How did the SDA church become Trinitarian?

Mickey · Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:33 pm Post subject:

Amen Steve! Very well answered. You know, it continues to amaze me how the word "son" when its used in connection with Jesus is said to have such a broad-based meaning that encompasses every single possible allegorical definition that could be attached to it but yet is totally exclucive of its basic and literal meaning! Unbelievable! Trinitarians throw away the most obvious meaning of "son" in order to escape the truth of Christ's literal sonship just like the sunday sabbath proponents throw away the whole of the ten commandments to escape the claims of the Sabbath of the Lord. They tell us that the literal sonship of Christ is not in the bible yet they fail to produce the allegories and the direct statements from the bible substantiating their claim that Christ is not the Son of God. They ask us to ignore the scriptures while yielding to their intellectual philosophies. Does something smell fishy to you, brother?

I think that the following quote that you have cited sums up the picture quite nicely and accurately:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." 1John 4:15

This harmonizes with the words of Jesus to Peter after Peter made the following confession of faith:

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It only serves to follow that those who stubbornly refuse to confess that Jesus is the Son of God in the face of overwhelming scriptural evidence is a sign that God is not dwelling within such a person and certainly is not speaking His word through that person.

One more thing, brother Steve that's worthy of note. What does the bible require of an individual as a pre-requisite of faith for baptism? The answer:

Acts 8:36-37 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Did the eunuch proclaim that he believed that Jesus "entered into the ROLE of the Son"??? No, absolutely not! He confessed his faith, as did the apostle Peter before him, that Jesus is the SON OF GOD!

What was the FIRST thing that the newly converted Paul preached?

Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Does it say that Paul preached a ROLE-PLAYING Son??? No! So then why are SDA's???

The apostle John tells us that ONLY CERTAIN people with a CERTAIN belief will overcome the world. Wanna guess what that belief is?

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

No one is going to overcome the world while they choose to believe in a doctrine of the world - in the trinity of the beast.

The devils believe and tremble. Do you know what those devils believe and tremble about?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils also believe that Jesus is the Son of the One God and they do tremble!

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Wow, the devils making the same confession as Peter! Could it be to a ROLE-PLAYING son???

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Hmm. Interesting. The devils here elaborate and proclaim that Jesus is the Son of the MOST HIGH GOD! The Father is the MOST HIGH GOD. Christ is the SON OF THE MOST HIGH GOD! Can the scriptures get any plainer? Preachers, teachers, pastors, and evangelists refuse to believe the plain utterances of scripture. The devils, damned as they may be, seem to be one up on some of these characters who claim to be ambassadors of God's truth!

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

This woman confesses that Jesus is the Son of God which should come into the world. He CAME to the world ALREADY as God's Son, not as the trinity teaches that He came to the world and BECAME God's Son. Big difference!

Steve, the bible is so replete with references to the fact that Christ is God's Son that its mind-boggling to see so many stubbornly refuse to see this truth. Trinitarians cannot even produce not even one one hundredth of the scripture verses to prove their view as we have been easily producing which teach the non-trinitarian position.

The biblical facts are there. They cannot be refuted. I pray the Lord will open the eyes of those who for whatever reason cannot see beyond the traditon of men at this time.

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

Amen Mickey, well said

dedication · Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:39 pm Post subject:

Dedication,

Why is it that the view that you espouse sounds so much like the Catholic view? Did the Catholic church get that part right and miss everything else? The Catholic Church claims to be the originator of the Trinity belief. They also recognize no direct scriptural support for this belief.

What is the Catholic view?
They may give lip service to a view simular to the truth, HOWEVER, they believe in a MOTHER, SON God--
To them MARY is the mother of God and queen of heaven, and therefore is raised to high status as co-redemptress, co-mediator with Christ. That is hardly our view.

Now I ask you--
The Catholics also claim to be the originators of the Bible--
They claim they are the ones who collected the letters of apostles and decided what was and what was not to be in the Bible.

Are you going to throw that out too?
There is no text in the scriptures that say "Hebrews, 1st and 2nd Peter, James and 1st, 2nd, 3rd John, and the Revelation by John, are scripture, BUT "Acts of Peter, Revelation of Peter, and the gospel of the Hebrews" are not scripture.

No text anywhere to tell us that.
All the above books were at one time or other considered or disputed as scripture, however, by the year 400 A.D. at the Council of Carthage, the New Testament was fixed exactly the way we protestants regard it today.

dedication · Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:55 pm Post subject:

To be from everlasting to everlasting-- means without beginning or end. That is the quality of the true God.

No, derived god can be the TRUE GOD.
Christ is not derived, He is not procreated.

Yes, He became the literal SON OF GOD for our salvation.-- but He is from all eternity-- one with the Father.

It's interesting-- I have also studied the sanctuary doctrine extensively--- Christ's two phase ministry for our salvation, -- it too, is all through the Bible, yet I can't say any one passage in scripture totally defines it-- BUT IT IS VERY MUCH in the Bible---
--and people will critisize us because there is no text that says in 1844 Christ entered the most holy place and began the investigative judgment, in that many words.
Yet, there are so many texts that support it!

It runs like a ribbon of TRUTH through all through the Bible.

The same with the eternal nature of Christ.
He has life underived, self existant, eternal. He is the fountain of LIFE.

The texts so commonly considered to be about the FATHER in the Old Testament-- The LORD YOUR GOD-- are often refering to Christ! For He is the LORD ALMIGHTY that appeared to Abraham and talked to Him. (Gen. 17:1) He spoke to Israel, He lead them in the cloud of fire and the pillar of cloud.

The Bible says HE IS FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING-- (Ps. 90:2)
Without father or mother, without beginning of life or end of days. Hebrews 7:3

dedication · Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:10 pm Post subject:

What is God the Father like?

Jesus said, "If we have seen HIM, CHRIST, then we have seen the FATHER!" If we know CHRIST, we know the FATHER! If we beleive in Christ, we believe in the FATHER! (John 12:44, John 14:9-11, 10:30) For Jesus and the Father are ONE! Two persons, BUT ONE GOD.

dedication · Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:13 pm Post subject:

We do not deny that Christ is called the SON OF GOD-- the term connotates the closeness, and ONEness of the two, -- it also connotates the humility of Christ as He did not count equality with God a thing to cling to, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, humbled himself and placed Himself in a position of total dependance upon the FATHER.

WHY IS THERE THIS EMPHASES upon Christ being the Son of God and God being the Father in the New Testament. Remember earlier you pretty much tried to do away with all the Old Testament Texts that spoke of (plurality in the Godhead) It seems to me that this whole “belief” you are teaching is in all actuality doing away with the Godhood of Christ. Yes, it still gives lip service to the divinity of Christ-- but once someone really takes hold of that doctrine there is NO WAY THEY CAN VIEW CHRIST AS GOD AND WORSHIP HIM. FOR THE BIBLE IS PLAIN that we are to worship the ONE TRUE GOD-- if Christ is not the ONE TRUE GOD, then He is not a god to be worshiped-- for we are to worship ONLY the One true God. To go against the full Godhood of Christ yet believing He is a lesser god, is truly paganism-- the trinity is truth of ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS. In perfect unity.

Now why this emphasis that Christ WAS THE SON OF GOD. (A term not found in the Old Testament except in allegorical terms-- though Christ was IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD, and HE WAS GOD (See John 1:1)

Christ became not only the Son of God, but also the Son of Man. This is the KEY element in the New testament concerning Christ Jesus.

“Thus Paul speaks of Christ as a descendant of David according to His human nature (Rom. 1:3) and as “Son of God…according to the Spirit of holiness” (Rom 1:4) two natures in a single person. In the Epistle to the Hebrews one finds from the very start a systematic development of Christ’s two natures in one person. The first chapter proclaims Christ’s deity (verses 2,3,6,8,10-12) while the second chapter elaborates on His humanity (verse 9,14,16,17) The same personal union is recounted in Paul’s description of Christ as being in the very form (nature) of God, yet, regarding His humanity, making Himself nothing, taking the very form (nature, again) of a servant, and being made in human likeness (Phil. 2-6-8) John likewise, attest that the Word, who is God, became flesh, and that Christ, having a divine and human nature, dwelled among humans (John 1:1-18) (page 169 Handbook of SDA Theology)

Christ was human, there was no question about that as He walked the dusty roads of Judea and Galilee.

John 6.42

And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

That is how they perceived Christ--

They denied that Christ came from the very “bosom” of God, to reveal God. This denial comes from those who refuse to see the full Godhood in Christ the Son. Do you believe that Christ came forth from the very essence of the Godhood in heaven when He came to this earth to redeem mankind. Do you believe it was GOD WITH US, when Christ was born in Bethlehem. Was it the TRUE GOD WITH US, or was it a lesser Being?

Matthew 1.23

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. "

Yes, Christ is the real Son of God, born of a virgin in Bethlehem. God (known to us as the SON OF GOD) became human, lowering Himself from the most exalted position in the universe to became one of us, for our salvation. He totally emptied Himself, and became totally dependant and obedient to His Heavenly Father. He came to be our brother-- leading us in example to look up and to see God as Father.

John 8.42
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. "

John 16.28
"I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."

All these texts tell us that CHRIST CAME FORTH from the very essence of the Godhood, and came into the world. It DOES NOT MEAN He came into initial existance by a birth processes--- He came forth from God into the world and was born of a virgin and was called EmmanuEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US,

So yes, while the Jews were saying Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? John 6.42

The Apostles were declaring that Jesus was the SON OF GOD-- HE CAME FORTH FROM THE THRONE OF GOD-- to REVEAL GOD TO MANKIND.

His was no mere human origin-- He came forth from the throne of God, became a human.

His origin was not in the womb like everyone else that was born on this earth, He came forth from God and through the birth process became human.

Would people say Jesus was only the son of Joseph, or as some who deny Christ’s incarnation today -- the son of some Roman soldier-- or was HE THE DIVINE SON OF GOD!

To deny that He CAME FROM GOD and was as truly the SON OF GOD as He was the SON OF MAN, was to deny the FULL GODHEAD-- including THE FATHER in heaven.

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

dedication · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:14 am Post subject:

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

Again, what is the role of the Father in the Trinitarian view?

dedication · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:58 am Post subject:

dedication · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:12 am Post subject:

God the FATHER IS GOD-- in the fullest, completest sense.
How can any finite human spell out the role of the INFINITE HOLY GOD?

I only know what His role was NOT--
He was not the person of the Godhood who died upon the cross,
He was not the person of the Godhood who is our High Priest,

And yet--

"God Himself was crucified with Christ; for Christ was one with the Father." {FLB 50.4}
"God himself suffered in the suffering of his Son. While Jesus walked the earth in the habiliments of humanity, he could say, "I and my Father are one" Having undertaken the work of redemption, the Lord spares nothing, however costly, which is essential to the completion of his design. {ST, March 5, 1896 par. 8}"

Were I able fully to set forth God, I should either be a god myself, or God himself would cease to be what he is." The greatness of God cannot be measured or comprehended. And that doctrine that denies the absolute Godhead of Jesus Christ, denies also the Godhead of the Father; for no man knoweth the Son but the Father. {ST, June 27, 1895 par. 3}

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

Ellen White does not hold to the catholic view. In her statements in the book Patriarchs and Prophets she says that Jesus is the ONLY being that could enter into the counsel of God (PP 34,36). Ellen White contradicts herself or your interpretation is wrong. The catholic view says three persons make up one God, but Ellen White says three powers come together for one purpose, our salvation. For that matter all heaven has been enlisted to aid in this great work.

The Bible says that there are two in the counsel of peace (Zech. 6:12,13). In the book of Revelation there is described two beings with highest authority, God and the Lamb:

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Rev. 21:22

"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." Rev. 22:1

The Bible also says that there only two we need to know about in order to have eternal life:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Now interestingly "there are three that bear record in heaven" (1John 5:7) "and there are three that bear witness in earth" (v. 8) six powers witness altogether but they all witness to the same thing:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 1John 5:11

Now with regard to Melchisedec,

Hebrews 7:3 sites this priest being without father or mother, not having "beginning of days, nor end of life". Since that is impossible for a human being in a litteral interpretation then this cannot mean that this person, Melchisedec was never born or never died or never had a father or mother. Simply it means that there was not a record of it, which was all important in the priesthood in order to serve as priest.

"And verily they that are of the sons of levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But HE WHOSE DESCENT IS NOT COUNTED from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises." Heb. 7:5,6

This text is pointing to the priesthood of Christ the origin and scope of it and not the origin of Melchisedec or Jesus Christ.

Finally, the Trinity concept does not as many feel elevate Christ to a higher position, because Christ position is the same in the mind of the Trinitarian (in his view) and the non-Trinitarian (in his view). We believe that Jesus is one with the Father and that he has every characteristic of the Father (immortality, power, etc.) because He is His Son. However, I do believe that the Trinitarian belief demotes God the Father to a mere figurehead.

For example:

1.) If they are all equal in authority why does one send the other?
2.) If Jesus is our savior and died for us and the Holy Spirit is the one who gives us power to overcome sin and calls us, what do we need the Father for?
3.) If they are all of equal authority why would Jesus need to present anything to the Father (blood, etc.) for the remission of our sins?

If three people form a commitee and two of the people do all the work then that makes the third member a figurehead.

Mickey · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 7:44 am Post subject:

Mickey · Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 7:52 am Post subject: