Angels, good and bad

Bouchard · Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 9:05 pm Post subject: Angels, good and bad

This view may be "un-biblical", if it IS, tell me and I'll repent

The Bible APPEARS to present angels (good and bad ones) as servants of God. I mean, they ALL do His will. God DOES occasionally use "bad guys" to do things. Just look at 1Samuel chapter 18 where God sends an "evil spirit" to Saul. It DOESN'T say anything about God pouring out some wrath on Saul but clearly something bad is supposed to happen so an "evil spirit" does the job.
It's my contention that since God is perfect in all His ways, He cannot "do evil" to anyone. Therefore, the "wrath of God" MUST be carried out by other beings, namely "evil spirits".
Now to the main question: (or statement)
I contend that the "wrath of God" that is described in Revelation is actually carried out by unsuspecting demons who, under the command of Satan, carry out terrible things. Satan himself is "allowed" by God to terrorize the earth.
Is this "apostate" in some way? Do we have to believe that God Himself will be wreaking havoc on this earth? Do I have this all wrong?

thanks,

Ken Bouchard
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Eugene Shubert

Hi Ken,

Welcome to the forum.

Let me challenge your basic thesis. Adolph Hitler ordered the execution of 6 million Jews. While Hitler may not be directly culpable for a full 6 million deaths (because it’s much easier to decree executions than to carry them out), isn’t the instigator of evil, evil?

I don’t believe your idea is new. There is presently an evil cult within the Seventh-day Adventist church that is hissing and biting at loyal members, and seducing church administrators with an idea that’s very similar to what you’re proposing. I recognize this cult for what it is and have classified it as essentially Gnostic.

“The basic premises common to the many varieties of Gnostic belief were that since God is good and the material world is evil, he cannot have created it” (David Christie-Murray, A History Of Heresy, p. 21). The basic premise of Neo-Gnostic Adventism is that since God is good and those who kill are evil, then God has nothing to do with meting out punishment in a final judgment.

“These systems were philosophical in that the problem which concerned all Gnostics was the reconciliation of the existence of evil with God who is good; religious because they offered salvation”, salvation by gnosis.

Bouchard · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:05 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the reply Eugene. In reading it, I get the definite impression that once again, I've failed to make myself clear. The bottom line is that I believe that God uses "evil angels" to do some of His bidding. That's it in a "nutshell". In light of that part of 1Samuel where an "evil spirit" is sent to Saul, this appears to be a logical assumption, doesn't it?

thanks,

Ken
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Eugene Shubert · Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:31 pm Post subject:

Yes, God sometimes uses "evil angels" to do His bidding (1 Samuel 18:10). The larger view is that God is sovereign over all creation. God had appointed a great fish to swallow a disobedient prophet (Jonah 1:17). God had hardened the heart of Pharaoh so that He could display great wonders in Egypt (Ex 10:1,2). God has also used Roman armies to destroy many of the Jews and to burn Jerusalem (Matt 22:7). There is no instrument beyond God’s control.

Bouchard · Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 3:51 pm Post subject:

OK Eugene, we're on the same page. (I think)
Yes, God did indeed use those Roman armies to do punishing things and yes, He even used somebody like Nebuchadnezzar to punish the Israelites. Yes, nobody is beyond His reach as far as being used by Him. My assertion was merely that He also uses "unsuspecting demons" to accomplish certain things.

thanks,
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Eugene Shubert · Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 8:05 am Post subject:

Ken,

I interpret the fifth trumpet (Rev 9:1-12) as the entire demon force of hell being unleashed at the end time. But clearly, the seven angels who pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God (Rev 16) are heavenly angels, not demons (Rev 15:6).

Bouchard · Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 8:14 pm Post subject:

Makes sense, Eugene. Now that I think about it. Have you read "Apollyon"? (one of the "Left Behind" series)

Ken
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Eugene Shubert · Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 9:37 pm Post subject:

Ken, I haven’t. I regard the "Left Behind" theory as completely unbiblical. I would love to talk about the secret rapture, dispensationalism or any of that stuff with you, but it would have to be over in The Dragon, Beast and False Prophet Convention Center. Introduce a topic over there and I’ll happily reply.

adventbeliever · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:46 pm Post subject:

Bouchard: is the following statement more in your line of thinking?

"Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.'" R&H Vol.4, p.335; P.P.98; 8 T 50.
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Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.

Bouchard · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:54 pm Post subject: self-imposed wrath?

OK, I'll go along with that! Something like this may have been going on in Iraq as the "Prince of Persia" has been allowed to work his evil schemes through Saddam's regime because "the cup of iniquity is full". (and, by the way, that "cup of iniquity" was most likely filled by the inhabitants of the area practicing "devil worship" in the guise of a "great religion")

thanks,

Ken
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Jesus is alive