And you can't provide us with anything from the Scripture that would even suggest anything against the teaching of the trinity.
Here's the difference - and they are miles and miles apart.
The doctrine of God according to fundy #2, i.e., tradition:
"There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit..."
The doctrine of God according to the word of God:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father..."
These two concepts, God's word and fundy #2 are mutually exclusive and can never be harmonized. Which one do you accept brother, tradition, or God's word?
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 52 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 1:39 pm Post subject:
Steve, you keep telling me that "they" are one in purpose. The very fact that you agree to use the pronoun "they" shows that you believe in Three Persons of the Godhead. They are not one in person, because they are three distinct persons. They are three distinct persons but one in purpose. That is the mystery of the Godhead, the mystery of the Trinity. If God was one Being with three heads, then we would have something like what is often portrayed with monsters having multiple heads!
Either Jesus is God "in the highest sense" or He is not God at all! Do we understand what is meant here by "in the highest sense?"
The Jehovah's Witnesses use Isaiah 43:10 as another of their favorite passages of Old Testament Scripture to show that there is no such thing as the trinity:
"Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."
They often use this passage of Scripture which clearly says that Jehovah is God and only Him. But it is Jesus Christ Himself speaking in these verses!
Read the next verses: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no Savior.... You are My witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. Yea, before the day was, I am He... Thus saith the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel... I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." Isaiah 43:10-15.
What the Jehova's witnesses cannot see is that Jesus Christ is the One speaking in these verses. When He was on earth, He quoted the very words quoted above and applied them to Himself:
"I said, therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall died in your sins... Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He." John 8:24,28.
Think about it, in these verses Jesus declares: "I am He." "Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10.
Now the Jehovah's Witnesses use this verse to show that Jehovah is God, the only true God. And here Jesus applies these words to Himself! I could see why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for by applying these words to Himself He was declaring Himself to be Jehovah, the only true God!
These verses alone powerfully show that we ought to be very careful as to how we are to treat this subject. "Take off the shoes from off your feet for you are on holy ground."
That is all I am saying to you. I don't pretend to be able to explain the Godhead. I don't pretend to be able to explain anything. God alone is wise and He alone possesses knowledge. All I am trying to say is that we have sufficient evidence from the Scriptures to show us that the trinity or the Godhead is a deep mystery and because we cannot explain it is no reason why we should deny it. We will have eternity to study it without ever coming to a full understanding of it. So let us be careful, very careful, as to how we treat this subject! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
All I am trying to say is that we have sufficient evidence from the Scriptures to show us that the trinity or the Godhead is a deep mystery and because we cannot explain it is no reason why we should deny it.
Without a doubt, God is beyond the finite mind's finding out to perfection. There are many gems in God's Word that He has been pleased to reveal. And others that He has not. What God has revealed about Himself is that He is ONE SINGULAR PERSON, not a conglomeration of three-fold deities rolled up into one Godhead! You keep saying that the Godhead is a mystery that cannot be understood yet you keep claiming authoritatively that the Godhead is composed of three deities but without the authoritative backing of scripture. So, where do you get this understanding from? Its not from the bible, for you haven't produced one scripture yet defining God as triune and yet you castigate those that point out plainly from the bible, plain scriptures declaring that God the Father is the "only true God". You make absolutely NO sense. You keep telling us that its vital for our salvation and not to be struck down by God's wrath to believe a doctrine that you can't even substantiate from God's word - with not even one clear passage! How rediculous! This is just as nonsensical as those that tell us that we must accept Sunday as the Lord's Day even though nobody can produce not one clear passage of scripture which defines Sunday as the Lord's Day! It surely looks like Adventism is becoming more "babylonish" in their theology and in employing illogical logic in defending doctrines that are mere traditions of men. May God have mercy on us and help us.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 52 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:34 pm Post subject:
Mickey! Be reasonable. Just now I have quoted Isaiah 43 and John 8 and again you accuse me of not being able to produce one iota of Scripture to substantiate my position! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Mickey! Be reasonable. Just now I have quoted Isaiah 43 and John 8 and again you accuse me of not being able to produce one iota of Scripture to substantiate my position!
OK, let me approach the issue in this manner.
Where in Isaiah 43 and John 8 is God defined as a trinity?
Sunday woirshippers quote Scriptures that allude to Sunday, but there are not direct statements like the ones that support the seventh-day Sabbath like "And God blessed the seventh day..." Gen. 2:3. The same is true of the Trinity. There are those that use Scriptures to ALLUDE to God being a Trinity but no direct statements like the ones that say God is the Father (John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, 2 Cor. 1:2, Eph. 1:2; 4:6, James 3:9, 1Pet. 1:3, etc.) And there are many more.
Well said, Steve. That's the point I was trying to make. You said it better than I did. Thanks.
The fundamental essential doctrines of the christian faith are not established by hints or allusions. They are direct utterances of inspiration. Like you said, Steve, just because the New Testament mentions the first day of the week a grand total of 8 times doesn't prove that God's Sabbath was transferred from the 7th day to the 1st day. Out of those 8 passages, not one time is it established in scripture that Sunday is the Lord's Day. Not one time! On the other hand, there are a multitude of scriptures which teach us that God's holy day is the 7th day, one of them being smack in the center of God's moral law of ten commandments. The same thing applies to the doctrine of the trinity. There's no clear teaching of the trinity any more than there is on the Sunday sabbath. They are just allusions, actually DELUSIONS for folks read in their pre-conceived ideas into those texts and build up a doctrine and then set up a creed and then demand that all people follow them. Isn't that rediculous?
The bedrock foundation doctrines of the christian faith are established by direct utterances of inspiration, not by ambiguity and theological wrangling. The doctrine of creation is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. The doctrine of the incarnation is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. The doctrine of the mortality of the soul is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. The doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. The doctrine of the 2300 days is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. The doctrine of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. The doctrine of the judgement is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. And finally but most importantly, the doctrine of God is not hinted or alluded to - it is directly taught. And the bible directly tells us that there is but one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6). The bible never tells us that there is but one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The bible doesn't even hint at that. Something interesting that I've come across: I've met a couple of people over the years that never had any formal religious training and all of them had this one thing in common. They never heard of the trinity concept. From their bibles, they learned that there is one God, the Father. They learned that the Father begot a Son in His express image. They learned that His Spirit was God Himself, His personal presence. They were taught directly from God in His word. I, like many others, on the other hand were taught from day one that God is a trinity. I never understood it but just accepted it because that's what I was taught and that's what all of the learned christians believed and taught as truth. But God has led me, through the study of His word, to unlearn the trinity, and now I realize more than I ever did before, the blessed knowledge and understanding of the magnitude of God's love for me in giving up His only begotten Son - that I may have eternal life and live forever with Him!
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