George Bush: a sheep or wolf in sheep's clothing?

Doomar

There has been much tado about George W. Bush's Christianity. The Bible gives clear guidelines to evaluate, "you will know them by their fruit," Jesus said. In the recent conflict with Iraq, many decisions were made that revealed the fruit of this man. The decisions that have troubled me the most are as follows:
1. Build up to war without a clear and present danger towards our nation coming from Iraq.
2. Short-circuiting attempts for peace contrary to war.
3. Rejecting counsel of U.N. that did not see war as the best option at the time, and going to war because of a U.N. resolution that was broken (quite a conflicting idea).
4. Hyping the supposed threat and demonizing Saddam Hussein, including a weak report of Iraq obtaining nuclear weapon iranium or some such thing. (Exaggerating or lying for a hidden motive)
5. Attacking without provocation a sovereign country.
6. Okaying targets within a civilian population in attempts to kill Saddam, which killed many civilians instead. Also targeting other civilian filled areas for unknown reasons, resulting in a high casualty count.
7. Sending American troops and troops from foreign country into a preemptive war against a foe that had not attacked any of the countries involved, causing them to commit murder in mass.
8. Gunning down innocent civilians to "prevent" a possible car bombing without evidence. These orders come from the top.
9. No admission of a "mistake" when evidence to the contrary about weapons of mass destruction not found.
10. Asserting God's blessing on our war that was contrary to the doctrine of a just war.

I could go on, but I think it is time for professing Christians to wake up from their lethargy concerning politics and look deeper than just a verbal testimony of faith. I do think the President has done some good things, also, but this warmongering and leading our nation into this and many potential future preemptive wars is quite frightening. Check out the article about the war at http://pastorstevebrown.com and search for other articles on the web.
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"Just when you think you have a handle on it...it moves."

Matthew · babble buster Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 22

Doomar,

Will you allow me to use any or all of this you posted as long as I give you credit for it?

Matthew
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Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Doomar · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:49 am Post subject: George Bush

Dear Matthew,

Of course you can use any of it you like. They are simply ideas. A pastor friend of mine is much more bold in his assertion that the reasons for the war are political and financial. Political, in that the going to war represents the desire of an elite few to push American style democracy and American influence in the Middle East, along with American military power. That's the "good" slant. The other is pay back to Haliburton, Dick Cheney's former company whom he was CEO for, which helped Bush get into office. The tune of billions of dollars in contracts looms very large in the background of things. The fact that no WMD's or anything even close has been found suggests the hype by the President, who has more info about the intelligence than anyone, was simply to get American into the war to accomplish his other motives. The threat to America never existed and American's have been duped into a war and its 100+ billion price tag, not to mention hundreds of Allied lives, thousands of wounded and maimed, and tens of thousands in Iraqi lives, wounded, and maimed. War is such a horrible event that to enter into it the circumstances must be very grave with no other recourse, lest your country be destroyed. Such is the definition of a "just war". Today, many religious leaders in U.S. are advocating for the President and twisting the definition to fit this terrorist agenda. A "threat" (building weapons, training grounds, rhetoric) is being substituted for an overt act of aggression. Nation's are being judged by acts that they don't do (potential intentions of the use of some weapons - pure specualtion using fear), instead of actual overt threatening acts against a country (amassing troops on borders, killing the other country's people, actual invasion, and so on). With these standards, we are free to invade almost anyone. Keep in mind that the U.S. invaded Iraq contrary to the U.N., breaking the charter agreement. The U.S. is acting in a rogue manner to most of the world, contrary to international law. Only because of our military strength are we getting away with it at this time.
The majority of the world's countries have agreed that the U.N. would be the "policeman" of the world and coalitions of many nations would be used to put down invasions or deal with other serious threats to peace. Whether one believes this to be viable or not, it is the law the U.S. has submitted to. The U.S., according to George Bush, is usurping that role of policeman to the disdain of many countries. Continuation of that usurpation will have dire consequences.
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"Just when you think you have a handle on it...it moves."

Matthew · babble buster Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 22

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 22

As I have watched the news from day to day and I see that more American soldiers are being killed each day in a unprovoked war. This war of Iraq has not been a war based on defending America because it has been proven time and again that all the reasons Bush gave for attacking Iraq have been false. No weapons of mass destruction, no chemical weapons, no ties to al-Qaeda, nothing to justify the actions of this country’s attack on Iraq. Having nothing to justify it makes this act of war against Iraq an unprovoked invasion. We are told we are freeing the Iraqi people but it seems the way Iraqi people are fighting our forces over there that they are really wanting to regain their freedom from US. It is the United States that is the terrorist, the oppressor in this War not Iraq. If another country was to attack us unprovoked as we attacked them, we would be trying to defend ourselves just as the Iraqis are now trying to defend themselves against us. The most surprising thing to me is how people who call themselves Christians can support such a war. The Christ they claim to follow condemns such actions this country has taken. Rev 13:10 “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” In other words, the saints or Christians will not be bearing swords or leading into captivity. For a professed Christian to be supporting such things as this unprovoked war proves the their profession of being followers of Christ is just that, a profession but not a fact. One can know that the young men who are dying in Iraq are dying there because they are fulfilling the above verse and for no other reason. The people of America can stop the murder of their children in Iraq by putting up their swords and withdraw their military forces out of Iraq. That would be the only truly right and loving decision at this time concerning the situation in Iraq.
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Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Matthew · babble buster Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 22

Solomon,

Do you mind if I quote your post(s) on this topic?
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Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Doomar · Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:47 am Post subject:

Soloman,
I think you make some very valid points. The soldiers in the U.S. military are put into a real quandry. In love of their country and in obedience to their oath, they obey the commander in chief, as supported by the Congress. By giving the ok to go to war to the President in advance, the Congress failed in its constitutional duty to thoroughly study the issue and take the responsibility upon themselves for the final decision. Most of our soldiers are doing their best to do what they believe is right and act in an upright manner during their tour of duty. If they don't believe in the war, they face some very difficult choices. They certainly need our moral support and prayers, but I must agree with you that to bring them home as quickly as possible is the best and most loving thing to do. Just what "quickly as possible" will mean is debatable.
I'm not so sure that a Christian cannot take up a sword, as even Jesus told his diciples to take swords with them the night of his arrest. Self defence is a viable reason for taking up the sword, and a country can fight in self-defense according to the accepted doctrine of a "just war". http://www.dands-construction.com/psweb/Iraqwar.htm This Iraqi war, as you pointed out, does not fall into this category.
Can a true Christian can be deceived on an issue such as this? I think so. Because someone believes that this is an unjust war, does that mean they must be a Christian? I think not. Paul wrote to Christians who were carnal in their thinking, who were certainly acting contrary to Christian principles. What disturbs me more is why are so many "leaders" of the American Church falling in with or promoting the deception. These who are "elders" in the faith (supposedly) being led astray by nationalism. Could it be that they have been weighed in the balance and found wanting?
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"Just when you think you have a handle on it...it moves."

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 22

"I'm not so sure that a Christian cannot take up a sword, as even Jesus told his disciples to take swords with them the night of his arrest."

Doomar, I think the question to ask here is why Jesus told them to get swords? These next verses seems to show us that He did not want them to use their swords to harm people.

"Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

So why the swords?

"Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

I always thought that perhaps Jesus told them to get the swords because he thought his Father would allow the cup to past from him as he was about to pray for in the garden and they would have needed them to get away from the soldiers. He was, it appears, under temptation at the time. Then again, perhaps Jesus told them to get swords just so the scriptures concerning him could be fulfilled, “reckoned among the transgressors.” Isaiah 53. Anyway, as you wrote, defending oneself and what is going on in Iraq are two different things. Can a true Christian be deceived on an issue such as this? Perhaps, but God does not leave his children in darkness. Once one sees the facts there is no longer an excuse for supporting such a war(invasion). After all this time, you would think people could see the facts concerning this war on Iraq. That it is a war based on lies. Especially Christians who are suppose to be led by the Spirit of Truth. As far as Christians being carnal, well, carnal Christians still shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those Paul spoke to still had some learning and changing to do.
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Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Solomon · babble buster Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 22

Matthew,

No I do not mind.
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Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Arquais · is under review Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 9

the swords to fulfill the scriptures...
to show others that the words of the prophets was fulfilled
sounds like propaganda a little
but Jesus is like George Bush by that tactic, Jesus did some things to make others belive and some things because they were right.
Bush has done some things to make others believe and some things because he believed they were right. Saddam did many bad things besides 9/11 Al-Qaeda related objects.
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im o expert, but...

dan · believes in Jesus Christ Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 18

Wow, are y'all saying that the U.S. Government is doing something for the wrong reasons?!? Oh, my goodness, we all need to alert CNN at once!!! This is unprecedented!!! The whole world is gonna be up in arms about this; man I can't wait to call my mom and tell her about this! Wow, to think that after 228 years of absolute perfection our country is motivated by something other than virtue!!! My history professor is gonna freak out when he hears about this! You guys are life savers! Later!

alcyone · Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject:

sheeps clothing ? maan.. he tore them off long ago.. didn't he execute the most persons already as governor of texas..
starting 2 wars and killing tens of thousans of people on false basis whaah, that is more than a wolf could do.
but I guess that isn't the really bad thing he has done, but the really bad thing is that he has driven america almost into a bankruptcy and fooled the people to give up their rights with a climate of fear.
I couldn't stop laughing ( sort of hysterical ) when I heard about freedom zones for where protests are to be organized. Like WTF?! what is a protest if you have to ask permission for it, or be designated where it is going to be..and the thing with the nipple on tv, causing a 5 second delay to ALL live events, now HAHA, how stupid can you get.. please let some anarchy back in.
just watch out, have someone watch your back and take care of your family. and please speak up when you think things are going wrong..
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dancing to the tune of love on the green hills of eternity