God is evil

Judas · apologist for Satan Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 5

I'm speaking from a purely biblical sense so those who do not hold faith in a Judeo/ Christian God may find what I have to say of no consequence.

God is ultimately responsible for evil. His very act of creation given His prevoyance begs the question of His goodness. He saw a universe plunged into darkness beforehand(before any being was ever created). Why then create anything? Why not just leave it at the three in the godhead?

Rather than do that though He commenced with creation and now millions have suffered as a result. Thousands upon thousands of people and other beings will be burned in hellfire. They should have never been here in the first place. You and I should have never been here.

Creation should have never taken place. It should have been a matter left alone given its consequences. But it wasn't which begs another question as to God's real motives and goodness.

No one should have ever had to deal with the pain and suffering which exists in this world but they do. I should not be here but I am. And no I am not about to serve any deity responsible for this. You can blame Lucifer all day for evil but the fact remains that God created him with the foreknowledge of what he would do.

Do I look at life negatively? Yes I do. Life is not happy for the most part. I don't blind myself with rosy colored glasses. I look at a world in turmoil because it is. People die. People starve. People are murdered. People are molested. People are stepped on by those in power. Wars here, wars there, Earthquakes here earquakes there. Famine here Famine there. Babies borns with birthdefects. People poor barely surviving. Rich rulers sitting in the lap of luxury while someone starves to death on the streets.

No friend this world is not a pleasant place. It is negative. Shame on me for taking such a view of the world! No, shame on you for not! King Solomon knew about all this and wrote at length about it in Ecclesiastes. He was a wise man. You see wisdom and knowledge increases sorrow. Oh How I wish I were blind then I could run around thinking what a great thing life is but I am not. So for those christians who want to take a poke at me for looking at the world negatively I suggest you read Ecclesiastes.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 - for in much wisdom is much grief and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow.
Ecclesiastes 7:18 - It is better to goto the house of mournning than go to the house of feasting...
Ecclesiastes 7:3 sorrow is better than laughter...

gillespie9669 · Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:59 am Post subject:

Judas,
You were at it again, demonstrating what you are good, even expert at; that of OUTLINING THE PERCEIVED PROBLEM, THE NEGATIVES. But you certainly appear to have no answer do you? I challenge you to propose a way out that is not negative. So what I wrote earlier still stands unanswered, simply because you lack the capability to rise above negativity and suggest positive solutions. I wrote:

Dzien Dobry · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 26 May 2002 Posts: 62

Judas,

You shouldn't be so confident and trusting in your own judgment. Your judgment is clearly impaired. Jesus taught that hypocrites must first remove the planks from their own eyes. Didn't Jesus speak the truth?

First, you don't seem to recognize your own wrongdoing and evil desires. Second, you criticize others but don't seem to recognize your own enormous sinfulness. Third, you haven't rectified all the wrongs that you're responsible for nor have you terminated your existence to prevent yourself from continually sinning.

Please remove the planks in your own eyes before you criticize God.

narscissa · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 38

After giving some thought to Judas' original presentation, it occurred to me that it contains a fatal flaw of logic. His contention was that God merely did good things to "look pretty for the Universe" or play politics or whatever. Yet he completely disregards the fact that God has no need to do so. God had no need to permit Lucifer to exist or to rebel, or to continue to live after he rebelled. God had no need to "look good" to others because He is God -- if He wished, He could simply wipe out anyone who did not suit His fancy. He could have wiped out Lucifer after he rebelled. The typical answer is that He refused to do so because it would have confused the other loyal angels and the seed of rebellion would have continued unabated by the questions it would have planted in their minds against Him. Well why then could He not just wipe THEM out if they went that route? I'll tell you why -- one reason only, and it's the same reason that answers these things where we human beings are concerned -- He loved them. He did not WANT to wipe them out to suit Himself.

The fatal flaw in Judas' logic is that he completely overlooks this point: that God doesn't have to -- doesn't NEED to -- play politics with Lucifer or anyone else. God doesn't have to -- doesn't NEED to -- put up with sin or rebellion at all. God could wipe out anyone and anything that displeases Him if He wished. He has the power, and since He is God, there is nothing we can do about it. It is the fact that God does NOT choose to act in this fashion that we should be examining. And the reason why has to do with His true character, which is Love.

It is from this foundation -- the love revealed in sending His Son to offer up His life for us -- that other things, the hard things, the confusing things, the scary things, the unfair things, the painful things, need to be evaluated -- NOT the other way around. To approach matters as Judas has makes no sense, because the mystery is not that evil exists and pain and suffering ensue. The mystery is that in the midst of all of it there is still goodness, still warmth, still joy and hope and Love and healing and blessing and beauty and praise and loveliness and pleasures undefiled!! now WHY IS THAT??? Just like a tiny green chute of a plant CRACKING a huge slab of concrete as it reaches for the sunlight ... THERE is the REAL mystery ... ponder THAT! Crack THAT one if you can!!! :)

Tried · is under review Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 1

Judas raises a very important (and old) problem, which is: how is a “good” God compatible with the existence of Evil. As far as I know, it was first stated by Epicurus in the following form:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Judas, perhaps hastily, chose the second option, but I think that at the heart of the matter is the ontological question that was posed by Socrates to Euthyphro:

“Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”

These are issues that should be of particular importance to those who lay claim to faith in a God belonging to the Judeo/Christian tradition, so first I want to congratulate Judas for bringing it up. Next, it seems to me that the burden of a “solution” is on the believer, so I would love to hear Gillespie9669’s or Narcissa’s faith based answers to these questions.