A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Having read this entire thread, has given me some insights into things that would be well for some of the posters here to consider.
If one were to read this whole thing through and consider carefully the words said without any judgment as to who is "right" and who is "wrong" puts things into a different perspective. It is obvious to this reader that some are in defense of themselves and their postion and others are in defense of God. It is not a question of correct doctrines that determines the truth. It is a question of full surrender to God. But there is a primary question that is at stake here.
The primary question seems to be one of whether Wayne Bent is Messiah or not. The other things that spring out of that are questions about being led of God or not, having the proper faith and defense of ones own positions whether a lie was spoken or not. The question I have is simple. Is Wayne Bent the Messiah for today or not? To answer that question would necessitate looking at the past in its true light (as it was seen then) and project that thought forward to today.
Was Noah the Messiah for his day? To anyone who was not seeking God with their whole heart, mind soul and body he would appear to be an imposter. He was in direct contradiction to the known science of the day. He said that it would rain when it never had. Today it is very simple to know of rain, but then it was a preposterous assertion. It was something that had never happened and was something that was unknown. Then to compound the issue this one man was not only proclaiming that the scientificially proven impossibilty of rain occuring was going to occur but in addtion it was going to drown the entire planet. And in addtion to that he was going to make a boat that was the ONLY one where one could be safe from this great impossibilty. Were there other boats in Noah's day? One cannot be sure, but we do know that there were rivers, lakes and streams. The planet was watered by four great rivers named in Genesis. That there were other boats would not take a great stretch of imagination. That a person could say that they would be "saved" in the boat of their own making would again not be hard to imagine. I can hear Noah say, "No, you will be saved only in this boat." Would this one man not be thought to be a controller of minds? Would this one man not be thought to be "holier than thou"? Would not his followers be thought to be deceived? The end result proved who was "right" and who was "wrong".
We can see the same thing in the days of many other prophets. Wasn't Isaiah thought to be insane when he ran around naked? Wasn't Hosea thought to be a commandment breaker when he married a whore? What about making a fire of human dung and eating the food baked over it, as Ezekiel did? Wouldn't that be considered an abomination? Haven't all the prophets been rejected by the many and only accepted by a very very tiny few? Didn't Jesus say, "As it was in the days of Noah so shall be when when the Son of Man comes?" How many were saved in Noah's day? Was it the thousands? No it was only eight. And when Jesus died was he a great hero? Was He the Messiah for then or not? Even his closest followers ran away ashamed and confused.
One could look at Jesus's life in the same light as one looks at Noah. One woman (Mary) proclaims that she is pregnant with a child of God. Again this had never happened before. Can't you hear the tongue waggers of her day? Wouldn't they be saying something like, "Sex with God? Did God come an have intercourse with you?" Again the people had to believe only one person who claimed the bizarre as truth. Mary had to believe the dream that Joseph had, that she did not have, in order to save the child Jesus from death. Then finally those few who were seeking God with all their heart had to believe a bastard who claimed to be God. This one man was in direct contradiction to the commonly accepted beliefs of the day. This is how it has always been.
God has always worked on the preposterous, the unimaginable, the ridiculous, the bizarre, the unscientific and always through one person. Everyone must put their entire faith, trust and hope in one person. AND they must accept as truth something that has NEVER occured before. They must accept that the bizarre as not only true, but that their very eternal salvation hangs on acceptance of that truth as coming from God and not from a human. Who was speaking to the people in Noah's day? Was it a crazy boat builder or was it God? Who was speaking to the people out of a whore marrying man mouth? Was it Hosea or was it God. And weren't some of the things that the prophets were saying in seemingly contradiction to the Bible? That one thought alone should give cause for serious reflection. That thought should give cause of serious consideration of whether ones postion is "right" or "wrong". There is much at stake in this controversay. What will be the end of it all?
In Noah's day when the "truth" came out whether he was right or wrong it was too late for those on the outside to get on the boat. Jesus said, "As it was in the days of Noah. . . ." Todays "rain" will not look like it did then. God does not repeat Himself for the doubters and those who "draw back" in self-defense of their postions. Only those who press to the end will see the salvation of their souls. One must be fully surrendered to God in all things else one is not surrendered at all. One sin will make the truth of none effect and cause the eyesight to be blinded.
Is Wayne Bent the Messiah for today? We could well say that when the truth is known it will be too late for those who disbelieved and could have taken the time to seriously consider what is really happening, rather than be in defense of a "doctrine" or some misunderstood occurence. Does it really matter if one is "right" and still be lost? Does it really matter if one is "correct" in their statements of what was "seen" or "heard" if the Spirit of God is rejected in the process? Go back and ask the people at the time of the flood who drowned if what they saw was correct? _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: There is only one Messiah
Hemet,
Your reasoning is not sound. You want to sound like an unbiased observer, but the way you speak reminds me strongly of the way the People of Travesser speak. I know that you want to trace how God has led his people through the ages as Stephen did before he was stoned, but there are some important differences here. One is that Stephen didnt lift himself up, but his whole point was to lift up Jesus Christ as the Promised One (notice it says Promised ONE, not two or many). Wayne proclaims himself messiah, but Jesus was witnessed to as being the Messiah by his Father in heaven, the scriptures, John the Baptist, the works his Father gave him to do. If the children had not shouted out "Hosanna" the very rocks would have.
Yes, Noah, the prophets, and Jesus were viewed by the majority as heretics and rejected by Pharisees of their day. And yes, many of the things they did appeared strange to the people of their day because the people had drifted from God and didnt recognize Him at his appearing. But just because Wayne Bent claims to be led of God and is doing things that go against scripture does not prove him to be the Messiah. How can sleeping with the two women prove his sinlessness?
A typical response from these people would be, "Well, spiritual things are spiritually discerned..." implying that by questioning the soundness of their reasoning, I am not spiritual, and I dont understand because of that. This is a true principle wrongly applied. When you make yourself infallible, and unquestionable, you need easy outs like these to cut the questioning short by implying that the questioner is simply a doubter not understanding because they are fleshly. It is another example of the spiritual oppression that keeps the people from reasoning things out for themselves and understanding the truth. God himself says "Come now, let us reason together... "
There is something else that really concerns me as well...
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Hemet777 wrote,
"The question I have is simple. Is Wayne Bent the Messiah for today or not?"
and "Was Noah the Messiah for his day?"
and "Didn't Jesus say, "As it was in the days of Noah so shall be when when the Son of Man comes?" How many were saved in Noah's day? Was it the thousands? No it was only eight. And when Jesus died was he a great hero? Was He the Messiah for then or not? Even his closest followers ran away ashamed and confused. "
I noticed the curious reference to men (Noah, Jesus, and Wayne Bent) each being a Messiah for their "time period". My Jesus is bigger than that. As a matter of fact, he is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the Lamb slain from the Foundation of the Earth, and the one sacrifice, the one atonement for our sins. No one comes to the Father except through Him, the man Jesus Christ, that is, Jesus THE Christ. Jesus THE ONE AND ONLY Christ.
Jesus was the ONLY begotten son of God. He was THE Savior for ALL time- the past (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the Earth), the present (being the only one who can save us from our sin, the spotless Lamb of God, "Behold the Lamb of God,which taketh away the sin of the world"), and the future when we shall see the "pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." My Jesus, the Lamb of God, will be sitting on the throne with God the Father. There won't be two Messiahs there, just Jesus.
Did Noah claim to be a Messiah? Did the prophets? Or the disciples? When people tried to worship Paul and Barnabas, they rent their clothes and rebuked them strongly because it was blasphemy. These people loved God and served him with their whole heart, but this did not make them Messiah. We are to be Christlike, not Christ himself. We are to have his spirit in us, and have his mind, that is how we are grafted to the True Vine, Christ. That is how we are the adopted children of God. We will bear his name, but at no time does it make us the Only Begotten Son of God.
There is a misconception that the People of Travesser hold to be true. They assume that to come to marriage with Jesus as the bride (the church), that in becoming one with Christ, they do more than just enter into His work, they replace him. Christ in you, the hope of glory, does not mean that we are now Christ. We are His and bear His name, but we do not become HIM. When a man and woman get married, yes, they become one. By becoming one, they are still two entities, but acting as one in having one purpose or spirit. The woman traditionally takes the man's name and abides with him. She, however, doesnt put his pants on and BECOME the husband, to do his job and have his title. We cannot do God's job, because we are NOT God, with his understanding, his wisdom and power. As we behold him, we change and take on his character, to become LIKE him, but we dont BE God. That is his job. That is why He is the great "I AM"
In order to make Wayne Bent a Messiah, in order to NEED Wayne to be a Messiah, you would have to make Jesus to be less than he was... only a man with the Christ spirit in him, only an evolved, enlightened teacher as the New Agers see him, just a man. What they would probably say is, there was one spirit in both Christ and Wayne, therefore one Messiah... well one of many problems with that thinking is you have to lower Christ in order to raise Wayne up. Let Christ alone be lifted up and exalted.
Jesus is much more than a man, he came out of God. He has existed before time. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:1-5 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14
I have been a New Ager before, and the belief it was leading to was that there was no God, but that we were all Co-creators of the universe. In order to make yourself God, you would have to dethrone the one and only real God.
But if JESUS is our all in all, He who died once for the sins of the world, the one sacrifice, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, The Lord our Righteousness... and our great eternal high priest who pleads for our souls before the Father AT THIS VERY MOMENT, then we don't need Wayne to be Messiah. Jesus Christ is the Messiah for ALL time, and we need no other.
Jesus Christ is the ark we all need to be in, to worship him in spirit and in truth. Not to follow false messiahs down to the dessert, or up on the mountain, or in secret chambers. God is everywhere, available to all who seek him. Mankind does not need to go through Wayne Bent, or Michael Travesser to come to the Father. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light. And Jesus Christ is freely available to all mankind through his Holy Spirit which is given as a light and a witness to every single human being. You dont have to go through an obscure "errant group" to gain access to salvation, only Jesus Christ can save a sin sick soul.
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Hemet777 writes...
"The end result proved who was "right" and who was "wrong". "
and he also writes, "Is Wayne Bent the Messiah for today? We could well say that when the truth is known it will be too late for those who disbelieved and could have taken the time to seriously consider what is really happening"
Well, God is the only one who is right. That is why we need the Lord to be our Righteousness. All of us, as erring humans, are wrong and need to be made whole by Jesus Christ, our righteousness and our salvation. Wayne is not God and cannot save anyone. Only Jesus can, for none can come to the Father, except through Him.
__________________
PacificAngel _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."
I do not wish to labor the point with you. If you are thoroughly convinced of your position, then who am I to try and say anything to the contrary? I only asked a question that demands an answer proportionate to the gravity of the times in which we live and the necessity of having a heart that is perfect towards God in these times.
In Noah's day they were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and knew not until it was too late. Jesus said it would be the same again. Didn't He? It is not too hard for one to take a serious moment to examine their own life within that framework to see if their life is a round of "marrying" and "giving in marriage".
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Did Noah claim to be a Messiah? Did the prophets? Or the disciples?
Messiah means anointed. If one is anointed for a task by God they have the Spirit of the Messiah for that task. They are filled with Messiah to do it and accomplish it. Moses did not claim to be the coming Messiah, but he did know that he was anointed by God for his task. So was Noah. Could someone today be filled with Jesus the Messiah and be anointed by Him for a specific task? When that person speaks could they be led of Jesus to say it? Could they speak knowing that it was God who was doing the speaking? Could they speak and know that Jesus the Messiah was doing the talking and not themselves? Moses thought so and so did Noah. They were not lifting themselves up. The people of Moses day thought that Moses was lifting himself up. Miriam thought so and became leperous. Are you willing to take that chance?
Yes, Jesus was the Messiah sent from God. Yes, He was the Only Begotten Son of God. But don't the scripture say "Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us that WE should be called the Sons of God?"
And didn't God also say that Jesus would return again? And HOW would He return? Didn't the angels say to the disciples that watched Him leave, that this same Jesus would come again "in like manner" as He left? So dear one, how many saw Him leave? And WHO were they that saw Him leave? Wasn't it only a small handful of His closest friends? Again the similarity to the reference to Noah's day and a very small number is told to us. Could it be that only those with the eyesight to see Him would? And do you really believe that the humble man Jesus who shrank from any form of worship would suddenly be different? Why would the Jesus who is "the same yesterday today and forever" be desirous of being seen by millions in the sky when He didn't then? And if He truly did appear as a physical being in the sky 16 feet tall wouldn't EVERYONE fall down and worship Him? Who wouldn't?
When Noah was building an ark, the vast majority mocked said he was off his rocker. When Jesus was here the the first time, the church of His day said he was mad too. Why would it be different now? When He died it is recorded that only two truly saw Him for Who He was. One was a thief who died at the same time and the other was a Roman Centurion who said that He was the Son of God. Why would things change now?
Hind sight is clearer than forsight. Yes it is easy to see all these things now, but if one were to examine their own heart (in its present state to see if it is %100 fully yielded to God) and finds there any area where sin is present then it is not hard to see where they would have stood during those times back then. That same honest position will reveal where that same person is presently. If the vision would have been clouded by sin back then, would it be any different now? How can a dishonest person come to an honest conclusion?
And another thought I had was this, I notice that you feel free in quoting the people of Travesser as if you are currently so thoroughly and completely familiar with them, even though by your own admission it has been some time since you have been intimate with them, that I wonder how you can be so sure of what you know they would say? I would hesitate to quote someone when I have not been with them for a number of years. I noticed that you even put their words in quote marks as if it is a current quote. Maybe they said that back then (years ago) but would those same people say the same thing today?
How does sleeping with two women prove sinlessness? Dear one I would like to ask you how does running around naked in the wilderness prove one to be a prophet? How does marrying a whore prove one to be led of God? It looks the opposite doesn't it? It looks sinful. How does a dream prove that God said it? Well these things don't prove anything, do they? But does anything need to be proven? Does God need to prove Himself? Doesn't He work on the principle of faith alone?
Does Wayne Bent claim to take the place of God? Your last thought seems to answer the question.
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God is the only one who is right. That is why we need the Lord to be our Righteousness.
Isn't the Church called "The Lord Our Righteousness" It is not called Wayne Bent our Righteousness is it? _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
Give me a break, you are redefining the word messiah loosely so that your Wayne Bent can be one too. When the word Messiah was used in the bible, it only referred to Jesus Christ. Daniel used the word when he foretold of Jesus' first coming predicting the very year of his birth. It was a specific word for a specific person (Jesus Christ) at a very specific time- the year of his birth. The only other time it is used in the bible is when the disciples were exclaiming to each other that THE Messiah had come. The long awaited Messiah had come. It was understood at that time to only mean Jesus Christ and at this time it is still understood to only mean Jesus Christ.
Wayne proclaimed himself Messiah, to be the Archangel Michael, which many also believe to be Christ. Now you say that it only means to be anointed? You are backpedalling, trying to make your message easier to swallow. You are hiding the objectionable parts of your beliefs which are in question. You avoid addressing these subjects because if people knew the bottom line in your beliefs, they would run.
Why do I feel comfortable stating the beliefs of the People of Travesser? It is because I was with you for 5 years and knew the beliefs inside out. Moreover, the views I brought up are still current and valid as your postings and website demonstrate.
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Hemet777 said:
"How does sleeping with two women prove sinlessness? Dear one I would like to ask you how does running around naked in the wilderness prove one to be a prophet? How does marrying a whore prove one to be led of God? It looks the opposite doesn't it? It looks sinful. How does a dream prove that God said it? Well these things don't prove anything, do they? But does anything need to be proven? Does God need to prove Himself? Doesn't He work on the principle of faith alone?"
So let's get this straight. You begin with the assumption that Wayne is God, therefore cannot sin. Therefore God (Wayne) doesnt need to prove anything, and we need to accept him as Messiah because he says so. It is all a matter of faith. How neat and tidy.
I understand how you believe that Wayne is dead to self, therefore it is not Wayne that does these things, but the Christ spirit within him. Therefore everything he does and says is right. To speak against him is to speak against God. Here's an implication for you. You have yourselves backed into a corner with no way of questioning whether or not Wayne is Christ incarnate as his second coming, -because to do so would be to question God in your minds. What about when the real Jesus returns?
God have mercy on you. I hope that you wake up to the truth before it is too late to marry the real Jesus in your hearts.
_________________
PacificAngel _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."
When the word Messiah was used in the bible, it only referred to Jesus Christ.
In Strongs Concordance Messiah is #04886
It is true that it is translated only two times as the word Messiah in Daniel 9:25,26 in the KJV. However the exact same word that is translated Messiah in those two verses is also used 67 other times in 64 other verses in the old testament.
Here is how it is defined by Strongs Concordance.
1) anointed, anointed one
a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
b) of the king of Israel
c) of the high priest of Israel
d) of Cyrus
e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings
This same word is used in:
Genesis 31:3 for anointing a pillar where a vow was made.
Exodus 28:41 for Aron and his sons as anointed (messiahed, set apart) as priests unto God in the sanctuary.
Exodus chapters 29, 30,40 as applied to the sacred instruments in the sanctuary service and Arons garments.
1Samuel when Samuel anointed (messiahed) Saul and David king of Israel.
1Kings 19 it is used when Hazael is anointed (messiahed, set apart for) to be king of Syria, Jehu is anointed (messiahed, set apart for) to be king of Israel and Elisha is anointed (messiahed, set apart as) prophet.
Isaiah said in chapter 61 that God had anointed him (messiahed, set apart) to preach the good tidings. This is the same verse that Jesus later quoted and was nearly killed for it. Why? Because he was claiming to have been anointed by God.
And God anointed Cyrus (an unconverted man) as shown in Isaiah 45:1
I use it exactly as it is used in scripture.
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at this time it is still understood to only mean Jesus Christ.
I do not see how you can say that anointed (Messiahed) applys only to Jesus Christ. It is clearly understood by God to be applied in many ways and to several people throughout scripture.
You said that the people of Travesser still say what you say they said. Could you point me to the place where you quoted them? I fail to find it here on this site or anywhere else. Evidently you know for you put the things you say they said in quotes.
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Wayne proclaimed himself Messiah, to be the Archangel Michael, which many also believe to be Christ. Now you say that it only means to be anointed? You are backpedalling, trying to make your message easier to swallow. You are hiding the objectionable parts of your beliefs which are in question. You avoid addressing these subjects because if people knew the bottom line in your beliefs, they would run.
Isaiah proclaimed himself to be anointed (Messiahed) and you do not have a problem with that do you? Why not? The scribes and pharisees had a problem with Jesus proclaiming himself anointed (Messiahed) when he read Isaiah 61. Why? Because he was tearing down and exposing the system of worship that they had as a fraud, full of errors and traditions of men. He as a real rebel wasn't he? He was such a problem that they had to silence him by death. Those who would silence Jesus then have the same spirit as those who would do the same now.
No I am not backpeddling at all. I am asking the same question again and answering all your questions in the process with scripture. I am not evading it or going around it. I am saying it exactly as God says it. Why can't you?
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You begin with the assumption that Wayne is God, therefore cannot sin. Therefore God (Wayne) doesnt need to prove anything, and we need to accept him as Messiah because he says so. It is all a matter of faith. How neat and tidy.
I did not begin with any assumptions. It would be absurd to even consider that Wayne Bent is God. God is God alone. I began with asking a question that I felt was necessary to be answered by the ability to "reason together" from scripture. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with being able to be honest about what has been done and could be happening again in plain sight yet not be "seen"?
And yes it is purely a matter of faith even at that. It seems to me that you have forgotten even the simplest of things that you say were true in the Lord Our Righteousness in the beginning. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God (the Sabbath, not commiting adultery, not stealing etc.) and the faith of Jesus." It is the faith of Jesus alone that can discern these things. But if one does not keep the commandments how can they have the faith of Jesus anyway? Suddenly one needs to have more faith or needs to work on his faith or try to get stronger faith or something, rather than having it as a Gift from God.
Was Noah set apart (anointed) by God for a specific task? Was Moses? Aron? the prophets? Jesus? Most decidedly yes. Can God anoint someone today for a specific task? What does scripture say?
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You have yourselves backed into a corner with no way of questioning whether or not Wayne is Christ incarnate as his second coming, -because to do so would be to question God in your minds.
I have answered all your questions here with scripture and reasoning. Will you answer mine now? God is happy to answer any question that a sincere mind is willing to ask. He has no problem with His people searching Him out and being able to "reason" with Him. God is never backed into a corner or unable to sweetly, quietly, patiently go through these things step by step with us.
To those who want to argue and fight and find an excuse He has no further answers. He sees that they are set in their own minds so He lets them leave their husbands for another and commit adultery with whoever they want. He lets them steal another man's wife's affections and his children with no heart towards the man whose wife and children he stole. He lets them pretend that they are really seeking God when they are just fooling themselves. Those who do this will never be married (united) to God. They will be found wanting and lost in the end. They are self-righteous thinking that they are not so wicked as others are. They think that those who do these things and write about it for all the world to read are wicked. Yet those who do it in a dark place and hide are better.
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God have mercy on you.
God is very merciful to those who show mercy. Remember the scripture says that we are forgiven as we forgive. _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
I know this was not your point but I think it important to clarify something here, you were writing about how crazy the prophets look to people around them and you wrote about Ezekiel:
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What about making a fire of human dung and eating the food baked over it, as Ezekiel did?
The truth here is that Ezekiel did not eat human dung, in fact in a round about way he told God, “No way!”
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Ezekiel 4:12-15 And thou shalt eat it [as] barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.
And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.
Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.
Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.
This is important because Ezekiel was not the only “prophet” to tell God “no” when God ask them to do something. Moses and the Rechabites also told God no, showing us that God doesn’t want a people who cannot question their Lord. If that is what He had wanted then God would have created robots for servants. Also it shows that sometimes God will ask His people to do something to see if there is any unrighteousness in them, to see if they will hold true to what is right or take His request as an excuse to do evil. This is important because this is actually what happened to Wayne when he shared with his son (Jeff) that God was telling him to have sex with Jody and Debbie. Jeff told his Dad, “Tell God no!” This was Wayne’s test, and he failed. How much Wayne could have furthered the truth of God's kingdom if he had not fell to his own lust and slept with those women. This act of his is perhaps the greatest stumbling block to what could have been his ministry for God, but now, in fact, he can only pollute God’s work by continuing to present himself (unrepentant) as God’s servant. He makes it even more a mockery since he insists he is the Christ.
Hemet777 you also wrote:
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The primary question seems to be one of whether Wayne Bent is Messiah or not….Is Wayne Bent the Messiah for today or not?
Actually Hemet you make it plain that he is not by your own statements here on this site:
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Only those who press to the end will see the salvation of their souls. One must be fully surrendered to God in all things else one is not surrendered at all. One sin will make the truth of none effect and cause the eyesight to be blinded.
In this statement you point out that Wayne has made “the truth of none effect” by his own double act of adultery with those two wives out there and he is now blinded to that fact of his sin to the point that he cannot repent of it. Which leads into this next statement that shows again that he is not:
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In Noah's day they were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage and knew not until it was too late. Jesus said it would be the same again. Didn't He? It is not too hard for one to take a serious moment to examine their own life within that framework to see if their life is a round of "marrying" and "giving in marriage".
Wayne has been married and divorce twice that I know of and not long after he divorced Sandy, he started claiming he was now married, not to just one but two women. Talk about your “round of marrying and giving in marriage.”
Also you wrote this:
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"Here are they that keep the commandments of God (the Sabbath, not commiting adultery, not stealing etc.) and the faith of Jesus." It is the faith of Jesus alone that can discern these things. But if one does not keep the commandments how can they have the faith of Jesus anyway?
Well said Hemet. How could Wayne even be said to have the faith of Jesus let alone be the second coming of Christ when he, without a doubt has broken the commandments of God through his actions with these women whom they call the “two witnesses”?
And then this, which also perfectly fits Wayne and his the two witnesses” to a tee:
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To those who want to argue and fight and find an excuse He has no further answers. He sees that they are set in their own minds so He lets them leave their husbands for another and commit adultery with whoever they want. He lets them steal another man's wife's affections and his children with no heart towards the man whose wife and children he stole. He lets them pretend that they are really seeking God when they are just fooling themselves. Those who do this will never be married (united) to God. They will be found wanting and lost in the end.
Bravo Hemet! You set out asking a question whether or not Wayne could be Messiah and made it very clear he cannot be. You have pointed out yourself, anyone in sin, breaking the commandments of God can not possibly be Messiah [meaning here - the sinless Lamb of God], or even led by Jesus Christ. All these descriptions I quoted from what you wrote fits Wayne Bent very well if anyone. I know there are those who keep trying to say that Wayne hasn’t committed adultery because of this or that reason, but how could anyone still be so foolish as to believe their stories after all that has been written here on this forum about this subject of Wayne’s so called Messiahship or so blind to still believe Wayne is Messiah? But as you pointed out, they only believe it because they want to believe it. They have no real proof to their claims about Wayne. His acts out there in the desert has proved nothing except he is just another sinful, dirty old man.
This last "dirty old man" statement of mine reminds me of the time Wayne asked to women in the LOR not to wear pants because their pants kept forming an arrow that directed his eyes to their crotches. Perhaps Wayne should have dealt with his lust instead of putting the responsiblity of his lust on the women there. _________________ Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
Just because someone is anointed, such as David for instance, does not make him the Messiah. There have been many anointed, but only ONE Messiah.
That is like saying, because I am a rectangle, I am a square. But that is not so. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Just because there have been many anointed ones, doesnt mean there have been many messiahs. "Anointed" and "Messiah" are not interchangeable. The name messiah carries greater implications, especially since there is only ONE Messiah. Not several men filled with the Christ spirit being several messiahs, but one Messiah, the man Jesus Christ. This is where the man Jesus Christ is now...
"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
By the way, it is a literal man (Jesus Christ) offering one sacrifice - a literal death on the cross, not sleeping with two women (some cross, Wayne!), and he is literally sitting down on the right hand of God in a real heaven, not just your heaven on earth out in the desert. It was Jesus Christ who framed the worlds with his words and it was the perfect Son of God who came out of God - not adopted, but was begotten of God. Only he could make that sacrifice for us. Who are you trying to kid Wayne? You cannot possibly be this Jesus Christ, and so your only hope is to rewrite the bible by saying there are more than one messiah... Not to mention the problem of if you are Christ (Messiah, Michael the Archangel) then where is Jesus now? Is that why you said he was still dead and only his spirit rose? That really takes away from the resurrection, doesnt it? It takes away from who Jesus is in order to build yourself up. Wasnt being a child of God and sitting at his feet to learn enough for you?
Only Jesus can make the sacrifice for us as the spotless Son of God. All the rest of us are adopted- that is the only way we can claim being his children- through adoption. Hey, it works for me.
Jesus says, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman." John 15:1 and "I am the vine, you are branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me, ye can do nothing."
Just because we are part of the grape plant doesnt make us the vine. We are branches, and without Jesus as our true vine, we can do nothing. Not only are we only branches, but we are grafted in as well. As the branches, we have HIS life in us, but we cannot replace the vine which gives us life. Without him we can do nothing but die.
Jesus said that none could come to the Father except through him. Our message is to point to Jesus as our salvation, not Wayne.
_____________________
PacificAngel _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."
To those who want to argue and fight and find an excuse He has no further answers. He sees that they are set in their own minds so He lets them leave their husbands for another and commit adultery with whoever they want. He lets them steal another man's wife's affections and his children with no heart towards the man whose wife and children he stole. He lets them pretend that they are really seeking God when they are just fooling themselves. Those who do this will never be married (united) to God. They will be found wanting and lost in the end. They are self-righteous thinking that they are not so wicked as others are. They think that those who do these things and write about it for all the world to read are wicked. Yet those who do it in a dark place and hide are better.
I will say the same thing a little plainer now.
To those who want to argue and fight and find an excuse, God has no further answers. He sees that they are set in their own minds so God lets Tori leave Tony for Tim and commit adultery with whoever they want. God lets Tim steal Tony's wife's affections and his children with no heart towards Tony whose wife and children he stole. He lets Tori and Tim pretend that they are really seeking God when they are just fooling themselves. Tim and Tori who do this will never be married (united) to God because they have each other now. Tori and Tim are found wanting and lost in these final moments of critical end times. They are self-righteous thinking that they are not so wicked as others are. They think tha Michael Travesser who writes about it for all the world to read is wicked. Yet Tori and Tony who do it in a dark place and hide are better.
I have nothing further to say on this matter, for your hearts are very hard against God, and Tony, yet you feel so self-righteous and safe in calling another wicked when your own hearts condition is what is blinding you to the truth of how salvation works.
Go and be satisified with what you have. God wants you to be deceived. _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
You are so funny. I dont have anything to hide, you must be projecting that. I left Tony because he was abusive to both me and the children, and I no longer felt safe. It is too bad you believed his story about what happened. I could say much more to clarify what was going on, but I dont wish to expose Tony. Love covers a multitude of sins.
Now I am with a man who loves us. Yes I will be getting remarried. Get over it. I have news for you, marrying and giving in marriage are not sinful. I know you dissolved all marriages out there so that you could be married to God (Wayne). I could understand if you all wanted to be monks or nuns and devote yourselves to God, it could be a good thing. But when you throw Wayne into the equation, how can it be a blessing? Did you know that a person can be married to a spouse on earth and also be married to God as our heavenly husband? There is no conflict, for a godly marriage teaches us truth about our relationship to Jesus Christ. That is why he created marriage and that is why he used it as an object lesson.
Ive never claimed to be infallible, and I serve a loving, forgiving God. Thank you, I will be satisfied with what I have. I am truly blessed.
Hemet wrote:
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"I have nothing further to say on this matter, for your hearts are very hard against God, and Tony, yet you feel so self-righteous and safe in calling another wicked when your own hearts condition is what is blinding you to the truth of how salvation works. "
I know you got the names mixed up on your post, but I couldnt have worded it better concerning Tony. How interesting.
___________________
PacificAngel _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."
I left Tony because he was abusive to both me and the children, and I no longer felt safe.
If you think you are following scripture and Michael Travesser is not, then you are very clearly pointing the finger at yourself. If you want to follow the strict letter of the law as you say Michael should, then you are obviously doing EXACTLY what you accuse him of doing. That is the point. How can you come on a forum and post how that what he is doing is so wrong, yet do the same thing is beyond me? If you want to stick strictly to the letter of the law as you say he should have, then you commited adultery and caused Tim to do the same. You have not a shred of scriptural grounds to leave Tony. You snuck around behind his back in this affair and now you are justifying it????? Wayne clearly announced what he was going to do BEFORE anything was done, got the permission of the previous spouses and did it with the entire camps knowlege. There was nearly 6 months of time that lapsed from the moment of announcement and the actual event. Everyone knew and he even asked others to come and TELL him what he had done. They had to be explicit in the knowlege of it. Did you do that???? Not at all. It was the exact opposite.
Tony is adamantly opposed and hurt by it. So what if he was abusive? Did you need to find someone else in the process? You could have followed scriptural grounds (as you say Wayne should do) and just left and let him figure it out and come to terms with it. By so doing you could have brought him to his senses. And your children would still have their father in the process. Did you and Tim talk to him and tell him what you were going to do BEFORE you formed this unholy alliance? Did you give him time to consider the ramifications of what you were going to do with Tim? No, he thought Tim was coming there for another reason than what took place. Yes, you were hiding and sneaking around.
So how can you be so upset at what Michael Travesser did, can clearly describe it, can write posts about how wrong it is and so unscriptural, annnounce it publicly for all to read and so they can see how wicked he is, but not talk about yourself doing the same thing? This is laughable to me. I am nearly rolling on the floor as I consider it. What Michael is doing is wrong and clearly he is leading people to hell, yet you are doing the same thing and have only good things to say about it. huh??????? Are you sooooooo blind that you cannot see this? No I do not see that you can point, accuse, critise, denouce and publicly declare Michael Travesser and his followers as going to hell when you are in the bed that you describe.
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Now I am with a man who loves us. Yes I will be getting remarried.
Huh???? So you can admit the affair and call it something different than what Michael did?
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Get over it.
Go ahead and do the same with Michael Travesser then. Tell everyone on this forum then to get over and that it is OK with you, since you did what you accused him of and now it is fine with you. Tell others that what he did was announced ahead of time, digested, understood and done in full view of the people and clearly written about and clearly described on the internet for all to read. Tell everyone that you snuck around and did not write it out, describe it in detail and that you did it without Tony's permission. Tell the whole story and not the convenient parts that you want left out.
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I know you dissolved all marriages out there so that you could be married to God (Wayne).
That is was the purpose of the consummation. It was so everyone could be married to God alone. Ask Michael Travesser if that was the purpose of the consummation or was it to just get out of an abusive situation as you did? No it was not to get out of an abusive situation. It was so others could get a clear picture of what it means to be married to God alone. It was EXACTLY what the cross of Jesus was all about.
Jesus did not die to be the only one to die. He died to show you what to do with your sinful selfish self. He showed in graphic form what the cost of sin is. He showed by his own sacrifice what sin does. It separates man from God. He was not a sterile God hanging on some cross so others could point there and smile and have a good time at church. It was a bloody, terrible thing that cost him ALL he was and ALL that he had and ALL that he ever could be. That is your cost too. Few, very very few are willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING for God as Jesus said they should do. Why? Because it is NOT pretty, not comfortable, not fun and not understood by the casual observer of it. Jesus did NOT want to go there, but did anyway.
That is the same way the consummation of Michael should be viewed, not as simply some sexual act. It was not neat, tidy and some fun sexual fling. It was a terribly hard thing to do when one takes the time to consider the hurt, pain, frustration and mental anguish that it costs others in the process. Did you do that with Tony? Did you consider the pain that it would cause him? Or were you only considering yourself and what you wanted? Michael Travesser saw, felt and considered all the pain and hurt it would cause others and described it in advance. Is it even possible for you to consider that just as Jesus did not want to die a bloody death that Wayne did not want to go through with the consummation? There are some who find the sexual act not enjoyable. There are some who find much more creative ways to find lifes simple pleasures than in sex. Is it possible for you to consider that it was not even in his thinking prior to this event? For someone who is commiting adultery and who finds the sexual act pleasureable and who has left their lawful husband of many years and has had children by that husband, it is probably not conceivable.
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But when you throw Wayne into the equation, how can it be a blessing?
I just did in the previous paragraphs if you are even willing to take a few moments of time and consider it. I am writing this for ALL to read who may stumble across this.
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Did you know that a person can be married to a spouse on earth and also be married to God as our heavenly husband?
NO NO NO NO NO It is impossible. Just as you cannot be married to Tim and Tony at the same time so is it impossible there too. God does not want you to kinda go to the cross and kinda give up certain things. It requires a full sacrifice to serve God. It requires everything you have, are and ever hope to be. That is why you cannot even begin to grasp the full significance of the cross of Jesus Christ. That is why the consummation makes no sense to you and is sinful. You are NOT willing to sacrifice all for God. If you can admit that, then you might begin to understand a little beter the truth of the cross of Christ and what it takes.
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There is no conflict, for a godly marriage teaches us truth about our relationship to Jesus Christ. That is why he created marriage and that is why he used it as an object lesson.
So your adulterous relationship to Tim and future marriage is the example for the universe to look at, to examine closely, write down for all to read, describe in clear detail every occurence of it and studied? Is that how we should see the truth of a relationship to Jesus Christ?
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Ive never claimed to be infallible,
Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48
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Thank you, I will be satisfied with what I have. I am truly blessed.
So you have commited adultery and so has Tim. Now you will have an adulterous marriage after that and you are satisfied with that too. God is not in the picture in that kind of a relationship and you are satisifed with that too.
Good luck
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I know you got the names mixed up on your post, but I couldnt have worded it better concerning Tony. How interesting.
Nope I did not get the names mixed up. I worded it exactly as it was written. Both your hearts are hard against God AND Tony.
And how interesting to me that you agreed that your heart is hard against God and Tony. _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
"Yet Tori and Tony who do it in a dark place and hide are better.
I have nothing further to say on this matter, for your hearts are very hard against God, and Tony, yet you feel so self-righteous and safe in calling another wicked when your own hearts condition is what is blinding you to the truth of how salvation works."
Hemet, I apologize. I misread the second part. When you got the names mixed up earlier in the paragraph above, I thought you were still doing that. What I thought you had said was that "and Tony, yet you feel so self-righteous and safe in calling another wicked when your own hearts condition is what is blinding you to the truth of how salvation works." I thought you were accidently saying Tony was doing that, and that is what I was commenting about. But I understand what you meant to say now. Im not going to agree that my heart is hardened against God and Tony. Who are you to judge me? God alone is my judge. I have received forgiveness for where I sinned. Did I ever claim to be sinless? Not that it is any of your business.
Once again, you believe that if you can point out sin or error in me, that I cannot make observations or state the truth. You did ask is Wayne the Messiah? I was simply answering no, how could he be, and you feel the need to make a personal attack of it. Did I ever claim to be perfect and without fault? I need a savior just as every human being does. That includes Wayne.
I have been simply trying to answer your question, whether Wayne Bent was Messiah or not.
Hemet777 wrote
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"Tony is adamantly opposed and hurt by it. So what if he was abusive?"
Well I can see what kind of a man you must be. I dont need to defend myself to you. You only twist my words and think that I am evil because I wont accept your Messiah, Wayne. What is the sense in asking if Wayne is Messiah if you are not willing to hear an answer? It is simply a setup to attack someone if they do not agree.
My motivation has been to tell the truth about how your group is. My initial post was actually in your defense!! and then I was attacked because some of the observations were too close to home. I care about the people out there still and hate to see them caught up in this. Twist it all you want to, but that is the truth.
___________________
PacificAngel _________________ "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."
Your initial desire to separate from the people of God and think you can be an independent atom, started you on the path which you are now on. It was just like Eve separating from Adam. She ate the fruit and at first felt a sense of exhiliration at her new freedom. Then in her emboldened state she offered the fruit she ate to Adam. When the truth came out they were both naked and cast out of the garden by their sin. But the thing that started it all was Eve wandering from her Husbands side and being separate. You were in the same position as Eve at one time, but you have progressed even farther now. Your first separation finally led you to feel free to see Tony as an oppressor and gave you freedom to separate from him too. Now your sin of adultery with Tim has destroyed any and all true faith that would give you eyes to see anything at all. It is so sad, but so true that I can barely take it in.
You say I judged you, but you have judged yourself by your actions. You say I judge you and who am I? Well you seem free to judge Wayne, but that is OK? So who are you to judge? Why is it that you feel free to say to Wayne what you say should not be said to you? Why is it that you feel free to say he is commiting adultery when you are doing exactly that? Why is it you cannot address this issue?
This is so strange to me. I see people just like you everywhere who feel free to judge others, but when their own life is exposed then the one speaking is suddenly "judging" like it is something sinful. It is so strange to see people everywhere trying to save the people of God from sin when they are living in sin. And oddly it is usually the same sin that they think the peopel of God are commiting. Didn't Jesus say he that is without sin cast the first stone? All I have heard you and Tim do is cast stones at Wayne. Yet when someone comes along and exposes your own sin then the words are "twisted". It is so strange that even God cannot understand it. It is called the mystery of iniquity. The devil accused God of doing what he was doing. It is the same today. Nothing has changed.
Tori, I have known you and loved you for a long time. My heart has always gone out to you, your children and your husband, Tony. I can still see your bright happy face in the last meetings that we had where we were together. I felt back then that there was a spark in you. I saw the child Jesus in you back then. That is why I felt inclined to try and reach you once again. But sad to say, I am now going to let you go. That bright face is gone and the child Jesus that was in you has been aborted. Now there are only words of accusation and self-preservation.
Be as happy as you can with Tim. This is the only heaven you will ever know. Tim is your adulterous husband, not God. The pit that you have dug has no bottom. Right now it may not look bad to you. The fruit that you are eating may have a sweet taste in your mouth, but it is the fruit of the serpent. It is the fruit of the father of lies. Your own desires have taken you to a horrible position. I guarantee you that one day you will wake up to your true condition and you will see what you have done to yourself, your children, to Tony and even to Tim. But it will be too late to make amends and return to God. It already is. You see righteousness as evil and evil as good. Why would you want to go back to something that is evil?
Goodbye _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
Pro 20:10 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD.
Hemet, this verse expresses the purpose of my last post if not all of my posts concerning Wayne. You kept tossing spears and daggers at us (under the disguise wanting to find truth when really you just had your own personal banner to wave), saying our adultery is evil and that Wayne‘s adultery is a good and holy act of God. You are using “divers weight, divers measures”. I just wanted to show that anything you condemn us of, must also be applied to Wayne because he has committed the same sins as us. There is no true difference. You and Wayne are trying to make a difference between the two by saying that everyone out there were in agreement with it and therefore makes his actions good, not sinful. But what then makes your little group any different from any other group of “swingers? Your definition of what makes your actions right also make these swinger groups right. You can know for sure they also agreed to swap wives and husbands, plan on it even. If agreement is what make actions right then what the nine hundred plus followers of Jim Jones did was the right thing when they committed suicide. Also what the Heaven Gates people did was the right thing, according to your definition as to what makes things right, when they killed themselves to catch that presumed spaceship behind the Hale-Bopp comet. Again I will say that you are using “divers weight, diver measures” which are an “abomination to the Lord.” Sin is sin and if Jesus had sinned he could not have been Messiah, for he would have needed a sacrifice for his own sins.
As far as me saying my actions with Tori were okay but Wayne’s are not - I have said nothing of the the sort. I have never said anywhere that my actions with Tori were okay. I don’t go to church at this point of my life because I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I don’t even call my self a Christian at this point because I am still trying to work through all that has happened to me through my interactions with the LOR as I wrote before in a earlier post:
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I lost everything I had worked for those eleven years I was in the LOR. I lost my wife, my friends, and ultimately my faith. So now I am in the process of trying to put back the pieces of my life that were ransacked through this experience. I am trying to believe that God still loves me even though I am a horrible mess. Trying to get back to the way I was the day before I joined the LOR when I was starting to finally believe that God was my friend and love was the answer to all of mankind problems. I know God never excuses sin but my hope is that He will work with me again where I am at.
Hemet you keep making statements about us that are just not true. But as far as my statements concerning Wayne, I have tried only to write what I have seen and heard for myself. I was there for eleven years and have had direct communications since then with different people who are still out there. You say things about what went on between Tony and us as though you were actually there, but for the life of me I cannot remember you being out there with us. Therefore how can you possibly know my motivations? But facts are facts Hemet, it does not matter how pure my motives may or may not been, adultery is adultery, sin is sin and I will not excuse in myself or anyone else for that matter. But unlike you, Hemet, who wrote in you last post that Tori was without hope:
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I guarantee you that one day you will wake up to your true condition and you will see what you have done to yourself, your children, to Tony and even to Tim. But it will be too late to make amends and return to God. It already is.
I am not going to say that Wayne is without hope of salvation. I have only pointed out as long as he continues to claim to be the second coming of Christ, he places himself in a place in which he cannot repent and receive Jesus as his Redeemer.
Hemet, if you loved Wayne you would stop worshipping him and see things as they are, not what you want to believe they are. That Wayne cannot save himself, let alone anyone else. That he needs to humble himself before Jesus the true Lamb of God, not replace Him.
Ellen White wrote:
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No man can look within himself and find anything in his character that will recommend him to God, or make his acceptance sure. It is only through Jesus, whom the Father gave for the life of the world, that the sinner may find access to God. Jesus alone is our Redeemer, our Advocate and Mediator; in Him is our only hope for pardon, peace, and righteousness. It is by virtue of the blood of Christ that the sin-stricken soul can be restored to soundness. . . . {AG 183.3}
And one last thought concerning that fanatical statement you made earlier that married people cannot be one with God. “NO NO NO NO NO It is impossible” is how you put it. Here’s some verses to consider:
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1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
_________________ Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
saying our adultery is evil and that Wayne‘s adultery is a good and holy act of God.
Could you copy that quote of mine and post it again for me? I seem to fail to find it.
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You are using “divers weight, divers measures”. I just wanted to show that anything you condemn us of, must also be applied to Wayne because he has committed the same sins as us. There is no true difference.
So you admit that you are lost and going to hell and leading others to do the same? This is how you describe Michael Travesser and his condition. So I assume you must see yourself in the same position as you see him? Correct? And that what you did was in direct violation of God and an unholy alliance?
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You and Wayne are trying to make a difference between the two by saying that everyone out there were in agreement with it and therefore makes his actions good, not sinful.
I never said that because everyone was in agreement with it that made his actions holy and not sinful. Please find that quote too. I said that there was an initial difference between what he did and what you did in that he did not sneak around even at the beginning as you did. What he did was out in the open even from the start.
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But what then makes your little group any different from any other group of “swingers?” Your definition of what makes your actions right also make these swinger groups right. You can know for sure they also agreed to swap wives and husbands, plan on it even.
No one else had the consummation except Michael. And just a thought about that for you to consider. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was the ONLY sacrifice that was needed to show how to die to self. If ANYONE else were to die on a cross as he did and try to make it look like his was, then that person would be an imposter and the death would be an abomination. No one can take His place on that cross, for none was needed but his alone.
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Sin is sin and if Jesus had sinned he could not have been Messiah, for he would have needed a sacrifice for his own sins.
True, I agree. And the same thing applies to Michael Travesser. If what he had done was not done as Messiah then it would have been a sin and he would have needed a Savior. However if ANYONE else had done what Noah had done or if he had lied then the ark would have been sinful. Same thing applies to Hosea marrying a whore and Elijah killing 450 prophets of Baal. Is it not written, "Thou shalt not kill?" So shouldn't you be writing about Elijah and that what he did was sinful and he was worthy of death? Which is more sinful--to sleep with two women or kill 450 men? Wouldn't one be a mass serial killer?
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As far as me saying my actions with Tori were okay but Wayne’s are not - I have said nothing of the the sort. I have never said anywhere that my actions with Tori were okay. I don’t go to church at this point of my life because I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I don’t even call my self a Christian . . .
Then why are you still doing it? Why not repent and stop? And how can you even begin to understand what it means to be a Christian if you are not one? How can you even post on this forum and begin to make judgements about what it means to be a Christian if you are not one? hmmmm that sounds like what a hypocrite would do to me. Doesn't a man who condemns drinking in another but does it himself a hypocrite?
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I lost everything I had worked for those eleven years I was in the LOR. I lost my wife, my friends, and ultimately my faith. So now I am in the process of trying to put back the pieces of my life that were ransacked through this experience. I am trying to believe that God still loves me even though I am a horrible mess. Trying to get back to the way I was the day before I joined the LOR when I was starting to finally believe that God was my friend and love was the answer to all of mankind problems. I know God never excuses sin but my hope is that He will work with me again where I am at.
Ok, then you can start by separating from another man's wife and return her and her children back to where you stole them from and tell Tony that you are willing to make whatever amends are necessary to try and undo all the damage done. You can separate from Tori and let her figure out between her and God how to put together her life between her and God without you since you are a thief and liar.
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Hemet you keep making statements about us that are just not true.
Could you copy them for me so I can make right what I said about you that was wrong?
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You say things about what went on between Tony and us as though you were actually there, but for the life of me I cannot remember you being out there with us.
I know you very well.
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Therefore how can you possibly know my motivations?
I do not know your motives, but I do know what you did.
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I guarantee you that one day you will wake up to your true condition and you will see what you have done to yourself, your children, to Tony and even to Tim. But it will be too late to make amends and return to God. It already is.
This is still true. I will not alter this at all.
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And one last thought concerning that fanatical statement you made earlier that married people cannot be one with God. “NO NO NO NO NO It is impossible” is how you put it.
So you know of one marriage where the people are NEVER in disagreement? Where they NEVER fight, argue, bicker or have a cross word? Is your relationship to Tori an example for all to follow? How could you even begin to understand what a true marriage is like, when you do not have one yourself and never have had one that was right? _________________ Hemet (subjective truth) 777 complete continous perfection of God
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