Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted April 25, 2000 12:03 PM            

The following doubts have been expressed in this forum.

Eugene, I have been to your website. Forgive me. I am just not sharp enough to wade through the complicated profusity of all the information found there. Nor do I believe it is within SoP permission to put together compilations or get into denominational laundry before the general public.

Instead of ruining the original thread by getting off its designated topic, please permit me to not “Stay with the Ship” but move in another direction. Let’s get into this idea of not showing dirty laundry in public. What does Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy have to say about it? Here is my initial reaction.

RayEF,

Dirty laundry for some is the gospel for others. Church leaders throughout our denomination have taken a public stand that the highest expression of the gospel of the kingdom of God (in the situations referred to) is in their appeal to the civil powers to crush dissent or any other gospel.

I believe you err in referring to this as ordinary “denominational laundry.” Doctrinally, this falls under the jurisdiction of the three angels of Revelation 14, not the three unclean spirits of Revelation 16. Please don’t pretend that there’s a neutral position.

Also, you mustn’t complain that you’re not sharp enough to wade through the complicated profusity of all the information found in a library. — http://www.everythingimportant.org/ is a library. The sign at the top of the library says this:

This web site has a great aim. The Spirit of Prophecy says, “Gather up the rays of light that have been slighted and rejected. Gather them up with meekness, with trembling, and with fear.” (I think it’s how the writing of the Bible got started!) In context, and in obedience to the Holy Spirit, here is my collection of extremely important truths that are slighted and rejected by God’s appointed remnant church.

Ray, you say you’ve been at my website. You must have read this sign? Where do you get the idea that one should not obey the directives given us in the Spirit of Prophecy?

Eugene S

[This message has been edited by Eugene Shubert (edited April 25, 2000).]

Posts: 905
From:Fredericton, NB Canada
Registered: Mar 2000

posted April 25, 2000 12:22 PM            

Hi Eugene,

I have been to your website also.

Could you give me a reference for the following quote?

The Spirit of Prophecy says, “Gather up the rays of light that have been slighted and rejected. Gather them up with meekness, with trembling, and with fear.”

------------------
In His Love, Mercy and Grace

Daryl.

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited April 25, 2000).]

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted April 25, 2000 01:01 PM            

Daryl,

That quote is from Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 93-94. If there is a single Adventist out there who doesn’t know of this resource, they can SEARCH THE WRITINGS at The OFFICIAL Ellen G. White Website, http://www.egwestate.org/

Eugene S

Posts: 181
From:Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Registered: Apr 2000

posted May 02, 2000 03:14 AM            

Eugene

I have been to your web site. I don't know how you can call it "light," or "gospel," or anything of use. It is very easy to use Ellen G. White's writings to say whatever you want them to. Most Catholics I know wouldn't even privately speak of SDA's the way you do publicly, on your web site.

Christ is not the centre of your "facts." Something else is.

I can see that you have joined the crowd.

People all over the world, are setting up their own religions, and broadcasting their religiosity on their own web pages.

It's easy to do what ever we want to for our religion right now. You can find whatever kind of religion you want. And no one stops us from doing it. Right now, we are free as a kite when it comes to religion.

Soon, all these false religions, that specialize in dissecting others, by laying before the world all the "alleged mistakes," of anyone that they don't agree with, will end.

Unless our message is totally centred in Christ, (Jo.14:6), we will never make it.

The test will come to everyone...whatever they are promoting will be tested by fire:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it; because it shall be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." (1 Cor.3:13).

"In order to be firmly anchored, there must be something firm to hold us; and nothing will avail until Christ takes possession of the soul...Many who now appear strong, and talk in vindication of the Truth, are not rooted and grounded. They have no tap-root, and when the storms of opposition and persecution comes; they are like a tree uprooted by the blast." (R&H, April 29th, 1884).

In the meantime, I see you have found what you are looking for.

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by 2davidincalgary (edited May 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by 2davidincalgary (edited May 02, 2000).]

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

Dear Mr. Moderator,

You say that my website has neither “light” or “gospel” or anything of use. I’m not sure how to answer. Are you expressing a thoughtful, well-reasoned review or a barrage of prejudices? You couldn’t find anything of use? What about Inspiration for Seventh-day Adventists to not be Pharisaical?

I’ll assume that you skipped over The Gospel of the Kingdom of God. I’ll have you know that the good news of the Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of Heaven) is the gospel according to Jesus. All should consider speaking of this topic with great reverence. Under this topic, I list an article given the church by the Spirit of Prophecy. It is not a compilation. I repeat: The article by Ellen G. White is from God; it is cited in its entirety and is dismissed by many. The message contained there is no different than the message conveyed throughout the posted pages of http://www.everythingimportant.org/. For example, the authoritative compilation in the six part series, “The Third Angel’s Message Illustrated by its Application to Seventh-day Adventists” is merely a repetition of Jesus’ gospel for Seventh-day Adventists in an end-time setting.

You refer to the practice of Catholics as being some kind of standard of measure for what an acceptable straight testimony might be. You approve of the style and substance of reproof from most of the Catholics you know. Are you saying that these friends of yours are kinder, gentler and more Christian than Jesus, Elijah, John the Baptist or

IP: Logged

Posts: 138
From:Pugwash, NS Canada
Registered: Mar 2000

posted May 03, 2000 10:07 PM            

I'm jumping into the "fray" too. I went to your site too Eugene...I got "bogged down" too. Maybe it's too late for my brain to work, or maybe I'm not sharp enough, or maybe...?????
What is your message?
Keep "the" faith!
Br. Laurie

P.S> I just checked your website again...Maybe I'm too hasty...found The "justification-II" interesting. when I'm wider awake , will check again...You sound like an Indep Min. (that doesn't mean I'm against you)

[This message has been edited by Laurie Mosher (edited May 03, 2000).]

posted May 08, 2000 09:09 AM           

If we have an issue with anyone in the church,we have guidance in scripture that we are to follow in handling it.

Of course because I want it I can't find it.

I will keep looking, but it says that if we have any issue with a brother,we are to go to him and if he hears,well,we have kept our brother,if he doesn't,we are to take 2 or 3 witnesses and if he still refuses to listen , we are to bring it before the whole church.....if he still refuses to listen then he is to be put out of the church.

What if the one that is sinning,is a leader in the church and the corporate body refuses to do anything?

Guess I wasn't as clear as I thought I was.
I tried to say that any issue we have with anyone is to be handled as given us in scripture.
We are not to air it in public,we are instructed to do it privily,and even when we bring it before the church,there is no mention of airing it in front of the whole world.

------------------
He is Lord.
May He come soon.
Gerry

[This message has been edited by Gerald(Gerry) Buck (edited May 23, 2000).]

Posts: 71
From:Fryeburg, ME USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted May 23, 2000 08:33 AM            

Gerald,

Jesus said if your brother sins against you, go to him and him alone. That is not the same as open sin or open heresy. If the denomination takes public positions, such as the Perez, et al lawsuits into civil courts, public address of these issues is within circumspect boundaries. We have placed comments of these situations in the church/ state issues of our radio program. But when Mrs. White warned the editors of the Review not to print internal church hassles before the general public lest a situation arise that would take years to undo, such counsel would be wisely followed in our day as well.

Eugene, I did not look at everything at your site. I got a headache and left. I'm just being honest. What I recall was subject matter that brought to my mind some of EGW's counsels in the aforementioned comments, as well as things already stated by me elsewhere on this site.

Everyone has their convictions, Eugene. Do what you believe God is convicting you to do. Being defensive about it, as you have been, leaves me to wonder what your purpose is in it all. I cannot find inspired permission to do what you do. And it isn't a large enough issue for me to get embroiled in. If you believe you have God's permission, I leave you with God.

Peace,

RayEF

posted May 25, 2000 10:23 PM           

This instruction is given to the church , not to the general public.

We are to take our internal disagreements and troubles to each other and on until there is agreement.

We are told 'as far as possible with us , be at peace' with those around us.

If they refuse to be 'at peace' with us , the only recourse we have is the court system.

If we can come to an understanding , well and good.
Admitted , even God won't force us to do right , but , we are admonished to fight wrong with all our might , calling upon God to guide us.

Why do you think we have lawyers in the denomination?
To represent us in the world courts to stand up for our belief system and those that belong.

The wiorld isn't governed by our beliefs , and refuses to work in them , so , we need to be able to meet them on the field of battle where ever it is.

------------------
Better the storm WITH Christ,
than the smooth waters WITHOUT Him.

Gerry

Posts: 905
From:Fredericton, NB Canada
Registered: Mar 2000

posted May 25, 2000 11:04 PM            

Our church stands by and represents in the courts those who are suffering religious persecution by their employers when it comes to refusing to work on the Sabbath.

This is an obvious situation where the church will speak up for its members when they are persecuted for their religious beliefs.

------------------
In His Love, Mercy and Grace

Daryl.

Posts: 38
From:Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: May 2000

posted May 26, 2000 05:59 PM            

Okay Eugene, I was reading this forum and decided that I could not make any comment until I read what was being talked about, so I visited your website. Where on your site does it provide any Biblical viewpoints? Where do you back up you positions(?) with Scripture. Ellen White herself said that her writings were not to be held in a position of greater authority than the church. It sounds as if you are accusing the church? Of what? Where do you draw your accusations? Or is your message merely to warn Adventists of possible future problems? Quite honestly, it sounded as if someone had gotten on a high horse and was degrading the church at large, without backing up their words with any means that has legs to stand on its own. EGW is a wonderful SUPPLEMENT to the Bible, but her writings are not to replace the Bible.

posted May 26, 2000 06:24 PM           

You have a little more intestinal fortitude than I , Mrs. Moss.

I , too , have the same questions. From what I have read on your website , the central theme seems to be your quarrel with some church in Texas.

I also thought it strange that you quote no scripture , and that the SOP you quote sometimes seems to have nothing to do with the subject you are discussing.

------------------
Better the storm WITH Christ,
than the smooth waters WITHOUT Him.

Gerry

Posts: 181
From:Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Registered: Apr 2000

posted June 08, 2000 03:09 AM            

Hello Eugene

In the second paragraph of this post; you were talking about speaking about the gospel of the kingdom of God with "reverence."

By your previous sentence; you have ignored your own rule. "I'll have you know," is what I would call "ramming it down their throat any way you can."

I would like to see some real-life, personal testimonies of what Christ has done for you, and for others, through your "ministry" on the internet.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eugene Shubert:
Dear Mr. Moderator,

You say that my website has neither “light” or “gospel” or anything of use. I’m not sure how to answer. Are you expressing a thoughtful, well-reasoned review or a barrage of prejudices? You couldn’t find anything of use? What about Inspiration for Seventh-day Adventists to not be Pharisaical?

I’ll assume that you skipped over The Gospel of the Kingdom of God. I’ll have you know that the good news of the Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of Heaven) [b]is the gospel according to Jesus. All should consider speaking of this topic with great reverence. Under this topic, I list an article given the church by the Spirit of Prophecy. It is not a compilation. I repeat: The article by Ellen G. White is from God; it is cited in its entirety and is dismissed by many. The message contained there is no different than the message conveyed throughout the posted pages of http://www.everythingimportant.org/. For example, the authoritative compilation in the six part series, “The Third Angel’s Message Illustrated by its Application to Seventh-day Adventists” is merely a repetition of Jesus’ gospel for Seventh-day Adventists in an end-time setting.

You refer to the practice of Catholics as being some kind of standard of measure for what an acceptable straight testimony might be. You approve of the style and substance of reproof from most of the Catholics you know. Are you saying that these friends of yours are kinder, gentler and more Christian than Jesus, Elijah, John the Baptist or, am I permitted to say, Ellen G. White?

Jesus held up examples of wrongdoing practiced by Pharisees and Sadducees as evils that should not be imitated. I follow the pattern. The Spirit of Prophecy links together the message to the Laodicean church, the third angel’s message and the gospel. I do the same.

You have plenty of judgments! Do you have any factual, Biblical or Spirit of Prophecy objections to specific things that I say?

Eugene S[/B]

---

------------------
"The joy of the Lord will be our strength." (Neh.8:10).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted June 08, 2000 02:24 PM            

Are there discussions, differences and even debates between Seventh-day Adventists, on some issues, that should be made public?

The issue that really stirred Martin Luther was the sale of indulgences. This prompted Luther to write his 95 theses. To Luther this was a salvation issue. Therefore, Luther prefaced his 95 propositions with an invitation that they be openly discussed at Wittenberg.

There was only one church at the time (the universal Catholic church) and it was generally believed that the selling of indulgences was to be kept as a petty theological dispute within the confines of the church. No one showed up for Luther’s debate. Luther continued with his open protests and this eventually started the Protestant Reformation. Did Luther sin in this?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was adamant that the German Evangelical church should unite in a united voice of protest against Adolf Hitler. When the majority in his church went with Hitler, he went public. Was Bonhoeffer wrong? The Seventh-day Adventist church in Nazi Germany also conformed to the wishes of the state and Hitler’s oppression of the Jews. Only rebels would discuss “the Jewish question.” There were non-conformists among the Adventists also but the church publicly reproved them. Who was right?

Many situations could arise similar to the churches’ historic complicity with Hitler. Suppose the following:

A great Adventist Antichrist has come into our church and is tearing down the doctrines of Christ’s substitutionary atonement, justification by faith and Christ’s High Priestly intercession. As a substitute for these doctrines, this same person gives us, in their place, spiritualistic sophistries akin to pantheism.

Church leadership is accepting of things as they are and anyone expressing the boldness of Luther is regarded as unloving and critical.

Church leaders are either charmed by the new doctrines or know of the error and choose to be willfully deceived or silent.

The official policy of the church is that all must unite on a peace and safety message.

Things are such that should a non-conformist be found in the church, spreading a message of alarm that the omega prophecy is now fulfilled, all the power of church is pledged to fight against him.

By secret church decree, no Adventist is permitted to believe these things.

Let’s say that the church is very willing to crush all dissent and that the influence of the state is behind her.

Question:

If the deceptive power of this end-time Adventist Antichrist were so great that once you submit to his artful insinuations, it would be impossible to recover, and if the church openly approved of this antichrist and really was crushing all loving dissent, then would it be sin for an Adventist to openly protest on the Internet?

Eugene S

Posts: 41
From:Tawas City , Mi.
Registered: May 2000

posted June 08, 2000 08:14 PM            

Why won't you answer Davids request Eugene?

and I quote:

I would like to see some real-life, personal testimonies of what Christ has done for you, and for others, through your "ministry" on the internet.

I, also, would like to see some real life testimony.
Sorry, but so far, all I have seen is you duck the issue and keep on insisting that we read what you have posted on your web page. I have done so, and from what I have read, you seem to have an issue with the Texas conference and that seems to be the sum total of your website.

If I am wrong, then show me. Show me some real testimony of what your web site has done for others.

------------------
Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?
Gerry B.

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted June 09, 2000 01:51 AM            

Jesus, you seem to have an issue with the Pharisees and Sadducees. From all that I know about you, that seems to be the sum total of your message.

Rebuttal:

If all that Jesus stood and taught can be reduced to the statement that Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees and Sadducees, then it’s correct to say that the sum total of my message is an issue with church authorities. The expressly stated logic is that the Pharisees and Sadducees believe one way and Jesus believes another, and that’s it.

This criticism is somewhat simplistic. Gerry: If you would read my previous post, you would see that I’m delving into a deep (and therefore appropriate) theological question.

Why won't you answer Davids request Eugene?

and I quote:

I would like to see some real-life, personal testimonies of what Christ has done for you, and for others, through your "ministry" on the internet.

I, also, would like to see some real life testimony. ...

If I am wrong, then show me. Show me some real testimony of what your web site has done for others.

Please allow me to answer that question directly. See Luke 4:14-30. Is that testimony real enough? It is my personal testimony of what God has done for me. It is also my slant on what my testimony has done for everyone else on this thread.

Read this thread and see what my web site has done for others. Note this first. The express purpose of this thread was on the question of not showing dirty laundry in public. “What does Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy have to say about it?”

Note the parallel. When Jesus stated his valid theological observation, the word says “all in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things.” By all appearances, I’m getting the same reaction!

Instead of ruining the original thread by getting off its designated topic, please permit me to not “Stay with the Ship” but move in another direction. Let’s get into this idea of not showing dirty laundry in public. What does Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy have to say about it? Here is my initial reaction.

RayEF,

Dirty laundry for some is the gospel for others. Church leaders throughout our denomination have taken a public stand that the highest expression of the gospel of the kingdom of God (in the situations referred to) is in their appeal to the civil powers to crush dissent or any other gospel. I believe you err in referring to this as ordinary “denominational laundry.” Doctrinally, this falls under the jurisdiction of the three angels of Revelation 14, not the three unclean spirits of Revelation 16. Please don’t pretend that there’s a neutral position.

As I see it, no one answered Jesus. No one answered me. Jesus spoke truth so directly that He enraged everyone in His audience. I seem to have come close to attaining that. Likewise, Jesus didn’t feel that He had to stay around for a lynching (Luke 4:30); I felt that I didn’t have to submit to what I perceive as abusive, off-the-topic insults.

What Christ is living for is worth dying for. Let us imitate his life. In response to some of the off-the-topic remarks, I will only say this:

Some of you do not understand the purpose of the Spirit of Prophecy. Here it is:

“The Word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind, and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the Word of God their study, are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the Word that they have neglected to follow. The Word of God abounds in general principles for the formation of correct habits of living, and the Testimonies, general and personal, have been calculated to call their attention more especially to these principles.”

Some of you could not find any Biblical viewpoints or quotations from Scripture from my home page! I ask: How could you miss the direct hyperlink to my Biblically based book on prophecy? It’s in a bold red font.

quote:

---

Other Messages of Great Importance

God has revealed the greatest mysteries in Bible prophecy. This revelation is now ready for free online study. This two-volume work is a marvelous collection of many jewels, brilliant and dazzling, too numerous to count.

The Ends Of Time

---

Likewise, some of you missed the entire category on The Gospel of the Kingdom of God (which is visibly set apart on my home page with its own color and space) and then judged me for not promoting the gospel. What kind of ignorance is this?

Some of you have expressly testified to being Laodicean.

“There are many among us who are prejudiced against the doctrines that are now being discussed. They will not come to hear, they will not calmly investigate, but they put forth their objections in the dark. They are perfectly satisfied with their position. ‘Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent’ (Rev. 3:17-19).
“This scripture applies to those who live under the sound of the message, but who will not come to hear it.” 1SM 413-414.

Jesus said if your brother sins against you, go to him and him alone. That is not the same as open sin or open heresy. If the denomination takes public positions, such as the Perez, et al lawsuits into civil courts, public address of these issues is within circumspect boundaries.

What are these circumspect boundaries?

RayEF,

If Mrs. White warned the editors of the Review not to print internal church squabbles before the general public, do you really believe you can extrapolate that reference to a judgment against Luther, Bonhoeffer and Shubert? Please cite the reference you have used against me and state the reason for the issues I raise being in the category of a squabble.

Eugene S

[This message has been edited by Eugene Shubert (edited June 09, 2000).]

Posts: 41
From:Tawas City , Mi.
Registered: May 2000

posted June 09, 2000 11:30 AM            

Eugene, I have read the topics you indicated, and I had a hard tinme wading thru it.

My concern isn't over whether you thkink you are right or wrong.
My question was if any had been blessed by your web and how.

What has it accomplished?
Did it get the message across?
Any posts I have read all show uncertainty as to what you are trying to say.

Pretend for a minute, that I am not a theological mental giant.
Put in your own plain words what the mission of your web site is, and who has been ministered to other than yourself.
Thank you.
Gerry B.

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted June 09, 2000 12:23 PM            

Now Available For The First Time Ever: Pick The Straight Testimony You Like Best

“Christ was interrupted on this occasion as on many similar occasions. And he wished his disciples to listen to the words he had to say, and not allow anything to attract and hold their attention. Therefore he warned them, ‘Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.’ They feigned a desire to get as close as possible to the inner circle. As the Lord Jesus presented truth in contrast to error, the Pharisees pretended to be desirous of understanding the truth, yet they were trying to lead his mind in other channels. Hypocrisy is like leaven, or yeast. Leaven may be hidden in the flour, and its presence is not known until it produces its effect. By insinuating itself, it soon pervades the whole mass. Hypocrisy works secretly, and if indulged, it will fill the mind with pride and vanity. There are deceptions practiced now similar to those practiced by the Pharisees. When the Saviour gave this caution, it was to warn all who believe in him to be on guard. Watch against imbibing this spirit, and becoming like those who tried to ensnare the Saviour.” General Conference Daily Bulletin, February 17, 1897.

“The third angel’s message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory.” RH, May 27, 1890.

Eugene S

Posts: 905
From:Fredericton, NB Canada
Registered: Mar 2000

posted June 09, 2000 12:30 PM            

Does the Bible promote showing dirty laundry in public?

If a local church or conference has done you wrong, there is an appeal process to the next level which I understand is the union level.

Failing there, I assume you can also appeal to the next level right up to the General Conference.

Only after having gone through this whole appeal process should you even consider going public. However, after saying that, I believe the Bible referred to going public before the whole church not the whole world.

I believe Martin Luther tried to present his case first to the church leadership. Failing that he nailed his thesis (I forget how many) on the door of his own church. I don't believe he intended to announce it to the heathens of his day.

I, also, would like to read your testimony of what Christ has done in your life and is still doing in your life today. Please post your testimony in the appropriate forum provided for testimonials.

------------------
In His Love, Mercy and Grace

Daryl.

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted June 09, 2000 12:33 PM            

Gerry,

If you don’t understand the Spirit of Prophecy, may I suggest that you don’t ask me what it means but simply find a topic that you do understand.

Eugene S

Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted June 09, 2000 01:18 PM            

Daryl,

You err in believing that church leadership has any respect for their own appeal process or the testimony of Jesus in Matthew 18.

Furthermore, no one disputes the fact that we are to present our case first to the church leadership.

Is your answer yes or no to my question posted June 08, 2000 02:24 PM?

Eugene S

Posts: 41
From:Tawas City , Mi.
Registered: May 2000

posted June 09, 2000 02:22 PM            

Eugene, I have no problem understanding SOP.
Your use of it, yes, SOP, no.
Obviously you can't answer what we haveadsked you, so I will no longer waste my time on you.

Actually you have answered part of my inquiry, it is obvious from your posts that what you have put up on your web site has done you absolutely no good.

You continue to harangue any and all that have the audacity to ask you to explain yourself in laymans terms, then you condemn them because they don't accept your 'answers' that aren't really answers.

The true spirit behind your site is all to apparent to me.
If you can't convince, you condemn, sounds all to familiar to me.

------------------
Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?
Gerry B.

[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited June 09, 2000).]

Posts: 905
From:Fredericton, NB Canada
Registered: Mar 2000

posted June 09, 2000 03:16 PM            

I don't like what is happening here and the way it is being posted, therefore, I have temporarily closed this thread until I and the moderators make a decision on the future of this topic.

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited June 09, 2000).]