The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

This section is for discussions about the books of Richard Dawkins. The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, The Blind Watchmaker, River Out of Eden, Climbing Mount Improbable, Unweaving the Rainbow, A Devil's Chaplain, The Ancestor's Tale, The God Delusion, The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing, and The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution

The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:09 am

Do any of the books written by Richard Dawkins contain a general definition of science spelled out concisely?

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by c_mullark Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:11 am

The closest thing might be Unweaving the Rainbow. Though someone could very well come along and correct me.


x rayzed wrote:

Please tell me you're joking, because this is one of the most singularly stupid things I have read on this forum. And I've read threads with posts from Robert Byers in them.

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:17 am

c_mullark,

Is there a concise definition of science or scientific theory in paragraph form that you can quote or is Dawkins' definition defused throughout his book?

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Vorodin Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:52 am

Hello everybody.

I'm a new member and I recently uploaded a magnificent speech of mr. Dawkins in the University of Valencia (my city). In this video you can hear some definitions of science (by other scientists) and an own definition by Dawkins. It's a simple, clear, convincing and compelling definition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcxjU2Ws0a8

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:57 pm

"The particular variety of truth that concerns me is scientific truth. And that is what I mostly want to talk about today. So what is this thing called science? ... My own definition is the study of what is true about the real world." Richard Dawkins, University of Valencia, March 31, 2009.

That's very disappointing. Surely Dawkins has a definition better than that!

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by besleybean Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:58 pm

Wow, not even waiting to get one's feet under the table!
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by CJ Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:00 pm

Richard Dawkins is a scientist, he does not define what science is. Why are you interested in RD's definition?
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by CJ Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:01 pm

besleybean wrote:Wow, not even waiting to get one's feet under the table!


I suspect we both have feeling for where this is going
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:05 pm

CJ wrote:Richard Dawkins is a scientist, he does not define what science is.

I've heard that there is a certain pecking order established by science and that the poorer scientists are unable to define what should be defined. The physicist Ernst Rutherford said, "All science is either physics or stamp collecting." That attitude seems to support many jokes about scientists.

"Biologists think they are biochemists,
Biochemists think they are physical chemists,
Physical chemists think they are physicists,
Physicists think they are gods,
And God thinks he is a Mathematician."

CJ wrote:Why are you interested in RD's definition?

I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory. RD is considered an authority about general science.

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by UnderConstruction Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:20 pm

Inquisitive wrote:I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory. RD is considered an authority about general science.


To be honest, and I really am not seeking to be rude, if you are trying to use Dawkins as an authority figure, you are doing it wrong.

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by CJ Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:50 pm

While Wiki isn't definitive it's probably a better place to start than here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Or a dedicated science forum where you will find a more focused response http://www.scienceforums.net/

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Chris
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:16 pm

Am I to assume that all celebrity scientists, like Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Steven Hawking and Richard Dawkins, known for popularizing science, have never defined science?

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by UnderConstruction Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:31 pm

Inquisitive wrote:Am I to assume that all celebrity scientists, like Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Steven Hawking and Richard Dawkins, known for popularizing science, have never defined science?


Not sure. They probably have given their definitions at some point but where are you going with this, if I might ask?

If you are looking for a definition to hold up to non-scientists and say "here, this is what science is", what makes you think Dawkins' version will be any more accepted than any other scientist's if it differs from anyone elses? If it does not differ, there is little value in trying to get a personalised version from him.

I am trying not to be too cynical to the point that I assume you want to know his definition so you can try and refute it.

Also, are you looking for a definition of science or the scientific method (or both)?

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Goldenmane Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:33 pm

.
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:42 pm

UnderConstruction wrote:Also, are you looking for a definition of science or the scientific method (or both)?

As I have said, "I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory." I also asked for a concise definition of science or scientific theory in paragraph form and "a general definition of science spelled out concisely."
Last edited by Inquisitive on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by orpheus Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:48 pm

From what I can see, Wikipedia isn't too bad on this.



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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:15 pm

UnderConstruction wrote:I am trying not to be too cynical to the point that I assume you want to know his definition so you can try and refute it.

Unbelievable. I'm suspected for wanting to know what science is for sinister purposes.

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by UnderConstruction Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:19 pm

Inquisitive wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:I am trying not to be too cynical to the point that I assume you want to know his definition so you can try and refute it.

Unbelievable. I'm suspected for wanting to know what science is for sinister purposes.


Well if you just want to know what science is, there are plenty of more reliable sources out there than our speculation about Dawkins' concept of it.

It is your insistance on a personalised definition from Dawkins that got my cynical sense a tingling, not the fact that you want a defintion at all.

Perhaps you could humour me and ellaborate? Is there any particular target audience or is it purely for your own curiosity?

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by orpheus Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:22 pm

(Please don't take offense at my popcorn. I do that in lots of threads. Nothing personal.)
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by my_wan Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:49 pm

Inquisitive wrote:As I have said, "I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory." I also asked for a concise definition of science or scientific theory in paragraph form and "a general definition of science spelled out concisely."

The thing is if an "unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition" of science is provided, then it's not science. Science is not a dogma first and foremost.
Inquisitive wrote:Unbelievable. I'm suspected for wanting to know what science is for sinister purposes.

We'll, statements like this tend to send up alarm bells that you would understand if you hang around long enough:
Inquisitive wrote:I've heard that there is a certain pecking order established by science and that the poorer scientists are unable to define what should be defined. The physicist Ernst Rutherford said, "All science is either physics or stamp collecting." That attitude seems to support many jokes about scientists.



There are so many aspects to science that could be defined that I could fill this whole page on it. The notion that a single definitive definition exist is a straw man we often encounter when someone wants to try and defend a belief. A belief that lacks real evidence so they pretend it is equivalent to what science is as an argument.

Which aspect of science do you want defined?
The role of skepticism?
The role of empiricism?
The role of philosophy, as in Popper?
The role of theory and how it relates to empiricism?
The process, as in publishing and peer review?
The process, as in hypothesis distinct from theory?
Etc., etc., etc., etc.... Yes I really can go on.

So a question about a definitive definition of science is doesn't even define the question. Especially with a Rutherford quote that fails to appreciate what Rutherford meant. An opinion that Dawkins is an "authority", especially in general science. With so many choices as to what you may be asking, and this being an atheist forum, we have reasonable expectations that the past tends to bore out far more often than not. Only you can correct us, but getting upset that we have expectations based on previous experience will not get anywhere.
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by hackenslash Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:01 pm

Inquisitive wrote:I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory.


Well, if the Prof's personal Definition of 'the study of what is true about the real world' doesn't meet your criteria, what is your refutation of it? I like it. I think it's elegant and concise. What about it is non-rigorous?
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by natselrox Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:34 pm

Inquisitive wrote:Am I to assume that all celebrity scientists, like Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Steven Hawking and Richard Dawkins, known for popularizing science, have never defined science?

Is it necessary to define science?
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by Inquisitive Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:57 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Inquisitive wrote:I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory.

Well, if the Prof's personal Definition of 'the study of what is true about the real world' doesn't meet your criteria, what is your refutation of it? I like it. I think it's elegant and concise. What about it is non-rigorous?

If by elegant and concise you mean poetic and short, then I agree. But the study of science and calling that study "science" says absolutely nothing about what science is. What are the limits to finding what is true about the real world? What are the proper methods of investigation? I'm always studying science and I have definite opinions about it. When are my opinions a scientific theory?

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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by hackenslash Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:40 pm

Inquisitive wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
Inquisitive wrote:I'm looking for an unquestionably rigorous and irrefutable definition of science and scientific theory.

Well, if the Prof's personal Definition of 'the study of what is true about the real world' doesn't meet your criteria, what is your refutation of it? I like it. I think it's elegant and concise. What about it is non-rigorous?

If by elegant and concise you mean poetic and short, then I agree. But the study of science and calling that study "science" says absolutely nothing about what science is.


Hang on, he didn't say the study of science, he called it the study of what's true about the real world. The way you phrased it was tautological, while what the Prof said was not. There is a reason for this, of course. What you are calling science, or at least what's implicit in the way you phrase, is a subject to be studied. That is not what the Prof means by science. He is talking about science in a research sense, rather than a study of what we know (provisionally). So, you may be studying 'what science has taught us', while the professor is studying 'what's true about the real world' which, in a broad, vernacular sense, means 'extending what science has taught us. Do you see the distinction?

What it boils down to is that your formulation, while correct in the strictest sense, is not exactly what linguists and scholars would call rigorous, while the prof's definition is (which is why I like it, because I'm a big fan of rigorous definitions).

What are the limits to finding what is true about the real world?


Who says there are limits, apart from the obvious limit of 'all that there is to know'?

What are the proper methods of investigation?


1. Observe the evidence
2. Formulate hypothesis on the basis of that evidence
3. Make predictions concerning what you will find if your hypothesis is true, along with a null hypothesis, or a prediction concerning what you may find if your hypothesis is not correct.
4. Observe the evidence
5. Rinse. Repeat.

If at any time your hypothesis fails, either in a predictive sense, or in the sense that it fails to conform to the evidence, you must discard your hypothesis or modify it to account for particular circumstances, then go back to step 2.

I'm always studying science and I have definite opinions about it.


Excellent! What are your opinions? Feel free to share them in the science forum, where lots of knowledgable peeps can subject your ideas to the peer-review process, albeit in a limited sense.

When are my opinions a scientific theory


When they explain a class of observed data and have survived experimentation and peer-review, although when I say peer-review this time, I actually mean properly, as in submitting your ideas and your supporting evidence to a scientific journal, where they can be dissected by professional scientists whose expertise is the area you are studying.

You must understand, a theory is not a guess, or a hunch, or conjecture. In rigorous formulation, a theory is a framework within which to explain a class or group of experimentally verified facts.
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Re: The Richard Dawkins Definition of Science

by CJ Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:39 am

Inquisitive wrote:
UnderConstruction wrote:I am trying not to be too cynical to the point that I assume you want to know his definition so you can try and refute it.

Unbelievable. I'm suspected for wanting to know what science is for sinister purposes.


You are new here. You started out like hundreds (thousand+) of other n00bs who turned out to be hostile to science as a way of investigating and describing reality. If you had joined and spent a little time reading and getting a felling for the huge number of brain dead god botherers we get here I feel you may have phrased your enquiry better. It is an unfortunate fact that many, many people come here with an agenda to 'teach the controversy' as creationists put it. At the moment the jury is out on your intent.
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