CRUCIAL KEYS TO PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING!!

gillespie9669

KEYS FOR PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 1

By Derrick Gillespie.

In understanding the prophetic truths of Daniel and the Revelation, the following ‘keys’ should always be on the same bunch in one’s keychain of understanding (as it were). One by one these “keys” will serve to open the main doors to truth locked in God’s ancient panorama of prophecy; His Word. They will also serve as guards to lock the door against the invading enemy of error and heresy!!

THE KEYS:

1.First Key: - The image of Daniel 2 and the vision of the four beasts in Daniel 7 are parallel in the scope of world powers they cover. There are (apart from futurism, which predicts a future anti-Christ power) two main contending schools of thought about these earthly powers in Daniel, and the sequence of their succession:

[a] preterism – the view that the powers started with Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon and ended with Greece and Antiochus IV as the “little horn” or antichrist power, which imposed himself on the Jews, their religion and their way of life. Thus the coming of the “stone kingdom” of God was scheduled to have arrived during the Grecian period of world domination. This is a minority view among some in Adventism today.

[b] historicism- the view that the powers started with Babylon, but ends with Rome (in its pagan and papal continuum) with its Anti-Christ spirit; a spirit that has been active in different ways/contexts from the time of Christ to the modern time when an “image” to this power (seen in Rev. 13) will be eventually resurrected in the United States of America (the undisputed world power presently).This however has not fully happened yet (despite America has fulfilled the ASDA understanding of prophecy of being the modern world power), and behooves to ever look out for the signs of imminent fulfillment. This has been, and forever will be the official SDA viewpoint.

OBSERVATIONS:

Generally speaking, it is very easy to see which of these views has a firmer foundation in Scripture.

[a] If the worldview of Daniel ended with Greece and Antiochus IV, then preterists do have a difficulty explaining WHEN the “stone kingdom” of the Messiah arrived in this scheme (whether in conception, or birth, or final glorious establishment). It is easy to see, FROM THE HISTORICIST VIEWPOINT, that John the Baptist heralded the Messianic arrival of its king, during the Roman period, and Jesus Himself had as His main message, “THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND” (IT HAD NOT YET ARRIVED BEFORE HIS ARRIVAL), and this gospel of Jesus was also preached during the Roman period; NOT the Grecian period!! This kingdom will be gloriously established (after its conception at his first coming) when He returns the second time; even though that event seems protracted (and even that was prophecied in the parables of Jesus).

[b] If the iron kingdom, or the parallel fourth beast was supposed to be Greek related (preterism), then the proponents of this view do have even more difficulty to explain, firstly, how or why one kingdom was represented by two metals, and two beasts; highly unprecedented in prophetic symbol. Secondly they have even exceedingly greater difficulty explaining away Jesus’ declaration in Matt. 24:15 of the TRUE “abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel the prophet” (in at least Daniel 7, 8, 9, and 11) finding fulfillment under the Roman period of world domination; not the Grecian period. This desolation was to “destroy” the sanctuary, the city, and the nation itself. This found no FULL or literal fulfillment under the Greeks, despite Antiochus harassed the Jews for a time, BUT ALL WERE FULFILLED UNDER THE ROMANS!!
Very weak an argument it is, to proclaim that Jesus’ Matt.24: 15 declaration was just a “midrash” style use of O.T. Scripture (similar to Matthew’s), because it shockingly overlooks that Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit, and Matthew and all other Apostles who freely applied Old Testament Scriptures where under the inspiration of the Spirit of Jesus Himself. That argument is therefore simply steeped in intellectual pride (and shows lack of faith in the Divine inspiration of the New Testament writers; they were more than just ‘scholars’ of the Talmud), and is a ‘cop out’ argument found in desperation because Jesus’ powerful Matt. 24:15 declaration cuts across the grain of the preteristic viewpoint.

[c] Preterists would also have difficulty explaining why the Roman power in Revelation 13 (the Apocalypse, chapter 13) was also a non-descript beast (as the fourth beast in Daniel 7), and could only be described as having the features of the world powers before it (lion, bear, and leopard). It was also interesting that it had “seven heads”- a total of the “four” on the leopard beast, and the ones on the other three, including the fourth. They would also have to explain why, if the sequence of Daniel’s four beast kingdoms ended with Greece, why John the Revelator never got a different symbol totally unrelated to the beasts of Daniel (to introduce this new power), that is, if there was not a natural sequence of these powers right down to Rome; with their features (“life”) prolonged in the final beast. It is more than abundantly clear, therefore, that these world powers are sequential right down to Rome, and not contemporaneous despite the human powers are prolonged IN THE LIFE OF THE FOURTH BEAST (Rev. 13).

THE REALITY IS THAT THE HISTORICIST VIEW OF ADVENTISM DOES HAVE LESS DIFFICULTY ADDRESSING THESE CONSIDERATIONS!!

[Ponder the use of this first “key”, while you await my next presentation in this matter. God bless.]
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Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)

gillespie9669 · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:55 pm Post subject:

KEYS TO PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 2

By Derrick Gillespie.

2. Second Key: -The Revelation of the New Testament forms a prophetic continuum of the symbolic themes presented in the book of Daniel. The fact that the Roman fourth beast in Daniel 7 is evidently re-described in Revelation 12,13, and 17 (having a composite of “seven heads” and “ten horns” and the features of the beasts before it) is a clear indicator of this. It is interesting too that the Roman power is further presented in symbol as an adulterous “woman” sitting on it as “scarlet beast”, BUT DOING THE SAME WORK AS THE “LITTLE HORN” ROMAN POWER IN DANIEL 7 AND 8.
Internal evidence in the Bible itself suggests that the Church of God is a woman in symbol, hence an adulterous woman on a seven-headed and ten-horned beast would be a fallen Church during the Roman period, but one which is presented as being supported by the human, but royal power of Rome (“scarlet” being evidently the symbol of royalty). It is absolutely clear that ALL this was strikingly fulfilled in Rome becoming Christian, and later ruling the Old World through its new religious power, the Papacy. However, since the power base of the Old World has shifted to the New World, then this shift of focus was also anticipated in prophecy, by way of the “lamb like beast” in Revelation 13- the United States!! It is interesting that when it eventually will “speak as a dragon” (like the fourth beast) it is just seen Biblically as an “image”(imitation) to the Roman beast power. Thus Rome’s spirit and power will still live on in its “image”. America’s political power structure as a world power is now firmly laid (that no one can deny), and only time will tell about it eventually speaking as a “dragon”; similar to the religious persecuting power of Rome (pagan and papal).
I am glad that when, over a hundred years ago, Seventh-day Adventism was seemingly the lone voice predicting America’s rise to world power, there was not even the least evidence that this was going to be so, except a faith in the historicist viewpoint of the second beast in Rev. 13.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DISSENTING VOICES ABOUT THE USE OF THIS SECOND KEY. THE EVIDENCE, BOTH IN THE BIBLE AND THE WORLD, IS TOO COMPELLING FOR ME IGNORING THIS PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING!!

But a question now arises- If the return of Jesus has been ever imminent since the first century A.D., and the Revelation was about things that was to “SOON come to pass”, how do we explain these themes which have covered many centuries? That would be a fair question, and deserves an answer. See you in the next presentation, in which I will present the Biblical answer to this question, and the third “key” to understanding the prophetic panorama of God’s word.
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Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)

Eduardo Martínez Rancaño · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:11 pm Post subject:

How fascinating! Let me see if I have understood correctly. You are saying that if we start by admitting that Daniel 2 and 7 are unconditional forecasts that take us to the Roman period then we’ll encounter difficulties if we try to explain what those chapters mean using a different viewpoint. How very compelling indeed! Congratulations on your eisegetical insight! How foolish of me to think that in order to understand Daniel one had to read that book! You see, I was under the mistaken idea that Daniel 11 might throw some light about the meaning of other passages in that book. In my ignorance, I had even reached the conclusion that when Dan.11:21 speaks of “a contemptible person” it actually meant one person! What was I thinking?! If I had known your method, I could have avoided countless hours of study. I wonder, is a third part of this wonderful set of interpretive keys necessary at all? After all, the key ring might become too heavy. In any case, if you do treat us with more of your goodies, can you please suggest some recent standard book of history, or encyclopaedia (like the Britannica, the Encarta or something like that), that sheds some further light on the composite power “Pagan Rome plus Papal Rome” as one political entity characterized by its “Babylonishness”? By the way, do you also have a ready-made compendium of the whole Bible so that I can stop reading it? I’m asking this because, as you probably know, it’s a large book, and some of its passages are far from clear. However, endowed with that magnificent, unbeatable logic of yours, you can probably abridge the many gaps of knowledge that befuddle less-privileged minds than yours. That would be really helpful! So, by all means, enlighten us. And, in case you graciously accede to publicize your acumen on these arcane matters, don’t neglect clarifying some of these issues:

Dan.2 seems to say that, shortly before being struck by the rock, the fourth kingdom would be partly strong and partly weak. Please, explain how this was fulfilled in the days of Augustus or Tiberius. I was under the probably wrong impression that Rome was a very powerful empire. Perhaps the clue might lie in the existence of some people affected by rickets back then? On the other hand, if I misread you and the rock hasn’t really arrived yet, please, explain in what sense whatever the fourth kingdom is today can be thought of as a strong empire. Is it something in Europe? If so, what exactly is it? The European Union? The Vatican? Rome was the superpower of its era. Is today’s superpower in Europe? How strange nobody in Europe has noticed!
What is the nature of the ten horns in Dan.7? Are they ten rulers of the Roman empire before the rock of Dan.2 struck? If the rock struck in the first century AD, who were those ten rulers? Legionaries perhaps? Tribunes? Consuls? I know this much: They couldn’t possibly be emperors, as there were only two (Augustus and Tiberius) by the time Jesus was killed. On the other hand, perhaps the ten horns were to appear after the rock struck in the first century, or perhaps before it strikes in the future. If so, who can these ten rulers of this undying Roman empire be? Perhaps the presidents of the Italian Republic? On the other hand, if these horns are not rulers, but rather regions of the Roman Empire, please, explain which specific ten regions are involved. It would be nice if you could explain which three regions were “uprooted” by the eleventh horn. Naturally, you could also say that the ten horns are ten kingdoms which succeed the fourth kingdom after its downfall. If so, what Bible passage mentions the downfall of the fourth kingdom on occasion of the appearance of the ten horns? What is the identity of the ten kingdoms? Which three kingdoms were uprooted by the eleventh “kingdom”? And, if the eleven horns come into existence after the downfall of the fourth kingdom, how come the fourth kingdom is not destroyed when it is replaced by the horns but rather when the little horn is condemned, centuries later, by Heaven?
The parallels between the little horn in Dan.8 and the king of the north in Dan.11 seem to imply that they both refer to the same entity. Therefore, if the little horn is, indeed, Rome, then the king of the north must be Rome, too. If so, what exactly is the last king of the south? Saudi Arabia? Tunisia? Lybia? South Africa? Australia? Daniel says that after some setbacks the king of the north would go back to his land. Does that mean Italy? When did this take place? When it says the king of the north will plant its tent between the seas, near the glorious mountain (11:45), does it mean between the Tyrrhenian and the Adriatic? Which one is the glorious mountain? The Vatican hill? The Mont Blanc?

Several more questions come to mind, but I'm somewhat confused by the continental shift you introduced with your second key. I may have to digest such a concept, since it looks more strained than Wegener's theories and plate tectonics. I'll keep thinking and pondering the flamboyant historicist lucubrations.

gillespie9669 · Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject:

Before moving on to the next prophetic “key” I will candidly admit that it is true that more and more Adventists are adopting the preteristic, and even the futuristic viewpoint (only God knows how many eventually will). The preteristic viewpoint I have already defined in brief in my previous post. Futurism, however, is based on transporting much of the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation into a period future to our time when there is expected a post-secret-rapture Tribulation period, the rise of an Anti-Christ figure during a seven year period, but sitting in the re-built temple in literal Jerusalem, fromwhere he will rule and corrupt the world (while enforcing the “mark of the beast”). You can quickly see that this viewpoint (like preterism) also ignores the natural succession of Rome as the “fourth beast” in Daniel's prophetic scheme of things (as already presented), and the subsequent appearance of the TRUE “little horn” power or the TRUE Anti- Christ in the work of the Papacy throughout history since Rome ruled the world in Jesus’ time. This view also ignores the fact that that Paul’s prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 (evidently quoting Daniel 11:36-39) was about the Roman power ALREADY active in Paul’s time when he wrote 2 Thess. in A.D. 51 (see again Matt. 24:15) , and that the “mystery of iniquity” was already at work (2 Thess. 2:7), laying the foundation for the appearance of the Papacy to sit in the spiritual “temple” of the Church (since the Jewish temple no longer existed then when the Papacy arose), and to proclaim itself as representing God, and thus effectively take away (or at least try to take away) Jesus’ priestly ministry, his Biblical truths, and his Sabbath, etc. Incidentally, notice that Jesus went against the first century Jewish interpretation of Daniel in presenting Rome as the real fulfillers of the "abomination of desolation" (Matt. 24:15), INSTEAD OF ANTIOCHUS!! Thus the special appeal for the reader of Matthew to understand this matter presented by Jesus Himself. It was NOT the usual interpretation of Daniel of either the general Jewish Talmudic scholars, or Josephus for instance, or the writer of the Maccabees.

gillespie9669 · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:22 am Post subject:

KEYS FOR PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 3

By Derrick Gillespie.

Third Key: - The book of Revelation continues the main themes in Daniel, and takes them beyond the first century A.D., thus effectively invalidating preterism, which in principle limits apocalyptic themes to the first century.

Preterism cannot be fully supported from the internal evidence of Scripture. Revelation was given as an open book (unsealed) and can serve as valuable key to unlock the sealed book of Daniel. A careful comparison of the major themes in the books of Daniel and Revelation turns up the surprising fact that Revelation does not support the preterist’s interpretation of Daniel. Many of the events described in visions in the book of Daniel are said to be yet in the future from the standpoint of Revelation. The opening words indicate with certitude that the book of Revelation is a description of events that "must soon take place," that is, events beginning in, or after the year 96 A.D. (when John wrote it) and stretching on to the Second Advent and the establishment of God's eternal kingdom.

Let me digress from my main point a little to say that how soon this “soon” would be no one knew then (not even N.T. Bible writers), but Christians were moved to always watch for the imminent fulfillment of prophecy and the return of Christ. That is to always be the healthy attitude mode of all Christians in every century (imitating the mode of militant soldiers and prudent watchmen). Thus the reason for the New Testament themes of the imminent return of Christ; since “no man knows (knew then or even now) the day or the hour”. The parables of Jesus indicated his desire for all to ever be ready, but to “occupy till he comes”, that is, to have a balanced perspective on life. Paul highlighted this “balanced perspective” when he warned that this “day” (the Second Advent) could not come until certain prophecies are fulfilled (2 Thess. 2), but still felt (in his human limitations to see the length of the future) that they would be fulfilled soon in his time. That is perfectly understandable. We today have the privilege of hindsight, which is “twenty-twenty vision” they say. However, despite we are still much closer to the fulfillment of all prophecies, WE STILL DON’T KNOW MUCH LONGER WE HAVE. However death is an ever-present enemy and can usher anyone immediately into eternity, since the next waking moment at the resurrection of the dead, if even hundreds of years after, will seem to him (the departed) like just a fleeting second. Never forget that. Now back to my main point.

Revelation does not focus on the past, but, since John’s time, on the immediate and (now we know after the fact) a long-range future beginning in 96 A.D. The only part of Revelation that deals with events prior to 96 A.D. is the first part of chapter 12, which describes the casting out of Satan from heaven and the birth of Christ to serve as a backdrop for the years of warfare between the dragon and the woman (the Church). This being the case then everything from the book of Revelation must find its fulfillment subsequent to A.D. 96. And remember A.D. 96 was only four years from the close of the first century.

Immediately it becomes clear that SEVERAL portions of the book of Daniel that re-appear in Revelation were yet for the future at the time that John wrote the book, thus they could not have been interpreted according to the preterist view, but only according to historicism. For example, it is significant that the first three beasts of the Daniel 7 vision—the lion, the bear and the leopard—while not appearing anywhere as distinct symbolic animals in Revelation, the fourth beast—the dragon (non-descript)—does appear in various symbolic forms, but in a composite form depicting features of the beasts before it. This is simply due to the fact that the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece were already in the past at the time Revelation was written, but Rome was around at time. Likewise, neither the ram, nor the he-goat of Daniel 8 re-appear in Revelation, because the empires of Medo-Persia and Greece had met their demise long before the end of the first century, but it is however highly significant that the description in detail of the SIMILAR activities of the Roman “little horn” or anti-Christ, and the SIMILAR symbolic length of its rule/dominance are found in both apocalyptic books (Dan 7:8, 19-25; 8:9-14; 11:29-35; Rev 12:13-16; 13:1-10; chaps 17 and 18). If Revelation is a book of events that were shortly to come to pass, then the fulfillment of the little horn/anti-Christ prophecy could not have been prior to A.D. 96! The inspired interpretation and expansion of Daniel's prophecies by the apostle John provides the death-knell of preterism.
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Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)

Eduardo Martínez Rancaño · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:08 am Post subject: The death knell of preterism??!!

Just a short comment. John's composite beast in the book of Revelation contains descriptive elements, taken from Daniel, that were once applied to kingdoms that were in operation in Old Testament times. According to historicist claims, the last of such Daniellic kingdoms was the Roman Empire, whereas interpreters opposing historicism view the latest kingdom as the Seleucid empire. Historicists like Mr. Gillespie claim that John's presentation of the Roman Empire as a composite beast in Revelation invalidates the preterist interpretation of Daniel. Can anyone explain the logic of that contention? Since John is reapplying OT symbols to the Roman Empire and those symbols once were used for Babylon, Persia and Macedonia, how can John's usage invalidate preterism, which admits that the first three "world powers" in Daniel are, precisely, Babylon, Persia and Macedonia? If anything, the problem falls on top of historicism, since it is forced to re-apply to Rome a symbol that Daniel, if we judge by the first three kingdoms, must have originally applied to something else, something other than Rome!

Eduardo Martínez Rancaño

According to inspiration, a particular portion of Daniel was to remain sealed until the "time of the end," that is, the time when its fulfilment would enable understanding. However, the book of Revelation is definitely said to be unsealed because most, if not all, of its predictions were to occur soon. No matter how you are willing to interpret "soon," by relativizing time, that adverb can never be made to mean the opposite of soon. If the book of Revelation, leaning heavily as it does on Daniel, is about things that were to happen soon at the time they were written, how is it possible to maintain that the book of Daniel contained a particular prediction that would carry us to the 19th century? How can that be? If that were true, and early Christians had been historicists, they would have had a case for scolding John, who included a reference to the parousia in the message to Sardis (Rev.3:3). Let me see, if they had been historicists back then they might have said something like:

"Wait a minute! We won't be fooled by your wrong eschatology. We know that the parousia can't possibly take place before such and such prophecies in Daniel are fulfilled, hundreds of years from now. So, don't threaten us idly. Before the parousia comes, other "church eras," later than Sardis, are to go by. The parousia can only occur after the 'era' of Laodicea."

That would have been a very good historicist stand, but, fortunately, it was never presented. I guess there were very few heretics back then!

gillespie9669 · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:17 am Post subject:

KEYS FOR PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 4

Fourth Key:- The declaration of Jesus that He would come “quickly” and “soon” over nineteen hundred years ago is not failed prophecy, but was simply a wise safeguard against careless complacency on the part of Christians (his watchful servants). What better way do you know of to ever keep anyone on their toes, but an uncertainty of an event which ever keeps them watchful?

Hear the words of Jesus Himself in Revelation below:

gillespie9669 · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:04 pm Post subject:

KEYS FOR PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 5
By Derrick Gillespie.

Fifth Key: - The apocalyptic theme of world powers impacting unfavorably or (in the case of Persia) favorably on the people of God began in the book of Daniel with literal Babylon, but ends in the Revelation with spiritual Babylon!!

This prophetic key will do much to open blinded eyes about the role of *Rome as the power which is so similar to literal Babylon, but Satan working through it has helped it to “morph” into a more formidable and insidious religio-political power, able to do, and has done more harm to God’s people than literal Babylon was ever able to do to the Jews. Why? We certainly should expect more ingenuity from Satan as we progressively draw closer to the end of time.

Any cursory reading of the symbols used to indicate world powers in the book of Revelation will indicate undeniably that it focuses primarily on the Roman power, which:
[1] Stood up against Jesus while He was on earth (even killing him eventually),

[2] Destroyed the people of his race (Jews), their temple, city and nation, and

[3] Later opposed and killed in large numbers his Christian followers (also the seed of Abraham- Gal. 3:29) both as pagan Rome and even more so as Papal Rome.

What is however even more interesting is that this was the SAME political system which “metamorphosed” (changed) into and prophetically headed/heads up (as the “mother of harlots”, or fallen churches in Christendom) a deceptive religio-political power called spiritual or figurative “Babylon”(after Rome became Christian). It has been able to do more damage to the spiritual temple (the Church) of God, as a “desolating” power than any other power could. Why? An enemy power can do more harm acting insidiously or beguilingly from the inside than it came from the outside. That is certainly what the unity of Church and the Roman state has done since Constantine; a system fittingly called “Babylon”!! As a result, for many centuries the true Church had to retreat into the spiritual ‘wilderness’ as it were, until the dawn of the Reformation.

The similarities between ancient Babylon and Rome (as the figurative Babylon) as they relate (d) to the people of God are astounding:

1.Both ancient Babylon and Rome (later spiritual Babylon) destroyed the uity of the nation, city and temple of God; Rome later did the same to the spiritual temple and nation of the Church in the spiritual sense

2.Both ancient Babylon and Rome (both pagan and papal)
literally led away many captives from among God’s people

3.Both ancient Babylon and Rome “desolated” the people of God and his temple (Rome however has gone a step further after desolating literal Israel, to establish a residing (“sitting”) abomination, the Papal office, in the spiritual temple, the Church- 2 Thess. 2:3, 4 quoted from Daniel 11:36-39)

4.Both Babylon and Rome were the seat of pagan religions which have impacted significantly on religions of much of the world, and on the people of God

5.Both ancient Babylon and Rome had its leader converted to the true God, but later leaders fell into apostasy!!

What is most interesting is that the spiritual “Babylon” created after Rome had become Christian is likened unto apostate Judaism, which was punished in A.D. 70. How do I know this? In Revelation 18:4 (after the same system was earlier presented as the harlot riding the back of the Roman “scarlet” or royal beast power in Rev. 17) spiritual Babylon is presented in just the same way Jesus warned His followers to escape from Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when Israel would be punished for finally rejecting its Messiah (see Matthew 24:15, 16). The true people of God were/are called to come out and flee before punishment falls. The call is “come out of her MY PEOPLE”. This clearly suggests that spiritual Babylon today has God’s people in it (as apostate Jerusalem did in A.D. 66 before it fell in A.D. 70), and even has spiritual captives in it (as ancient Babylon did) and they must flee to the mountain of true religion just before God punishes all false religion. This has been sounded more and more since the Christian Reformation, and is another indicator of the nearness of the TRUE “end of the world”!!

Today, with the United States of America as the seat of the greatest modern world power, it is interesting that it was predicted by S.D.A.s over one hundred years ago that IT WOULD BE THE MODERN WORLD’S SUPERPOWER (as the “lamblike beast power”- Rev. 13:11-18), when there was not much societal evidence that this would be so, except by way of an historicist understanding of Rev. 13 by Seventh-day Adventists. It is even more striking that it is the seat of the greatest variety of pagan and Christian religion, and is expected to be the “image” (imitation) of the Roman beast power in the future. It has the greatest concentration of the various Churches of Christendom along with pagan spiritualism, new age philosophy and the like, and thus cannot help but being seen as part of the great system of spiritual Babylon (religious confusion), which was started long ago by the Roman power.

Finally, it is an idea worth considering that the Christian religion and the power base of the U.S.A. was originally exported from Europe which was part of the Old World where the power of the Roman beast (pagan and papal) was once concentrated. One therefore wonders if it is not really true that the Roman beast really did “give life unto the image of the [first] beast” of Revelation 13? Only time will tell about how much more may be connected to this compelling evidence about America and its mimicry of papal Rome as a religio-political power.

There is indeed more prophecy in store waiting to be fulfilled, and thus we await, with bated breath, their fulfillment to prove which understanding, the historicist or futurist view, is correctly fulfilled in keeping with true apocalyptic understanding. However what is evident is that preterism has no place whatsoever in this business of spiritual Babylon described after A.D 96. This must be so since it already culminated ALL its apocalyptic themes in A.D. 70 before John was even able to write more fully about spiritual Babylon as in Revelation 18:4. John’s written testimony about the symbol of spiritual Babylon probably illuminates, more than any other writing, Isaiah’s predictions in Isaiah 47, which perfectly befits (by application, not original fulfillment) the Roman Church and its later daughter churches of Christendom.

Closing Thoughts (Appendix):

As a sort of appendage to my presentation about the fifth prophetic key, let me say a few things about the Papacy’s role as the head of spiritual Babylon; the same system started by the Roman Church!! Quoted from a self-written article entitled: " A Strange God in Apostate Christianity" See the full article among my posts (gillespie9669) on this message board.

gillespie9669 · Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:48 am Post subject:

KEYS FOR PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 6

Sixth Key: - Kingdoms and world powers in Daniel are presented SYMBOLICALLY or ‘representationally’ as single individuals, but the kingdoms, by general rule, are NOT literal individuals by interpretation or in fulfillment.

It is easily proven from the apocalyptic record that:

1.“Beasts” are “kingdoms” or mega-empires, which rule (d) much of the world, and

2.“Horns” also represent kingdoms or powers, but more so either the stages/phases of a kingdom in focus, or sometimes they represent the initial division and sometimes the later divisions of a larger “beast” kingdom.

What is absolutely clear however is that ALL kingdoms (whether as “beasts” or “horns”) in Daniel have been presented symbolically as individual “kings”, rulers, or individual persons, BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT WHOLE KINGDOMS WERE BEING REPRESENTED BIBLICALLY. This understanding will clear up many misconceptions of some, and should serve to prevent others from arriving at wrong interpretations.

Let us review the record:

In the metallic image in Daniel 2, which represented sequential world powers from Babylon onwards, one individual was presented as representing an entire kingdom. Nebuchadnezzar was told, “thou [one man] art the head of gold”, BUT HE SIMPLY STOOD FOR THE ENTIRE BABYLONIAN KINGDOM HE HEADED UP AT THE TIME, WITH OTHER BABYLONIAN LEADERS COMING AFTER HIM. He was specifically told that “another kingdom” (of silver) would rise after him (not another literal leader in Babylon itself):

Dan 2:39 And after thee [representing your kingdom] shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. (A.S.V.)

From the parallel vision of “beasts” in Daniel 7 we learn that four world empires were to appear in sequence, BUT NOTICE CAREFULLY THEY TOO WERE CALLED “FOUR KINGS” [individuals], AND THIS WAS SAID EVEN AT THE JUNCTURE WHEN THE SYMBOLS WERE BEING INTERPRETED (Daniel 7):

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings [individuals again] that shall arise out of the earth.

However, it is clear that what was meant was “kingdoms”, because as the EXPLANATION continued it used the word that (in this context of apocalyptic world powers and kingdoms) is obviously interchangeable with “king”, that is, “kingdom” (see Daniel 7:23). THUS THE CLEAR RULE WS ESTABLISHED THAT THE “BEASTS” WERE LITERAL MEGA-KINGDOMS ARRIVING SEQUENTIALLY TO EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE THE METALS OF THE IMAGE; THEY WERE NOT LITERAL INDIVIDUALS!! AND NO ONE KINGDOM IN ANY ONE VISION WAS REPRESENTED BY MORE THAN ONE BEAST OR MORE THAN ONE METAL AT ANY TIME!!

Even in the book of Revelation, we notice that the “beast” powers (Rev. 12, 13, and 17) are referred to with the individual pronouns of “he”, “his”, “him”, and, in the case of the “woman” representing a false Church having worldwide political power, as “she”, “her”, etc.- thus carrying over the same theme from Daniel, which represented powers/systems and kingdoms by way of individuals. Paul in 2 Thessalonians likewise spoke of the “man of sin”; a system of false religion represented by the pronouns “he” and “himself”!! Need I say more?

THE “LITTLE HORN” CONTROVERSY

The problem arises however when SYMBOLIC “horns” are looked at. It is claimed by many that the “little horn” of Daniel 8 was not a new and distinct kingdom but only one single person, the literal Greek king Antiochus IV, because the Bible called the “little horn” a “king” during the explanation stage in Daniel 8. But the foregoing rule clearly is applicable here too, where a “horn” or symbolic “king” represents not merely a literal king/leader, but a kingdom. Appealing to the word “king” being used for the little horn during the explanation phase, in order to make it mean that it is a literal individual is illogical if one looks carefully at Daniel 7:17, 23. Although 8:23 identifies the little horn as a “king,” there are compelling reasons for recognizing it as a kingdom.

The four preceding horns on the “he-goat” kingdom were said to be kingdoms (8:22) coming after Greece’s first phase of world power, so we would expect them to be succeeded by another kingdom. The two horns on the Persian ram represented the symbolic “kings of Media and Persia” (8:20); that is, the dynastic houses that ruled those nations—not merely and literally two single kings/leaders.

The only place where traditionally MOST AGREE, outside and inside Adventism, that an entire “horn” is identified as a single person is the “notable horn” of the Grecian he-goat (8:21) being Alexander the Great. HOWEVER THIS WRITER CONTENDS THAT EVEN ADVENTISM (AMONG OTHER CHRISTIANS) SHOULD ENDEAVOR TO ADVANCE IN TRUTH AS NEW LIGHT IS DISCOVERED.

*This writer (who is an independent thinker) proposes that THIS VIEW NEEDS REVISION, because the general rule that a horn is a kingdom need not be broken, or compromised, as it concerns Alexander the Great. Why? If the he-goat in Daniel 8 represented the entire course of the Macedonian-Greek world domination, THEN THE “HORNS” MUST REPRESENT THE SUCCESSIVE PHASES OF THAT KINGDOMS ACTIVITY. THUS THE FIRST "NOTABLE HORN", BEING IT’S “FIRST KING" SIMPLY SHOULD MEAN THE FIRST UNDIVIDED PHASE OF THAT KINGDOM, WHICH JUST HAPPENED TO BE REALIZED UNDER ONE LITERAL LEADER, ALEXANDER (its founder)!
Alexander was therefore just representative of the first or initial phase of the he-goat’s (Greece’s) power.

As the Strong’s lexicon clearly shows concerning the words, “first king” (for the “notable horn”), the word “first” (Hebrew, “rishon”) means ‘first in rank’, and it also means ‘first in time’!! And thus if the word “king”, as given among other symbols, means kingdom, then the he-goat’s first “horn”, or Greece’s “first king” simply means the first phase of Greece’s world dominion, and also the most notable phase (highest ranking or most effective phase) of it’s history.

IF THIS POSITION IS TAKEN THEN ALL DIFFICULTIES VANISH, AND NO PRECEDENCE IS SET FOR SOME TO ASSUME THAT ANTIOCHUS, ONE PERSON, COULD ALSO LITERALLY BE AN ENTIRE HORN!!!
Thus in the closing moments of the he-goats (Greece’s) world domination (Daniel 8:23), “out of” (Daniel 8:9) EITHER OR BOTH one of the directions (“four winds”) or the “horns”, where its four divided kingdoms (horns) had spread themselves, came a new, and distinct kingdom, *Rome. Why was it not just an individual of Greece, or another Greek kingdom?

Firstly, because Antiochus was just eighth in the line of over 25 leaders within one horn (the Seleucid horn), and he did not arrive in/towards the ‘end’ (“in the latter time”) of (notice carefully) “their kingdom” (i.e. the “four kingdoms”). See Daniel 8:23. He was not a leader of a separate kingdom of Greece either, as the new (fifth) individual horn might have suggested, because he was (like all Seleucid leaders before and after him) just an inheritor of the domain IN ONE HORN; the Seleucid horn! Also, the new and “little horn” was not another Greek kingdom because after the four divided kingdoms of Greece, the he-goat HAD NO OTHER PHASE OF POWER.

Rome (not Antiochus) rose to power (after this second and final divided phase of Grecian world domination) by descending on the Greeks from the North West or the Macedonian direction of the divided he-goat kingdom, that is, from the direction of Italy. Check any map to see that both Macedonia and Italy are in the same general direction. Rome thus appeared to the prophet Daniel to be coming out of the he-goat as a horn, BECAUSE TOWARDS THE END OF THE FOUR DIVIDED KINDOMS IT CLEARLY, AND PROGRESSIVELY ABSORBED GREECE’S TERRITORIES, AS IT MOVED FROM THE NORTH WEST (ITALY) THROUGH MACEDONIA, AND WAXED EXCEEDINGLY GREAT TOWARDS THE SOUTH, THE EAST, AND EVEN TOWARDS THE LAND OF GOD’S PEOPLE (“THE PLEASANT LAND”), CONQUERING AND DESTROYING EVERYTHING IN IT’S PATH!!

It is worthy of note that there is nothing in Bible prophecy, which establishes a rule that the directions of conquest of a beast or horn power must be in the same sequence that they were presented. Thus it is no argument indeed that Rome conquered in a different directional sequence than that mentioned in Daniel 8. The fact is it had those directions were also included in its directions of conquest.

Finally following two points are also worthy of note:

1.One hardly ever hears of the ‘Babylo-Persian’ civilization, or the ‘Greco-Persian’ culture, however Rome was so Greek in its foundation that history experts regularly refer to the Greco-Roman civilization. Thus Rome really did seem to rise out of, and in many ways preserved the Grecian civilization it conquered. Even in the symbol of Rome as the first beast in Revelation 13 we realize that the beast is first and foremost like unto a leopard (or Greece), that is, apart from the beast having the four heads of the leopard, more of its body appeared as a leopard in vision (like Greece's symbol) than any other beast before it, thus showing its predominantly Grecian roots. This is highly significant, and does much to explain why it is JUSTIFIABLY seen initially by Daniel as a “little horn” also growing out of the he-goat symbol in Daniel 8. See the very revealing words of the 2003 Encarta Encyclopedia below (from its article on “the Roman Empire”):

Eugene Shubert

Derrick

Isn't it the height of Biblical ignorance for you to pontificate at such great length about keys of prophetic understanding for the books of Daniel and Revelation when you don't understand Daniel and Revelation?

gillespie9669 · Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:42 am Post subject:

Dear Eugene,
As administrator of this forum, and one claiming to be a prophet (obviously close to God), I would expect you to, instead of trying to belittle me (and my image), show me why I don't understand Daniel and the Revelation. Show me where I am wrong so far. In fact, isn't that what you are promoting-- healthy dialogue I mean; NOT PERSONAL ATTACKS!! And don't move this response of mine from the appropriate thread. Be honorable in not misleading your readers (it is called bearing false witness when you present things to your forum users out of context, that is altered or moved to give another impression). But you should know that, shouldn't you? God bless.
_________________
Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)

gillespie9669 · Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:51 am Post subject:

7 KEYS FOR PROPHETIC UNDERSTANDING
Part 7

Seventh Key: -
Daniel 11 differs considerably in style of presentation from the other prophetic chapters of Daniel (e.g. 2, 7,and 8) that are filled with *symbols, and is the only chapter where it is probable more than the others that the career of Antiochus IV is presented in detail, though it is not very clear exactly how many verses are devoted to him, and exactly where those verses begin, and end (that is forever in dispute).

But, you may ask, how come I am now saying this, when I earlier protested that “kings” mean, by general rule in prophetic symbol in Daniel, “kingdoms”. Of course that is so, but there are always exceptions. In Daniel 11, an angel is obviously giving a panorama of several LITERAL “kings”, not so much symbolic “kings” because there is every indication that, for the most part, the use of the word “kings” in that chapter means simply that; literal “kings” or literal leaders (and not so much symbolic ones). Why this change of style? No one really knows for sure, but the fact that this was the case cannot be denied.
You may even further wonder whether I am not now retracting my earlier statements that the “little horn” of Daniel 7 and 8 was not “Antiochus. No need to wonder, because that I am not!!
The SDA Bible Commentary nicely summarizes my view on this particular matter in the following way (commenting on Daniel chapter 11):

Eduardo Martínez Rancaño

After reading the above detailed instructions, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ve never come across the doors that these “keys” are supposed to unlock. Where did you say those doors were?

You see, the Bible has never been locked. It’s God’s revelation to mankind. Although a few of its passages are difficult to understand because of the cultural difference between us and the civilization that existed at the time they were written, the Bible is not a collection of riddles that someone must ferret out through sheer ingenuity. Most definitely, the Bible is not a crossword puzzle, but rather a collection of easily intelligible messages that are vital for man’s well-being.

This consideration alone causes me to conclude that the artifacts presented so far are not keys at all. They look more like picklocks or similar prowling devices, and the very reason for the existence of such “instruments” is dark indeed. Only a pilferer would use them. As for the master key to Dan.11 that we had been promised (or should I say threatened with?), the evidence seems to suggest that this new skeleton key (in more senses than one) is made of an altogether different material relative to the others presented so far. The previous picklocks were made of “historicismium,” this one, however, is made of an alloy with trace amounts of an unstable isotope of “preterismium.” Caution should be exercised when handling this alloy. Not only does it interfere with the performance of picklocks made of pure “historicismium,” but it causes the corrosion of the locks used by both systems. Unconfirmed rumours say it can also affect the sanity of the unsuspecting fellow who tries to botch with them.
Laughing