God is evil

Judas · apologist for Satan Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 3

Imagine if you will a purely hypothetical situation involving two prospective parents. This circumstance takes place several years in the distant furture. During this period scientists have vastly grown in their knowledge of genetics and their effect on human development. It has gotten to the point where scientists can predict with 100% accuracy the outcome of a human beings life before that human ever steps foot in the world. They are able to accomplish this by means of looking into the gene pools of both parents beforehand and determining the outcome of their prospective child's life. In other words these scientists have become prevoyant to a degree. They now have the ability to see the future before it takes place.
As responsible parents they decide that they would like a glimpse into their child's future before they concieve it. They decide to visit with the scientists to see how their child will turn out. The scientists tell them that should they create this child that the child will grow up to become a mass murderer. This is obviously sad news to them. However, they so insanely want this child that they're willing to disregard the sound warning of these scientists and go ahead and create this child. To further ward off any possible grievous circumstances surrounding the child's development they decide to throw more love and attention towards this child than ever before.
They have the child as intended and raise it accordingly. At age 5 the child begins to show aggressive behavior and a blatant disregard of their authority. At age 13 the child commits it's first robbery inspite of all the love and attention that they gave to it growing up. At age 17 he commits his first murder. At age 25 he blows up a federal building killing more than 1000 in the fiasco. To their chagrin they realize that the prevoyance of the scientists was indeed dead on.
Now granted this situation is purely hypothetical and highly unlikely. For one scientists just don't posses this kind of prevoyance. However for the sake of argument and comparison later, assume that the above situation does exist. Let's now analyze this situation. I'm going to ask you the reader a pointed question to provoke thought. Who is responsible for the destruction that this child commited, the parents or the child? Well, obviously the child is. He did this of his own free will. The parents certainly were not there holding a gun to his head forcing him to commit these horrible crimes. In fact, our parents gave him love and attention to avert the behavior the scientists had warned about. Our parents did all they could to avoid this situation or did they?
Pointing the finger at the child is easy. However, rather than solely throwing guilt upon the child let's put the finger where it really belongs, upon the parents! They knew the consequences of their actions beforehand. The prevoyant scientists warned them ahead of time. It makes no difference how much love the parents through at this child nor that the child had his own free will. The greater burden of this child's guilt rests entirely with the parents. They could have avoided the carnage that this child commited by listening to the scientists who were never wrong. If the parents had had no knowledge of the future then I could see them being exonerated of guilt. After all they did give love and attention to the child. However, this is not the case. The parents share the guilt of their child because of their knowledge of the future and due to the fact that they could have avoided said future by not having the child.
Here's another way of looking at it if you fail to realize why the parents are at fault. Assume you are the president of the U.S. You have knoweldge of a terrorist plan to be executed on U.S. soil This act will involve the countless deaths of many people. However, this act can be avoided if not stopped altogether. You as president have the means and ability to avoid this act by making a few calls to enforcement agencies, etc. Rather than doing so though you decide to let it happen for your own political gain. The act occurs, people die, misery insues. Are you responsible for the deaths and misery of the people under your rule? Of course you are! You had foreknowledge of the act as well as a means to avoid it yet you did not. Sure, the terrorists are responsible for the crime but so are you because of your unwillingness to avoid the situation.
Now what does all this have to do with God? God, we're told in the bible is prevoyant, omnicient, all powerful, etc. God has the ability to not only see the future just like our scientists but has the power to prevent evil things. Rather than get into a discussion right now of why God allows suffering and evil to exist let's begin with one of God's first created beings. His name is Lucifer. Lucifer we're told in the bible is responsible for all the evils that persist in our world. In fact, Jesus calls him a murderer."Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do: he was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth..." John 8:44. Yet, this was not always the case. Elsewhere in the bible we are told about Lucifer's state before his fall. Ezekial 28:15, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created...." This is speaking about Lucifer before his fall from grace. For other references to Lucifer you may read Ezekial 28:15-17, Isaiah 14:12-14 to get a better picture of what happened to Lucifer.
Apparently God did not create a devil. He created a beautiful angel perfect in every way. This alone would seem to exonerate God of any charges. In fact many christians use these texts to do just that. However, take a closer look at what's going on here. God has knowledge of the future because He is all powerful and prevoyant. That means that God must have known Lucifer's course beforehand. To further prove that He knew this was going to happen look at this scripture. Revelation 13:8 "....of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." God here already had a plan in place from the very foundation of the world. I humbly submit to you that God knew ahead of time before He even created Lucifer what was going to happen. Now, that brings me to a rather disturbing question. If God knew about what course Lucifer was going to take ahead of time then why create him in the first place? It certainly isn't going to make the universe a better place now is it?
Lucifer's perfect stature upon creation is a mute point given God's prevoyance. Had God not known what Lucifer would eventually do then I could cut Him some slack. This is not the case though. God is just as guilty for all of the woe Satan has perpetrated in the same manner as the two parents above are guilty for bringing a mass murderer into the world. God knew His course of action(creating Lucifer) would lead to evil just as our parents knew that creating their child would bring a mass murderer into the world. God then is responsible for bringing evil into existence because of His prevoyance. In the same way that our parents are responsible for the atrocities their child commited so then is God responsible for the atrocities Lucifer has accomplished. Am I laying all the blame on God? Certainly not. Lucifer has a free will and did as he chose, however, God still had foreknowledge and is not without guilt.
Here's an interesting fact I'd like to throw at you in light of the above discussion. In the bible precedents are given for the nonexistence of certain people. Job 10:19 "I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave." Also, God took the life of Davids infant child thus preventing it from ever coming into existence(see 2Samuel 12:14-18 specifically). In like manner, God could have easily chosen to not create Lucifer. God was willing to do this to certain other beings(David's child) yet, He did not do it in Lucifer's case. Why? Could it be that God had ulterior motives? Did God somehow need Lucifer to exist and eventually rebel in order for His character to be seen in stark contrast? This is certainly a plausible conclusion given that God chose to create Lucifer rather than not. Could it be that God is not so pure and holy as people would like to think He is? Could it be that God's motives are actually selfish in nature? Is God so concerned about looking pretty to the universe that He's willing to sacrifice the well being of others? Rather than resorting to my own accusations though let's let God's own word be His judge.
Let's begin with the story of Job. Ahh, I know what you're thinking. If anything this story will uphold God's character. Okay then, let's summarize Job's story. The bible clearly states that Job was a righteous man who askewed evil. He took care of the poor widows, was generous with his money, sacrificed for his sons and daughters, and served God unswervingly. Satan(Lucifer) of course took note of this. He approached God one day and said in so many words that the reason why Job served God was because God blessed him with much wealth and even placed a protective hedge about him figuratively speaking. You see Satan's insinuation was that Job was only serving God because God was blessing him. Remove these blessings and he will curse you was Satan's gist. Now at this point I want to talk about the ramifications of what was going on here. Satan was not only attacking Job's character but God's as well. God and Job's character was on center stage now. So God said ok Satan I'm placing Job in your hands. You can do anything you want to him as long as you don't take his life. That's when the misery started. Satan's first order of business was destroying Job's wealth. Satan killed Job's cattle, etc. That wasn't enough. Satan then killed ALL of Job's sons and daughters. He wasn't done yet though. Satan then afflicted Job with a nasty disease. Job's best friends didn't even support him during this ordeal but rather they accused him of evil. I'm sure Lucifer may have had a hand in this as well. Job's wife even proved to be unsupportive(curse God and die is what she said I believe). Job was a miserable man indeed but he didn't curse God(he should have, but I'll get to that later). God eventually restored Job's wealth and health in the story. Although Job's sons and daughters were not restored. He was given new sons and daughters. Jobs friends even got rebuked by God for rebuking Job.
Now, let's talk about how this story is used to defend God. First people use this story to show that Satan was behind all the misery in Job's life and not God. In a broader sense it is then extrapolated that Satan is of course responsible for all the evil things in the world. I'm not going to dispute the fact that Satan was the one behind Job's misery. The bible does make it plainly clear that Satan was in fact the perpetrator of most of the evil which befell job. Job then is ultimately exonerated in this story and because in all this he never cursed God. God is also seen to be exonerated in this story as well because He is shown not to be the one responsible for the evil which befell Job. End of story, right? Wait a minute, let's take a closer look at this story with a discerning eye.
Basically here's what is happening. Satan is coming to God with a bet. God not wanting to look wrong in front of the universe because of Satan's dare takes Satan up on this stupid bet that is about to ruin a man's life. I find it appalling that God is willing here to enter into a bet with Satan and why? All so God can look pretty for the universe. God is showing what He is like here. He is so concerned about thwarting Satan's accusation that He is more than willing to turn one of His most trusted servants into nothing more than a chesspiece on a chessboard, an experimental rat in a cage. What's even more appalling is God's treatment of Job during this entire ordeal. You see if you ever read the entire book of Job you will find out that God actually did get involved in the story. Rather than coming to Job during this time of torment and offering comfort what does God do? He does exactly what Job's friends are doing to him. He enters the story in His awesome power and does nothing but continue to belittle Job. If you doubt that what I am saying is true then I challenge you to read the book of Job for yourself. You will see that God uses the same condescending approach towards Job as did his friends.
So what about the part where Job got everything back? Yes, Job eventually had everything returned to him that Satan destroyed well not actually. Job never saw his original sons and daughters again. But, let me point out that this happened only after God was satisfied that He had won His bet with Satan and in the process had totally kicked Job down to the dirt. Shocked? You should be.
God's inhumane treatment of people doesn't stop with the story of Job. Oh no there's much more. Have you ever heard of Ezekial? He is one of God's prophets in the old testament. In Fact, He has an entire book named after him. He does the usual stuff, rebuking people for idolatry, etc. This man was a servant of God. You'd think that God would treat his servants with some dignity but oh no have I got something to tell you. You see God made this poor man eat his food prepared with excrement(feces,etc.) Ezekial 4:11-15, "Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time thou shalt drink. And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung(feces) that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the gentiles, whither I will drive them. Then said I, Ah Lord God! behold my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even til now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abomitable flesh into my mouth. Then He said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung(feces) for man's dung(feces) and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith." This is just plain sick! This is how God treats people. And to think He did this to one of His most trusted prophets! I really don't know how to react to this. Should I laugh about the absurdity of this or should I cry about a tortured man? How would you like it if God appeared to you one day and asked you to visit the toilet not to do your business but rather for a meal?
Did you know that God also treats people like property rather than human beings? It's true. Exodus 21:22,21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall surely be punished. Nothwithstanding if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." God not only condoned slavery but also the abuse of slaves." It's ok to smack them around a bit just as long as you don't kill them. After all they are your money(property). African-Americans or anyone who has ever had to endure slavery should be outraged by this! What's more appalling is the fact that many of the christian slave owners in the South used these very texts to justify their subjugation and abuse of poor African-Americans.
What about women in the bible? I'm sure I can count on one hand the women in the bible who held any real power or positions of authority. Hmmm let's see, 1)Ruth? no, no she was a servant of Boaz and served her purpose by giving him an heir 1) What about Esther? ooh maybe we have one here, she was a queen! uh oh I forgot she was used as a sex object for the king(read the story if you doubt that) 1)Sarah? again another woman who stood below a man called Abraham who by the way had other wives. 1) Bathsheba? oooh another queen who was used as a sex object by King David 1)Miriam?, ahh finally a woman who held some real power. She was Moses' sister and got to lead the children of Israel somewhat. Although God did show what He thought of her by afflicting her with leprosy. 2) Hmm let's see this is quite difficult. I'm straining my brain here trying to think of women in power. Ahh here we go Deborah! Now here is a woman who held some real power she actually got to be a judge of Israel. 3) Mary Magdelene? nah we see what God thinks about her. How convenient that her past as a harlot is mentioned in the bible and her lower position below men is demonstrated best in her stooping to clean Jesus' feet with her hair. 3)Mary mother of Jesus? A fine mother but again below her male couterparts. 3)What about the women involved in Jesus' ministry? Again they were not allowed positions of authority in the church. They settled mostly for background roles behind their male counterparts. 3) Ahh I know! Phillips daughters! Yep they got to be prohetesses. Now, pardon me if I missed someone but let's see, what do we have? 3? Wow, a total of three instances where women held any real authority. Miriam(struck down by God), Deborah(by far the best candidate), and Phillip's daughters whose names we don't even know. It's no surprise to me that this is the case in fact when you read the bible more or less women are treated as property, prizes to be won, and relegated to lower positions if not told to just keep their mouths shut altogether.
Let me give you an example of how women were treated like property, prizes to be won. In the book of Judges chapter 21(read it, it's quite humorous) is a prime example of how women were veiwed. The Israelites not only killed some of their own people but then stole the virgins(there were 400 of them) to give to the tribe of Benjamin so that they'd have wives. It doesn't stop there they then went to Shiloh and waited for some more women to come out and do their dance while men literally hid in bushes jumping out and grabbing these poor women like some old lady's purse. Now let me say that God appears silent on this issue so He may or may not be held accountable. Nonetheless, it is in the bible and no where in the context of the pasage do we hear a denounciation from God about this conduct of His people.
Here's another example of how women were stepped on by both God and man."When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." Deuteronomy 25:11,12. How convenient that the passage talks about the punishment for the woman, yet, nowhere does it discuss the violence the two men were doing. The woman alone is punished. The two men? nothing, absolutely ,nothing is said about their conduct. These were God's very own directives.
1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches:for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under odedience as also saith the law." Thank you God for giving a clearer picture of what you are all about. You see even God is out to suppress the poor women. God and the bible are masogenous. Think about it... who is God? -the Father, Moses(male), Abraham(male), David(male), the apostles(all male), Jesus(male), In fact the majority of most of the biblical figures are male! It's no wonder you see women getting stepped on in the bible.
Changing the subject, let's take another look at a well known scripture. Exodus 20:13, "Thou shall not kill." This is one of the ten commandments. You know what? I like this commandment. I think it is good. I don't believe in murder either. If this commandment is good for me then it must be good for God right? Certainly it would be the utmost hypocrisy for God to be out there commiting murder. Yet, God does exactly that. I'm not just talking about the wicked people who may desperately deserve it. I'm talking about the righteous and young babies who couldn't have possibly done something to warrant such an act.
It does not matter to God that you may be righteous. He kills indiscriminately. Ezekial 21:3,4 "and say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south and to the north." And you thought it was safe to serve God. Why not separate the righteous from the wicked God? Certainly that must be within your power to do so. However, what do we find God doing but threatening destruction upon His own righteous servants.
What about children and infants? How does God treat them? Does He kill them also? Yep. Let's start with the well known story of the exodus from Egypt by the Iraelites. The Egyptians had enslaved the Israelites for a long time. They had even killed some of the first born among the Israelites. They had forced them to do hard labor. Obviously those are wicked deeds. So God visited the Egyptians with plagues the last being the most devastating. God eventually sent His angel of death to take the lives of all the first born males in Egypt. I'm sure many children and infants died during this plague. Now granted what the Egyptians had done to the Iraelites was wrong. But, do two wrongs make a right? How could a 1 year old infant have possibly did something to warrant having it's life taken away? Why not punish those adults who were really responsible for the atrocities? The story doesn't stop there though. In the preceding books following the exodus you find the Israelites going from one city to another totally annihilating all humans including the aged and young. Leave no flesh alive was God's directive. Again possibly these people deserved it. Maybe they were really wicked. But, you can't tell me that the infants/children in those citites were out there commiting wicked deeds. The Israelites performed all of these genecidal acts with the approval of God.
Stop for a minute and put yourself in that time frame. Imagine yourself walking through the streets of say Jericho after the Israelites with God's help destroyed it. Do you see what I see? Look over there lying in a pool of blood is a young 5 year girl. She's been gutted from her privates to her neck. Look over there lying in an overturned crib there's a 5 month old infant with its skull smashed. I apologize for painting such a vivid picture but ,frankly, that is what happened to alot of these cities. Total destruction, children included. The worst atrocities known to man! Again, who was responsible for all this? God.
While we're on the topic of children and infants I have another story you should consider. (see 2Samuel 11 and 12)King David was considered a man after God's own heart. I find the comparison quite accurate and funny in a wierd way. David was a murderer! He killed one of his best friends(Urriah) so that he could sleep with his wife. Now of course God stepped in and sent His prophet Nathan to rebuke David for this vile act. David not only had commited adultery but murder as well. He had even gotten Urriah's wife pregnant. Now, what does God do? God steps in and and kills the the child concieved with Bathsheba(Urriah's wife). The child was innocent! The child had done nothing! David was the one to blame for this. Yet rather than punish David directly, God punishes an innocent child instead. (On a side note and I just can't help but to explore this. What do you think Urriah will do to David in heaven? Especially when Urriah sees David running around with his wife and learns about what David did to him. Will Urriah run to David with his arms wide open and say thank you for killing me and sleeping with my wife! How do you think Urriah is going to feel when he sees David sitting next to God on His throne? What an insult! Furthermore, How do you think King Saul will feel when he stands with the wicked and sees David, a murderer AND adulterer, sitting next to God. Even King Saul was not guily of adultery. His crime was of course refusing to murder everyone that God had told him to murder. So God removed him from being king and appointed a better murderer(David) to the throne) I'm sorry about that little digression but I just couldn't help but point out some inconsistences.
I've spent alot of time in the old Testament so now I'd like to move onto the new tesament. Let's look at Jesus now. Certainly if anyone was ever perfect, it would be Jesus. I mean c'mon, didn't He heal the sick, stand up for the poor and rebuke the evil hypocrites of His time? There's no way I'm gonna bring up filth on Him. All right, let's take a look at Jesus briefly.
Do you know who John the Baptist is? Certainly you've heard of him. He was a servant of God. This man was a stalwart follower of God who stood steadfastly in the face of the hypocrisy of his times. John was the one who actually pointed out Jesus as being the Lamb of God. John was the one who baptised Christ for His public ministry. John was fearless. Unfortunately, this ultimately led to John's arrest. John ended up in prison for rebuking Herod for taking his brother's wife in marriage. While in prison John no doubt got depressed and began to question Jesus' ministry. So, he sent some of his disciples to question Jesus about His ministry. Just imagine for a second how John must have felt. Here he was in some lonely, dark dungeon with no one to talk to except some of his disciples who stopped by infrequently. At the same time, he is hearing reports about how Jesus is out partying with publicans and sinners. Here is a man of God who had preached righteousness and condemned sin left alone in some lonely cell to apparently die. So what does John do but send two of his disciples to ask Jesus about His ministry. What kind of response did John receive from Jesus about His conduct? "Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Luke 7:22,23.
Jesus did not even have the time of day to even goto John personally and explain Himself. In fact, His response to John was of a rebuking nature. Jesus should have taken time for John. After all, John had taken time for Him. He didn't do so. He left this man alone in some prison without visiting him. John eventually was killed by Herod. Let your own word be your judge then God. "I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Matthew 25:43
This is not the only time God didn't even live up to His own word. There's another story I'd like to talk about. Let's look at Judas Iscariot's story. Judas Iscariot, a name that will go down in infamy, a name to be loathed a despised. Most people hate this man. After all wasn't he the one who betrayed Christ? I find it quite interesting the similarity between this man and Lucifer. Both were close to God. Both betrayed Him in some way. Let's look at his story through his eyes:

Judas Iscariot
I walked daily with Jesus. I joined with Jesus in the hopes of a grand earthly kingdom but so did the other eleven. When I saw Him choosing His pupils I figured I'd do my best to get in so maybe I'd be one of the first to be honored. When I first met Jesus, he really didn't welcome me as He had done for His other disciples. In fact, I was greeted by Him rather coldly. I remember His first words to me vivdly."Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the son of man hath no where to lay his head." It was embarrassing to me to say the least to be publicly humiliated like that in front of the other eleven pupils. I didn't feel warmely welcomed but I let it pass.
I remember feeling a sense of pride as Jesus allowed me to handle our meager purse which we used to help the poor with. Things were going great. I can still remember how fond I was growing of this Jesus. Daily I watched Him heal the sick and stand up for the poor. However, I began to notice something about Jesus. He showed quite a bit of favoritism. He was always with His three favorites, Peter, James, and John. Why was He showing favoritism to these three? Isn't God supposed to be impartial? This to say the least made me a bit angry.
Hell, I wasn't without fault. I mean I was no saint. I liked money ALOT. Every now and then when we'd had a particularly stressfull day I'd take a little, just a little, money from our purse and reward myself with some trinket that I saw at the local market. But, we all were in faulty in some way. Peter was always sticking his foot in his mouth. John and James did nothing but fuss and fight with each other. Poor Thomas was always scared of something, timid and shy. Phillip just didn't have much faith in anything. Was I any worse than them? I don't think so. I mean granted I was a little self absorbed but who isn't? All of the pupils wanted to be first. I was no exception.
That's when things began to go downhill for me. Jesus started talking about how one of us was going to betray Him. Everytime He did this He would look directly at me with His cold searching eyes. Why was Jesus singling me out? I had done nothing but show Him the respect that a Master deserves. Texts of scripture seemed to form my mind. It was as if some Divine influence was placing them there. I recall the text that most vividly was placed in my mind. Something about thirty pieces of silver and a potters field or something to that effect. I began to feel depressed as if some deep dark cloud was resting over my head.
Everytime He would do a roll call my name was always last. How do you think this made me feel? I felt like the ugly kid who always got picked last for the game. I slipped further into depression. The only thing that seemed to relieve me was buying things with some of the money I had taken from our purse. I'm sure Jesus knew about it.Not once though did He come privately to me and say hey what's the matter? Is there anything troubling you? Not once did He pull me aside like he always did with Peter to admonish me for taking some money from the purse. The signs were obvious. I was crying out for help! He only seemed to make matters worse by ignoring me.
My ship was sinking fast but strangely Jesus never came to me. He had all the time in the world for Peter, James and John but where was He when I needed Him? It was as if He wanted no needed for me to do something dark and sinister. I felt as if He was subtely leading me by His actions down a path that was bringing me misery. I began to question the motives of Jesus. I even thought I'd amend my ways and stop stealing and actually let the money in the purse be used for what it was for, the poor.
It happened at a local party. Jesus had been invited to some rich rulers house. I believe his name was Simon. I and a few other diciples tagged along. Everything was going as usual. Jesus spoke a few words about His kingdom., something about forgiveness and then it happened. I saw her enter. I knew who she was. She was a harlot who had been tormented by demons kinda like I was feeling. I noticed something in her hand as she knelt down behind Jesus at His feet. She was holding a very expensive box of perfume. I wondered what she was going to do with it. That's when she broke the box open and began to rub this expensive ointment all over Jesus' feet as tears streamed down her face. Jesus didn't seem to care and this began to bother me. I thought to myself, "Why is Jesus letting this perfume goto waste like this? Certainly this perfume could have served a better purpose. For instance, it could have been sold and the money given to the poor." I figured to myself that I was on the right track with the proper reasoning and that's when it happened. Jesus turned and looked directly at me and then publicly humiliated me in front of everyone by rebuking me. I was furious! I left the party controlling my anger as best I could.
Don't be to surprised by what I did next. I secretly went straight to the Chief priests who I knew hated Jesus and sought for some way to get even with this Jesus. That's when it occured to me that I could make a little money on the side as well as get even with Jesus. All I'd really need to do was turn Jesus over to these guys and make a few silver pieces in the process. The thought of making some coin made me feel a little better so I said why not. A deal was then set with these guys. I only needed opportunity now. Passover was only a few days away. I figured this may be a good time to do what I had planned.
I calmy returned to the society of the diciples and Jesus. Tonight we would celebrate the Passover. I was beginning to feel a little better now. My anger had subsided and I began to really question whether or not I should do this to Jesus. My mind was struggling back and forth over this issue. Dusk drew on and we entered the upper chamber to celebrate the Passover. As usual the others were bickering about who was going to be first in the kingdom. I ,however, could have cared less at this point. My mind was occupied with a greater struggle right now. There were no servants there to wash our feet as usual. That's when Jesus did something strange. He got up from the table and grabbed the basin and began to wash our feet. I who normally was accustomed to being last got to be first for once. Jesus was actually washing MY feet! I finally let go of the last bit of my anger and decided to not go through with my plan to betray Jesus.
Jesus finished washing all of our feet and then sat down for the Passover supper. My spirits were somewhat lifted. He then got very solemn. A prayer of thanks insued then Jesus broke the bread and passed it around to us. "One of you will betray me tonight" The words came like a dagger through my heart. Anger and resentment began to build up within me. The others were asking Jesus, "Is it me?", again another spoke up "Is it me?" I remained silent. I didn't want to be publicly insulted again. I had grown tired of it. I decided to remain quiet and just dip my bread in the sop on the table. I didn't notice that Jesus had the same idea as me. He was also about to dip his bread in the sop when He spoke up while looking at me, "It is the one that is dipping with me in the dish now" I was enraged! Publicly humiliated again! But Jesus was not done yet. He had something further to say to me."Judas, what you do go and do quickly"
I left the upper room controlling my anger as best I could. Depression was trying to envelope me as I walked to the chief priests but my anger kept me going. At this point I could care less about the money. I want my revenge! When I arrived at the chief priests, I composed myself and told them where'd they'd find Jesus. They gave me 30 pieces of silver for my troubles and I then led them to the garden where I knew I'd find Jesus praying. When I saw Jesus I knew how to play my part. I went up to Him in the dampness of the night and gently kissed him on the cheek so that the priests would know which one was Jesus. He was arrested and carried off. Being curious as to the outcome of this I naturally followed to see what would happen. Already I could feel my anger cooling down and I watched in the shadows.
It wasn't long until they began beating Him and mocking Him. Jesus strangely was not resisting them like I thought He would. Now, lest you think I'm the hardened man people portray me as , I actually began to feel sorry for Jesus. I began to doubt whether I had done the right thing. Did I just betray an innocent man? I must set this right! I made my way back to the chief priets and threw their money at them. I wanted nothing more to do with this! Despair and depression were already flooding in upon me like a furious storm. All they could say was, "What does that have to do with us?""You made your decision, now live with it!" What was I to do? No one liked me. I'm sure the diciples will have nothing to do with me now. I really don't have any close ties anymore. I feel alone, miserable and deeply overwhelmed with despair.
I made my way to a tree sturdy enough to support my weight. Hopefully this rope won't break I thought. My soul will not be tortured for long. I placed the noose around my neck and hung myself.
End
Now Am I trying to create sympahty for Judas somehow?, possibly, however, that is not my main intention rather I told this story through his eyes for the purpose of discussion. I wanted you to see how this man must have felt given the circumstances surrounding him in the biblical accounts. Now let's analyze that biblical account. It is a fact that when Judas' name is ever mentioned in any kind of roll call in the bible that it is always last. It is a fact that whenever you see Jesus speaking to Judas in the bible it was always done in public fashion, never privately. Fact, Judas was depressed(sane people don't commit suicide).
Now, let's talk about Jesus' treatment of Judas. Jesus treated Judas differently than He did the other diciples. He was not welcomed like the other diciples were. You never see Jesus going to Judas privately like he so often did with say Peter. Nowhere in the biblical account do you see Jesus goto Judas with a concern for his eternal welfare. At any time Jesus could have pulled Judas aside like he did with Peter so often and say, "You know Judas, I'm concerned about you. You've been stealing money from the purse. You seem somewhat detached from the group. Is there anything wrong? Would you like to talk about something that's on your mind? Can I help you Judas? Are you struggling with depression?" Do we find Jesus doing this? Nope. If anything what do we see Jesus doing? His first encounter with Judas was a public humiliation. The second time He spoke out against Judas was at the party, another public humiliation. Finally the last time we see Jesus speaking to Judas was again yet another public humiliation in front of the other diciples in the upper room. I find it ironic that Jesus did not even hold to His own mandate here, namely, "Moreover if they brother shall trepass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone..." Matthew 18:15.
Judas was ostracised from the very get go. It's no wonder he finally lashed out the way he did. I'll go even further and say that Jesus used his knowledge of human psychology to illicit the response that he needed from Judas. Notice Jesus' words to Judas "What thou doest do quickly!" Jesus wanted, no needed Judas to betray Him in order to fulfill prophecies concerning Him and to get His glory! Jesus used this man's faults to His advantage. Judas ,sadly, eventually commited suicide due to this humiliating display of evilness.
What about all the good things you see God doing in the bible? Given the above incidents I suggest that these acts were nothing more than show. What do I mean by that? All the good things that God has done were only done to ultimately serve a selfish motive of His, namely thwarting Satan's accusations against Him and ultimately gaining the respect and love of the universe. In light of this, look at the sacrifice of Christ. Certainly that's a good thing God has done. God became a man and died for the sins of the world thereby making the the ultimate sacrifice. Was it really a sacrifice though? In my opinion, no. All things are possible with God right? In light of this fact, God then coming down to earth and becoming a man was not all that big because it's just a snap of the finger for God. His sacrifice was also far from ultimate as well. The ultimate sacrifice would have been for God to die forever but that's not what happened. He endured some physical torture, died, and popped right back to life. Not too shabby in my opinion. He gains the respect and love of the universe, thwarts Satan's accusations without having to use force and now people are more willing to trust Him more. If I were God and wanted to win people over to my side I'd do the same thing. After all, there's no real risk there. Die for three days and come out alive and on top. Sounds good to me. In Fact, Jesus reiterated over and over to His disciples that He was only going to be dead for three days, big deal. It's not like He's dying forever you know.
I could go on and on about the atrocities God has commited and His followers all the religious wars, etc, but I'll leave it at that. Look at the world around you. I can't even turn on the evening news at night without hearing about some priest molesting some child, someone being murdered, a war here a war there, thefts, and all other abominable things. What does this just and loving creator do about this? Nothing. Can you honestly say there is a God in the face of some poor woman being raped or some child getting molested? I mean c'mon does He sit back and just watch these things take place? Certainly it's within His power to prevent these things. Furthermore, to try and absolve God by saying that He must allow these things to happen so Satan can ultimately be unmasked just wreaks of selfishness! Selfishness, because in order to be seen as right before the universe, He must allow these things to happen. It's ok if some child gets molested as long and I(God) get my glory and am exonerated. It's ok for some child to watch his mother get chopped up into little pieces as long as I (God) am seen as just. Why does God allow and sin and sufferring? Trust me, He does it to win no matter the cost.
God is responsible for evil. God has also been shown to partake in evil if it serves His purpose. In fact evil actually existed with God first. Evil was actually in the mind of God! As a matter of fact there's biblical evidence to support this. Exodus 3:13, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...." Make no bone about it this God is evil and He has had designs on this universe from the get go. In light of this will you continue to serve this evil God or are you willing to die with me for what you believe in? I'm prepared to die eternally for what I believe how about you? I'm not on satan's side nor am I on God's side. They can both goto hell in my book.

CTC · Site Admin Joined: 06 Apr 2002 Posts: 118

Judas,

This bulletin board reckons that posts half the length of yours are incredibly rude. Please reread the user agreement (item #4) and the forum philosophy. For an answer to some of your issues, consider the thread, Answers to the Problem of Evil.

Judas · apologist for Satan Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 3

Rude? sorry that I can't approach this subject in 2 sentences. The length of the post is justified as it answers every rebuttal even the great controversy one that you directed me to. What's rude is removing it to the jail area rather than letting it stand in the proper place. No problem, I deal with this everywhere. Christians would rather put their hands over their ears then deal with what I've written. It's ok though, it's your forum and you can be dogmatic all you please.

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

Judas, I could kiss you. Who are you? Are you familiar, by any chance, with this poem by the late Jack Parsons?

What is the tumult among the stars
that have shone so still till now?
What are the furrows of pain and wrath
upon the immortal brow?

Why is the face of God turned grey
and his angels all grown white?
What is the terrible ruby star
that burns down the crimson night?

What is the beauty that flames so bright
athwart the awful dawn?
She has taken flesh, she is come to judge
the thrones ye rule upon.

Quail ye kings for an end is come
in the birth of BABALON.

*

I have walked three dreadful nights away
in halls beyond despair,
I have given marrow and tears and sweat
and blood to make her fair.

I have lain my love and smashed my heart
and filled her cup with blood,
That blood might flow from the loins of woe
to the cup of brotherhood.

The cities reel in the shout of steel
where the sword of war is drawn.
Sing ye saints for the day is come
in the birth of BABALON.

*

Now God has called for his judgement book
and seen his name therein
And the grace of God and the guilt of God
have spelt it out as sin

His bloody priests have clutched his robes
and stained his linen gown
And his victims swarm from his broken hell
to drag his kingdom down.

O popes and kings and the little gods
are sick and sad and wan
To see the crimson star that bursts
like blood upon the dawn

While trumpets sound and stars rejoice
at the birth of BABALON

*

BABALON is too beautiful
for sight of mortal eyes
She has hidden her loveliness away
in lonely midnight skies,

She has clothed her beauty in robes of sin
and pledged her heart to swine
And loving and giving all she has
brewed for saints immortal wine.

But now the darkness is riven through
and the robes of sin are gone,
And naked she stands as a terrible blade
and a flame and a splendid song

Naked in radiant mortal flesh
at the Birth of BABALON.

*

She is come new born as a mortal maid
forgetting her high estate,
She has opened her arms to pain and death
and dared the doom of fate,

And death and hell are at her back,
but her eyes are bright with life,
Her heart is high and her sword is strong
to meet the deadly strife,

Her voice is sure as the judgement trump
to crack the house of wrong,
Though walls are high and stone is hard
and the rule of hell was long

The gates shall fall and the irons break
in the Birth of BABALON

*

Her mouth is red and her breasts are fair
and her loins are full of fire,
And her lust is strong as a man is strong
in the heat of her desire,

And her whoredom is holy as virtue is foul
beneath the holy sky
And her kisses will wanton the world away
in passion that shall not die.

Ye shall laugh and love and follow her dance
When the wrath of God is gone
And dream no more of hell and hate
in the Birth of BABALON

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

p.s. - You are in prison here, and I am visiting you. Cool

I am not ashamed to call you my brother. I wish I could say the same about many of those who dare claim the name of Christ as their own, yet think nothing about visiting oppression and atrocity upon those who differ from them or disagree with them.

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

I see that now I've been demoted from "hopefully saved by grace" to "Babylonian". I can only conclude the administrator has a sense of humor and did this in response to the poem. Cool

For what it's worth .... the "Babalon" of the poem has nothing in common with the Babylon of Revelation other than the symbol of a harlot. In fact, the Babalon of the poem would be diametrically opposed to the Babylon of Revelation because the former is in favor of unrestricted freedom while the latter is in favor of the use of legislative coercion and murderous compulsion.

gillespie9669 · Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:50 am Post subject:

Dear Judas (interesting name, isn't it?)
Now that you have said your piece, I ask you where do we/you go from here? You seem to present yourself as such depository of wisdom, to be able to even bring to judgment, and subject to indictment God Himself. Could you now, dear Judas, grace us with the answers(s) to life's dilemma, since it is not found in (according to you) our "evil God", nor the Devil He intentionally created to gain political mileage with the Universe.
I now ask of you to not stop now, since outlining the "problem" is not the same, as giving the "solution". Or are we all men most miserable with no hope, as we grope around in the evil darkness God Himself created and perpetuated? Dare to enlighten us (or entertain us even), dear Judas?
I WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU!!!
_________________
_________________
Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

gillespie9669 · Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:41 am Post subject:

Judas,
While we await your response to that all important question I posed- "Where do we go from here, if (according to you) God is evil like the Devil, and both are not worth serving?"- let me ask another question or two.

It takes much faith to believe that the God of the Bible (Jehovah) is the true God of the universe; and not the other gods like Allah, Bhudda, Brahma, Zoroaster, etc. No one can prove beyond a doubt that Jehovah is the real God, and Jesus is His Son (God manifested); but that is accepted on the basis of faith (even if some necessary and worthwhile evidence exist to appeal to someone searching). So why have you latched on to this "Jehovah" God as the originator, propogator, and the source of evil? Why not any of the others, or all of them? Upon what basis must I believe that the God you have levelled these 'charges' against is the right Being to indicte? Interesting that you have so much faith in this Biblical God being the true God, but so little faith in His goodness to allow his personal creatures to have the power of choice, and then Him allowing them to see the outcome of their choices.
Interesting that you quote the Bible to declare God guilty of evil, when it takes so much faith to believe that Jehovah is the right God in the first place. Or are you just role playing for the fun of it. Can you role play in your own court against the gods of the other religion? Why or why not?

Judas, your FAITH in our Jehovah God betrays you as a tortured soul who desperately need an answer to lifes problems. That God whom you accuse has offered the answer to life (evil and hypocritical on God's part as it may seem to you). He offers LIFE through His Son, if you only ask Him to save you. If I were you, I would accept this gift and then confront God Himself in Heaven (where it matters) and then raise my accusations there, when He can answer me face to face. But aren't you just beating the air, and crying against the dark, if all you hope to accomplish is gaining a few disciples on the road to eternal death? Is that what your answer to life's dilemma is, or will be- DEATH? Even the "evil" God you accuse has a better answer than you. Everyone wants to LIVE, even the Devil (that's why he created the concept of eternal torment or eternal living in hell). You certainly need to come up with some better answers if you will prove to be wiser than God.
AWAITING YOUR ANSWER, JUDAS!!
_________________
Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

I found this on the web this morning and thought it kind of provides an answer to the things "Judas" raised here on the forum. Good thing I'm answering an "in jail" post because it is pretty long! Smile

And perhaps by public testimony to my resonance with it I might possibly redeem myself from being styled a "Babylonian"? Because I'm not one, honestly. I used to be, but those days are far (and by God's grace, permanently) behind me now.

The God Who Weeps

(This article is by Janet Dagon and was printed in the May 23, 1991, Adventist Review. I believe we can all identify with the author who was, by the way, the same age I am now when she wrote this: 39.)

I grew up with a heart full of faith. I never questioned where this faith came from or if it would ever end.

I grew up thinking I was one of the good guys, a Christian, a true believer, and that God would never let me down.

I grew up believing that God was in charge, that everything came from Him, and that He’d never give me a cross too hard to bear.

Then my mother died from cancer when I was 21.

My faith sprang into action. I believed that God placed us here for a specific reason, and once that mission was fulfilled, He called us home. Because I had finished nursing school, passed my state boards, and was employed full-time as a staff nurse, I told myself that my mother’s mission to guide me to adulthood was completed.

I never asked why she had to suffer such unbearable pain the last three months of her life.

Tests of Faith?

When I was 29, my father was admitted to the hospital with cancer of the colon. Two floors above him, my 3-year-old son, Mark, was hooked up to an IV after 48 hours of persistent vomiting. Next to him, his 5-year-old brother, Jeff, was in a croup tent with a chronic respiratory infection. It was two weeks before Christmas, and I told myself God was testing my faith.

I never asked why those I loved so dearly had to suffer in order for me to prove my loyalty.

When I was 31, I was wheeled into the delivery room for the third time. Both my parents were gone, and while their absence still brought twinges of sorrow, there was much to be thankful for. My sons were healthy (finally), and my husband, Dave, and I were looking forward to the birth of another child.

It had all seemed so perfect.

Shattered

Then Scott was born with a unilateral cleft lip and palate, and my world fell apart.

God never gives us a cross too hard to bear.

That’s what my mother had told me. That’s what I had heard from the pulpit. I tried to find hope in those words. But when the doctor told me Scott would need years of extensive surgery; that he would be prone to chronic ear infections that, if not properly treated, could result in a permanent hearing loss; that he would need speech therapy and long-term orthodontic treatment - everything inside of me shattered.

There was nothing to hang on to.

Nothing to believe in.

Nothing to take away the pain.

Even Dave, who had somehow always managed to catch me before I fell, couldn’t help me this time. He was too busy crying himself.

Friends and relatives came to visit, bringing their versions of God with them. There was the God who loved Dave and me so much that He blessed us with a "special" child, the God who was testing us, and the One who had a plan we weren’t yet able to understand.

While their reasons differed, their advice was the same: "Accept God’s will. Don’t question His divine wisdom. Be strong, be patient, be faithful." I listened through the tears, hugs, and pats on the back and asked myself questions I had never dared ask before.

Daring Questions

Who was this God who teased and taunted, who gave and took like an irrational child?

Who was this God who asked for blind faith and then, refusing to accept the faith that I had, kept on testing it?

Who was this God who gave me a free will and an inquisitive mind, then told me not to use them?

Who was He? And where did He fit in my life?

Scott was only 10 weeks old when he had the cleft lip (commonly known as a harelip) repaired.

Only 10 weeks old, I railed as I shook my fist at the heavens.

Why, God? Why did You let this happen? Give me all the crosses You want - pile them on. But leave my children alone!

The questions and accusations threw me into a self-imposed limbo. I desperately wanted to keep my faith, but how could I go on believing in a God who picked on innocent children? I thought and pondered, meditated and prayed, rummaging around inside myself for an answer, but I couldn’t find one. So I did what I always do when I’m angry with someone - I ignored Him.

But the questions were still there, gnawing away inside of me, and every time Scott was hospitalized, I lost another piece of my soul.

Shocked Into Faith

Several years went by, and then one evening while I was watching the local news I saw something that shocked me into regaining my faith.

A young girl had been brutally raped and murdered several days before. After giving a police update, the newscast flashed to the child’s funeral. The church was packed. The minister clutched the pulpit and in a trembling voice said, "We are not alone in our sorrow today, for God is weeping with us."

A God who weeps? A God who cries with us?

I tossed that idea around in my head for quite some time. If I believed in God’s goodness and love, why was it so hard for me to believe He felt my sorrow and pain?

Because to do so meant that there were no "tests" of faith, no specific "missions" to be accomplished. It meant God wasn’t up there pulling all the strings. To believe in God, I had to face the fact that I was vulnerable to every quirk of humanity, every law of nature. And when something went wrong in my life, it wasn’t necessarily part of some master plan.

I had to accept the fact that things didn’t always happen for a reason.

It went against everything I was taught, everything I believed in. But it’s true; the same sun rises on the evil and the good, and the same rain falls on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45).

It also meant that this Being, whom I wanted to love so much, wasn’t playing games with me or my family. It meant I could let go of my anger.

I’m now 39, and while life continues to make me take a good, hard look at myself and my God, my vision has changed.

Scott has had two operations to correct his cleft palate, has had an undescended testicle repaired, was hospitalized for two weeks with hemophilus influenza, has had tubes put in both ears twice to drain fluid, has had two years of speech therapy, and has recently started orthodontic treatment.

It seems like a lot when it’s lumped together like that, but it didn’t happen all at once. It was spread through the years in small doses, and I have much to be thankful for. Through all of this, Scott has been blessed with extremely talented and caring doctors.

Today he is a bright, happy, active 8-year-old whose laughter brightens every day.

The years have also taken more members of my family: aunts, uncles, cousins, and most recently my father-in-law. He was an honest, hardworking man whose sudden death has left a hole in all our hearts.

But I don’t shake my fist at the heavens anymore, and I don’t ask why. Life is too short to search for answers that may or may not exist. Some days are just plain tough and there’s no getting around them.

During my period of soul searching, I realized, I never questioned the joyous moments in my life. Passing my state boards, the warmth of my husband’s hand in mine, the daily hugs and kisses from my sons - these Ive accepted without raising any tantrums. And when I signed my first book contract, I didn’t ask anyone why this was happening to me.

Pain and sorrow; happiness and joy.

Tears laced with laughter.

The tapestry of life. Woven with faith. Edged in hope. Framed with the promise of redemption.

Redemption. That’s what it’s all about. Without that frame our lives unravel.

A God I can Believe In

I can see that now. I can run my fingers over the rough spots and not bleed, because I’ve found a God I can really believe in.

My God has a fantastic sense of humor. I can hear His laughter in my soul when I’m clowning around with my sons or enjoying a good joke with my husband.

God gets angry, but He’s merciful and patient. I can see Him shake His head when I lose my temper and say and do things I don’t really mean.

"Come on," He prods. "You can do better than that."

My God is a good listener, never interrupting when I have something to say. I talk to Him often while I’m doing the dishes or folding laundry or peeking in on my sons.

And God cries when I do. I feel His warmth wrap around me like a welcome friend. My strength comes from knowing He’s always there, waiting with open arms.

The God who weeps.

Jesus - a friend, a lover, a compassionate spirit who understands what it’s like to be human, for He’s been here.

I don’t know what the future will bring. The next turn in the road may erase or sharpen some of those images. But I do know that God isn’t up there somewhere handing out crosses. He’s standing right next to me, ready to help me carry them.

Because of God. I’ve found comfort, joy, and peace.

Because of God, the goodness in life shines through.

gillespie9669 · Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:55 am Post subject:

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

gillespie9669 · Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:48 pm Post subject:

Dear Narcissa,
You are indeed right. I have not met you, I know nothing about you, but I have presumed much. Sorry if I offended you. But here is the thing. Two threads were started by Judas about God being evil. His presentation was, from all apperances, well studied and well presented, with the most impressive oratry geared to incite displeasure about God's character. Then to see you start out by saying: