Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:09 pm Post subject: Second Law of Thermodynamics and the Atonement
I was recently doing some studies on the Second Law of Therodynamics and its Gospel applications, and I came across some interesting information. We all know that the natural progression of all energy and matter is from an organized state to one of disorder (entropy); yet life exists. There are only two explanations for the existence of our universe and life in it. 1) An outside force (call it God) must have acted upon ther energy, or 2) Mere chance. Atheists opt for the latter of the two options without a moments hesitation, but statistics paint an interesting picture.
Imagine you are walking down the street and you spot a deck of well used cards sitting on the ground. Now imagine that you find them to be in perfect order. What would you assume? Would you assume that someone put them in order intentionally, or would you assume that they were randomly shuffled into perfect order? It would be ludicrous to believe they were shuffled into order. The chance of that happening is 24/10 to the fifty-forth power. Utterly preposterous; and yet, the chances that this universe was created by chance is incalculable. We can't even count that high. Atheists are basically saying that they would assume the cards were shuffled into order before assuming they were placed that way. So, what is it that is bringing matter and energy back together? What could possibly be reconciling all this? How can this at-one-ment be achieved? Interesting, huh?
Atonement has many different meanings in many different languages. In Hebrew it means to cover (tightly, as with a robe or a tight embrace) In Arabic the word is kafat, and it represents a tight embrace. In Latin the word capto means to grasp at something, or grasp something tightly. In Egyptian, the word hpet is drawn as a torso with outstretched arms. At-one-ment is the most commonly used definition of atonement (as well as reconciliation, but we'll get into that). All these meanings imply a tight, intimate embrace, almost like a hug. Bringing one closer by an embrace simulates becoming one with the other person. For the layperson we can say atonement means a great big hug.
Reconciliation comes from the Latin reconcilio, which means "to be seated again with someone." Concilio is where we get council, to sit with someone. Re obviously means "again." The Greek word often translated reconciliation, katallagein, means a return to a former state.
Think about the parable of the prodigal son. What would you do if your long lost son suddenly showed up in your living room, begging for forgiveness? You give him a great big hug (atonement), and then you ask him to sit with you a spell (reconciliation). He sits down AGAIN with you.
Now, it is interesting to note that entropy is one of the greatest obstacles that man has had to face since the beginning. The Egyptians were aware of it, and almost all of their temple rites were designed to deflect the advances of entropy. What did God continuously threaten to do to the House of Israel? Scatter them. Disorganize them They were subsequently scattered, but God promised to bring them back together. The last days are characterized by gathering, the bringing back together that which was lost. The tribes will be RECONCILED. The scriptures speak of the "restitution of all things," "the dispensation of the fulness of times." All is to be restored to it's former state. The garden of Eden was a prototype of heaven. It, too, will be restored.
All thanks to the blood of our Savior. "God be thanked for the gift of His Beloved Son, our Savior, the Redeemer of the world, the Lamb without blemish who was offered as a sacrifice for all mankind."
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:23 pm Post subject: What are you talking about?
Dan wrote:
The chance of that happening is 24/10 to the fifty-forth power.
Hi Dan, Welcome to this forum. I noticed that your mathematics reference is incorrect. The odds on randomly shuffling a randomly shuffled deck of cards back to "perfect order" is 1 divided by 52x51x50x...x3x2x1. That number is about .12398/(10 to the 67th power).
Dan wrote:
So, what is it that is bringing matter and energy back together?
I didn't notice in your post a single clue about any recognizable physical process that a scientist might understand. What are you referring to? The world is becoming more and more chaotic. There is strife between nations. Evil men and impostors are progressing from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived (2 Timothy 3:13). Disorder is increasing. Isn't it a bit premature to be speaking about the restoration of all things, in a physics context, as if it's going on now?
Sorry about the miscalculation. As for order, I was referring to the fact that life exists, the planets are in motion, and humans are progressing (intellectually). My main point was the atonement, though.
Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Second Law of Thermodynamics and the Atonement
dan wrote:
I was recently doing some studies on the Second Law of Therodynamics and its Gospel applications, and I came across some interesting information. We all know that the natural progression of all energy and matter is from an organized state to one of disorder (entropy);
For a closed system. The Earth is not a closed system. It doesn't even approximate a closed system because vast amounts of energy enter the Earth's atmosphere via the sun.
Take away the Sun, the Earth will closely approximate a closed system - and I guarantee you given enough time without any sun all forms of life on Earth will disappear.
Quote:
yet life exists.
Because of the light from the Sun.
There are only two explanations for the existence of our universe and life in it. 1) An outside force (call it God) must have acted upon ther energy, or 2) Mere chance. Atheists opt for the latter of the two options without a moments hesitation, but statistics paint an interesting picture.
Quote:
Imagine you are walking down the street and you spot a deck of well used cards sitting on the ground. Now imagine that you find them to be in perfect order. What would you assume? Would you assume that someone put them in order intentionally, or would you assume that they were randomly shuffled into perfect order? It would be ludicrous to believe they were shuffled into order. The chance of that happening is 24/10 to the fifty-forth power. Utterly preposterous; and yet, the chances that this universe was created by chance is incalculable.
Imagine you are walking down the street and run into 8*10^67 decks of cards. It shouldn't be surprising if you find one of the decks in perfect order.
There could be a preposterously large number of universes in existence or that have existed. Like the deck of cards, given enough different, randomly created Universes, eventually one will be suitable for life. And it should come as no surprise that that's the one we're in.
Quote:
So, what is it that is bringing matter and energy back together? What could possibly be reconciling all this?
First, my original calculations were correct, since there are four different suits, which throws a wrench into the whole "1 x 2 x 3" idea. Secondly, the large number of cards is a fallacy. Considering the amount of matter calculated to exist in the universe, my analogy fits better. Yes, if you had that many decks of cards lying around one may be in order, but that was exactly my point: there aren't that many decks lying around, and the matter in the universe has already been calculated into those odds, meaning there's only one deck. Gravity. Wow. I'll have to write that one down. How could I have overlooked gravity? It's all so simple now...Gravity does not change the fact that matter progresses from a state of order to disorder. Entropy does not ignore gravity.
Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject:
dan wrote:
First, my original calculations were correct, since there are four different suits, which throws a wrench into the whole "1 x 2 x 3" idea.
There are 52 distinct cards. There are n! ways to order n distinct objects. Therefore the chances of finding n distinct objects in a particular order is 1/n!
Quote:
Secondly, the large number of cards is a fallacy. Considering the amount of matter calculated to exist in the universe, my analogy fits better. Yes, if you had that many decks of cards lying around one may be in order, but that was exactly my point: there aren't that many decks lying around, and the matter in the universe has already been calculated into those odds, meaning there's only one deck.
There could be multiple universes existing at one time. Quatum physics suggests that perhaps for every quantum "decision" the universe splits in two. Which means there could be an insanely large number of different universes.
Or - there could be one universe that has "rebirths" - such as a big cruch followed by a big bang - and each time it rebirths the laws of physics could be different. If that's the case - given infinite time - eventually you'll get to a universe that can sustain life.
You're completely neglecting the possibility of an existence of multitudes of universes - perhaps even a continuum of universes. You can't just assume that the universe as we see it now is all that exists.
Quote:
Gravity. Wow. I'll have to write that one down. How could I have overlooked gravity?
I don't know why you didn't think of it. You asked what it is that brings matter and energy together - most of the objects in the universe are held together by energy.
Quote:
It's all so simple now...Gravity does not change the fact that matter progresses from a state of order to disorder.
...in a closed system.
The Earth is NOT a closed system.
A closed system is one which has no external sources of energy - the Earth does, namely, the SUN.
If the Earth WERE a CLOSED system, I guarantee you it could not support life.
Quote:
Entropy does not ignore gravity.
Yes, but you're ignoring the fact that the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies ONLY TO CLOSED SYSTEMS.
If you take the solar system itself as being - for all intents and purposes - closed - since the light from distant stars is nothing compared to the Sun - the total entropy in the Solar System will increase - while entropy decreases on the Earth, it increases by an even larger amount in the Sun, netting an overall increase in entropy for the closed Solar system.
EVEN IF life did violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that wouldn't mean that there is a God - it would only mean the 2nd law of thermodynamics is WRONG!
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