The Godhead Is Not Three Persons

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 136

I would say then that the meaning of any text of Scripture in not solely based on the gender of the words involved, but on the context of the entire passage and the relation of that passage with the rest of the Bible.

asimplmn · is under review Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 10

If Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father today and EVERYTHING we ask in His name is given to us...
Why is it you don't understand the trinity?
Have you REALLY seached the whole bible or should I give you the scripture reference?

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 136

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

This is the truth and this is plain.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

This I believe, God sent his Son.

"And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation." 2Cor. 5:18

asimplmn · is under review Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 10

I am not sure how the mission of Jesus Christ disputes the trinity but, if you'd like to ignore all the scriptures that explain that through Him we are made as great as Him then, you can miss out on the Kingdom of heaven if you'd like. I won't argue with you any more than Jesus argued with Judas when He told Him what you must do go do quickly. I am only trying to show you a greater way and the the Way.
He said what He said in what you wuote because until then, when was Our Father in Heaven metioned? The Lord was known by a different name but, through Jesus Christ a new covenant has been revealed, one in grace and mercy instead of rituals and sacrifices. There is no contradiction in the scriptures, only miss interpretations. So I explained to you your quotations without contradiction to the Way.
Are you able to explain what is written in Jn 14:11-14 or ignore it still?

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 136

While Jesus is divine and has the same character as his Father, he is not the Father. And it is the Father that is described as The God of the Bible.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the) God, and the Word was God (divine). The same was in the beginning with (the) God." John 1:1-2 The Greek definite article is applied only to the Father.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1Corinthians 8:6.

"Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort." 2Corinthians 1:2-3

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." Ephesians 1:3.

The God of the Bible is the Father. Jesus is however the Son of God and therefore he is equal to his Father.

"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18.

The Bible is clear on who God is. Trinitarianism disputes this and confuses the issue. In trinitarianism you have a God who is three persons or three Gods or three phases of the same God. There seems to be many ways of trying to explain a theory that was popularized by Plato and then brought into the Church in full force through the schools of Alexandria and the controversy that arose under the leadership of Constantine. Yes, the same Constantine that was emperor when Sunday worship was made law. Yes, the same Constantine who was said to have converted to Christianity but who actually brought paganism into the Church.

Jesus makes it quite clear, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

asimplmn · is under review Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 10

I understand who Jesus is and who the Father is or, the mission of the Father in Jesus and the mission of Jesus for man (or that is to say, how He has been revealed). It would be very easy for me to say that then, (by your words in your interpretation) the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is false since He is known as the Almighty (and not the Father) or the God of Moses in Yahweh (and not the Father) is also false. Why not? It is what you say? There is only one true God and He is the Father, isn't He? I understand perfectly what you are saying but you want to ingore this or that passage for the sake of your interpretation...and I understand that is not what you are saying (that the God of Abraam, Issac and Jacob is false) but, you keep avoiding how it is that THE NAME OF JESUS is greater than Jesus Christ (ref. Jn. 14:13). I say to you that it is written here (and other places that I may show you once you embrace this one). We are (can be, should be) great in His name for His glory thus the trinity.
What good is life eternal if its not in heaven and what good is life now if its not in His name and for the glory of the true God? You say I am less than Him and I say to you that because of Him the true God has been revealed in me and He is with me through the Son in the power of (true) love that is found at the cross. The Cross He chose for me and the cross I've picked up to follow Him but you say that even if I pick up my cross He is greater because the true God cannot live in me or be with me but only the Son.
What you say is (any way you look at it), a contradiction to the truth in the Way) and the name of the true God and the name revealed to us through the Son for His glory in us. One cannot accept only certain portions of the scripture and say; It is as it is written. Again, then all else before then in the scriptures is false and one could even say that even Jesus Christ is false because His sacrifice offering was in the way of YAHWEH who is a false god because He is not refered to as the Father, and the Father, according to your interpretation of what is written is the only true God.
One has to understand what is written and how it is written in its proper interpretation, not for the sake of a religion in a certain theology but, in its reality. The God of the prophets in Israel is the same as Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the same as the Father (as you say). I really have a tough time believing that you do not believe in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob as the true God because of His name (The Almighty) and the prophets as true (because their God does not have the name Father) before Jesus Christ because His name is not Father then, Jesus Christ should have come through a different nation. Any nation for that matter and should not have refered to the scriptures of Isaiah because His God was false or refered to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob as the God of the living. Isaiah was false and so are all the prophesies in Him, he did not call the true God Father, did He? Neither did Abraham, Issac and Jacob And again I tell you that what I tell you is for His glory in you, if you want it. I tell you what I tell you so that you may believe and be greater than you are today when you embrace the true God in you.
You'll not convince me of what is less than what I know because of what He has revealed to me and what I've seen thorugh His glory in me. And, I don't tell you what I tell you hoping to convince you. If you'd like to apply it and be greater then, to God be the glory. I've told you nothing but, if you'd rather not because you'd rather believe in only what you want to believe and ignore your contradictions then, you have that choice too. Again, He gives you that choice, not me.

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 136

Well my friend it seems as though you have done what most others have done. You have labeled what you did not understand. You have assumed conclusions not stated.

You said, “It would be very easy for me to say that then, (by your words in your interpretation) the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is false since He is known as the Almighty (and not the Father) or the God of Moses in Yahweh (and not the Father) is also false.”

Where the Bible calls God our Father I also call God our Father, and where the Bible calls God the Almighty, I call God the Almighty, and where He is called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob That is who He is and there is no dispute.

You also assume that since I said that Christ is not the Father that I am saying that Christ is less than God is. For this I refer you to a text that I quoted, “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18. This to me shows that Jesus Christ in being the Son of God was equal with God. (See also Philippians 2:6). The equality of the Father and the Son is not a problem for me.

Jesus the Son of God came to show us the Father, He came to reconcile us to the Father, and He came to make a way for us back to the Father. Who is it that hidden from our view? Who is it that we need to be reconciled with? Who is it that we are trying to get back to? The answer is the Father. And the only way to accomplish this is through Jesus Christ. Therefore the Bible makes this statement, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

asimplmn · is under review Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 10

[quote]"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the) God, and the Word was God (divine). The same was in the beginning with (the) God." John 1:1-2 The Greek definite article is applied only to the Father.

This is the scripture reference you used and this is what you quoted. No, there is no assumption, only avoidance of the truth by you and maybe a misunderstanding of the covenant to us through Jesus Christ because you clearly expressed that the creator is the Father and that the Father is the only true God. What is there to assume?

There is a covenant with Abraham, there is a covenant with The Israelites and there is a covenant with the people of the world through Jesus Chrsit for the kingdom of heaven. That much you do understand now and now accept but again, I say to you that when you call on any other name of God instead of the name of Jesus, you rob yourself. (Ref. Mt. 10:11, Jn. 14:14).The covenant with the Father is indeed through Jesus Christ (the Son) and that the covenant is in the name of Jesus (The Holy Spirit sent by the Son (ref. Jn. 14:15-17). There is no confussion to me on this issue but you say that the God head is not three persons. My dear friend if you'd like to ignore the scripture references I have showed you instead of either embracing them or trying to explain them in your way that is your choice as you keep avoiding it saying it is confussing. Again, I say that you are trying to justify yourself rather, you should simply be and in this you may see. It seems to me that you find it confussing because you try to explain it in your light rather you should try to explain it as plain as it is written by the words spoken of the Master. I mean it does not get any clearer than that and it binds everything.
As for our reconciliation...
That is regarding paradise and even then the trinity is quite clear (unless you choose to ignore it gain) but if you'd like to try to explain what is written in Gen. 3 :22 in addition to what I've already showed you then my dear friend I am listening and ready to see what is of God for me to have a greater life if you think it will. as I've expressed to you, what I seek is to be more as Jesus Christ came so that I could be more and again I tell you that what I tell you is so you can be more, if you so choose. Frankly, I don't see how your way is greater in His kingdom but, in three persons I have the fulness of God in me.
I'll try to explain it to you in a way that you may understand. Who is greater in the United States, is it the people or the government? It is a government for the people by the people. Without one the other is dead and without their fathers, who established the constitution and the bill of rights they are both dead, aren't they? Well, it is similar with the kingdom of heaven, except it is a perfect kingdom, which is greater than any nation established by men becasue man is not perfect. As Jesus Christ came expressing perfect love and the the law is based on love then he who believes and loves has eternal life. There is no condition, it is by grace that He did not come to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. Watch what He said carefully because He did not express that He came to fulfill prophesies but prophets therefore, He speaks of us and how can we live with the Lord in the kingdom of heaven being less than the prophets in Israel?
Ref. Mt. 5: 17-20.
Again, more scripture for you to study and try to explain in your interpretation of life in the kingdom of heaven and the reality of life in the the Spirit or not, you can again, continue to ignore what is clearly written saying that there is nothing written.
but, just more thoughts for you to ponder...
The religion of the United States is capitalism and those who bring it to its reality have life there and the better the understanding the better the life. The same thing with the kingdom of heaven and the cross.

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 136

The Bible teaches “That at the name of Jesus every knee should…And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord” Philippians 2:10,11 And again, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12.

The Bible also teaches, “For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself.” Colossians 1:19,20. “And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.” 2Corinthians 5:18. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh onto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

Salvation is reconciliation to God. We are saved when we are reconciled to God. And, this reconciliation can only happen through Christ. Who is Christ? The Bible says that he is the Son of God (John 3:16, John 20:31). Jesus Christ represents God to us and represents us to God. He came to this earth and lived the perfect life that we might see with our own eyes the love of the Father. He also returned to heaven to stand before the Father on our behalf (1John 2:1).

Who is God? “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my bretheren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” John 20:17. “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 1:7 “Grace be unto you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Corinthinans 1:3. According to Jesus and the Disciples our God and the sovereign of the universe is our heavenly Father. They were quite familiar with the Old Testament, as that was their Bible. From that they recognized that God was the Father and that the Christ would be the Son of God. “Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16. So, Who is God? The Father is God. Who is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God.

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” 1Corinthians 15:24,28 All will ultimately go to the Father!

gillespie9669

THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD IS MISLEADING!!

Dear Steve and Mickey,
You speak with great authority on the subject of who God is. Steve, I do think you already realize from my past correspondences with you that you and I do not fully agree, and what I say to you goes for Mickey as well. You know that I share the thought that God is primarily and ultimately THE FATHER!! But John 20:28, 29 alone is sufficient to prove that Jesus is God in "in the highest sense" JUST LIKE THE FATHER!! If the Father is God in the highest sense, so is Jesus!!

The word "God" in John 20:28 has the definate article in Greek, so it reads "ho Theos mou"- THE GOD OF ME!! In that one moment Jesus acknowledged that if we call Him our God we are never in error. I wonder how you reconcile this with Exodus 20:3 if only the Father is your God.

And don't tell me that this text meant Jesus was simply divine in equal terms like the Father; IT MEANS OH SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT IN THIS INSTANCE, THAT IS, HE IS THE GODHEAD JUST LIKE THE FATHER!! I already know why most New Testament texts present Jesus, THE INCARNATE ONE, as functioning in a SEEMINGLY inferior role to the Father-- THAT IS THE PRICE HE PAID FOR HIS INCARNATION TO SECURE OUR REDEMPTION (See Phillipians 2:5-11 and 1Cor. 15:22-28). His Messiahship will always seem to present Him in that light, even in "the end when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father". Only after His incarnation is the Father Jesus' God, i.e. the supreme object of His worship!! See the reason for this truth in Hebrews 2:11-14.

A balanced view of Scripture seeks not to highlight one truth at the expense of the other. Jesus is the Godhead MANIFESTED, and is part of the Godhead just like the Father, SO EVEN THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD IS MISLEADING!! He is not just God in the sense of being a divine Son, but is God in "the highest sense" OF BEING THE HIGHEST OBJECT OF WORSHIP JUST LIKE, AND IN EQUAL TERMS WITH THE FATHER, THAT IS, AS ONE OF THE "THREE HOLIEST BEINGS IN HEAVEN".

Note the corrective counsels of Mrs. White on the matter of who the Godhead REALLY IS:

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 136

I was simply pointing out that 99% of the the time in the New Testament where the word God is used it is speaking of the Father. Therefore when one uses the term God from a Biblical standpoint to whom are we referring? The God of the Bible is the Father. Jesus, however, is no inferior. His incarnation did not make him inferior. "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." Philippians 2:9 Jesus is no inferior being. Being the Son of the living God, He is God in the highest sense. "...But said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18 Jesus humbled himself and subordinated himself but that does not make him a lesser being. "Jesus saith into him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:11. To worship Christ is to bring glory to the Father, therefore Jesus could in no way be a lesser being. If God is the sovereign of the universe and has all power in his hands, then his Son could be no less.

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:23 am Post subject: The correct percentage

gillespie9669 · Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:34 am Post subject:

Dear Steve and Eugene,
You both are indeed correct in your response, but that was not the issue I raised, was it? I too see that fact about the New Testament's use of the word "God" for mostly the Father (notice mostly, NOT only), BUT IN THE FACE OF JESUS' INCARNATION, and I acknowledge it wholeheartedly. But what about the Old Testament? Can you confidently say the same there? But that is a side issue here because the issue is about the misleading title of the thread, "THE GODHEAD IS NOT THREE PERSONS". Why sidestep that issue Steve? Is it that you have no real foundation upon which to defend this statement- whether from the dictionary, Spirit of prophecy writings, historical data, etc? And remember all this is relevant because the word "Godhead" is an extrabiblical term used in a certain context to summarize the full landscape of the Biblical data about divinity, and the true Christian Godhead. If even Mrs. White uses it in contradiction to the title of this thread, then why not address that issue?

In closing, let me ask, have you ever thought about who was being seen and worshipped in vision in the Old Testament text of Isaiah 6:1-10, for instance? Well let the inspired pen answer for us as she captured the meaning of John 12:39-42:

dedication · Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject:

When the Bible speaks of "God' in the OT, it is speaking of the Father 99% of the time?

No, I disagree!
While Christ and the Father are ONE GOD-- thus in it's fullest sense the statement is true-- YET, God manifested in the Old Testament is Jesus.

He is the ONE who formed Adam from the dust of the earth and breathed into His nostrils the breath of life!
How do I know-- the Bible tells me "All things were created by Him and through Him, and without Him was not anything created that was created." (John 1:3, Eph. 3:9, Col. 1:16)

He was the ONE Who spoke to Abraham, Moses etc. --
The "I AM"
For Christ identifies Himself as the "I AM"

John 8.58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Christ is God manifested --
He is the ONE WHO SPEAKS in the Old Testament.

God the Father and God the Son are not divided.

"The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person." (EGW)

John 1.18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

dedication · Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:58 pm Post subject:

The Spirit of Prophecy clearly tells us there are three persons in the Godhead.