Crucial SDA Facts on the Holy Spirit

gillespie9669

This writer is aware that some will quote certain past SDA publications, in order to cloud the issue regarding the separate personality of the Holy Spirit. A classic example is the quote directly following.

In 1911, an M.C. Wilcox (a later SDA pioneer) stated, in a question and answer portion of the SDA Signs of the Times magazine:

"The Holy Spirit is the mighty energy of the Godhead...personified in Christ, and God, but never revealed as a separate person".
M.C. Wilcox, Signs of the Times, 1911

Now many anti-trinitarians in the SDA Church today quote this and declare it to be an authoritative statement for the whole Church, but fail to see that the Church was still in transition from the old views about the Holy Spirit being just a mighty energy, or force. Thus some (like M.C Wilcox, who was just one person giving his individual views) still showed leanings to the old view, while accomodating (just to a point) the newer viewpoints. It is evident that his view was just one among others, as the following will clearly show.. But did his view reflect the growing, and greater consensus of the brethren, and more importantly, the inspired insights of Mrs. White. Well, you now judge for yourself.

“It seems strange to me now [in 1898], that I ever believed that the Holy Spirit was only an influence, in view of the work He does”. -R.A. Underwood – “The Holy Spirit a Person”, Review and Herald, Vol. 75, May 17, *1898, pg. 310

“He [the Holy Spirit] is more than an emanation from the mind of God…He is included in the apostolic benediction [alongside the Father and Son- 2 Cor. 13:14], and is spoken by our Lord [Jesus] as acting in an independent and personal capacity [John 16:13, 14 - thus is not just the Person of the Father] as Teacher, Guide, and [‘ another’] Comforter. He [the Holy Spirit] is an object of veneration [from Latin, ‘venerari’- to worship] and is a heavenly intelligence [singular] everywhere present and is always present”.
-G. C. Tenny, “To Correspondents”, Review and Herald, Vol. 73, June 9, 1896, pg. 362

“We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a Person [not just a ‘split-personality’] as [in same way that] God is a Person (!!) is walking through these grounds…He hears every word we utter, and knows every thought of every mind” [Remember God’s personality was never in question, or at issue in Adventism, but only the Holy Spirit’s, as a “third” personality].

-E.G. White- Manuscript Release, Vol. 7, pg. 299 (from an 1899 speech at Avondale College)

“There are three living [literal] Personalities of the Heavenly Trio…” -E.G. White – Evangelism, pg. 615 (from a*1905 Manuscript)

Notice the now full doctrinal transition in Mrs. White’s own words; a clear advancement of pioneering thought, compared to the expressions of some pioneers from 1846-1888, and even after. Thus by 1913, two years after M.C. Wilcox's above quoted statement, F.M. Wilcox, the Editor in chief of the Review and Herald showed the advancement beyond this point by stating:

“Seventh-day Adventists [not just myself] believe [now] in ... the Divine *TRINITY. This Trinity consists of the Eternal Father… the Lord Jesus Christ…[and] the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Godhead”F. M. Wilcox (editor of Review and Herald), *Review and Herald, October 9, 1913

NOTE- Remember, a good research in any field, looks at all available data, not just some. So, was M.C. Wilcox (in 1911)representing all the brethren? Was he in *FULL agreement with E.G White? Evidently, No! However, his view was understandable at the time because it took time for the Church to fully develop it's teaching on this subject, but after that, to return to the old errors must be nothing else but heresy!!!. That is the real issue, which I have addresed in another article on the Spirit's nature and identity. Clearly, just to be "personified" is not the same as being called "a person as God is a person", and if the Holy Spirit was just personified, then there could never be a "Trio", would there? Just a 'duo', WHICH SOME ARE HERETICALLY TRYING TO TEACH IN ADVENTISM.
_________________
Derrick Gillespie (Mr)

alb · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

Let God's Word be true:

In the SDA Hymn #73, God, the Lord God Almighty is said to be "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!"

Let's assume this is true.

Revelation 21:22
"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

If the Lord God Almighty, the Creator of all things (Revelation 4:8-11) is "God in three Persons", here's a simple question that anyone ought to answer easily:

How many Persons are there in Revelation 21:22?

1) Lord God Almighty (three Persons) and the Lamb ( another Person) = 4 Persons

2) Lord God Almighty (1 Person) and the Lamb ( another Person) = 2

Which answer?

gillespie9669

alb · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

alb · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

gillespie9669 · Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 3:58 am Post subject:

Dear "alb"'
It is so easy to become passionate over our own views, and see the other person a heretic because we can't see further than the noses on our faces. Your views lack teeth, and shows lack of discernment because

1. You strive ever to worship God, the Father, forgetting that that AUTOMATICALLY COVERS HIS SPIRIT, EVERYTIME YOU SERVE HIM. You cannot escape the obvious!! Also, the Father being in the New earth will there as the Spirit (2 COR. 3:17, 18) and you now worshipping Him, are worshipping Him as a Spirit and as the Spirit. You can'y prove otherwise, since God's Spirit is inseparable from His being. God is pure Spirit (not body and a spirit in it); YOU CAN'T PROVE OTHERWISE. THE ONLY WAY TO ESCAPE SERVING OR WORSHIPPING THE ETERNAL SPIRIT IS TO STOP SERVING GOD HIMSELF. You wishing to declare only too persons in the Godhead is like beating your head against the wall. You don't think the Spirit should be served? Then tell that to E.G. White, and then declare her a heretic.

2. You have failed miserably in addressing the issue from the following standpoint. If for instance the word "Adam" originally meant the first man, but all others who sprang from him are still called Man IN THE HIGHEST SENSE(e.g. Eve, Cain, Abel, and indeed all mankind), and together Man is called "he", then why can't the word "God", from "Elohim" mean first and foremost the Father, and all others who sprang from Him (the divine ones, as the Strong's define the word "Elohim" to mean). Example of the Spirit of truth explaining this? Listen to the Spirit of the prophets speaking through another:

“Man [collective] came from the hands of the Creator, perfect in organization and beautiful in form. The fact that HE [collective] has for six thousand years withstood the ever increasing weight of disease and crime is conclusive proof of the power and endurance with which HE [collective] was first endowed.”
– E.G. White, S.D.A Bible Comm., Vol. 1, pg. 1082

Likewise, why can't the word "God" be both a singular and a collective noun, but never plural, in the same way Man is a singular and collective noun, but never plural; SINCE THERE IS ONLY ONE HUMANITY, BUT DIFFERENT AND SEPARATE PERSONS IN THAT ONE HUMANITY. Of course, Man (humanity)is not a human blob of persons, and the same is true for the Godhead (divinity), which is not a divine blob of persons, DESPITE THIS IS WHAT THE PAPACY TEACHES IN IT'S POST-NICEA VERSION OF THE TRINITY. I HAVE NEVER SUBSCRIBED TO THIS VIEW, DESPITE I STILL SEE MYSELF A TRINITARIAN OF SORTS (AN UNORTHODOX ONE MAYBE). Why? See below.

Satan counterfeiting the trio in the true Godhead, should not me mistakenly interpreted as him being the originator of the first trinity; he simply corrupted the idea, since he was in Heaven and had full knowledge of the three persons of the Godhead. The Papacy is Satan’s pawn, and what the Papacy (first represented by Constantine uniting Church and State) can be credited for doing is formulating, the “god blob” version of the Trinity, by adding on to the basic truth that indeed there is a “Heavenly Trio” of “three living Personalities” of the “Eternal Godhead”.

Of course the best way to represent the Godhead is by way of a “Trio”, or a triad, which in basic root meaning also means “a trinity” (united as “one” in the same way a wife and husband does). It is the Roman Catholic version of the Godhead (adopted by most of Christendom), which misrepresents the true root meaning of “a trinity”, by presenting (since the Athanasian Creed) a three-headed, tri-personal”, “indivisible” organism, but falsely parading it as a Trio.

Note the words of our own pioneer, J.H. Waggoner acknowledging the true meaning of the word “trinity”. J.H. Waggoner, a few years before the SDA church affirmed (BEFORE 1915) three persons in the Godhead, stated that trinitarianism is simply based upon the true definition of the word “trinity”, which means “three [distinct] persons” who exist together by close relationship; just like “trio”, “triplet”, “triad” and “triumvirate” – all coming from the prefix “tri” [three].

“A Trinity is three persons. To recognize [admit to] a trinity [the true type], the distinction between the Father and Son must be preserved.”

-J.H. Waggoner, 1884, The Atonement, pgs. 167-169

Thus a trinity in not (supposed to be) a single person, personality or individual; you know it (it you are honest with your dictionary), and I know it!! Thus the contents of my history-related letter (you responded to) still hold true.

Finally, let me close with Scripture.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,
and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." -1 Corinthians 8:6

"For through him [Jesus] we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." -Ephesians 2:18

Now this is absolutely true, but it is our understanding of what it says which is the problem. As you have seen, I reject the Papal, and general Christendom’s EXPLANATION of the Trinity, in favor of the pre-PAPAL version nearest the Bible Apostles, BECAUSE IT IS BIBLE BASED. This version, in principle, is this:

“There is one God, the Father Almighty, but He cannot be known, and has not been made known apart from His Eternal Son, and Eternal Spirit. Only by way of and through the Son can He be worshipped or served, and only by the ‘unction’ of, and through the Holy Spirit can we accept Him and “serve” him. In serving the Father it automatically means you MUST serve the Son, who is God (divine) equally, and obviously you are automatically serving the Holy Spirit, who is God (divine) also. However, the unity does not destroy the Personality of neither, because “there are three living [literal] personalities of the Heavenly Trio”, said the leading pioneer in Adventism, Mrs. White (who sheds clear light on the Word of God).”

This version does not purport a “god blob” trinity despite it still presents a trinity. I try, like yourself, to stay far from Popery as it concerns their version of the trinity. However, as a friend of mine once said, “ I will not run from a lion into the mouth of a bear”. Your version of the Godhead is shocking ditheistic (two Gods) and is easily proven to be polytheistic IF JESUS IS LESSER OR NOT REALLY EXACTLY LIKE THE FATHER IN DIGNITY!!
However, the Biblical basis for the pre-Papal version of a TRUE Godhead trinity is quite easily demonstrated:

The Biblical Basis for the pre-Papal Trinity:

1Co 8:6 “Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.”

Contrary to popular opinion among some, this is not an anti-Trinitarian or Unitarian verse!! It is interesting here that Paul was insisting on "none other God, but ONE" (1 Cor. 8:4), AND INSTEAD OF USING THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK OF ONLY ONE PERSON, FULL STOP, HE INDICATED A UNITY OF PERSONS INVOLVED IN THE GREATEST ACT, CREATION, THAT IS, BY USING THE CONJUNCTIVE "AND" BETWEEN FATHER "AND" SON; BOTH EQUALLY OUR CREATOR!! Why did he not just stop at the Father as Creator, since creation is the greatest link to identifying the true God? Clearly the Father and Son are not two Gods (did you get that Nicholas?), but are two Persons deemed inseparable (not "indivisible") when we think of the true God, "the Father"!!

Hear the instructional words of Tertullian (despite he made, admittedly, SOME mistakes on the Godhead) long before the Papacy later perpetuated some of his errors:

200 A.D.

“All Scriptures give clear proof of the *Trinity [‘trinitas’- Latin], and it is from these that our principle is deduced… the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed” - Tertullian, Against Praxeas, Chapter 11

“That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit, God… [but] when Christ would come, He might be acknowledged as God, and be called Lord, because He is the Son of Him who is both God and Lord” - Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 13:6

The Father and Son (in 1 Cor. 8:6) were not being contrasted to each other, but contrasted against the false gods and lords of the heathen. Both the Father and Son, even when distinguished as separate beings, are equally called "God" and "Lord", and even “Everlasting Father" (with ALL three terms used the same way in the highest sense in Judaism). And Paul was a Jew. THERE IS NO ESCAPING THAT REALITY (Malachi 2:10, Isaiah 9:6, John 2:28, and John 17:3).

Wasn’t it Paul who (long before ‘Nicea’) clearly wrote about the unity of the Personalities of the Godhead in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, in a way similar to the unity of the members of the Church, depicted by the unity of the members of “one body” (in the same passage of 1 Cor. 12). Thus, the head, the arm, the hand and fingers, all have different offices, but belong to the same united body. They are distinct, but inseparable, constituent, and intrinsic members (see the word “intrinsic” in a good dictionary).

One Seventh-day Adventist pioneer, E.J. Waggoner, saw this truth, and once referred to the “constituent”, and intrinsic “Persons of the Eternal Godhead” as being so perfectly united that they have the same Spirit (Christ and His Righteousness, 1890). Paul even alluded to Christ, “the arm of the Lord” (Isaiah 53:1 and 52:10), as being “headed” by the Father, in 1Cor. 11:3, with both working in perfect unity with the Holy Spirit, the “hand of the Lord” (Ez. 8:1-5) or the “finger of God” (Luke 11:20). No one should venture to say that Christ, the “arm of the Lord” is not a separate personality from the Father, likewise the Holy Spirit, the “hand of the Lord” (see Is. 48:16). What a beautiful portrayal of the divine “Head”, “Arm”, and “Hand” or “Finger”, all distinct Personalities in the unity of the Godhead; illustrations coming long before the Papal GOD BLOB theories arrived on the scene!!
And remember too that Church members, and married couples, are depicted just like the members of the Godhead, that is, distinct as personalities, but being in perfect unity, as being of one substance; only that Man is flesh and blood, and God is spirit, in substance.

So let me repeat your own watchwords again:

"But to us there is but one God, the Father [INSEPARABLE FROM HIS SPIRIT], of whom are all things,
and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
-1 Corinthians 8:6

"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."
-Ephesians 2:18

IF YOU WANT TO SEE ONLY TWO PERSONALITIES IN THE ABOVE, THEN THAT IS YOUR CHOICE, BECAUSE IF I AM A TRUE ADVENTIST, I WOULD SPEAK AS E.G. WHITE DID. SHE SAW THREE "ETERNAL HEAVENLY DIGNITARIES" IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES, AND DECLARED WE SHOULD PLEDGE TO "SERVE" ALL THREE. YOU CANNOT DEFEAT THAT TRUTH. OR CAN YOU? I SEE YOU REALLY TRYING HARD.Anyway, in closing, let me say, LOVE YOU MY BROTHER!!
_________________
Derrick Gillespie (Mr)

alb · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

gillespie9669 · Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:53 pm Post subject:

Dear “alb”’

I really do appreciate your passionate bid to rescue my soul from “Babylon”, and if I didn’t know what I know, then I would probably agree with you in everything you say, since it sounds convincing (on the surface). I think you have some very good points, but if one looks a little closer at your argumentation, it would be recognized that you do have a serious dilemma on your hands. I will try to be as amicable as possible, as I do think you have good intentions, but I fear your zeal is not according to full knowledge, or a full understanding of spiritual matters. Before your ego takes over, just take a deep breath, focus, strive to be humble, hear what I have to say, and then address ALL that I say; not just SOME things, things that you feel you can get a foot into the door (as is evident in your responses so far).
YOU HAVE ASKED ME TO SPEAK AS A TRUE ADVENTIST WHO SUPPORTS BIBLICAL TRUTH, AND NOT A PAPAL TYPE WHO MISREPRESENTS TRUTH BY MIXING TRUTH AND ERROR. Have you been paying attention? That’s what I have been doing all along, by declaring all that I have declared so far. How can I prove that I have been doing so? Well, let me demonstrate this by showing you the dilemma I would face if I FULLY supported your views, or your theology.

You declared:

alb · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

gillespie9669 · Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:44 am Post subject: I AM SOLA SCRIPTURA TO THE BONE!!

Dear "alb",
You sound like a 'first day' preacher who tries to make null and void one truth at the expense of EXALTING the other. So therefore, salvation by faith alone, for instance, negates (in his mind) the inevitable link to obedience. Well I accept the inseparable unity of the two truths "faith without works is dead", and I show my faith BY my works, but to glorify the Father (not as the basis of my salvation, but the fruit). Likewise, "sola scriptura" ALSO says you must obey 2 Chronicles 20:20, and 1 Thess. 5:19-21. That is what true Adventism is all about. Run from it all you want. You 'copping out' on this truth is an indication of your difficulty with finding a comfort zone in your spirit with ALL the writings of the "SOP" (not just some portions) and the testimony of your SDA brethren led by the Spirit. The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy compliments, and confirms each other, SINCE THE SAME SPIRIT SPEAKS THROUGH BOTH.
The rest of your arguments are just round about, specious and reeks with deceptive and convenient use of terms without accepting the absolutes. e.g. Jesus being "from ALL eternity". It is heresy to say angels are "from ALL eternity". Need I say more? I leave you to rant and rave all you like, but that again is your democratic and God-given privilige. I have nothing more to say except the "Lord God and the LAMB" STILL REMAINS THREE PERSONS, NOT FOUR OR TWO AS YOUR FIXED FORMULA WOULD HAVE ME RESPOND TO. "The Lord God AND His Spirit" sending the Messiah(as in Is. 48:16) gives you one or two personalities? Inseparability does not negate distinction!! That is why Revelation (from which you continue to quote your 'pet text') begins with it coming from three Persons (Rev. 1:4); NOT TWO AND NOT FOUR. But the blindest person is he who will not see. I wonder how you get two to be a Trio? Or do you reject the testimony of the Spirit, by exalting YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE? I will debate no further. We clearly define things differently, and have a different view on the place of the "SOP" writings. Also, until you accept ALL Dictionary definitions, not just some, conveniently, I guess we are wasting each other's time. Your next response (if any) will not meet with an answer from me beacuse I think we have both made our positions clear, and debate will not solve anything, but stir up strife. Believe me when I tell you, all you have said I have heard it all before (even put more strongly too), and I still remain unmoved because I must be true to God, His Son, AND His Spirit, the "Three Eternal Heavenly Dignitatries" (to quote you know who). Just read all my posts on this chat site and leave it at that. God bless.
_________________
Derrick Gillespie (Mr)

alb · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Posts: 6

Brother I agree ith you that the authentic inspired writings, unaltered by the 'keepers of the vault' will NEVER contradict the Word. Proponents are doing theses authentic writings by ibterpreting the Word through it!

Why not read the writings thre the Bible NOT the other way around?!

As your answer is not two Persons, you've said your peace, and I mine.

I shake the dust off and move on. May God's truth penetrate your soul before it's too late....

Jeremiah 3:3

gillespie9669 · Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:06 pm Post subject: