ye shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set you FREE" (John 8:32)
With the multitudes of so-called TRUTH within RELIGIONS such as Catholics, SDA's, Lutherans, Baptists, Salvationists, not to mention the RELIGIOUS chaos outside CHRISTIANITY...
It is no wonder the Savior said: "when the Son of Man returns, ...will He find FAITH on the earth?"
There it can be argued, that some type of FAITH is in practice by almost everyone on Earth in this day, which many believe is the Last days...
But, ... Christ's question here is concerning TRUE FAITHwhich contains NO RELIGION... That seeks GOD's WILL, faith that believes that ALL THINGS are possible with GOD, to include the saving of ALL... (The CENTERPIECE of the NT)
What IS OBVIOUS, is that the battles and disagreements with the JEWISH RELIGION sufficiently taught NOTHING to coming Christianity... Christianity today is a mirror of JUDAISM which effectively and RELIGIOUSLY dismissed the TRUTH...
The common Christian swallows hook, line and sinker, ...its "churches" doctrine, REJECTS all others... in the confidence that their "church" knows and practices and preaches the "truth" LOL... Satan is having a picnic within Christianity, and ALL within these prison gates will vehemently argue that their church has the truth and all the others are false, cults, etc.
With all these "versions" of Truth.. how is one to KNOW that his/her preference is true? Is there no possibility that deception is prevalent in your understanding? As long as RELIGION is involved, ...truth will be hidden in the doctrinal deception of all given versions...
Only when one is willing to separate oneself from RELIGION, and total agreement with any churches stand, ...then proceeds to SEEK for His/herself, GOD and His Word... Not explaining away... but, by the power of the Holy Spirit's REVEALING via the giving over oneself TOTALLY (living sacrifice) to Christ and abandoning the local SOCIAL CLUBS that call themselves "churches", in favor of FOLLOWING CHRIST as opposed to church-fed baloney... then will the FAITH appear that Christ was questioning... and NOT before!!
To that I say: "Study to show thyself approved.."
In JESUS, ...WillieH
spozzie wrote:
Rogue Physicist wrote:
Nicely said.
However, as long as a man is still walking, there is hope of repentance and salvation, as is described in Ezekiel etc.
Totally agree with you. I believe the only way someone can be lost is if they persistently, for their whole life, reject God.
Quote:
This becomes a shallow elitism feeding pride and emboldening the individual to indulge himself, since salvation is 'predestined' and can't be lost.
Of course, Calvin taught that a person may display all the signs of being an elect person but, in reality, not being one. So there is no reassurance at all in Calvinism.
Quote:
In true biblical interpretation there is no 'predestination' for individual salvation. The general plan of salvation was predetermined and prophecied, not the individual cases. Each man must seek his own salvation with fear and trembling.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Reject God?
Hi WillieH
I'll try to take our points one at a time:
Quote:
WillieH: What is biblical about rejecting God? My Bible says...
I guess we could throw proof-texts around forever without getting anywhere. I'm not sure what sort of evidence you would need to be convinced of an alternative view to your own.
However, I will try to provide some evidence in answer to your question: What is biblical about rejecting God? I assume you mean, Does the Bible allow for the possibility of someone rejecting God? There seems to be evidence of this in the following passages (all emphasis supplied):
'For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul,
and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord.' (Ps 10:3, ESV)
'They shall eat, but not be satisfied;
they shall play the whore, but not multiply;
because they have forsaken the Lord
to devote themselves to' (Ho 4:10, NRSV)
'But today you have rejected your God, who saves you from all your calamities and your distresses; and you have said, ‘No! but set a king over us.’ Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans.”' (1 Sa 10:19, NRSV)
'But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.)' (Lk 7:30, NRSV)
'But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.' (Is 1:28, NRSV)
'The Lord will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me.' (Dt 28:20, NRSV)
'For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and cavalry to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king that the hand of our God is gracious to all who seek him, but his power and his wrath are against all who forsake him.' (Ezr 8:22, NRSV)
I honestly don't know how you can say that the Bible does not allow for people rejecting God.
Quote:
With all these "versions" of Truth.. how is one to KNOW that his/her preference is true? Is there no possibility that deception is prevalent in your understanding? As long as RELIGION is involved, ...truth will be hidden in the doctrinal deception of all given versions...
This is a two-edged sword. Remember, if this is true then it equally may apply to your own view.
Quote:
Only when one is willing to separate oneself from RELIGION, and total agreement with any churches stand, ...then proceeds to SEEK for His/herself, GOD and His Word... Not explaining away... but, by the power of the Holy Spirit's REVEALING via the giving over oneself TOTALLY (living sacrifice) to Christ and abandoning the local SOCIAL CLUBS that call themselves "churches", in favor of FOLLOWING CHRIST as opposed to church-fed baloney... then will the FAITH appear that Christ was questioning... and NOT before!!
Can I respectfully suggest that the view you are promoting here is actually anti-New Testament. The New Testament authors never saw Christianity in such an invdividualistic way. In fact, just the opposite. The author of Hebrews urges Christians:
'not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.' (Heb 10:25, NRSV)
Most of the letters in the New Testament are written to organised churches - not individuals who have separated themselves from others.
Here's just a few references to churches in the New Testament:
All the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart (Rev. 2:23); he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 28; 3:6, 13, 22); the churches of God have no other practice (1_Cor. 11:16); as I teach in every church (1_Cor. 4:17); as I direct in every church (1_Cor. 7:17); as in all the churches (1_Cor. 14:33); I, Jesus, have sent my angel with this testimony to the churches (Rev. 22:16); Paul strengthened the churches (Acts 15:41); the churches were strengthened (Acts 16:5); concern for all the churches (2_Cor. 11:28); let the women keep silence in the churches (1_Cor. 14:34); not only I, but all the churches give thanks to Prisca and Aquila (Rom. 16:4); all the churches of Christ greet you (Rom. 16:16); the brother who is famous among all the churches for preaching the gospel (2_Cor. 8:18); he has been appointed by the churches to travel with us in this gracious work (2_Cor. 8:19); I robbed other churches, taking pay from them (2_Cor. 11:8); we boast of you among the churches of God (2_Thess. 1:4); how were you less favoured than the other churches? (2_Cor. 12:13); no church except you shared with me in giving and receiving (Phil. 4:15).
To separate oneself from the church body and think that we can find our way completely on our own is a dangerously arrogant position to take.
One of the portraits of the church in Scripture is that of
'The family. This ... portrait of the church in Ephesians is that we are all “members of God’s household” (v. 19). The “whole family of believers … derives its name” (3:14) from God the Father. That name is “family,” and from God’s name as Father we learn that we are children together. We are brothers and sisters now in the loving, intimate context of a home.'
Richards, L. O. (1987; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). The teacher's commentary (electronic ed.). Wheaton: Victor Books.
Individualism has led to much heretical teaching down through history. True theology is done within the community of believers. That doesn't mean we cannot disagree with others or have our own opinions. It is merely a recognition that, left to ourselves, we have a strong inclination to go astray.
C S Lewis quite rightly said that, if you
'forget that [a person] belongs to the same organism as yourself you will become and Individualist. If you forget that [a person] is is a different organ from you, if you want to suppress differences and make people all alike, you will become a Totalitarian. But a Christian must not be either a Totalitarian or an Individualist.' (Mere Christianity, p. 156)
I think this is true when it comes to theology. If we forget that we are part of the body of Christ, we will become Individualist in our thinking with no constraints and no humble awareness that we need, at times, the corrective of brothers and sisters. On the other hand, if we forget that each person is an individual in their own right, we will want to eradicate differences of thought and try to force others to conform to our own views -- make them little clones of our own.
I encourage you to do theology within the community of believers and not to set yourself apart, condemning your brothers and sisters in such a generalised manner. It is too simplistic to just assume that everything within Christianity is false.
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Reject God?
WillieH: Hi Spozzie...
On your post there Spozzie... first you state that we could throw "proof texts" back and forth forever... then proceed to do just that?
The REJECTION that you quote in the OT was of a TEMPORARY nature... (Why do I say this and on what do I base this? "and so, ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED" - Rom 11:26)
The REJECTION we discuss of CHRIST (according to YOUR THINKING) is of an ETERNAL NATURE...
My point is that CHRIST CANNOT be REJECTED by Human beings... ETERNALLY.. "Who hath RESISTED His WILL?" - WHAT is His WILL? Come on.. Same as His Mission... no sense in repeating the verses, you know them.. you are RESPONSIBLE to Preach them... If you dont, it is your problem before the Creator... You WILL answer to Him...
Sure Spozzie... ALL of us have rejected spiritual things at one time or another.. SOME continue to... MANY will reject to their dying (fleshly death) day!
But the Scripture states (in both the OT & NT) that EVERY KNEE shall bow, and EVERY TONGUE confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD to the GLORY of GOD the FATHER! (Is 45:23/Rom 14:11/Phil 2:10) No REJECTION HERE!
On the contrary... in the end, the only thing that can and WILL be REJECTED is DEATH itself! And LIFE for those that believe (in the end) He is LORD... Thereby GLORIFYING LIFE (which iIS what CHRIST stated He was - I am the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE..")! NOT DEATH.. as YOU think?
Your picture of GOD and His plan is one of absolute FAILURE... Unable to OVERCOME feeble mankind... Unable via LOVE to OVERCOME Evil... Unable via LIFE to OVERCOME ..DEATH! Come on oh sleeping one... This is Spiritual perception 101!
What of the Reconciliation of ALL THINGS? What does the word RECONCILE mean to you? How many does ALL include? How is GOD the SAVIOR of ALL MEN if He doesnt SAVE ALL MEN? I could ask you millions of questions you cannot answer with your selective and conditional doctrines that are built on sand.... The ROCK is CHRIST and ALL are HIS! He will in NO WISE ...CAST out any that come to Him... EVERY KNEE bud! How many "knees" does this DISINCLUDE? How many will come? "If I am lifted up I will DRAW (Drag) ALL MEN unto ME" Does this verse state "in this lifetime"? Does He say... I will draw all men unto me in this lifetime? or are those YOUR WORDS?
On gathering together or forsaking same.. you again live in the flesh... this is speaking of the SAINTLY GATHERING that is done IN PRAYER, it is done in the STUDY of the WORD, it is done in the SPIRIT... Who is gonna stand before GOD with YOU? Elder jones? Pastor Smith? Nun Elsie? Pope Pierre? Or will you stand... ALONE?
Don't feel bad... because your understandings are unspiritual and carnal. These understandings are very prevalent in the various DIVISIONS of the CHURCH, that is why the Word says: "Come out of HER (babylon/divided Christianity) My people..." (Rev 18:4) Most of CHRISTIANITY is immersed in Her and because they remain carnal, they do not see the things of the Spirit... they remain in prison, and the Word has NOT set them FREE... They are the "elder son" claiming to have been with the Father all along, who's LOVE has waxed cold... they see NOT the compassion and MERCY in GOD's claim to be SAVIOR of ALL.. in His claim that He is NOT a RESPECTER of Persons (as in most the "church" social clubs)... But FEAR NOT... By the time it is all said and DONE, ...GOD will bring ALL HOME to His throne, He will bring ALL HOME to LIFE... and the HUMAN FAMILY HOME will not be missing even ONE member!
So Spozz... I wish you well.. more than that, I wish you JESUS, and the eyes to see Him in His word exactly as He claims... FULL of MERCY... SAVIOR of ALL... LOVE (AGAPE), ....which is UNCONDITIONAL... (not dependent on the stupidity of man, but the WISDOM of GOD)..
Vain babblings I leave to those that want to play CHURCH instead of WORSHIP... BABYLON is something to COME OUT OF... not PARTICIPATE in.. If you WILL NOT HEAR... it is NOT your time...
In JESUS, ....WillieH
spozzie wrote:
Hi WillieH
I'll try to take our points one at a time:
Quote:
WillieH: What is biblical about rejecting God? My Bible says...
I guess we could throw proof-texts around forever without getting anywhere. I'm not sure what sort of evidence you would need to be convinced of an alternative view to your own.
However, I will try to provide some evidence in answer to your question: What is biblical about rejecting God? I assume you mean, Does the Bible allow for the possibility of someone rejecting God? There seems to be evidence of this in the following passages (all emphasis supplied):
'For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul,
and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord.' (Ps 10:3, ESV)
'They shall eat, but not be satisfied;
they shall play the whore, but not multiply;
because they have forsaken the Lord
to devote themselves to' (Ho 4:10, NRSV)
'But today you have rejected your God, who saves you from all your calamities and your distresses; and you have said, ‘No! but set a king over us.’ Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans.”' (1 Sa 10:19, NRSV)
'But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.)' (Lk 7:30, NRSV)
'But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.' (Is 1:28, NRSV)
'The Lord will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me.' (Dt 28:20, NRSV)
'For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and cavalry to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king that the hand of our God is gracious to all who seek him, but his power and his wrath are against all who forsake him.' (Ezr 8:22, NRSV)
I honestly don't know how you can say that the Bible does not allow for people rejecting God.
Quote:
With all these "versions" of Truth.. how is one to KNOW that his/her preference is true? Is there no possibility that deception is prevalent in your understanding? As long as RELIGION is involved, ...truth will be hidden in the doctrinal deception of all given versions...
This is a two-edged sword. Remember, if this is true then it equally may apply to your own view.
Quote:
Only when one is willing to separate oneself from RELIGION, and total agreement with any churches stand, ...then proceeds to SEEK for His/herself, GOD and His Word... Not explaining away... but, by the power of the Holy Spirit's REVEALING via the giving over oneself TOTALLY (living sacrifice) to Christ and abandoning the local SOCIAL CLUBS that call themselves "churches", in favor of FOLLOWING CHRIST as opposed to church-fed baloney... then will the FAITH appear that Christ was questioning... and NOT before!!
Can I respectfully suggest that the view you are promoting here is actually anti-New Testament. The New Testament authors never saw Christianity in such an invdividualistic way. In fact, just the opposite. The author of Hebrews urges Christians:
'not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.' (Heb 10:25, NRSV)
Most of the letters in the New Testament are written to organised churches - not individuals who have separated themselves from others.
Here's just a few references to churches in the New Testament:
All the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart (Rev. 2:23); he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 28; 3:6, 13, 22); the churches of God have no other practice (1_Cor. 11:16); as I teach in every church (1_Cor. 4:17); as I direct in every church (1_Cor. 7:17); as in all the churches (1_Cor. 14:33); I, Jesus, have sent my angel with this testimony to the churches (Rev. 22:16); Paul strengthened the churches (Acts 15:41); the churches were strengthened (Acts 16:5); concern for all the churches (2_Cor. 11:28); let the women keep silence in the churches (1_Cor. 14:34); not only I, but all the churches give thanks to Prisca and Aquila (Rom. 16:4); all the churches of Christ greet you (Rom. 16:16); the brother who is famous among all the churches for preaching the gospel (2_Cor. 8:18); he has been appointed by the churches to travel with us in this gracious work (2_Cor. 8:19); I robbed other churches, taking pay from them (2_Cor. 11:8); we boast of you among the churches of God (2_Thess. 1:4); how were you less favoured than the other churches? (2_Cor. 12:13); no church except you shared with me in giving and receiving (Phil. 4:15).
To separate oneself from the church body and think that we can find our way completely on our own is a dangerously arrogant position to take.
One of the portraits of the church in Scripture is that of
'The family. This ... portrait of the church in Ephesians is that we are all “members of God’s household” (v. 19). The “whole family of believers … derives its name” (3:14) from God the Father. That name is “family,” and from God’s name as Father we learn that we are children together. We are brothers and sisters now in the loving, intimate context of a home.'
Richards, L. O. (1987; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). The teacher's commentary (electronic ed.). Wheaton: Victor Books.
Individualism has led to much heretical teaching down through history. True theology is done within the community of believers. That doesn't mean we cannot disagree with others or have our own opinions. It is merely a recognition that, left to ourselves, we have a strong inclination to go astray.
C S Lewis quite rightly said that, if you
'forget that [a person] belongs to the same organism as yourself you will become and Individualist. If you forget that [a person] is is a different organ from you, if you want to suppress differences and make people all alike, you will become a Totalitarian. But a Christian must not be either a Totalitarian or an Individualist.' (Mere Christianity, p. 156)
I think this is true when it comes to theology. If we forget that we are part of the body of Christ, we will become Individualist in our thinking with no constraints and no humble awareness that we need, at times, the corrective of brothers and sisters. On the other hand, if we forget that each person is an individual in their own right, we will want to eradicate differences of thought and try to force others to conform to our own views -- make them little clones of our own.
I encourage you to do theology within the community of believers and not to set yourself apart, condemning your brothers and sisters in such a generalised manner. It is too simplistic to just assume that everything within Christianity is false.
May God bless you as you continue your journey...
Regards
Steve
Last edited by WillieH on Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject: One last note... concerning CONDEMNATION...
WillieH: Hey Spozz..
I forgot one thing before closing... You stated that I condemn my brothers and sisters in Christ in "such a generalized manner" ... I DO NOT CONDEMN anyone! You obviously havent read my posts at all! I PRAY FOR ALL to hear! I believe ALL are GOD's! Do you? How many do YOU CONDEMN (in your thinking)? "For as he thinketh in HIS HEART... so is he..." (Pro 23:7)
I "thinketh" in my HEART that GOD loves ALL.. that HE is the ALMIGHTY SAVIOR of ALL... that He CONDEMNS NONE... How thinketh YOU SPOZZ?
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ with agape love... unconditional.. I condemn no one... I merely aspire to point out that GOD is the ORIGIN of AGAPE.. that He LOVES ALL...
In most EVANGELICAL Churches... the unsaved is approached with a hearty... "God LOVES you (AGAPE/UNCONDITIONALLY)" then are subsequently warned... if you do not believe our message, ...you'll be burned up in HELL.. or be tormented forever.. (depending on the extreme degree of their misunderstanding)...
I ask you, ...What kind of "LOVE" is contained in such a message? Logic dictates such a message is shallow at best... and TRUTH IS, that it is actually "LOVE" based on this (shallow) persons view of the truth, ...as opposed to GOD's TRUE (agape) LOVE, which INTENDS to SAVE and REDEEM this precious unsaved person's life!
So I shall leave "condemning" up to you and those that oppose the Gospel... I do NOT CONDEMN... I will, as long as GOD gives me breath, point out to those that have ears... that GOD LOVES ALL... where do you find CONDEMNATION in this? Because I do not approve of false teaching you label it condemnation? ...PLEASE...
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: One last note... concerning CONDEMNATION...
Hi WilliH
Quote:
I forgot one thing before closing... You stated that I condemn my brothers and sisters in Christ in "such a generalized manner" ... I DO NOT CONDEMN anyone! You obviously havent read my posts at all! I PRAY FOR ALL to hear! I believe ALL are GOD's! Do you? How many do YOU CONDEMN (in your thinking)? "For as he thinketh in HIS HEART... so is he..." (Pro 23:7)
Sorry if I misunderstood you... I wasn't suggesting you condemn others in relation to their salvation. I was responding to what I understood as your generalisation that all the churches have got it wrong; that all people in these churches just go along with whatever their churches teach them; and so on. My point was that these are generalisations that essentially lead to a prejudice against anyone who happens to stay within the organised church. I would agree with you that there is a distinction to be made between religion and the core message of the gospel. And often these two things are inconsistent with each other. But I was just encouraging you to pull back from the generalisations and stay focused on the issue. I think it is possible to discuss an issue without making generalisations that my not be entirely correct.
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: Church...
WillieH: Hello Spozz...
I myself, was baptized in the SDA church... went to Salvation Army for 20+yrs and now attend (for last 2yrs) the SDA church... (I do believe in the SABBATH, not as a Law, but as a gift that GOD lovingly gave us to enjoy, worship and fellowship with HIM)
In the SDA church, I find much kindness and LOVE.... both attributes of GODLINESS...
I do find flaws in the Gospel presented there, but also.. I find SINCERITY, and a lack of CONDEMNATION of others... Both attributes of GODLINESS...
So... that's where I go to join others in Worship... That I do NOT know all, means I have much to learn.. so why should I condemn anyone? I do NOT!
In generalizing about doctrinal beliefs... It is common to find this happening in the Salvation Army, @ Assembly of God @ Catholic @ Lutheran @ Baptist.... etc. etc... Most ARE NOT studying for themselves... Seeking as an individual... they just want to be part of the group (sincerely) and accept the teachings and guidance of the leaders of their church as truth...
All these flawed teachings compose BABYLON... we are called to come out of Her (the teachings) and SEPARATE ourselves from these teachings.. Again, to repeat myself, ...lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.. I have had repeated conversations with the church pastor... He disagrees with me, but loves me nevertheless... He also doesn't fear that I might undermind the SDA stand... I do not.. However... If I am asked about my beliefs.. I answer in the TRUTH of which I am aware, NOT in the doctrine of the SDA church...
In my view... GOD LOVES ALL His Children.. He is the LIGHT of EVERY MAN.. and IS fully able and intends upon reconciling ALL to Himself..
God is not a monster lying in wait to DESTROY US... He also knows that we are easily misled (for we deal with powers and principalities that are Ancient and much stronger, intelligent and dilligent in their agenda than we). We being sheep NEED the SHEPHERD and His POWER, otherwise, we are NO MATCH for the Evil spirits that endeavor to take us to our destruction (sheep are, for lack of better terminology ...dumb!)
Yes, ...I said DESTRUCTION.. but... what is that? A very misunderstood thing (and WORD) to say the least... I have taken the liberty of posting a short teaching concerning the word APOLLUMI (destruction in the Greek) which is assumed to be final... it is NOT... What GOD intends to DESTROY is the evil/sin/and death that have attached themselves to Humanity via the original DISOBEDIENCE of our earthly Father & Mother.. Adam & Eve..
In JESUS, ...WillieH - Steve, Please take a few moments to view this...
The "Destruction" of the Wicked..........
"Destruction" is a key term in the Bible used to support the teaching of either annihilation of the wicked or hell fire for eternity or "burning as long as one deserves." The term "destruction" leads to many differences of opinion. But most of the conclusions are not Scripturally based.
How do we come up with the real definition of a word in the Bible? Well, many say that the first occurrence of a word in the Scriptures reveals its meaning. But it is certainly a "reach" to suggest that the first occurrence of a word gives its primary meaning, since it is not known exactly when the Gospels were written. Matthew is thought to have been written around A.D. 50; Mark, the date is not known; Luke was thought to have been written in A.D. 59 to 63, and the Gospel of John, for a long time was assumed to have been written in the A.D. 70's, but it probably was written closer to the A.D. 50's. Paul wrote Romans around A.D. 57, and yet all of these dates are rather tenuous. So just looking at the "first instance" of a word in the Bible does not mean that that was the first instance it was used chronologically. Therefore, the "first" occurrence of the word is not necessarily its "primary" meaning.
The only sound system of determining the "primary" or essential meaning of any word is to gather all of its occurrences in the Bible, and to make certain that its meaning never contradicts any of the contexts in which it is used.
Let's take a look at the word apollumi in the Greek Scriptures. This is the Greek word that is often translated "destroy" or "lost" describing the wicked. But does this word apollumi really mean "to deprive of life" permanently? Let's allow the Bible to interpret itself and give us the true meaning of apollumi.
Uses of the Greek word "apollumi"
On the following pages you will see the many ways the word "apollumi" is used in the New Testament. You will see that sometimes it is translated "lost" such as in the "lost" sheep, when the sheep was alive. In other places, the same word, "apollumi," is translated "perish" or "destroyed" and the implication in these last two instances is that the individual is dead.
But the same word, "apollumi," CANNOT mean "to be alive" in some instances AND "to be dead" in other instances. In other words, the same word cannot mean both "death" and "life."
The definition of the word apollumi, #622 in Stong's Concordance, is shown above. However, this definition is nothing more than a reflection of the mistranslations of the word in the King James Version and various other versions of the Bible.
You will see that this word, apollumi, (#622) is often translated "lost," when the "lost" item was subsequently "found" such as in the parable of the "lost" sheep, the "lost" coin and the "lost" son (Prodigal son) in Luke 15. In NO instance had the sheep, the coin or the prodigal son died. And of course, the coin NEVER HAD life. Therefore, the word apollumi CANNOT mean "to deprive of life."
The same word, apollumi (#622) is also often translated "perish" as in Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish (apollumi) without law:"
And in Peter 2:12, ". . .and shall utterly perish (apollumi) in their own corruption."
And in 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10 where it says: "Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish (apollumi): because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
The same word, apollumi (#622) is also often translated "destroy" and is assumed to mean "to deprive of life" as in John 10:9, 10 where Jesus is speaking,
"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. . ."
Please note that there are three words used to describe what the thief comes to do: 1) steal, 2) kill, 3) destroy. The word translated "kill" is the Greek word "thuo" (#2380) which means to slay or slaughter, as in slaughtering sacrifices.
Obviously the word "kill" (thuo) CANNOT mean the same as the word "destroy" (apollumi) for two reasons: 1) each word is a different word in the Greek 2) it would be redundant if the word "destroy" meant to kill, because if it did, the passage would read, "The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to kill."
The bottom line is this: In order to understand exactly what the Lord is trying to teach us, we must understand the exact words that were inspired. The Bible was NOT written in English. It was written in Hebrew and Greek. We must look to the original language, the original words that God inspired, and let the Bible interpret itself. If we don't, then we are taking the words of man, a translation by committee consensus, as our guide rather than the Divine Word of God.
The proper definition of each word in the Greek is revealed when that specific word, such as apollumi, means the same thing each time it is used. Because the word apollumi is used to define a state of "having life" (the sheep was "lost" but alive, not dead), it CANNOT also be used to define a state that is OPPOSITE of life -- DEATH, such as what the theologians would have us believe is meant in Romans 2:12 and 2 Peter 2:12, as shown above.
In other words, one specific word CANNOT mean both a state of life AND a state of death!
It is obvious from these many uses of the word apollumi, that it CANNOT mean "to deprive of life."
Clearly the Bible translators translated these passages according to their own preconceived theological beliefs.
Matthew 2:13 states "And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him." Christians have assumed that the word "destroy" (apollumi in Greek) in Matthew 2:13 must mean "to deprive of life," but that definition has no support Biblically.
There are Greek words that mean "to deprive of life." They are 1) apokteinco, which means "to kill;" 2) sphazoo, slay; 3) anaireoco, assassinate or massacre; or 4) phoneuco, which means murder.
Apollumi is used for things which have no life, such as wine skin bottles (Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37). These bottles do not "die" when they are "destroyed." A reward is not "mortal." See Matthew 10:42 and Mark 9:41 "Verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose (apollumi) his reward." And gold and money do not "die." In fact, they never had life. See Luke 15:8 and 1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being more precious than of gold that perisheth (apollumi)" The words which actually do mean "to deprive of life" could not be used in these passages. Neither the primary nor the secondary nor the tertiary, nor any other meaning of destroy demands that life be taken.
Apollumi is often used to describe something that either remains alive or has never had life. If the lost (destroyed) sheep (Luke 15:4) had been "deprived of life," the shepherd would not have rejoiced when he found his carcass. A word whose primary meaning is "to deprive of life" cannot have a secondary meaning of "continued life." Death cannot be another form of life. White is not another word for black. And life in any form is not expressed by a word which means death.
Jesus said "He who is finding his soul will be destroying (losing) it, and he who destroys (loses) his soul on my account will be finding it" (Matthew 10:39, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33). Is Jesus urging them to commit suicide? The destruction of the soul does not mean death. It means to dis-assemble or destroy the old man of sin, to destroy our carnal nature, to make us into a New Creation in Christ.
Romans 6:6 describes this process. "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin."
The statement that the "Son of Man came to seek and to save that which is lost (destroyed)" (Luke 19:10) is the key to the meaning of apollumi. This Bible passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus, who was lost (destroyed). Because he was lost (destroyed), he was ready to be found and saved.
The Greek word apollumi is often given an interpretation that means death from which there is no resurrection, or annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. But this passage in Luke 19:10 destroys this premise. Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation! It is impossible to rescue a man who is already safe. It is only when he is in a "lost" condition denoted by the word apollumi that salvation can operate in his behalf.
The terms seek and save mean the opposite of destroy. So the one who is "destroyed," is really just lost, not annihilated, or no one would seek after him in order to save him. He must be in a state which needs salvation or Christ would not have come to seek and to save him. This passage proves beyond a doubt that "destruction" is a salvageable condition, not a state beyond the reach of salvation. In addition, please notice that only the "lost" are saved. This fact reverses the usual idea of destruction. God seeks what He has lost!
(All in All, A. E. Knoch)
Destruction is a relative term. The coin was lost (apollumi) in relation to the woman. The sheep was lost (apollumi) in relation to the shepherd. The prodigal son was lost (apollumi) in relation to his father. They were not dead, but they were away from the woman, the shepherd, and the father, respectively. Does this prove that they were outside the sphere of salvation? No, it actually proves the opposite. Destruction is the prelude to salvation! Destruction never means annihilation, irrespective of how closely it may seem to approach that idea in some cases.
Men are lost by God. It was He who created them. He will be the great Loser if they are not saved. A sinner can never cross a line that brings him beyond the reach of God. Remember that Paul says "I am persuaded that neither death (whether the first or the second death) nor life nor principalities nor powers nor any creature (including Satan) can separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:38,39
If we lose something, it becomes more valuable to us than when we had it. If one loses his eyesight, vision assumes an importance and value that the individual never before perceived. Its loss, instead of distancing us from it, actually increases our attachment to it. This becomes tragically true when we lose a loved one. We then realize the preciousness of our lost possession. So we should never assume that God is not concerned about those that are "lost." Nor should we assume that He will sit complacently while they rush on to eternal annihilation because He's helpless to turn them around. There are a million ways God is able to accomplish His will.
God is love and ALL of His creatures are precious to Him. God loves all of us. But whom does He say that he loves? God loves the world and sinners and His enemies and those who are lost. It takes "destruction" for us to feel our need, and it takes "destruction" to flood us with God's Divine love.
Because men are unable to accomplish all that they wish, they imagine that God also is unable to save the vast majority of humanity. This basic error has so warped the minds of men that they have corrupted the Scriptures to uphold it.
All man knows how to do is to kill something that he cannot control such as a hardened criminal. Is this God's way of handling the situation? God says "I'm not like You, My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9). Christ proclaimed Himself as the Resurrection and the Life. How could the God of the Universe give up on and lose that which is the desire of His heart, those for whom He gave the life of His Son? Theologians have made a little man out of a great God. Where man is impotent, man imagines that God is also impotent. Where man is unable to succeed, man imagines that God is also unable to succeed.
Ephesians 1:11 says God is operating the universe "in accord with the counsel of His own will." We must recognize that destruction is a Divine process and a necessary part of the plan of salvation. Let us look at a few texts. Psalms 90:3, says "Thou (God) turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men."
How can human beings return to God if they have been "destroyed," particularly if the term means annihilation?
In 1 Corinthians 5:5 Paul says he is delivering "such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
One is "saved" by the process of "destruction," destroying the old man of sin.
And in 1 Timothy 1:20 Paul is charging Timothy to hold the faith and a good conscience rather than imitating those who have made a shipwreck of their faith "Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."
Giving someone to Satan is for remedial purposes, so they can learn something, not so they can be annihilated.
Again consider the wineskins, which were "destroyed." Everyone who receives salvation was once lost, "destroyed." Not only was "being lost" no hindrance to their deliverance but it was absolutely essential to it. God has lost them and then through Christ, He found and saved them. God has definitely declared that He is the "Savior of ALL mankind" (1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 4:10).
Though the sinner be lost a thousand times, he is not beyond the reach of the Great Seeker. Notice that the shepherd searches for the sheep, not for any specific finite period of time, but UNTIL HE FINDS IT! The same is true of the woman who lost the coin.
Jesus came to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). We are God's creation, we are NOT the work of the devil. The "devil's work" is the sin in our lives. Jesus came to 1) destroy the sin in our lives, but 2) to SAVE the sinner!.
The story of the Potter (Jeremiah 18:1-7) reveals that it is the Potter Himself who crushes the vessel when He discovers it is marred. But the vessel never leaves the Potter's hands during its "destruction" and re-creation into a New Creature.
God does not destroy anything that he cannot completely restore. "Destruction" is a passing process, not a finished goal. The old sinful nature is destroyed as a prelude to the formation of a New Creature in Christ. Remember God says "Behold I make ALL things new (Revelation 21:5)
For additional information on this topic, see the study entitled "The Second Death."
The "Destruction" of the Wicked
Since "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God," (Romans 3:23) then the meaning of the "destruction" of the wicked is important to all of us.
1) How do we establish the primary or essential meaning of any word in the Bible?
2) Does the Greek word apollumi actually mean "to deprive of life?" If not, what does it mean?
3) Is the word apollumi or "destruction" ever used of anything that remains alive? See Luke 15:4, Matthew 10:6, Luke 19:10.
4) Did the shepherd find a sheep who was "destroyed?" If that means "to deprive of life," how could he have rejoiced over the carcass of the dead sheep?
5) The Bible says that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (apollumi). So only the lost (destroyed apollumi) are eventually saved, and this reverses the usual idea of destruction. God seeks what He has lost. Destruction is the prelude to salvation.
6) Do we, as human beings, ever hold things more dear once we have lost them? Do we appreciate our eyesight as much while we have it as we do when it is gone? Do we appreciate our loved ones more, or less, when they are with us or when they are gone?
7) Is God impotent and powerless to cope with those who are "destroyed?" All that we human beings can do is kill. We cannot recall from death. Is God also limited in this same way? Do we make God like us?
8) The passage usually produced to prove the utter destruction of all sinners is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. Perhaps no stronger verse can be found. It refers to a special crisis when the lawless one is on the scene. They receive "the lie" because the love of truth is not in them. Their destruction is preliminary to their judgment. Is destruction a Divine process or the work of Satan alone?
9) In the third angel's message in Revelation 14:10 it says that those who worship the beast will be tormented with fire and brimstone. What is the derivation of the word brimstone? (see Strong's Concordance).
10) Does God destroy anything that He cannot restore? Is He impotent in the face of the adversary, a creature that He has created? Is the adversary smarter or more clever than God? Can Satan win the majority of God's creatures away from God and God is impotent to win them back?
11) Is "destruction" a passing process or a finished goal? Matthew 18:11.
spozzie wrote:
Hi WilliH
Quote:
I forgot one thing before closing... You stated that I condemn my brothers and sisters in Christ in "such a generalized manner" ... I DO NOT CONDEMN anyone! You obviously havent read my posts at all! I PRAY FOR ALL to hear! I believe ALL are GOD's! Do you? How many do YOU CONDEMN (in your thinking)? "For as he thinketh in HIS HEART... so is he..." (Pro 23:7)
Sorry if I misunderstood you... I wasn't suggesting you condemn others in relation to their salvation. I was responding to what I understood as your generalisation that all the churches have got it wrong; that all people in these churches just go along with whatever their churches teach them; and so on. My point was that these are generalisations that essentially lead to a prejudice against anyone who happens to stay within the organised church. I would agree with you that there is a distinction to be made between religion and the core message of the gospel. And often these two things are inconsistent with each other. But I was just encouraging you to pull back from the generalisations and stay focused on the issue. I think it is possible to discuss an issue without making generalisations that my not be entirely correct.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Church...
Hi WillieH
Thanks for the interesting reading on 'destruction'. I'll have to think further about that...
Another question: what role do you think free will plays in all this? Does God force those who don't want to be saved, against their will, to be saved?
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject: Free Will...
WillieH: Hi Spozz...
The question/arguement of the supposed exisitence of Free Will is an on-going thing that really in some ways is the devils greatest weapon against us...
When it comes down to whether a will is "free" or not... I personally believe that GOD has the ONLY FREE WILL... and in the end, it is the ONLY WILL that will exist in eternity... Our goal as Christians is to rid ourselves of our supposed "free will" in favor of GOD's WILL is it not? ("...Thy WILL be done IN EARTH as it IS in Heaven..")
Isn't it true that it is our "will" that in fact is the problem? (Check with ADAM & EVE!) Yet most fight tooth & nail for this right.. which scripture bears out does NOT truly exist!
"Oh YHWH I know that the WAY of man is NOTIN Himself, NOTin MAN that Walketh to direct his steps..."(Jer 10:23)
"So then it is NOT of Him that WILLETH (man's "choice"), not of Him that RUNNETH (again Man), but of GOD that showeth mercy..." (Rom 9:16)
"Without Me you can do NOTHING" (John 15:5)
Salvation is an issue and GIFTING totallydecided by GOD...
(1) Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God...
(2) No one can come to the Father but by JESUS...
(3) No one can come to JESUS except the FATHER draw him...
We can't believe unless we have faith.. we cant have faith in JESUS unless GOD draws us to Him.. and we cant come to the Father except thru JESUS... it's all there... GOD giving His GIFT without our Help...
As far as willing or unwilling... all are unwilling until these 3 things occur which are the process of the giving of the gift...
Concerning those that go to the grave in this lifetime (which by number is MOST of Humanity) It is written in both the OT and NT... EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY TONGUE confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD to the Glory of GOD the FATHER... Confession of CHRIST as LORD can only be done by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT! Think about it Steve... You and I (I can only speak for myself but I assume..) were (1) Drawn (2) Given Faith (3) Confessed JESUS... was this done UNWILLINGLY? NO way! I, once the TRUTH of this was OPENED in my eyes and heart... MORE than WILLINGLY bowed and confessed... so shall ALLTESTIFY this, as PAUL states.. In DUE TIME (1 Tim 2:6)
NO ONE wants to be saved ["there is NONE that doeth GOOD.. NO - NOT - ONE..." Ps 14:1-3/Rom 3:12] ...UNTIL... they obtain... the SAVING KNOWLEDGE which is given by GOD... then they (as did we) will WILLINGLY see and receive their SAVIOR (just as we did)!
The illusion of free will: GOD is the only being that has made choices or exercised WILL.... WITHOUT any choices presented...
We, on the other hand, merely choose from the choices made available by GOD ...when He created all things to be CHOSE FROM... He made north and south, so we can choose between them... he made good and evil and so we choose between them..
If we look from GOD's perspective... Who told him to create? Or what to create? Or how many to create? Or what varieties to create? ANSWER: NO ONE... so ALL His choices come from FREE WILL...
We on the other hand, just choose from what He has made available to choose from.. north/south - east/west - eat/fast - drive/walk - laugh/cry - joke/be serious ...it is endless... but NO ONE counseled GOD concerning what HIS CHOICES would be...
Fortunately for us (his creation), He is LOVE... and He chooses to SAVE and BLESS His creation... not DESTROY it...
May the Lord bless the eyes and ears of your Heart as you seek Him..
In JESUS, ...WillieH
spozzie wrote:
Hi WillieH
Thanks for the interesting reading on 'destruction'. I'll have to think further about that...
Another question: what role do you think free will plays in all this? Does God force those who don't want to be saved, against their will, to be saved?
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: Free Will...
WillieH: Hi Spozz...
The question/arguement of the supposed exisitence of Free Will is an on-going thing that really in some ways is the devils greatest weapon against us...
When it comes down to whether a will is "free" or not... I personally believe that GOD has the ONLY FREE WILL... and in the end, it is the ONLY WILL that will exist in eternity... Our goal as Christians is to rid ourselves of our supposed "free will" in favor of GOD's WILL is it not? ("...Thy WILL be done IN EARTH as it IS in Heaven..")
Isn't it true that it is our "will" that in fact is the problem? (Check with ADAM & EVE!) Yet most fight tooth & nail for this right.. which scripture bears out does NOT truly exist!
"Oh YHWH I know that the WAY of man is NOTIN Himself, NOTin MAN that Walketh to direct his steps..."(Jer 10:23)
"So then it is NOT of Him that WILLETH (man's "choice"), not of Him that RUNNETH (again Man), but of GOD that showeth mercy..." (Rom 9:16)
"Without Me you can do NOTHING" (John 15:5)
Salvation is an issue and GIFTING totallydecided by GOD...
(1) Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God...
(2) No one can come to the Father but by JESUS...
(3) No one can come to JESUS except the FATHER draw him...
We can't believe unless we have faith.. we cant have faith in JESUS unless GOD draws us to Him.. and we cant come to the Father except thru JESUS... it's all there... GOD giving His GIFT without our Help...
As far as willing or unwilling... all are unwilling until these 3 things occur which are the process of the giving of the gift...
Concerning those that go to the grave in this lifetime (which by number is MOST of Humanity) It is written in both the OT and NT... EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY TONGUE confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD to the Glory of GOD the FATHER... Confession of CHRIST as LORD can only be done by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT! Think about it Steve... You and I (I can only speak for myself but I assume..) were (1) Drawn (2) Given Faith (3) Confessed JESUS... was this done UNWILLINGLY? NO way! I, once the TRUTH of this was OPENED in my eyes and heart... MORE than WILLINGLY bowed and confessed... so shall ALLTESTIFY this, as PAUL states.. In DUE TIME (1 Tim 2:6)
NO ONE wants to be saved ["there is NONE that doeth GOOD.. NO - NOT - ONE..." Ps 14:1-3/Rom 3:12] ...UNTIL... they obtain... the SAVING KNOWLEDGE which is given by GOD... then they (as did we) will WILLINGLY see and receive their SAVIOR (just as we did)!
The illusion of free will: GOD is the only being that has made choices or exercised WILL.... WITHOUT any choices presented...
We, on the other hand, merely choose from the choices made available by GOD ...when He created all things to be CHOSE FROM... He made north and south, so we can choose between them... he made good and evil and so we choose between them..
If we look from GOD's perspective... Who told him to create? Or what to create? Or how many to create? Or what varieties to create? ANSWER: NO ONE... so ALL His choices come from FREE WILL...
We on the other hand, just choose from what He has made available to choose from.. north/south - east/west - eat/fast - drive/walk - laugh/cry - joke/be serious ...it is endless... but NO ONE counseled GOD concerning what HIS CHOICES would be...
Fortunately for us (his creation), He is LOVE... and He chooses to SAVE and BLESS His creation... not DESTROY it...
May the Lord bless the eyes and ears of your Heart as you seek Him..
PS... this study on Destruction is just a small part of the whole picture.. there are many many other things that I am sure you would find interesting... withheld from all that are not seeking... but visible to those that GOD has called to know the true GOSPEL...
ALWAYS compare with the WORD... ALWAYS make the WORD of GOD, the final decision maker for you!
In JESUS, ...WillieH
spozzie wrote:
Hi WillieH
Thanks for the interesting reading on 'destruction'. I'll have to think further about that...
Another question: what role do you think free will plays in all this? Does God force those who don't want to be saved, against their will, to be saved?
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