It was exactly as I had described it in the link, Texas Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and Richardson Church versus Eugene Shubert. After I was secretly arrested for coming to church (the official charge was criminal trespassing), the church leadership filed a restraining order against me. The petition to the court was a request for a no questions asked 6 months mandatory jail time if I was to come on or near the church property. I, of course, argued for the right to use the sidewalk and that part of the church driveway that leads up to the sidewalk. Being granted that request by the court, I returned to the church with a sign and printed materials to alert the church membership to the evil practices of their spiritual leadership. The page you glanced at briefly was an email exchange between a church member and myself. As it turned out, all the suffering I went through was just a big joke on me. The church didn’t care at all and still doesn’t care about whatever papist methods and deception the church leadership practices.
Quote:
A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. Jeremiah 5:30-31.
This bulletin board became operational April 6, 2002. Before that my homepage looked like this. My reference to Waco is explained in the link. I simply meant that God’s ordained authorities were on the outside and that entrenched Adventists were on the inside. Another illustration of that would be Jerusalem just before its destruction.
3AM, Please forgive my slow response. Some questions are too painful for me to reply to. I do have an answer, if you believe that repeating, dreadful dreams reveal innermost thoughts. I’ve suffered dreaming this dream many times for seven years. It occurs much less frequently now. In my uncomfortable dreams, I’m always in a larger than usual, generic Seventh-day Adventist church on the Sabbath, feeling that I have a perfect right to be there but feeling extremely distressed, knowing that, at any time, I might be noticed by an elder of the Richardson Seventh-day Adventist church. My constant dread is the unquestionable certainty that I would have to spend a mandatory no-questions-asked 6 months in jail if seen by any one of these elders. I know that any one of them would call the police and have me arrested for being on SDA church property. I never remember going to church in my dream; I’m just there, keenly aware of being subject to immediate arrest because my presence at any SDA church is in violation of the wishes of the Richardson church board.
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:35 am Post subject: Standoff in Richardson Church
Eugene,
Your story is of great interest and is a terrific testimony. I suggest that, your error was to ask the pastor of that church to present a message in opposition to the one given by his colleague. It would be seen, right or wrong, as unprofessional conduct so they would get you one way or another.
It is important to view the situation correctly. You will be aware that Sis. White declared that, "We had thought that the G.C. was the word of God to S.D.A.s That, is past!"
What that conveys is that, the S.D.A. Church is only another "kingdom of men". Another of which the Word declares, "The most high God rules in the kingdom of men and gives them to the basest of men." Think about that, because unfortunately you met it face first - not always the best way to meet anything.
In that kingdom of men, there are to be found just "two or three gathered together with Jesus in their midst". Not in the midst of the church body as a whole. He is with those few who serve and follow Him and Him alone.
He cannot be with the others because they frankly don't want him because their manner of life is inimical to His.
To put it another way, when men come together for what ever purpose, they elect a leader - in this case, a pastor is forced upon them. On his arrival, he is quickly met by every political creature going. They all offer him some service - if they can, and for that they want something from him. They quickly notice which ones he seems to favour and bingo, they somehow wind up on the church board.
Now, the S.D.A.s have counsel about who should and should not serve in specific positions. The S.O.P. specifically declares that the ministers are not to waste their time chairing church board meetings or church meetings. That job is to be done by the Elder's. The minister is to be out conducting missions in the towns and cities in which he is placed. "That, is His job." It may even happen in America, but it sure doesn't happen in N.Z. My bet is they there, as here go for the highest seat in the room -that of chairman, and dictate from there. This nullifies the legality of their work for It cannot be a "properly constituted church meeting."
The gang of four at the GC are highly allergic to the laity issuing leaflets to the flock - it might disclose some irregularity and embarrass them. They have had an absolute bibfull in Australia and New Zealand by the CB.s so I can easily understand the allergic reaction when it seems to occur in the land of the free - well, if you aren't in jail anyway.
Time was when you didn't know your ministers. They only appeared on Sabbath mornings to preach, and were then gone. They used to be taught to maintain a very professional appearance and not get too close to anyone. This was to prevent them from being bought. Tragically, today they are being bought and sold all over the country until their heads spin. No man who has been bought or sold can belong to Jesus. He doesn't even belong to himself. He is not his own, but the slave of him who bought him. We only recently beheld exactly that spectacle in our own church made far worse by the minister admitting it.
The problems you are up against are simply these:-
The ministers probably agree with the man who preached nonsense, but in anycase, they cannot safely preach against him. Then there is the matter of who their friends are and what they choose to believe. Then there is the matter of what they personally want. Oft-times you will find that it is not necessarily the minister who is against you, but one of his over-bearing mates to whom he buckles. It's wrong, it's silly, and it's bad, but unfortunately it is all too often true.
All true believers, once members of a church, are joined in gang-warfare. It has always been so. They are lambs to the slaughter.
On joining the church half a lifetime ago, I quickly noticed that there were two groups. The very elect, and the great unwashed. I am very sorry you went through that foolishness, but all who mean it, get it.
Sincerely,
R.R. Pollock _________________ R.R. Pollock
If church leaders could fall away from their sacred place in Ellen White's day, why not in our time?
Ross wrote:
No man who has been bought or sold can belong to Jesus. He doesn't even belong to himself. He is not his own, but the slave of him who bought him. We only recently beheld exactly that spectacle in our own church made far worse by the minister admitting it.
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:21 am Post subject: Bought and sold.
Dear Eugene,
Some years back now, it was discovered that astonishing false teaching were emanating out of Avondale. The matter was taken up by very senior longserving pastors expecting the matter to be promptly dealt with as always. Their their dismay, it was not. Instead, they were dealt to.
This resulted in numerous meetings being conducted throughout Australia and New Zealand coincided with Pastor Ron Spear walking out of the GC and also conducting meetings in harmony with the seven ministers already on the war-path.
The real problem was the rejection of the S.O.P. which is unfortunately disguised accidently by the use of pejorative names given to those who decline to give it up. those ministers became known as the "Concerned Brethren" as indeed they were. The groups which formed to listen to them, became known also as the CBs.
Those groups soon found that, as individuals, they were not wanted in the churches and even less were they wanted in their groups in the churches.
They found that the church buildings were closed to them, and they were forbidden to use them for any purpose at all.
The serious problem with that, was these were the people who erected the buildings, and funded them through sacrificial gifts. That stark fact meant that the Senior Officers of the denomination where guilty of fraud. They accepted their money, they accepted their labour, they accepted their skills in running missions et al. They now said, O.K. we have everything we need, but we don't want you now, so good bye.
All the time, apostacy in every form grew, and grew, and grew. Nothing could stop it because no one was interested in stopping it. The Church standards quickly began to drop, and drop, and drop. And in the Australasian division where once the membership was extremely strong, and the intake of new members was the highest in the world, it did not drop so much as dive. Dive right down to zero. The record for the recent two years the figure is minus.
Orders went out instructing the ministers the prevent all CBs from entering their churches. They were in a cleft stick because they did not want to disfellowship them since that would cost them dealy in lost tithes, so they kept them on the books, but the CBs, guided by the S.O.P. declined to pay them. They had bought into a wonderful Church, with amazingly good messages, but suddenly all they were getting was entertainment. So they were not about to pay for that.
So further pressure went on them, and they were found unsuitable for Church Office. Whenever, at church business meetings, the S.O.P. was mentioned, the minister and his cohorts went off their heads. Things became very, very nasty. I accept that one has to actually witness that savagery first hand to really be able to believe it.
The CBs all had a definite idea of correct behaviour when dealing with Sacred matters, but as time went on, and the pressure and frustration mounted, they left to form their own independent groups. Unfortunately those groups had always done all of the work, and it was believed by the heirarchy that the work would now stop.
It didn't. Instead, leaflets, pamphlets and newpapers were designed and printed in tens of thousands, and were delivered by the same people. The local Church people saw, to their astonishment, extremely beautiful cook books written out, printed up, and the covers in full colour - they were done by me. Worse, several of our ladies ran street stalls, and sold them to the passers by and preaching the message at the same time. The chagrin of the ministers was a picture to behold.
My local group wanted to run a mission, but was forbidden to use our own hall, so they hired one in a near by town. The day before it was to open, they were told, sorry, we have been instructed to shut you out. Your intentions are suspect. Fortunately, in the nic of time they were granted the use of another church hall. Those people telling them, it is O.K. We have struck this sort of thing too. You are more than welcome, and you can hold your Sabbath services here also, as we don't have any use for it on Saturday. What a stroke of luck!! Understandably this did not go down all that well with our minister.
The CBs usually met on a Wednesday night in a private home. For this they were savagely criticised. "It was deemed to be "an unlawful assembly" not in accord with the Church Manual. They should have been attending the Church prayer meeting - but there never was a Church prayer meeting - they were too busy watching T.V. and in anycase they would never have been permitted entrance. But it should be noted that this was not just one meeting, but many such right throughout New Zealand and Australia. They quickly came to be called "Secret meetings" "Meeting were they met to criticise the church." Actually, they had an awful lot of other matters to attend to without bothering about the so called Church.
It should be noted in passing that, the Church ministers were forbidden to attend any CB meeting on pain of instant dismissal. So there were very few who were game enough to come. The few that did, were very impressed, and asked, "When do you discuss the Church?" Only to be told, "We don't." "We are far too busy arranging outreach and other meetings to be bothered with whatever happens in your churches." They didn't know, so they we in no position to talk about the regular church.
The ministers who criticised the CBs could not attend so were in no position to accuse them of anything. Yet, from the GC constant rumours flowed like water. Each tale worse and sillier than its predecessor.
Suddenly the GC Committee decided to deal to the independents, and to that end send out a questionaire to all ministers. My minister came to me and handed me one asking me to fill it for him. Which I promptly did.
That gave me an insight into those people, for what they termed Questions, and they could have been genuine questions, were not. They were vicious accusations. One would only find this type thing in the Civil Service, or in a court. It ran:-
They do this, they do that, they do the other, which are hardly sensible questions. Nevertheless, I filled them in tho I suspect they didnt like the answers. They accused them of helping the ministers to run missions but taking a list of the names and contacting those new people themselves.
It just showed how out of touch those people were for the ministers didn't run missions. They were run by the CBs themselves. They did not therefor have any need for secret copies of names for them to purloin. They were not helping the ministers but the church itself, of which they had once been members.
Take one question:- "They have joined Hope International." The answer to that was, "No one can join Hope" because it is only a bookshop. They will order you some books if you like, but you certainly cannot join it. It is not a church.
In saying that however, various groups of CBs can, and do, ask Ron Spear, John Grosbell, or the Standishes to attend a meeting and deliver a message. Or sometimes one of their merry men will call in and do the honours. Otherwise there is a free exchange between the groups.
This spells out the situation as it exists in the South Pacific. The immediate problem I was referring to at my church arose because, when it was pointed out that, there was no point in trying to bring in further members when you were losing them in great quantities and unable to hold them because of faulty Sabbath services.
When that was stated, the minister's friend, stood and howled, "I don't care about them CBs." In this, he was bearing false witness before a group of whom the Scriptures declare, "Here are they who keep the commandments of God."??
He did not know anything about the CBs except that they are persona non grata. And the very serious problem he was creating was that the people I had referred to happen to be related to me tribally. I know who they are, and where they now worship. It would not be impossible for me to visit them and persuade them to return. Only now he has dubbed them CBs the goal posts have been shifted. In fact I was referring to two such groups. One of about thirty people and the other of about twelve.
However, that occured at two church business meetings and he should have been called to order, but the minister had driven the only Elder we had out, and had usurped all the rights and responsibilities of the laity to himself. He was therefore the chairman, which was not his correct job, but was not in a sufficiently sound position to put the acid on his mate.
Admittedly, I could have risen to a point of order, but it would only have made matters worse and I get so sick and tired of bringing those people to order myself.
But it all comes down to a deliberate refusal to follow the S.O.P. What they are saying is, "We will not have that man to rule over us."
About two weeks later in a Sabbath Service the minister rose and began to tell everyone how much he owed to that troublesome creature, and very soon everyone understood that he had been given carte blanch to do whatever he wished. Now, several others have absented themselves.
Sincerely,
Ross _________________ R.R. Pollock
It's about a Texas church being locked up and the members denied the privilege of worshipping in their own church.
The conference president in charge is Steve Gifford.
Thought I would do a little research on the man and and found out he is the very one who was president when Eugene was hauled off to jail for attending church!
Does anyone know more about the story behind this Houston SDA church being locked up? Were they too refusing to follow Maxwell?
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:15 am Post subject: The exercise of kingly power
I do not have any current knowledge of the actions within the American Churches, but several years ago now our CB group, meeting in Tawa, was introduced to the President of an African Conference who delivered a wonderful speech concerning the attempt by one man to have the entire conference vote itself out of existence. He failed, and it was tried several times with the result that the people came together a lot harder. Ultimately, someone at the G.C. ordered the entire organisation to be dissolved.
The wonderful thing thing about that was that their President - a man who had become terrfied by severe warnings about independent ministers wandering about, began to wonder if the independants had been as cruelly treated as his flock had been, and rang Colin Stanish in America. His reply was, "Come over and we'll have a talk!"
Before leaving Africa, he was surprised to receive a cable advising him to call into the G.C. Offices before he went on to visit with Colin. When he saw the G.C. Officers they had nothing to say to him so he explained that he had received this Cable, and although he had been disfellowshipped and therefore was no longer answerable to them, he had had the courtesy to answer it in the manner dictated, so "What do you want with me??" After some further embarrassment they said, "Stay away from Standish."
He was laughing loudly as he told us this story, and saying, "I never expected to be disfellowshipped for doing what I was told." Think about it. He had been instructed to organise a vote. So he did. He was then ordered to organise a further vote, and he had done that too. He was instructed to organise a third vote and he had carried his orders to the letter once again. Evidently someone didn't like the result so dropped an atom bomb on the lot of them. But this had unexpected consequences because whereas they had been very restricted in the area available for their witness, now they were free, and their parish had become all Africa.
Of course the Bible specifically says; "And the dragon was wrath with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed ........" So we can hardly say we have not been warned.
Sincerely,
Ross _________________ R.R. Pollock
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