The People of Travesser

PacificAngel · is under review Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 13

I was a member of Wayne Bent's group for several years, and I would like to comment on what I saw. When I was with them, they were basically Adventist in doctrine for the most part. I will agree with Solomon and Moigboi, that the sincerity and zeal were wonderful... there was no luke-warmness going on there. The fellowship was close like family... how a church should be. People were trying to live by a "Thus saith the Lord", and I learned alot with them, both bible and Ellen White. There came a point that they ran ahead of the Lord and began to stray from scripture and warnings from Spirit of Prophesy. In their zeal to be with God and to translate, they began to seek to make it happen, not waiting for God's timing. They began to set dates for Christ's second coming, and when he didnt come in the clouds of glory, instead of admitting their error, they did the "infalliable church" thing and covered their mistake by saying... "Christ did return, he returned in our hearts. If you dont know that, it is because he didnt return in yours." So pressure was created in the group to be "in step" and I saw people so desperate for that experience that some began to fake it. They began to look to the ministers to define their relationship with God, instead of being secure in Jesus. Alot of people left the group, and slowly the ones that were left looked more and more to Wayne. I was out of the group then. I asked one member who was sharing with me their message about Wayne being Messiah, "Wasnt Jesus and the bible enough to save us? Why do you need Wayne to be Messiah?" Her reply was that they were so lost and so bad that they needed Messiah to come again. I know Jesus gave all that was needed on the cross.

In years past, they were much more biblical. Also, being an offshoot, they took alot of responsibility upon themselves by not having long estabolished church to lean upon for their salvation. This tends to give vigor to the spirituality as we realize that it is the relationship between us and God that we are saved by. As more and more trust was given to the ministers to define the individual's relationship, people's responsibility for their salvation was shifted to them, until the inevitable outcome that the leader was to BE the salvation. People shift their responsiblity all the time these days... It started in the garden "it was the woman you gave me..." Adam insinuated God was responsible for his sin.

People shift their responsibility for their health to their doctor. That does two things... one thing is that they get dont take care of themselves like they should because the doc can fix it. When we do that, we not only give up our God given responsiblity, but we empower them to be more than they were intended to be. The same things happen with ministers. When we trust in them to be our link between God and us, we tend to do less study for ourselves, and give the minister more responsibility and power than he was meant to have. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Mr. Shubert, to set the record straight, while the group was largely conservative Adventists in an offshoot, there was a lot said that was going on there that definitely was not. I was there. Just be careful not to believe everything that is written about them, as a lot of it is sensational. Let the facts speak for themselves, just as you let the bible explain itself. They have gone far enough off course without blowing things out of proportion.
_________________
"Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."

Mirror · is under review Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 3

I once knew a woman years ago who was a member of that group. She had her own, unique way of looking at things even though her perspective was independent of those with whom she fellowshipped. While some might view her as being 'self-deceived', she was certain that she was following the Voice of God.

This young woman was married to a man whom she was known to "quietly" complain and fret about to others. It was arguably the one thing that she was known for above all others. As you will see, in doing this she had created her own future.

At one time, this woman went around saying that God told her that she was pregnant with twin girls. She would go about relating this story to those she met. She even had names picked out for the promised ones. So, time went on, she continuing to tell everyone she could about what God had told her. Well, as it turned out, she didn't have what she expected. No, she didn't have twins, nor did she have a girl. She wasn't even pregnant. Yes, she made it all up and attributed it to God. Whether she learned anything from that experience is not clear.

It wasn't long before she and her husband left that group. Her testimony was that God had told her to follow her husband (the one she was known to complain about) and they soon joined a local SDA congregation and became good Adventists. No, she was still not satisfied with her husband and that went on for about ten more years until one day an "old friend" of this couple called asking if he could visit them. This "friend" they had met years prior and shared a common comraderie of having had the good sense to leave that "errant cult." So, the friend came to visit more than once for some days at a time, and they had a good time relating the past. As the husband would be gone working during the days, this Adventist woman and the visiting"friend" began to get "friendlier". In short order the woman left her husband of over fifteen years and ran off with the "friend". Several friends and acquaintances offered sound council for her to reconsider her ways and change her course, but she would have none of it.

The point in relating this poor woman's plight is that she didn't need an "errant cult" to distort her view of reality, for she had done quite a spectacular job on her own. Living by her flesh and disregarding the Word of God she made off with one equally proud and self-deceived as herself.

Of these the Bible accurately says:

"For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate silly and weak-natured and spiritually-dwarfed women, loaded down with the burden of their sins and easily swayed and led away by various evil desires and seductive impulses."
2nd Timothy 3.6, Amplified

PacificAngel · is under review Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 13

Well, despite the attempt at character assassignation, everything I wrote in the previous post is still true.

God knows the real story and he is my judge.
_________________
"Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."

PacificAngel · is under review Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 13

Im not going to let you get away with calling me a liar. I didnt just "make it all up" like you said. I was pregnant.

I had a miscarriage, and during the very time I was miscarrying, one of the ministers of the LOR gave a sermon about miscarriage (including the gory details of a miscarriage) equating it to being hopelessly lost. I held on to the hope that maybe I hadnt lost the baby for a while, but I just wasnt getting bigger, so I got a pregnancy test. It is hard enough losing a baby without the idea that you are damned for it as well. It was the midwife with the group that told me she felt twins, and I had a lot of twins in my family, so that made sense. Another church member dreamed that I had girls, and because it was the popular belief of the group that everyone was hearing the Voice of God, I believed it. Funny how you would use that against me now.

This cold-heartedness and subtle deception are trademarks of the leadership of this group. My first post was more in their defense because I believe they got some things right. But it was this lack of sensitivity and double talk that I am glad to be away from.

As far as my quiet complaining about my husband goes, I wish I had complained louder and gotten help out of that abusive relationship sooner.

I was faithfully married to my husband for 17 years, and I dont believe God wanted my children and I to remain in an abusive environment, thankyou.

Wasnt this the same group that disolved all marriages and made statements that "If you even argue with your wife, you are not married?"

I believe the reason you attacked me like this was because I hit the nail on the head with my first post. The truth stings, doesnt it? It is sad because when I was with this group, I viewed them as family. I had no idea that they really felt this way about me. Too bad. If I was decieved, it was in believing that this group was full of love. Yes, there were some good people I remember, but it seems that the group has waxed colder and colder.

Bottom line, don't put your trust in men, but in God. And by the way, Wayne is not God.
_________________
"Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."

Mirror · is under review Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 3

Pacific Angel,

If you go back and read my earlier post you will notice that I intentionally did not reveal the woman's identity publicly, but said enough so that she could recognise herself in it, and perhaps receive a little reality check and be humbled by it privately. Two of the key elements of character assassination are that the target is publicly identified, and that it is done for the purpose of swaying public opinion. I did neither of these, for I had no desire that you be publicly exposed. I did not call anyone a liar.

Regarding your earlier post where you said:

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 28

Mirror wrote:

Mirror · is under review Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 3

Pacific Angel,

I do not dispute that at some point in time you had a miscarriage. From your description here of your miscarriage it certainly sounds like you are confusing two separate and unrelated events. In your post above, you refer to one "baby", I'm referring to what you had said then, which was "twins". The twins you were going to name Angela and Nadine, if you remember. I am referring to the false pregnancy you experienced where you went around saying that God told you that you were pregnant with twin girls, and then when you discovered that you were in fact not pregnant, you shared a tearful testimony in the local church saying that you discovered you were not pregnant when you had your cycle, that you had wanted to believe you were pregnant so much that you were willing to take anything as evidence that you were pregnant, and that you figured what you mistook for twins moving were gas bubbles. Yes, you said "gas bubbles." You DID NOT say anything about a miscarriage when you gave that testimony. More than just I recall this. So, you say I called you a liar when I was just repeating what you said.

I would have preferred sending the above statement as a private message had you not responded publicly in the manner you did. Coorespondingly I saw it needed to be answered publicly.

The point remains the same as in my first post:

PacificAngel · is under review Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 13

Well Mirror, I will repeat what I had posted earlier, as I thought it crystal clear about what had happened.

Messenger · is under review Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Posts: 1

Writing a response to this thread is the last thing I would have thought I'd be doing. But after reading it, the Father woke me up in the night and began speaking to the root of the controversy here. So, I will relate the thoughts and principles He shared.

First I want to say, Pacific Angel, that I am one who was there in the local gathering where you gave that testimony, and I remember it as Mirror said. I think it stands out in my mind because it was such a precious act of vulnerability on your part. It was the kind of thing that shows the influence of the Holy Spirit, the willingness to bear the humiliation of bearing your heart like you did. I had been with you through your process, and I remember feeling very tender toward what you were going through, and your willingness to be publicly "naked" and exposed about it. But yes, I have to say, I do distinctly remember "gas bubbles," and that you said you were not really pregnant at all.

If you later determined that you had a miscarriage, I never knew about it. But I know Mirror's whole intent was simply to show that the responsibility for errant views among the people has always been individual, and cannot be blamed on the spirit and principles which have governed this little company all these years.

Eighteen years ago I was crying out for deliverance from my sins and shortcomings. I knew not where to turn. I embraced the precious truths that God gave the Adventist church, but the doctrines could not save me from my sins. I knew there was a real salvation to be had, not just pretend or "some day soon" or "by faith." But where was it, and how would it come? In answer to my cries, Father promptly sent two messengers from the LOR. They shared the message of receiving the Faith of Jesus, and I knew it was true. I knew this was my deliverance, and it truly has been.

I also saw, right from the beginning, the intense persecution that came from those who didn't believe in this Gift, or didn't want it -- which was the great majority of those who heard. I had never seen anything like the commotion it caused among them. I watched people fabricate lies about things that happened, that I was right there involved in and eyewitness to. They put twists on things and said outright lies. It was the first time I realized the dark spirit and purposes that run the modern media, what a "spin" is, and how viciously Satan hates and fights against the Truth.

But from the beginning, I saw that the Fire of God rested upon this body. I recognized it, and I knew that it was by the Holy Spirit Himself that I did. The same Spirit Who had given me a clean heart. I watched Father's purposes develop through the years, and through those early years I watched fanatical elements and offenses in our midst be made manifest and brought to the light. Pacific Angel mentioned some of them, although she attributed these things to the church itself, which is not accurate. The Millerites were given a bad name for the same reason. God must often let unholy things grow and develop for a time, to make manifest their true character and to give those involved time to see and repent. This of course is biblical and necessary. It is why God didn't just snuff Lucifer out right at the start, and has permitted all the sorrow and heartache to go on. This is what it has always been about -- to reveal the hearts of men. And this is what the purification process that the Father has conducted in this little company has been all about, from the beginning. He would at last have a pure church, and this is how He has set forth to accomplish it -- by fire. We scarcely know the evil of our own hearts, as the scriptures say: "Who can know it?" But at the bottom of it is always what it was with Lucifer himself: Offense.

Unlike anything I'd ever seen before, however, I watched through the years as this church was purified and kept clean by the Holy Spirit. It has never failed. Once unclean spirits were fully exposed, they could never stay. Either the spirit left, or the person left with it. There have been no exceptions to this. And this is what makes "this group" stand apart from any other I have ever encountered. Truly the Fire of God has kept this body.

But very few are truly willing to "dwell in everlasting burnings." For most, a point comes where the soul says, "Thus far and no further," and beyond that, they become offended with the fire, blame it on the constructs of man or on circumstances, and go away. At that point, their mind and perceptions change, like the flip of a switch. I have seen it again and again. The bottom line is always that people do not want to take responsibility for their evil. So they make up a story about how others are at fault, to justify themselves. This is the root of alcoholism and all addiction and personal dysfunction; it is the very root of sin itself, and has been a testing truth.

In response to your post, Solomon: Don't ever think Jesus didn't administer fire to His beloved disciples.

"O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither." Lu 9:41

"Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men." Mr 8:33

"Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard... And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Lk 7:22-23

Note here, Jesus did not come right out and say John was offended with him; it was only insinuated. But it was said so that the Holy Spirit Himself could speak to John's heart whatever He would. So has this same Spirit of Christ spoken to those beloved ones in the LOR.

In a nutshell: if we identify with our natural man -- the ego, the one that wants a kingdom of its own -- we will be offended in Jesus, Who asks us to give everything up, "yea and your own life also." We will feel attacked. If we identify with the Anointing, we welcome the fire that burns and stings and offends the natural man, for we know that if we are feeling that, it is something of the natural self that is feeling it, that the Father is wanting us to see it and come to terms with it so that we can be healed. We go ahead and let it be offended clear to the death, rather than resist, keeping self alive. Jesus said, "Offenses WILL come." Why? Because the natural man, and all who keep it, WILL BE offended.

"But woe unto him through whom they come." This must apply to a spirit that intentionally seeks to offend -- that is, to stir up anger and hatred, or to "get back." But Jesus Himself certainly offended many. In fact, most. But His purpose was, and ever is, to convict the heart so that it may see its evil and repent. "He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul. He did not censure human weakness. He fearlessly denounced hypocrisy, unbelief, and iniquity, but tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebukes." DA p. 353

Yet much of what He said, seems as though he said it on purpose to offend. Like "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood." Or, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Mt 23:33. Or to His own disciple, "Get thee behind me, Satan." And in a sense, he did. God made His Son to be a stumblingblock, to reveal the hearts of men. The Spirit of His Son, the Fire of God, still does so today.

"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken." Isaiah 8:14-15

But those with a true heart, those honest ones and those with eyes to see, like Peter, were not offended in Him. Often His words convicted people of their sin. Often, they stung. That was always His purpose. Those who didn't want to admit their evil, or have it exposed, were offended. Those who were willing, who truly wanted the fire to burn up their corruption, were not. So it is today. So exactly has it been in this little company, which has been such a stone of stumbling to so many. What I quoted from Desire of Ages is ever the Spirit I have seen in Wayne Bent, these eighteen years. The Spirit of Christ still says, "Blessed is he who is not offended in Me."

As Mirror said, Jacob felt like he was being attacked by the Angel. But he didn't go off angry and offended, and blame the Angel for treating him wrong. There was Something in him that made him stay and hold on until the Blessing came. Oh, that all who have been among us would have held on for the Blessing, for It has truly come. I testify.

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 28

Messenger wrote:

PacificAngel · is under review Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 13

Mirror and Messenger,

It is too bad that all you can remember from my testimony years ago was the statement about the gas bubbles. I remember it clearly because I had learned something important from the whole experience of losing my baby(ies). I had shared it with the whole group at the meeting because I saw that others could benefit from what I had learned as well.

What had happened to me was this... I had been pregnant but went into miscarriage. I had hoped that I somehow hadnt lost the baby(ies). I wanted to believe that they were still within me, so I looked for evidence to support this. I was in denial to any evidence that said otherwise. This created unrest, as reality didnt support what I was striving to hold on to. I believed that if I believed hard enough, it would be so.

My understanding of what faith was and how it worked was not correct. I thought that to have faith was to put great effort on my part, straining to make it so. It was really believing in works rather than real faith. Real faith is a quiet trust in God that He is doing the work in me. When I trust in God to do the work in me, it is ok to look at the facts, and to look at the faults in my character, because I know He will take care of it.

I came to see that on a spiritual level, people often tended to strive instead of trust. I saw people striving for an experience and straining to obtain perfection. People in this group were so anxious to be in step with everyone else, that they didnt trust in their own relationship with God, but instead took on the burden of their salvation by trying to make it happen. The answer I found was to be open and honest with God about our true condition, so that we can be vulnerable and receptive to his work in us. Then there is no need for denial on our part, because we have nothing to hide from God (as if we could). We only hide from ourselves when we do that. And there is no need to protect ourselves with a "Holier than thou" attitude, holding both God and everyone else at a distance, lest they see our poorly hidden faults.

When faith is a quiet trust in God, we have peace and he does the work in us. Interestingly enough, self is not proclaimed and exalted as sinless, consecrated, and having arrived... but rather self becomes invisible as God's beauty consumes the attention. The heart is softened and compassion aroused toward others, as we have the desire to comfort as we have been comforted by God.

This was the testimony that I shared so many years ago. I remember because it saved my life spiritually. Because I had trust in God and a personal relationship with him at this time, it prevented me from having to experience a lot of suffering that the LOR group went through following this. I distinctly remember a meeting that I was attending during a campmeeting not long after giving this testimony. There was a quiet time just before the meeting where people were able to spend in quiet reflection. I was quietly praying and was simply in heaven as God's Holy Spirit was filling me full and overflowing- I was sweetly communing with him, just enjoying being still and with him. The meeting started, and one by one the ministers stood up and testified that the Holy Spirit had departed from us, and that he had withdrawn his presence. As the ministers spoke people began to weep and in some cases wail, as the atmosphere quickly changed from happy and cheerful fellowship to great travail. I trusted that God had not left me just because Wayne had "said so", and decided not to go on the rollar-coaster ride with them. I had learned that God was with me, even when I was away from the group.

Later, when I didnt go down to the dessert with them, I trusted that God would be with me, just as he was with them. I again enjoyed being close to him and communed with him daily... and I was richly blessed. When the folks came up from the dessert, I expected to see the same sweet peace on their faces, and that they had learned the same precious truths I had been feasting on, but it was very different. The people were up-tight, stressed, and worn down. I shared what I had learned, that we dont have to hold our breath to translate, to strain and struggle to make it happen. The kingdom of God was within us, He was very near us, we only had to be still and know him. The minister glazed over my testimony and went on with his agenda. I was no longer "in step" and my input was unwelcome. After the meeting, the ladies (including a minister's wife) were sharing about the latest trend in the group - wife spanking. They went on about all the things it had done for their marriages, etc. This was where I decided that I would do better not going to the meetings anymore. I wasnt "offended" as you implied, I was disappointed.

You know, what makes up a church? Individuals do. The things I have written about are not isolated events among a few errant members, they were major movements within the church, and most things I wrote about were even minister led. You back yourselves into a corner if you make yourselves "infallible".
_________________
"Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 28

Mirror wrote:

PacificAngel · is under review Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 13

I would like to clarify something that has been on my mind about the People of Travesser. People there are not all of the same spirit, there are the "true believers" who are simply deceived, like Messenger, and then there are those like Mirror, who twist words to confuse and deceive others.

How are cult leaders able to use mind control on the people without their knowing it?

The spirit of oppression, control and manipulation is obviously a self-centered one. It is his will to be manifest at your cost. The problem is that people don't like to be oppressed, they tend to rebel when they are being squashed. How does the controller correct the unwanted behavior, and train the individual to respond with obedience to his will instead of rebellion?

One way is that an illusion of freedom is created. This is done by hiding the controlling element, disguising it as something that it is not.

One of many examples is this:

A sermon is given by the minister using double talk. In this way, he would say two opposite things, with the effect of creating confusion and deception. First a strong statement would be made that would affect the hearers strongly, -such as condemnation, a guilt trip, a fear manipulation, embarrassment... All playing on the listening individual's weakness such as doubts and fears, guilty conscious, insecurities, shame, negative peer pressure -(like, what will everyone think of me?)

The strong statement would be made, for example... "Whoever doesn't go down to the desert with us will be lost... It will be as in the days of Noah, few will be saved. If you aren't on the ark (down in the desert with us), then you will be lost. If you are not with us, then you are not with us."

Now with that idea embedded firmly in their minds, the listener feeling anxious to do whatever needed to not be lost, not to be left out of the group, the controller then "benevolently" relieves that anxiety with a second statement that directly contradicts the first strong statement. The second statement would look like this... "If the Lord is telling you to go down to the desert, then do that. If he is telling you to do something else, do that. It is ok. "

This way, the listener now believes there is a choice given him and that he is simply following the direction the Lord is telling him to go in. Unfortunately, the first statement has not entirely lost its effect. The subconscious mind is still responding to the guilt trip, fear tactic, condemnation etc that was originally said, but consciously the listener believes he is responding to the second statement and is choosing for himself. Thus the appearance of a conscious choice and the illusion of freedom. He simply believes that he heard God impressing him what to do.

In this way, the listener slowly becomes trained to see the controller's will as the Holy Spirit's leading.

As if this process werent insidious enough, the most zealous of the group would then go about repeating the first stronger statements made, perpetuating the impact on the entire group. The controller only has to have said or insinuate the statement once, and his most zealous followers will go about doing his work long afterwards. The controller can then take the position of a the second statement and act as a moderator of the wheels he set in motion. This way he doesnt look like the oppressor saying the guilt trips, fear tactics etc, but like the benevolent leader holding back the fanatical elements of the group, and upholding free choice.

Why dont people catch on? Well, the controller is simply taking advantage of a trait of human nature that when there is conflicting information that is not in line with what a person believes to be true, the person tends to choose not to see the troubling contradiction. This all happens subconsciously. I think they call this denial. If the controller is seen as holy, kind and benevolent, then instances where the opposite are revealed are simply forgotten or reinterpreted to be in harmony with the image that they want to see. The followers NEED the controller to be exalted and lifted up as his will replaces God's leading. As it progresses, the relationship between the controller and followers polarizes more and more, the controller being lifted up and the followers abased. That is why the statement made by one in Wayne's group makes sense when I asked "Why do you need Wayne to be Messiah? Wasnt Jesus and the bible enough to save you?" Her response was, "We were so bad and so lost that we needed Messiah to come again." It is true that Jesus must increase, and we must decrease, but that is wrong when applied to Wayne.

They believe that they will be lost without him, the stakes are high. They have a lot invested in him being Messiah. And because they have taken the position of being infallible, they believe that to question where they are at now, they would have to throw away their entire experience with God. That it would all be a lie. This way they are locked into blindly following. We are supposed to be consecrated, but not to Wayne. It is good to set you mind firmly on the truth, but when there is error in there, the outcome is deadly. They have a lot of truth when you apply what they say to Jesus, it is true. But when you apply it to Wayne, it becomes a lie because Wayne is not God.
_________________
"Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man. Through God we shall do valiantly: for it is he that shall tread down our enemies."

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 28

After reading my last post again, I feel I should clarify some things. What I was addressing isn’t about people, it’s about a “spirit” that I came in contact with while being a member in the LOR. There was always this spirit of oppression and control in the midst of the church. It was strongest and mostly at Sandpoint, Idaho. That is where Wayne (a.k.a. Michael Travesser) lived before he and the others moved to New Mexico. Everywhere else outside of Sandpoint, where I visited church members I almost always felt accepted as a member of a family. It was wonderful. Most of the people in these different places always made you feel loved and you didn’t have to conform to any certain type of image to be loved by them. You felt free to be yourself and to serve God as you perceived He was leading you. These people tended to believe the others in their fellowship were following God and that you had a real relationship with God. This created an atmosphere freedom and warmth. This was not usually the case at Sandpoint, Idaho.

When I went to Sandpoint at different times, usually for camp meetings, there always seem to be a spirit of oppression and fear underlying everything. Even the people I just mentioned seemed to get swepted away by this "spirit of fear" when at Sandpoint. A fear that if you didn’t conform to the image of perfection presented there, you would be considered an outcaste or even worst, lost. And this “image of perfection” tended to be Wayne and ultimately ended up being Wayne as you can see by reading their posts and the writings on their home site. I kept trying to deny this because I really wanted to believe we were all just brethren as Christ said we were to be. I finally had to accept that it wasn’t the case the day Wayne announced that he was Messiah and a fellow next to me raised up and exclaimed, “I knew it!”

People sometimes ask, why do people stay in such a group? It is because Wayne (and others who tried to mimic him) had a way of speaking, that “insinuated” that if you weren’t with them then you had rejected God and therefore were lost. You have to realize that a lot of the people who joined the LOR, myself included, were people who saw themselves in a lost condition and slaves to various sins. When the Lord our Righteousness church came along it offered truth that would set you free from your sins. They called it “The Gift”. This I accepted, as others did, and took by faith that it was ““not I, but Christ liveth within me”. “The Gift” of receiving Christ life as your own is biblical and through the faith that “not I, but Christ liveth within me” you can be free from sin. This was my experience for a while as I mention in my last post :