I think that the correct interpretation is attained not by fidelity to some preconceived method of interpretation, but rather by careful study of both Bible text and the science of history, in order to make the best agreement between the two.
Florin, that's a beautiful theory if it could be made to work. The absolute truth is that it hasn't been made to work yet. I believe it will never work for anyone who calls grammatical-historical exegesis just some preconceived method.
Florin Laiu wrote:
There is no earthly power coming up from an hellenistic "horn" and living up to the endtime. Therefore, the solution of Dr. Ford (Antiochus + Rome + Papacy etc.) is the best for the time.
Human reasoning seems conclusive to every Bible scholar who overlooks the obvious thematic division in the book of Daniel and the compelling evidence that Daniel presents an endtime for both the Greek and Roman period.
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 3 Location: Virginia, USA
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:59 pm Post subject:
Hi everybody. My best wishes to you all. I don’t want to bother you with any prologue, so let me go straight to the point.
Because the issue about Daniel 8: 14 has always fascinated and puzzled me it caught my attention to see it in this forum, so here I am and you could say, “What is this that is come unto the son of ‘Rufino’? Is ‘Joaquín’ (Espinoso) also among the prophets? (Don’t mind too much about the last part of it.)
From my limited knowledge, the issue about Daniel 8: 14 doesn’t begin in Daniel 8: 14, as you all know, nor ends there. I said ‘limited knowledge” but to tell you the truth, I have not a bit of knowledge of any other than my native language, and also struggling to survive with English the best I could.
As for me, all this issue about the sanctuary began – without taking into consideration the roll it has in heaven – during the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar, especially, because of the questions in Daniel 8: 13. I used to wonder why it was that the saint did the questions and not Daniel. Then I realized that Daniel couldn’t have made the questions because he didn’t even have had any clue of what was going on in the vision, not even after the saint had given the explanation. At the end of the vision the saint told Daniel to shut it up “For it shall be for many days.” Daniel already knew from chapter 7, and then from the most recently explanation in chapter 8 that the beast in the visions represented kingdoms, NOT ANY PARTICULAR PERSON. It was not until two or three years later, (I believe) during the first year of the reign of Darius, as we learn from Daniel 9: 20-23 that Daniel leaned the details about the 2300 evenings and mornings.
It was many years ago when I started concerning more about the Sanctuary, that I realized, from other verses in the Bible that the sanctuary in Daniel 8: 14 could not be talking about a physical place, that is: it could not be a building. Now I read from n2messiah that the word ‘sanctuary’ in Daniel 8: 14 is translated from the Hebrew ‘qodesh’. Then I went to Strong’s Definition and found out that ‘qodesh’ refers to something abstract, theoretical, and difficult to understand; and it could also mean ‘sanctity.’ I see that agrees with what is my belief about the sanctuary.
I also read the quotation Eugene Shubert did from Desmond Ford on Tue Aug 20, 2002 6:47 pm, where he suggests that the text literally reads, “Then shall holiness be vindicated.” That could be applied to a place, a thing or a person, and that is what I always believed about the word ‘sanctuary’ in Daniel 8: 14 therefore, I always applied the word ‘sanctuary’ in Daniel 8: 14 to God. I want to tank both, n2messiah and Eugene for the help. To tell you the truth, I have heard about Desmond Ford before, but I had never before read anything he wrote. I might look like a fanatic or a renegade, but I rather dig my conclusions from the Bible itself.
The following quotation is from a booklet I wrote:
Quote:
“Satan had caught the eyes of every single creature in the universe, and before he was cast out of heaven he had already influenced one third of its inhabitants. (Revelation 12: 9) The other two thirds remained in expectation with no way to know whether Satan was right or wrong. Satan succeeded with diffusing doubts about God among the places in heaven where he had dwelt – his sanctuaries – that way he polluted his sanctuaries, (Ezekiel 28: 18) consequently, dirtied God’s name or sanctity, not only by questioning His ruling, but by impeaching Him for – the crime of – concealing things from his creatures in order to keep them subservient; (Genesis 3: 4, 5) in other words, Satan dirtied the sanctuary, or place where God dwells, as a result: God’s name, sanctity, or holiness. (Ezekiel 28: 18)
God never totally cleansed His name, sanctity, or holiness (His Sanctuary) because, though two thirds of the inhabitant of heaven remained faithful to Him the other third took their stand with Satan therefore, there was always going to be a doubt about who was right: God or Satan. The only way to know whether God or Satan was right most likely was to allow the practice of evil (Mystery of Iniquity) somewhere in His Universe for a certain period of time and let its inhabitant contrast it with good. That is precisely what God did, so the inhabitants of the entire universe could judge between the allegations of both: God and Satan.
Joaquín
“Oh, that I knew where I might find Him! That I might come even to His seat! I would order my cause before Him, and fill my mouth with arguments. I would know the words which He would answer me, and understand what He would say unto me. Will he plead against me with His great power? No; but he would put strength in me.”
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 3 Location: Virginia, USA
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject:
The following is another fragment from the booklet I wrote:
Quote:
“After the threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9: 26)
According to the above verse the Messiah had to die right after the sixty-two weeks of the 2300 evenings and mornings’ prophecy; Jesus didn’t die any time before, in fact, He died in 31 AD before the prophecy had ended.
The part of the prophecy concerning the city and the physical sanctuary in Jerusalem is a dramatic scene of what happened in 70 AD when the Romans, commanded by General Titus, besieged Jerusalem, annihilated more than one million of its inhabitants and put the city in ruins. That occurred indeed after the sixty-two weeks of the 2300 evenings and mornings’ prophecy.
Concerning the fulfillment of that part of the prophecy Jesus said, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, who so read, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains.” (Matthew 24: 15, 16) “And when you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” (Luke 21: 20)
What comes right after the fulfilled of the 2300 years is recorded in what the angel told Daniel, He said, “Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (Daniel 8: 14) What sanctuary was the angel talking about? Is it on earth, is it in heaven, or is it just a way to depict in words an existing condition in some other place?
The angel could not be talking about the sanctuary on earth, the one the Israelites had, because that sanctuary was totally destroyed in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, hence it did not exist by year 1844 when the 2300 years of the prophecy were supposed to end.
Could there be in heaven a sanctuary furnished like the one Moses built on earth? Did God really show Moses a sanctuary in heaven like the one He asked him to build on earth? No! God never told Moses that there was a sanctuary in heaven like the one he was about to build on earth.
Let us review carefully what the Bible says about this issue: God told Moses, “And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. According to all I show you, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it. (Exodus 25: 8, 9) “And look that you make them after their pattern, WHICH WAS SHOWED YOU IN THE MOUNT.” (Exodus 25: 40) “And you shall rear up the tabernacle according to the fashion thereof which was showed you IN THE MOUNT.” (Exodus 26: 30)
Do any of these verses say that God showed Moses a tabernacle in heaven for him to use it as a pattern? No! What they say is that while Moses was in the mount God showed (explained) to him a fashion (method) to build a tabernacle. These verses say the ‘method’ was ‘explained’ to him IN THE MOUNT NOT IN HEAVEN.
God did not show Moses a real tabernacle, if there is any, but gave him instructions of how to build one for Him. Otherwise God had not given him so many details of how to build the tabernacle; all he had to do was to follow the instructions of what he had in front of him.
The tabernacle Moses built in the wilderness, as we know, had two divisions, the Holy and the most Holy Places separated by a veil. To the right in the Holy Place, which was the first room, there was a table with the bread of the Presence. Every Sabbath-day the priest had to put twelve breads on the table, one for each tribe of Israel. Those breads were for the priests to eat. (Leviticus 24: 8, 9)
At the left hand in the Holy Place there was a candlestick with seven lights that should always be lit. In front of the Holy Place, close to the veil, there was the altar where the priest burned incense on behalf of the people of Israel.
Outside the tabernacle, in its court, there was an altar overlaid with brass to perform the sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the sins of Israel.
These are my questions: if there is a tabernacle in heaven like the one that was on earth, when was or it is that Jesus or whoever, performs in heaven the killing of a lamb for the sins of whom? What kind of people offers in heaven every day a lamb for their sins on the altar of the sacrifice? If the breads of the Presence stand one for each tribe of Israel, does it means that there is in heaven a parallel tribe of Israel? When and what for does Jesus, as the priest, eats the bread of the Presence? What do they burn incense in the altar of heaven for if God and Jesus are right there face to face?
Next time we will see this issue about the tabernacle under another point of view.
Joaquín.
“Oh, that I knew where I might find Him! That I might come even to His seat! I would order my cause before Him, and fill my mouth with arguments. I would know the words which He would answer me, and understand what He would say unto me. Will he plead against me with His great power? No; but he would put strength in me.”
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject: Welcome to this forum
Espinoso,
Thanks for your input on the Hebrew of Daniel 8:14.
Just a reminder, forum rule 4 states that these forums are for discussion only. You're not permitted to post lengthy articles or questionable tangents unless it belongs in the conversation. Please click on the link for more information.
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 3 Location: Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:11 am Post subject:
I am so sorry, I guess I just miss the bus.
Joaquín.
“Oh, that I knew where I might find Him! That I might come even to His seat! I would order my cause before Him, and fill my mouth with arguments. I would know the words which He would answer me, and understand what He would say unto me. Will he plead against me with His great power? No; but he would put strength in me.”
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