Joined: 29 Aug 2003 Posts: 136 Location: JAMAICA, WEST INDIES
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:05 am Post subject: WHAT BEST PROVES MRS. WHITE BECAME TRINITARIAN!!
WHAT BEST PROVES THAT MRS WHITE BECAME TRINITARIAN?
Quote:
The Holy Spirit as a third person of the Godhead is unknown in Scripture It is not a…being…. The doctrine of the Trinity can be neither established by logic nor proved from Scriptures…The Scriptures and the Fathers teach one God the Father, and Jesus Christ his Son: but scholastic philosophy has introduced terms [like “third person of the Godhead”] which…do not accord with Scripture. -Michael Serveto, A Spaniard of Aragon
NOW COMPARE MRS. WHITE'S TESTIMONY ON THIS ISSUE!!
Quote:
“The Holy Spirit… is as much a person as God is a person” -E.G. White, Manuscript 66, 1899;Avondale College speech in Australia
“The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: ‘when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin…In describing to His disciples the office of the Holy Spirit, Jesus sought to inspire them with joy…sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third *PERSON of the Godhead…” -E.G. White, Review and Herald, Nov. 19, 1908.
“You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of THE THREE HOLIEST *BEINGS IN HEAVEN, who are able to keep you from falling…When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just *CALL UPON THE THREE GREAT WORTHIES, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength… And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . .” -E.G. White, Manuscript Release, Vol.7, pgs. 267, 268 (Ms 95, 1906, pp. 8-12, 14-17; "Lesson from Romans 15," October 20, 1906.) “…the Spirit, being God [BUT AS A THIRD BEING], knoweth the mind of God; therefore every prayer of ours for the sick, or for other needs, the will of God is regarded." -E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Oct. 3, 1892
INTRODUCTION:
It is interesting that it was in 1892 that Adventism first published trinitarianism through its Pacific Press publishing house, and it was after that event that all the forgoing quotes from Adventism’s E.G. White were written. It is strikingly obvious that the expression, “third person of the godhead” is distinctly a trinitarian expression. Every trinitarian statement of belief (of various Christian denominations) almost every time uses the expression to express trinitarianism. True anti-Trinitarians do not allow it, as seen in the opinions expressed above. The doctrine of the trinity, whatever version, is historically the only one, which freely uses this expression, and thus they are (the doctrine and the expression) closely associated. Arianism, true semi-Arianism, Unitarianism, Judaism, Islam, etc, never, ever uses (or should use) this expression!! Only trinitarianism does!! Honesty and true historical scholarship accepts this undeniable fact!! Also, since the English word “godhead” is of European origin when trinitarianism was dominant during the 13th century, then no anti-Trinitarian has any business using it in the sense of saying, “the third person of the godhead”, since it was Trinitarians who invented this expression. Proof? See below.
*Definitions below are from- Merriam-Webster Online Collegiate Dictionary and www.dictionary.com.
God·head n.
1. Divinity; godhood.
2. Godhead a. The Christian God, especially the Trinity. b. The essential and divine nature of God, regarded abstractly
Main Entry: God·head
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English godhed, from god + -hed -hood; akin to Middle English -hod -hood Date: ***13th century
1 : divine nature or essence : DIVINITY
2 capitalized a : GOD * b : the nature of God especially as existing in three persons. COMMENTS ON THE WORDS-
This last reference is most interesting because it mentions the etymology (origin) of the word “Godhead.” It was never originally in the Bible as “Godhead” but existed only in meaning as, simply translated, “divine nature”. While the word “TRINITY” (in Greek, then Latin) pre-dated, BY MANY YEARS, the origin of the Roman Catholic Church (in the fourth century after Constantine), the word “Godhead” has its origin is in the 13th century. Since Trinitarianism was dominant at that point in Europe, and in the succeeding ages of Christian history, we must respect the ordinary meaning of the word. Only a cultist would redefine words and insist on non-standard meanings (as some sectarian, and anti- Trinitarian Seventh-day Adventists do today, simply because they cannot discount Mrs. White’s use of some words, so they are forced to conveniently re-define words for themselves, to ‘escape’ what they are historically connected with). Consequently, the expression, the “third person of the Godhead” (capitalized or not) is an unmistakable reference to the Holy Spirit as the “Third Person in the Godhead” in a Trinitarian sense. It cannot be proven otherwise, historically or linguistically, that is, using authoritative and unbiased sources. Linguistically, and historically, the phrase “third person of the Godhead” only has meaning for Trinitarians and those who use the word “Godhead” to mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as a group of three divine persons. No anti- Trinitarian has business using it, UNLESS THEY ENGAGE IN DEMONIC TWISTING OF MEANINGS AND WORDS.
CONCLUSION:
All the basic premises, which identify Trinitarianism, are in the writings of Mrs. White, who was alive when her Church started to expunge the previously held semi-Arian and Arian teachings from its ranks, as of 1892 (long before her death).Written anti-Trinitarian expressions among Adventists became significantly less after 1892, and the following pre-1915 sentiments were increasingly appearing on record:
Quote:
“[The Holy Spirit] is one with and sent by the Father, and the Son… He [the Holy Spirit] would make us know His personality, but ever IN LIVING CONNECTION with Christ… Let Him [the Spirit] make you know, beloved, how surprisingly beautiful are the BLENDED PERSONALITIES of our *TRIUNE GOD (!!) manifested by the personal presence of the Holy Ghost.” “Blended Personalities”, Review and Herald, Vol. 77, April 3, 1900, pg. 210
“Seventh-day Adventists [not just myself] believe [now] in ... the Divine *TRINITY. This Trinity consists of the Eternal Father… the Lord Jesus Christ…[and] the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Godhead”F. M. Wilcox (editor of Review and Herald), *Review and Herald, October 9, 1913
Mrs. White, who was so pointed in calling sin, “sin”, and error, “error”, and clearly listed and called by name, or described directly the errors of “Babylon”, would not, could not ignore calling direct attention to what some call the “mother of all heresies” (the trinity), that is, if she saw it as such. However, notice her clear words below, regarding what is the “mother of all heresies”.
Quote:
“No error accepted by the Christian world strikes more boldly against the authority of Heaven, none is more directly opposed to the dictates of reason, none is more pernicious in its results, than the modern doctrine, so rapidly gaining ground, that God’s law is no longer binding upon men [including the Sabbath command]” -E.G. White, Great Controversy, 1911, pg.583
The foregoing is plain for all to see. If trinitarianism broke the first commandment (as declared by some), and was such an error, then Mrs. White would have no choice but refer to it directly. Did she see it as such, or spoke directly against it? NO! The fact is, she never, ever wrote one single line, directly opposed to Trinitarianism, and even after her Church started to publish it openly through its main publishing houses. This fact, coupled with the similarity between her post-1892 expressions and trinitarianism speaks large volumes. And this writer says, Amen!!
FOR MORE EVIDENCE, e.g. on the “of one substance” Trinitarian expression used even by Mrs. White, or the mysterious nature of Christ’s death and resurrection, or the absolute Godhead of Christ despite his voluntary subjection to the Father, or why a belief in an "Eternal Godhead" of "three living Persons" is basic trinitarianism even if certain Trinitarian teachings are rejected, THEN SEE ALL MY POSTS ON THIS CHAT SITE, or:
Call: (876) 317-2526 or 634-2987 or
_________________ Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:56 am Post subject: Hi :)
Hello :)
I received in my email a post from you on the CSDA thread. When I came to read it on the site, it was gone; I assume it was moved or some such thing because it was off topic, if so that is appreciated. In any event, it was apparently a "call to battle" of some kind... I suppose I then should take this time to verify my statement regarding the Adventist pioneers (Mrs. White included). I should also ask that you please refrain from such terms as "ignorant of the facts," it is very unhumble, and does not make conversation easier; especially should the speaker be, in fact, ignorant of a fact or two themselves.
Also, should you wish to go into *scripture* regarding this, which is the foundation of faith (Not the pioneer's writings) please let me know.
As for now, to respond to your quotes.
Most of the quotes you cited rest upon the word "person." I see from your language at the end, that you have previously been made aware that in many cases the word was changed from "person" and "personality" into "Person," capitals added. Mrs. White herself explained what she meant when she used this wording:
Quote:
"The work of the holy Spirit is immeasurably great. It is from this source that power and efficiency come to the worker for God; and the holy Spirit is the comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, November 29, 1892, paragraph 3)
Quote:
"Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent." (Manuscript Releases Volume Fourteen, page 23, paragraph 3)
If Mrs. White became trinitarian before her death in 1915, someone did not notify her son Willie White, who I am sure you are familiar with, as he was very close to his mother. (Ellen often referred to him as "My dear Willie") Please note the date on this next excerpt. He also explains himself, the true Adventist understanding of the word "person," as used of the Spirit.
Quote:
“The statements and the arguments of some of our ministers in their effort to prove that the Holy Spirit was an individual as are God the Father and Christ, the eternal Son, have perplexed me and sometimes they have made me sad. One popular teacher said ‘We may regard Him, (the Holy Spirit) as the fellow who is down here running things.’
“My perplexities were lessened a little when I learned from the dictionary that one of the meanings of personality, was Characteristics. It is stated in such a way that I concluded that there might be personality without bodily form which is possessed by the Father and the Son.
“There are many Scriptures which speak of the Father and the Son and the absence of Scripture making similar reference to the united work of the Father and the Holy Spirit or of Christ and the Holy Spirit, has led me to believe that the spirit without individuality was the representative of the Father and the Son throughout the universe, and it was through the Holy Spirit that they dwell in our hearts and make us one with the Father and with the Son....” (Letter by Willie White, April 30, 1935)
I notice that you listed very few quotes as the "greatest evidence Ellen White became Trinitarian." If you are truly interested in seeking the facts of the matter and not simply validating your own belief, which I pray is the case, please do feel free to take a look at this article; It is a compilation of Trinity quotes from every single Adventist pioneer either I or the author has heard of; Mrs. White included.
Your verses were explained in it, although I did take the time to do that again personally, so it does not appear as if I am simply brushing you off. :)
Also addressed is your somewhat incorrect statement that Mrs. White never condemned the Trinity heresy; I am sure you are familiar with Dr. Kellogg's addition of "Pantheism," which he himself admitted, the entire debate came down to "Is the holy spirit a person," he himself stating that yes, it was. Mrs. White referred to this as the "Alpha of Apostasy."
Another Adventist writer stated that the Omega was the re-adoption of the Trinity doctrine in its full.
Also from the extensive list of blatently anti-Trinitarian quotes on the link above, I would think the argument backfires to a degree; While rebuking Dr. Kellogg for saying the Spirit is a person, no comment was made to the list of every pioneer there was regarding their statements against the Trinity, some terming it as worse than Sunday Sabbath in regard to obstructing the 3 angels messages.
As for your history of words, and your apparent tactic of pre-condemning those who disagree... Please do not do that, it has a tendancy of draining life out of a conversation, and does not give much appearence of earnest truth-seeking. :)
In response to it, however, with all due respect, I find that to be a very weak and shifty argument. It would appear that you have taken one of the 2 different definitions of the word, and declared that because a belief was common then, it then means the word "Godhead" can only mean what most people used it to mean hundreds of years ago.
Sir, are you aware that in England, the country whose language we speak, "Pants" is considered a curse word? The word "Pharmecia," from which "Pharmecy" is clearly derived (And dictionaries back this up) was used in Greek for herbs and plants mixed for sorcery; "Pharmacia" is translated as "Sorcery" every occurance that I am aware of in the new testament. Will you state from this alone that pharmacists are sorcerers and demon worshippers, heretics if they do not agree because of wording?
I am no "fan" or supporter of "modern medicine," but playing with a words initial meaning to condemn or prove a case today is rather double-minded, if you are not willing to do it in every instance.
In any event, should you have an argument or question upon reading the above linked document please get back to me; And moreso if you would wish to please get into the word of God on the matter. I believe Mrs. White was inspired, do not doubt, but "Thus saith the Lord" is the foundation of my faith, not "Thus saith Mrs. White." She was inspired, but as she herself said, she was the lesser light.
Yours in Christ, _________________ - Lucan "Luke" Chartier
Hi Light Fox; welcome to the forum that's dedicated to everything important.
I'm the one who moved gillespie's reply. You'll find it in the Jail forum under the heading Please stop posting such long replies! You'll find many of gillespie's threads in the Jail forum. He seems to have a difficult time obeying rule #4: forum courtesy.
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