No. I haven't read that book. Does that disqualify me from commenting on it? My firm conviction is that if it doesn't champion, defend or support the substantial ideas that are contained in my basic outline of the book of Revelation, then it must be of limited worth.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:48 am Post subject:
Hi Eugene
Jon Paulien is a Revelation scholar who has been studying the book for over 30 years. Whether it agrees with you or not I think it is worth reading. I can't say how it relates to your view as I have not read yours yet (I plan to do so).
I would like to read Ranko Stefanovic's Revelation book as he is the leading scholar in the Adventist church on Revelation. I doubt it is the same SDA apologetic version we've all seen but a more exegetical explanation.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 65 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject:
guibox wrote:
I would like to read Ranko Stefanovic's Revelation book as he is the leading scholar in the Adventist church on Revelation. I doubt it is the same SDA apologetic version we've all seen but a more exegetical explanation.
I would too. I understand Jon Paulien wrote the Foreword to Stefanovic's book.
By all means folks, read those books; and when you're ready to announce how Adventist scholars have unraveled the greatest mystery in the book of Revelation, I'll want to hear from you.
The historicist scholar George Eldon Ladd says that the three cycles of judgment—seven seals, seven trumpets and seven last plagues—is the greatest mystery in the book.
I am currently reading "Revelation of Jesus Christ" by Stefanovic. So when I am finished I can compare it to your outline of Revelation. I find so far that he plans to take a slight modification of Paulien and Strand's general outline with several structural understandings:
A. The book is divided into three major portions, each introduced with a vision of Jesus. These general sections are chapts. 1-3, then 4-11, then 12 through the end. The statement of John about showing what is now and shortly to come is the basis of dividing the work into two sections, those in the present time of John, and those dealing with later times (after 4:1 which seems to fit John's intention well enough.). He notes that 12 starts an apocalyptic section making a new segment. Also he notes the transition from daily sanctuary imagery to the holy place imagery beginning in chapter 11, making chapters 11-14 the central part of a chiastic structure, and the highlight of the book.
B. He also says that the latter two parts of the book are divided into sections covering the church history from Jesus' ascension (he sees chapters 4 and 5 of revelation as Jesus' coronation that coincided with the pouring out of the Spirit), to the end of time in the first section, and events dealing with the end of time in the second.
C. Therefore, he has postulated that the transition to day of atonement imagery indicates that the time period being discussed is the end of time. Consequently everything from 11 on is at the end of time, and everything before that is either (chap 1-3) dealing with John's time, or (4-10) dealing with events from the whole christian time period (from Jesus ascension on).
In doing this he is attempting a more scholarly version of what Wilson (mentioned in the Daniel thread) also tried to do with his jubilee cycles. That is he is trying to make a cutoff of when you apply literal and prophetic timeperiods....he hasn't come right out and said it yet, but that appears to be the point.
So in other words, we are apparently headed to a more or less traditional SDA interpretation with a bit more research done into it, research on the OT allusions, cultural allusions and nt allustions in the book, and repackaged as a now exegetical approach.
My thinking at this point is to truly get an exegetical approach it will have to come from someone who is not at the seminary steeped in all the ideas that they hold. But hey, everyone has their bias.
I so far have found some of the insights into structure helpful. It is true that he does take details from the text and seems to bring out much of what John was going for. So in this I commend him. My big question is could he REALLY divorce himself from traditional sda interpretation if the exegetical analysis called for it. That is one I will have to finish the book to find out. Either it won't call for it, or he will do so....or won't .
It is not a bad text for reviewing some of the sda attempts at structuring Revelation, so if nothing else it will be interesting to compare to Eugene's structure which I hope to read soon.
I think when I get to heaven I will really have to ask if in fact people intentionally placed chiastic structues in nearly everything, or if scholars just need something to comment on. Because some of them seem quite far fetched. I will say he at least found a good deal of similar language to back his chiastic structure..but I wonder if someone hoping to find one anywhere couldn't do the same.
Edit:
Since you asked how they unravel the mystery of the cycles of 7, he would view the seals and trumpets as covering the christian era, but the plagues as being an end time fulfillment. This is due to his understanding of the day of atonement imagery indicating last day events.
Now ....he didn't say yet whether he thought they were failed scenarios...but I kind of gather that he is not heading that direction.
Last edited by tall73 on Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Actually, though out of order, having not read the Daniel portion, I just read your outline of the book of Revelation. It's alternative scenarios interpretation does answer some of the difficultires of a recapitulative explanation. I will have to read the Daniel offering and go back to re-read some of the particulars.
However, one question that I would have is this: you state that the 7 seals have direct parallels to the olivet discourse..and in saying this you are not alone. However, they also have direct allusions to the covenant curses and blessings outlined in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and fulfilled throughout the old testament in regards to the Israelites. Since part of your thesis is that the conditional prophecies are an extension of the conditional elements of much of OT prophecy, how do you interpret the covenant curses and blessing allusions?
For my own part it seems that you could add that Israel was in fact supposed to be the first scenario, welcoming the messiah, fulfilling the OT conditional prophecies, but just as the covenental curses and blessings were visited upon them as redemptive warnings, and finally as judgment, they are now being poured out on the entire world, and particularly the church who have
a. broken covanent with God
b. failed to bring to completion their respective scenario to this point.
This would essentially make the covenant curses and blessings,(and their later amplification by the prophets) which were redemptive warnings in essence, parallel to the messages to the churches in Asia when in danger of blowing their own scenario.
I would be interested to see your thoughts on this.
And I might move up my timetable for reading your daniel book. Now to convert it to palm format....I seem to have more spare moments to read that way.
(incidentally, do you mind if, after I convert it, if I post the file so you can utilize it?)
As a side note the OT allusions in Rev 12 are so strong that it is undeniable that the Christ event is in mind. The woman is the people of God: References to the 12 stars and the sun and the moon conjur visions of Joseph's dream etc., while a woman was used in many prophetic references as either a loyal or apostate people of God. Here it would be seen as the people of God particlarly the Israelites who were intended to bring about their own scenario.
It is also clear that the child is Jesus: The child, being a male child, and with a direct reference to the messianic prophecy of Psalm 2, along with the imagery of an ascension to heaven seems quite clearly enough to be indicating Jesus.
Also it is undeniable that the early church anticipated Jesus return in their time, thought it was the end of time, and really saw no reason for things to continue long since the coming, sacrifice and ascension of Jesus fulfilled all that needed to be in their mind. Though there are hints in Peter and Paul's writings that they began toward the end of their life to realize that their generation would not see its fulfillment, and in fact, it might be a bit. This may simply mean that they understood the failure of their scenario....
Anyway, I haven't digested it all, and am still planning to read the Daniel book, but so far interesting ideas.
Finally..do you know of any one really good source that clearly outlines all the OT allusions in Revelation? Because that would be great fun to read through.
Well the main reason I used to use the other reader is that I had a non rechargable battery operated palmm105. It was a pain to resync the whole database by serial port since I have a greek nt, a bible, etc. So by using the smaller program I saved time. Also it could take any web page and convert it to usable palm documents, rather than having to first encode to pdf's.
But now I am using a kyocera smartphone and I don't have to reload it often because I just recharge it. So the upshot is I loaded the palm reader and the book.
Anyway since it is a ways to the church I was preaching in today I started reading on the way down and had the wife read some more on the way back.
I have always accepted the conditionality of the prophecies to Israel. It seems clear this has been a staple of SDA teaching for years. The whole concept of spiritual Israel is quite certainly presented throughout the scriptures. Of course most people are much more comfortable attributing a conditional nature to past prophecies than current ones. But so far I have to say I have quite agreed with everything. I find my mind racing on ahead to all the implications and applications which flow from the initial presupposition and it really does make sense of a lot of the various passages.
It is also nice to read a book that deals with the whole of scriptures in a non-apologetic way that does not resort to putting the fulfillment after the rapture etc.
Of course the real details of the plan will be seen in the application of the method to Daniel's text, and I look forward to that. But so far I am enjoying the book quite a bit!
Incidentally, I noticed you quoted Roger Lucas early on in the book. I took Revelation from him in college before he went back to pastoring. I found that he often had some good insights.
Since part of your thesis is that the conditional prophecies are an extension of the conditional elements of much of OT prophecy, how do you interpret the covenant curses and blessing allusions?
From Revelation's extensive use of allusions from everywhere, I believe that Revelation teaches that everything is going to be fulfilled. "In the Revelation all the books of the Bible meet and end" (EGW, The Acts of the Apostles, page 585). I don't have a particular interpretation of the covenant curses and blessing allusions in Rev. 6. I don't see any parallel between the seals and the messages to the churches in Asia.
Is every allusion to be interpreted? Apparently most scholars don't think so. I don't know of any text that compiles a significant number of the OT allusions in Revelation. Is there informative content in Revelation's apocalyptic style? Yes, but the whole of Revelation is more than the sum of separate fragments. Pictures are just collections of pixels but recognition makes sense of patterns. Structure assembles pieces. I view the practice of Adventist scholars that oversell the search for an interpretation to every direct allusion in Revelation, while ignoring large-scale structures, and then comment on the whole, to be extraordinarily foolhardy.
It's difficult to unravel an artist's meaning by studying individual dots.
I don't deny that there could be a clear meaning to the covenant curses and blessing allusions in Rev. 6. There is meaning in brush strokes and canvas. Consider the parallels between the book of Enoch and Revelation 9:1 & Revelation 20:1. What do you make out of that?
Enoch 86:1-2
And again I saw with mine eyes as I slept, and I saw the heaven above, and behold a star fell from heaven.
Revelation 9:1
I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth.
Enoch 88:1-3
And I saw one of those four who had come forth first, and he seized that first star which had fallen from the heaven, and bound it hand and foot and cast it into an abyss: now that abyss was narrow and deep, and horrible and dark. ... And as I was beholding in the vision, lo, one of those four who had come forth stoned (them) from heaven, and gathered and took all the great stars whose privy members were like those of horses, and bound them all hand and foot, and cast them in an abyss of the earth.
Revelation 20:1-2
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
QUESTION: Why do you think God appropriated the exact same style, words and form of a popular Jewish novel for the revelation that He gave to His servant John?
THESIS: Not only do all truly prophetic books meet and end in the Apocalypse but God is also saying that all the apocryphal books are fulfilled there as well! Revelation is truly the end of everything.
I agree on most points, certainly the overarching structure is key, but...you you get a picture of the overall by the sum of the passages, and finding their individual themes. The context, closest to the passage is more important than the overall structure to understanding the text itself.
If he puts in OT allusions it is clearly because he intends to suggest something. It shows intent. By your method, taking the obvious meaning from the grammar in context, it seems that you have to take every bit of meaning that you can find that he intentionally put there.
I am not saying by the way that it changes the overall picture. I am just wondering why it is so clearly there.
In fact, if the parallels to the Olivet discourse are important, and you hold that that discourse was a case of conditional prophecy, were not the covenant curses clearly that too? It must mean something is all I am getting at. Something earth shattering? Who knows.
Since we are using artistic analogies, an artists presents a painting knowing that his critics will tear it apart. Is this because they don't like the overall picture? Not at all. It is because they can help him refine the overall picture, honing this part, reshaping this one, until all parts are right. Every detail is important. Not all details are EQUALLY important I suppose, but if your method is to interpret the author's meaning, and how the audience would understand it at the time, then you can't ignore it when he puts something in that he assumes they know and will apply to the overall meaning.
Certainly if you cannot comprehend the meaning of enough of the dots, you can't make out the piece as a whole. Once you have most of them in hand, the overall structure may indeed be a useful tool to conjecture about tough passages. But knowing the overall structure and the general message should not mean that we have no interest in the particulars when he had enough interest to include them.
As for the book of Enoch, yes, he uses several so called apocryphal works, as you mentioned, and is not the only Bible writer to do so. But in order to understan that whole allusion I have to
a. Review the book of Enoch
b. Review how it was used there, and what the point was.
There is some assumption that his readers were familiar with it, which I am not overly so. I have read it...but been a long time. His readers must have had some knowledge of it because he felt comfortable quoting it. It is also of course quoted in Jude. Perhaps it had something of a wide circulation at the time.
That is why I would like a source of all the allusions so that I can plumb out the meaning in each one over time. I think it would be fun and instructive. But, I like you haven't seen one so I guess I will just have to pull out as many as I can find. It could make a fun thread though. List every allusion you know of to the OT, NT and intertestamental, etc. works by chapter.
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