Dr. David Berlinski's Judgment that Creationism Isn't Science

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Dr. David Berlinski

	Oct 9 2008, 02:03 PM Post #1
Shubee Newcomer Joined: Sep 29th, 2008 Posts: 6 Group: Members Age: 55 Christian Creationist Richardson, Texas	I'd like to know why the administrators of this site would censor a debate on Dr. David Berlinski's judgment that Creationism isn't science. QUOTE An outspoken critic of evolution, Berlinski is a Senior Fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, a Seattle-based think-tank that is hub of the intelligent design movement. Berlinski shares the movement's disbelief in the evidence for evolution, but does not openly avow intelligent design and describes his relationship with the idea as: "warm but distant. It's the same attitude that I display in public toward my ex-wives." [1] QUOTE He explicitly denied that he's a creationist: "Creationism is, as far as I can tell, an empty doctrine," empty at least of positive evidence for the nature and presence of a Creator-although he finds some of its negative arguments against Darwinism "very good." [2] I hold roughly the same point of view. -------------------- Isn't it amusing that physicists are able to pontificate eloquently about the specific nature of physical reality and believe that they are about to figure out how the universe exploded into existence out of nothingness but are totally confused about fundamental questions in quantum mechanics?

	Oct 9 2008, 06:16 PM Post #2
92g Admin team Joined: Mar 7th, 2005 Posts: 1,398 Group: Admin Team Age: 42 Christian Young Earth Creationist The glorious south	Mr. Berlinski's opinion is not being censored. We try to keep the debate in this Forum civil, and we have plenty of experience with people who have no intention in keeping with the rules they agreed to when signing up. This statement is choked full of comments that are not welcome here: QUOTE As a Millerite Christian, I'm particularly angered by how frequently *fundamentalist Christians malign scientific truth* and the true Christ. Truth that is controversial can't be authenticated using political force or underhanded Gestapo tactics but only through humility, transparency and genuine academic freedom. I believe it's clear that scientific theory is to be vindicated by strong evidence and logical reasoning, not by masterfully manipulating naive public opinion You seem to think you are the 1st True Christian that understands True Science to come through this Forum. Well, that may be, but you are not welcome to publicly insult fellow members in that fashion. Terry -------------------- Rom 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

	Oct 9 2008, 07:05 PM Post #3
Shubee Newcomer Joined: Sep 29th, 2008 Posts: 6 Group: Members Age: 55 Christian Creationist Richardson, Texas	If you only want to debate those who respect the tactics and non-science of the fundamentalists and believe that they are legitimate representatives of Jesus Christ, then please pardon my intrusion. Could you please post a link that answers the challenge from Berlinski and myself that the fundamentalists' alleged proof of God's existence isn't science? -------------------- Isn't it amusing that physicists are able to pontificate eloquently about the specific nature of physical reality and believe that they are about to figure out how the universe exploded into existence out of nothingness but are totally confused about fundamental questions in quantum mechanics?

	Oct 10 2008, 12:06 AM Post #4
ikester7579 Super Moderator Joined: Mar 19th, 2005 From: Florida Posts: 1,743 Group: Super Mod1 Age: 44 Christian Young Earth Creationist formerly admin 3	We find that those who run guilt trips within the body of Christ, and do not respect the authority of a ministry they join, are not the world view that they claim to be. Besides that, a Christian's job is not supposed to be starting a fight of words within a ministry. You have posted 3 times, and I don't see any Christian attitude about them. Signing up under false world views is a bannable offense on this forum (if this is what you have done). This is because any person who comes in lying will continue to lie and we don't need that, nor do we want it. A atheistic-evolutionist Bible scoffer will never give in to any rules of any Christian forum. And because they will question and push every rule, we find it a huge waste of our time trying to explain everything we do. We have other members on this forum who are both believer and non-believers who have no problem with following rules. You coming in here with an attitude makes us suspicious. If you are a Christian, why would you come into a ministry and challenge the ones who run this ministry as if you own this ministry? You do not pay for the www address, You do not volunteer time here to run this ministry. Does not God's word teach you to respect those who run a ministry? Now, if you came in here from a forum that allows fighting, and thought this forum was the same. I can understand. But understand, this forum is here and run under the rules that make the debates as civil as we possibly can. That is what makes this forum different from the norm. So if you think you are going to argue with members, admins, etc... It's not going to happen. We don't allow it from the non-believer's side, and we are not going to allow it from the believer's side either. -------------------- ____________________________ Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. anticreationist debate tactics. Music: Phil Driscoll Crystal Lewis Third day The Martins

	Oct 10 2008, 12:59 PM Post #5
Shubee Newcomer Joined: Sep 29th, 2008 Posts: 6 Group: Members Age: 55 Christian Creationist Richardson, Texas	QUOTE(92g) We try to keep the debate in this Forum civil, and we have plenty of experience with people who have no intention in keeping with the rules they agreed to when signing up. Terry, I believe that I am as civil as Dr. Berlinski is civil. [3]. QUOTE … With all due respect, Mr. Berlinski, there are times reading what you have written when it seems that you are right down there in the gutter with the best of them. You did, after all, refer to Richard Dawkins as - and I quote - “a remarkably reptilian character” …. DB: Did I? Well, mine has been an exercise in defensive slumming. … I see. What really accounts for your hostility to figures such as Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins? … DB: In the case of Daniel Dennett, I think contempt might be a better word than hostility, and indifference a better word still. There are, of course, lots more where he came from - P.Z. Myers, for example, or Eugenie Scott, or Jason Rosenhouse. Throw in Steven Weinberg, just to reach an even number …. … The Nobel Laureate? … DB: None other. … But Dawkins … DB: An interesting case, very louche - fascinating and repellant. Fascinating because like Noam Chomsky he has the strange power effortlessly to command attention. Just possibly both men are descended from a line of simian carnival barkers, great apes who adventitiously found employment at a circus. I really should look at this more closely. Repellent because Dawkins is that depressingly familiar figure - the intellectual fanatic. What is it that he has said? “It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but Iâ€™d rather not consider that)”. Substitute ‘Allahâ€™ for ‘evolution,â€™ and these words might have been uttered by some fanatical Mullah just itching to get busy with a little head-chopping. If he ever gets tired of Oxford, Dawkins could probably find a home at Finsbury Park. [4] Isn't it possible that this forum requires the exact same timorous attitude that Dr. David Berlinski repudiates? [5] QUOTE(92g) You are not welcome to publicly insult fellow members in that fashion. I interpret that to mean that you don't approve of Jesus publicly insulting the religious leaders of his day. -------------------- Isn't it amusing that physicists are able to pontificate eloquently about the specific nature of physical reality and believe that they are about to figure out how the universe exploded into existence out of nothingness but are totally confused about fundamental questions in quantum mechanics?

	Oct 10 2008, 01:12 PM Post #6
Shubee Newcomer Joined: Sep 29th, 2008 Posts: 6 Group: Members Age: 55 Christian Creationist Richardson, Texas	QUOTE(ikester7579) We find that those who run guilt trips within the body of Christ ... So to be very clear about this, do the administrators and moderators of this forum believe it's uncivil and a Antichristian "guilt trip" to conclude and say publicly that the persons who made death threats against Judge Jones and the plaintiffs in the case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District et al were probably fundamentalist Christians [6] and to compare their actions with fundamentalist Muslims that eagerly obey whatever fatwa that might have been uttered by some fanatical Mullah? QUOTE NARRATOR: The question now was, "Could the defense prove that intelligent design is a scientific theory? What evidence could they muster to support this claim?" While the battle in federal court heated up, the atmosphere in Dover had gone from divisive to dangerous. Tammy Kitzmiller, the lead plaintiff in the case, who had a daughter in ninth grade biology class at Dover High School, had been receiving hate mail since the start of the trial. TAMMY KITZMILLER: One letter was pretty disturbing. I think this was the one with the passage that...the last sentence especially: "Madeline Murray was found murdered for taking prayer and Bible reading out of schools, so watch out for a bullet." This was a letter that I made sure my lawyers got a copy of, and it was forwarded to the FBI. ROBERT ESHBACH: Anywhere you turned we were getting attacked. I mean, the people in the community were attacking us in the newspapers, people in our own profession were attacking us saying, you know, "What are you guys doing in Dover? Why are you letting this happen?" People in the community were calling us atheists, which was a bit offensive to two of us in the department, because two of us happened to be sons and daughters of ministers. [7] QUOTE After the ruling was handed down, some pundits immediately attacked it, notably Bill O'Reilly on Fox News accusing Jones of being a fascist and an activist judge. Casey Luskin and Jonathan Witt of the Discovery Institute, and activist Phyllis Schlafly, have leveled similar charges.[3] Jones also received death threats as a result of which he and his family were given around-the-clock federal protection.[4] [8] QUOTE(ikester7579) Besides that, a Christian's job is not supposed to be starting a fight of words within a ministry. Millerite Christians teach that John the Baptist was a Christian. How warmly did he treat the loyal opposition? QUOTE But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?" Matthew 3:7 (New International Version) QUOTE(ikester7579) Signing up under false world views is a bannable offense on this forum... any person who comes in lying will continue to lie and we don't need that, nor do we want it. I have proclaimed the truth. The issue that I have raised is important. I am a Millerite Christian and a six-day quantum creationist. QUOTE(ikester7579) We have other members on this forum who are both believer and non-believers who have no problem with following rules. You coming in here with an attitude makes us suspicious. I read the forum rules carefully before posting and didn't notice any hint that repudiates the public rebukes supported by Scripture or that having an attitude is forbidden. QUOTE(ikester7579) If you are a Christian, why would you come into a ministry and challenge the ones who run this ministry Why did Jesus publicly challenge the religious leaders of his day? QUOTE(ikester7579) ... as if you own this ministry? You do not pay for the www address, You do not volunteer time here to run this ministry. A workman is worthy of his hire. Matthew 10:10. If you believe that my informed opinion doesn't contribute to this forum, and that my spirited defense of Bible-based Christian ethics is Antichristian and has no relevance to the creation-evolution debate and should be suppressed, including quantum creationism, then I expect that I will be banned almost immediately. Do you expect that someone will answer my question in post #3? QUOTE(ikester7579) Does not God's word teach you to respect those who run a ministry? Are you telling me that I have to respect pseudo-Christian fundamentalism? I believe that the Bible teaches the exact opposite. "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the [fundamentalists], you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20. -------------------- Isn't it amusing that physicists are able to pontificate eloquently about the specific nature of physical reality and believe that they are about to figure out how the universe exploded into existence out of nothingness but are totally confused about fundamental questions in quantum mechanics?

	Oct 10 2008, 01:18 PM Post #7
Shubee Newcomer Joined: Sep 29th, 2008 Posts: 6 Group: Members Age: 55 Christian Creationist Richardson, Texas	QUOTE(ikester7579) This forum is here and run under the rules that make the debates as civil as we possibly can. I truly and sincerely believe that the Darwinists and Fundamentalists are equally unscientific, immoral and extreme and that I have been as civil as I could possibly be. -------------------- Isn't it amusing that physicists are able to pontificate eloquently about the specific nature of physical reality and believe that they are about to figure out how the universe exploded into existence out of nothingness but are totally confused about fundamental questions in quantum mechanics?

Forum response to Shubee:

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