PastorChick
fanatical cultist
Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:27 pm Post subject: Walter McGill – dodging the charges? |
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In reference to Eugene Shubert’s Straight Testimony
Thank you, my adversary, for showing us your "color." My deadly wound is healed, and I respond principally for the honest-hearted that may need or desire some explanation, and partially because you may not be without hope yet. :)
| Walter McGill wrote: | | If you have specific objection to the Apostle, take it up by gospel order as instructed by the Master. |
| In quoting Scripture, Eugene Shubert wrote: | | “I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:12-13. |
On the face of it, one would imagine you have rightly applied the above scripture. And yet, knowing the setting helps to place the reference in its proper context.
Let me explain.
Why did Paul, an Apostle of the highest rank, spend on mechanical labor time which to all appearances might have been put to better account? Why did he not devote his time and strength to the preaching of the word? By laboring with his hands Paul was preaching the word. Thus he set and example which spoke against the sentiment then gaining influence, that the preaching of the gospel excused the minister from mechanical and physical labor. Paul knew that there were many that loved ease and indulgence much better than useful labor. He knew that if ministers neglected physical work, they would become enfeebled. He desired to teach young ministers that by working with their hands, they would become sturdy; their muscles and sinews would be strengthened. (AUCR 12-01-99)
In this context, the Apostle writes, “I will keep on doing what I am doing…”
| Eugene Shubert wrote: | | I test those who call themselves apostles, and are not, and I declare them to be false. |
All of my financial and work records are available for audit should any person wish to scrutinize them. And, you may examine my hands as well. :)
| Walter McGill wrote: | | There are presently thousands around the world ... in the Spirit of unity with CSDAs in the United States. |
| Eugene Shubert wrote: | | Evidence suggests that you are more arrogant than factual and that I have been extraordinarily generous. Light Fox wrote, “We have total, at the moment, 4 baptized members in the U.S, among others who profess but have not yet been / been able to be baptized.” I estimated 12 members total. |
I am please that you pointed this apparent discrepancy out for all to see. :)
The discerning eye will notice that "Light Fox" was referring to the United States, and I was noting facts regarding countries abroad. The "color" of "evil surmising and evil speaking" is black as the night in your attempted contrast.
We network with individuals in this country often who are supportive of our doctrine, but are not yet committed to a life of victory over sin-- Therefore, they are not "counted" as "members" per se. Ours is the work of "holding forth the bread of life" that they may eat and become satisfied.
| Eugene Shubert wrote: | Your arrogance, as great as it is, in suggesting that you are God’s chosen apostle of some great church, and duly qualified to call the Adventist church Babylon, is evident to all. And on what do you base your arrogance? You dismiss the efforts, years and events between Peter’s humble, loving, hope-filled sermon of Acts 3:11—4:4 for those who crucified Jesus, up to the time Paul declared that “the wrath of God has come upon [the Jews] to the utmost” (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). There is a progression there but you can’t see it! You interpret Acts 3:11—4:4 as saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. ... Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues.” (Revelation 18:1-4). You also cheapen the fact that Martin Luther tried to reform his church, even while thinking that the pope was antichrist:
As Luther compared the Holy Oracles with the papal decrees and constitutions, he was filled with wonder. “I am reading,” he wrote, “the decrees of the pontiffs, and . . . I do not know whether the pope is antichrist himself, or his apostle, so greatly is Christ misrepresented and crucified in them.” Yet at this time Luther was still a supporter of the Roman Church, and had no thought that he would ever separate from her communion. —The Great Controversy, p. 139.
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To continue your line of reference. . .
When the Papal bull reached Luther, he said: "I despise it, and resist it, as impious and false. It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein." "I glory in the prospect of suffering for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty; for I know now that the Pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." . . . Luther proceeded to publicly burn the Pope's bull, with the canon laws, the decretals, and certain writings sustaining the Papal power. By this action he boldly declared his final separation from the Roman church. He [then] accepted his excommunication, and proclaimed to the world that between himself and the Pope there must hereafter be war. (4SP 117, 118) [Brackets mine]
Now, let me expound for you. The process was one of "progression," yes. We, like Luther, loathed to separate from our "beloved church." We, just as Luther, saw prevailing apostasy and resisted it with our life's blood. We sought every means to reform our "beloved church." And yet, the "bull" of the General Conference came forth condemning us in the form of their federal "trademark name" issued by the "two-horned beast" which in effect excommunicated all who would stand upon the sure platform of Protestantism and divinely established Adventism---"The Bible and the Bible alone." We publicly "burned" the "General Conference bull" and accepted our consequential excommunication---No man might "buy or sell" the Gospel as described in the three angels' messages of Rev. 14, unless he had "the mark" which is the "name of the beast." In principle and effect, we were "driven out" from our "beloved church."
| Eugene Shubert wrote: | As the record of history clearly shows, all true Reformers were driven out of their former churches:
"For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last." —1 Thessalonians 2:14-16. NIV.
In Ellen White’s retelling of the history of the Millerites, you should recall that William Miller sought to benefit everyone and that his message, initially, was well-received by all churches:
In preaching the doctrine of the second advent, William Miller and his associates had labored with the sole purpose of arousing men to a preparation for the judgment. They had sought to awaken professors of religion to the true hope of the church and to their need of a deeper Christian experience, and they labored also to awaken the unconverted to the duty of immediate repentance and conversion to God. "They made no attempt to convert men to a sect or party in religion. Hence they labored among all parties and sects, without interfering with their organization or discipline."
"In all my labors," said Miller, "I never had the desire or thought to establish any separate interest from that of existing denominations, or to benefit one at the expense of another. I thought to benefit all. ... My whole object was a desire to convert souls to God, to notify the world of a coming judgment, and to induce my fellow men to make that preparation of heart which will enable them to meet their God in peace. The great majority of those who were converted under my labors united with the various existing churches." —The Great Controversy, p. 375.
Keep reading. The church of “William Miller” was forced upon “the Millerites” by those who opposed Miller’s message:
As his work tended to build up the churches, it was for a time regarded with favor. But as ministers and religious leaders decided against the advent doctrine and desired to suppress all agitation of the subject, they not only opposed it from the pulpit, but denied their members the privilege of attending preaching upon the second advent, or even of speaking of their hope in the social meetings of the church. Thus the believers found themselves in a position of great trial and perplexity. They loved their churches and were loath to separate from them; but as they saw the testimony of God's word suppressed and their right to investigate the prophecies denied they felt that loyalty to God forbade them to submit. Those who sought to shut out the testimony of God's word they could not regard as constituting the church of Christ, "the pillar and ground of the truth." Hence they felt themselves justified in separating from their former connection. In the summer of 1844 about fifty thousand withdrew from the churches. —The Great Controversy, p. 376. |
Copying from your above selection . . .
Those who sought to shut out the testimony of God's word they could not regard as constituting the church of Christ, "the pillar and ground of the truth." Hence they felt themselves justified in separating from their former connection.
This brief reference explains my point very well. We "could not regard as constituting the church of Christ" the SDA church, headed by the General Conference corporation, as they "sought to shut out the testimony of God's word." The testimony of God's word is that "Love is the fulfilling of the law."
The lesser light testifies:
Says the prophet, "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." We can see from this scripture that it is not the true church of God that makes war with those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is the people who make void the law, who place themselves on the side of the dragon, and persecute those who vindicate God's precepts. (ST 04-22-89)
Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. (ST 05-06-97)
The employment of the sword of Caesar to correct heretics via federal, state, and international trademark laws is not the act of the "Church of Christ." We heard the "strong voice" from Heaven declaring "Babylon Fallen," and along with that voice, another, saying, "Come out of her, my people . . ." We obeyed.
| Eugene Shubert wrote: | The similarities between the first Christians, Protestants and Millerites, in their struggle with their antecedent church/churches, are easy to see. The Spirit of the prayer of Christ was manifest (John 17). CSDA follows the self-centered model, nothing Biblical or truly Protestant. You seek to benefit yourself. Your imagined superiority is your first concern. You are so judgmental and confident of your discernment that you declare every other church unreformable. You don’t even think the unreformability of the churches should be demonstrated with superior proof, like the evidence in the book of Acts, in the heroics of Luther or in the true Christian spirit of William Miller.
You are a cowardly false apostle. |
Thank you for sharing your "color." I am pleased to have had this opportunity after so many years of silence from you. Perhaps you will reconsider your support of anti-Christ, and come to the front, gird [yourself] with the whole armor of God, and exalt His law, adhere to the faith of Jesus, and maintain the cause of religious liberty which Reformers defended with toil and for which they sacrificed their lives. . . . [Brackets mine]
I cannot help but finish with sections from the Spirit of Prophecy which apply directly to the controversy before us in this thread.
A systematic persecution was carried on against a people whose only fault was that of seeking to turn the feet of sinners from the path of destruction to the path of holiness.
Said John Wesley, referring to the charges against himself and his associates: "Some allege that the doctrines of these men are false, erroneous, and enthusiastic; that they are new and unheard of till of late; that they are Quakerism, fanaticism, popery. This whole pretense has been already cut up by the roots, it having been shown at large that every branch of this doctrine is the plain doctrine of scripture interpreted by our own church. Therefore it cannot be false or erroneous, provided the scripture be true." "Others allege that their doctrines are too strict; they make the way to Heaven too narrow; and this is in truth the original objection, as it was almost the only one for some time, and is secretly at the bottom of a thousand more which appear in various forms. But do they make the way to Heaven any narrower than our Lord and His Apostles made it? Is their doctrine stricter than that of the Bible? Consider only a few plain texts: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.' [1 Luke 10:27.] 'Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.' [1 Matt. 12:36] 'Wether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.'[2 1 Cor. 10:31]
"If their doctrine is stricter than this, they are to blame; but you know in your conscience it is not. And who can be one jot less strict without corrupting the word of God? Can any steward of the mysteries of God be found faithful if he change any part of that sacred deposition? --No; he can abate nothing; he can soften nothing; he is constrained to declare to all men, I may not bring down the scriptures to your taste. You must come up to it, or perish forever. The popular cry is, the uncharitableness of these men! Uncharitable, are they? In what respect? Do they not feed the hungry and clothe the naked? No; that is not the thing; they are not wanting in this, but they are so uncharitable in judging; they think none can be saved but those who are of their own way."
How similar are the arguments urged against those who present the truths of God's word applicable to this time. (GC 1884 PP 178, 179)
The same arguments are still urged against all who dare to present, in opposition to established errors, the plain and direct teachings of God's word. "Who are these preachers of new doctrines?" exclaim those who desire a popular religion. "They are unlearned, few in numbers, and of the poorer class. Yet they claim to have the truth, and to be the chosen people of God. They are ignorant and deceived. How greatly superior in numbers and influence is our church! How many great and learned men are among us! How much more power is on our side!" These are the arguments that have a telling influence upon the world; but they are no more conclusive now than in the days of the Reformer. The Reformation did not, as many suppose, end with Luther. It is to be continued to the close of this world's history. Luther had a great work to do in reflecting to others the light which God had permitted to shine upon him; yet he did not receive all the light which was to be given to the world. From that time to this, new light has been continually shining upon the scriptures, and new truths have been constantly unfolding. (GC 148-149)
I am "worm" (Job 25:6); He is King! May Yahweh be blessed forever.
Respectfully,
Pastor "Chick" |
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