"I oppose the practice of popery in the Seventh-day Adventist church."

Dear RonA,

For an understanding of popery in the Seventh-day Adventist church, see the following links:

Seventh-day Adventist Popery Part 2
Seventh-day Adventist Popery Part 3
Seventh-day Adventist Popery Part 4
Seventh-day Adventist Popery Part 5

For a recent sample of SDA popery and my opposition to it, see
Texas Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and Richardson Church versus Eugene Shubert

For my understanding on how this relates to the gospel, see
Gospel presentations for medieval Seventh-day Adventists

Bro Eugene-There are always Leaders with untamed egos. Bro Eugene I am an old man of sixty and I have seen preachers and leaders of every sort. Some worthy of their calling and some worthless as being of a humble spirit and a true blessing to the people. Perhaps the leaders you were exposed to were of such a lot, I don't know, but seek out a God fearing, Christ loving, humble man and stick with him like GLUE. I knew such a man. Mr Morrison was his name. He worked in the Adventist Center for the needy who would give out food and clothing to the poor. He was a deacon in our church as well. EVERYTIME he would visit with me, he would ALWAYS get ON HIS KNEES in prayer and pray an earnest prayer, before he went out the door. I admired this man of God so. Oh that I could have his spirit and his love for others. He has passed on now, but there went a true man of God. Seek out men and women such as these, and thank the Lord they are in your life. They will make a great example for you to emulate, in the things you lack. God Bless.

RonA

RonA wrote:Perhaps the leaders you were exposed to were of such a lot, I don't know

It’s wise to know the facts in a case before you accuse someone of slander. I am happy to direct you toward the path of Christian duty and obedience. If you have a true love for the Seventh-day Adventist church and believe in the manifesto of reform-minded Seventh-day Adventists—i.e., the line that says, “we will not with pen or voice cease to protest against bigotry”—then consider this first step:

This part of the verification process is easy:

Here is the Texas Conference website: http://www.texasadventist.org
Here is their posted information email address: info@txsda.org
I suggest that you send a simple email to the Texas Conference: info@txsda.org and to the Richardson SDA church: rsdac@sbcglobal.net

Subject: Accurate information request

Say something like:

Hi,

Can you comment on the accuracy of these statements about the Texas Conference?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/dupery

Is it true that the Texas Conference rubber-stamps requests for the arrest and prosecution of faithful Seventh-day Adventists who speak of the pantheism of A. Graham Maxwell?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/seve ... issers.htm

It’s amazing to me how many godless Seventh-day Adventists there are who refuse to inquire about the open sins practiced by their papal hierarchical leadership.

Here is the address and phone number of the

Richardson Seventh-day Adventist Church
1201 W. Belt Line Rd.
Richardson, TX 75080-5802
972-231-3254
972-231-3280 (fax)
email: rsdac@sbcglobal.net

Bro. Eugene-Do not let unpleasant people upset you. Seek the company of Christ loving and humble people. Think of what you can do for others personally. Sharing the message of Christ, helping the poor, visiting the sick and fellowshipping with other Christlike brothers and sisters. You cannot change men's thinking, nor some men's arrogance, but you can show everyone the love of Christ in you, by example. On the judgment day, it won't matter how much we know about doctrine, but what we did for Christ in relation to our fellow man.

again I hope this is not inappropriate:

Eugene
I know I am not as knowledgeable about this as you are. I have only been a member since 1987. However I am a pastor's wife, I wish to GENTLY tell you that ALL conferences are not like the one you describe. My husband has been a pastor since 2000 and during that time I have had a chance to associate with the conference president, his wife, the ministerial director, and his wife. I also am told some of the information about why certian things happen in a district (none of which I can tell here). I know that you would enjoy the people in the KN-NE conference. My husband has not gone to Seminary and has stated that he does not want to go. You would especially like our district here, my husband preaches out of the word of God and even makes his sermons suited to any potential non-SDA visitors (no distinct doctrines that they would not understand) and definately no strange non-adventist teaching...and "popery".

If you ever get a chance visit a church in our conference. Yes I know they aren't all perfect, we have had our problems, but I know of nothing like you speak (police actions etc) in our conference.

I feel sad for your situation.

Again, I pray that God will bless you this holiday season.
Mary

Dove,

Thanks for your very loving, Christian response. I wish there were more Adventists like you on this forum and around the world.

May the Lord bless you richly in all things.

Dove wrote:Eugene,

I wish to GENTLY tell you that ALL conferences are not like the one you describe.

Thank you Dove. I understand that. Seventh-day Adventism is just like first century Judaism. The Jews of some conferences hated Paul so much that they wanted to murder him while other Jews in other cities were eager to hear what he had to say.

Acts 17:1-12
When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ," he said. Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
But the Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd. But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here, and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus." When they heard this, the crowd and the city officials were thrown into turmoil. Then they made Jason and the others post bond and let them go.

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

The Seventh-day Adventist sanctioned practice (in some locations) of wanting certain people dead and arresting folks like Paul just for going to church (Acts 21:27-30), doesn't speak well in favor of the truth.

The following discussion started from a reference to a dream that is only weakly related to John's vision in Revelation 5 and was therefore moved here. — Moderator

This is an interlude which breaks with the natural sequence of this IJ thread.

I just have to comment something else on your dream here, or rather, on its reality background.

When I came across your forum for the second time, in autumn 2008, I read your story with the Richardson church & spiritual Co. It truly struck, shocked and hurt me, though at the same time it didn´t surprise me. The brother I had been working and studying with intensively for one year shortly after me being caught by the Gospel - the pastor who baptized me and a man to whom I developed a very deep spiritual and emotional tie – had gone through a similar desillusioning experience with the adventist church in Caracas, Venezuela. Though in contrast to your case things had not gone that far and he had not been brought before a civil trial, they had pushed him through an absurdly inhumane mobbing circus within the church and finally excommunicated him without fair procedure. Now he admits that he himself had been a little radical in his endeavor of waking up the church at that time, but still the attitude and actions of those adventist “brethren” had proven to be just beyond words. When I met him he was a man in his mid-thirties, but his hair was just plain grey as that of a man in his sixties. The whole brutal church affair had turned his hair that colour. I absolutely believe no one comes out of such a experience without deep marks.

This once extraordinarily faithful man later apostated from the adventist faith. I know that belief and unbelief is finally an issue between one´s heart and the Spirit of God, and I know there have been certain features in this brother´s personality which were dangerous to his soul and which he didn´t let go; but I can´t help it, I do consider the SDA church in Caracas, Venezuela, co-responsable for his apostasy. I also hold those adventists co-responsable who, although they would have the time and ressources, do not find it their spiritual duty to search the Scriptures in order to be able to give sure testimony of their faith and to be ready to answer legitimate doubts that arise even among the faithful. So much credibility has been lost because of pseudo watch dog SDAs who behave as the very phariseans of Jesus´ time.

What I want to say is, Eugene, that I am very glad that despite the injustice you suffered, you have not lost your faith in adventism nor your love for the adventist church, but give your best to wake this laodizean people up. This is a love much misunderstood, and some sadly ignorant christians have prematurely denounced it as “hate” and “spirit of revange” on this forum. Much on this world is totally upside down, really, and all too many christians don´t understand the Cross. From my part: Thank you, and God bless you abundantly on this ungrateful but truly christian mission you are on.

We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed.
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience,
in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults,
in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings;
by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit,
by sincere love, by the word of truth, by the power of God,
by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report;
as deceivers, and yet true;
as unknown, and yet well known;
as dying, and behold we live;
as chastened, and yet not killed;
as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing;
as poor, yet making many rich;
as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
(2. Corinthians 6:3-10)

anni wrote:This is an interlude which breaks with the natural sequence of this IJ thread.

You are very kind to say this.

I had another unpleasant dream last night, which revealed my bitter feelings for the Seventh-day Adventist church. I woke up and prayed to God that He would heal my spirit. In the dream I was in the parking lot of a generic Seventh-day Adventist church pleading with a former Adventist friend, pastor Larry Christoffel. I desperately wanted him to listen to my arguments, the reason for my hurt feelings and to explain what I should include in a letter to resign from the denomination. He didn't want to listen or help. I was shunned by him during the whole dream. He was doing his job inside the church building while I was outside wandering all around, waiting, knowing only that I didn't drive to church by myself and that Larry was to give me a ride home.

I wish my dreams wouldn't drag me down but instead would help me and inspire me to promote the kingdom of God.

I had another unpleasant dream last night, which revealed my bitter feelings for the Seventh-day Adventist church. I woke up and prayed to God that He would heal my spirit. (...) I wish my dreams wouldn't drag me down but instead would help me and inspire me to promote the kingdom of God.

Dear Eugene,

I believe man´s heart is hard to grasp and hard to gage; it is a wound with many latent currents. All we know is that Christ is our advocate, close to any broken heart. He will be cleaning us in the process until our hearts will be as white as snow, forever. Our bitter dreams are part of the application of the divine hyssop. Hyssop is in German also called, "Gottesgnadenkraut": "herb of God´s grace". "Poultices can be made from fresh hyssop to help heal wounds." (wikipedia)

There is a rather well-known poem by Dietrich Bonhoeffer with which I would like to respond to your last post, your last dream. I don´t know if you know it, but I am convinced you will appreciate it. Bonhoeffer wrote it while in the prison of Tegel, in july 1944, less than one year before his execution. He gave it the title, Who am I?

Who am I?

Who Am I?

They often tell me I would step from my cell's confinement calmly, cheerfully, firmly,
like a squire from his country-house.

Who am I?

They often tell me I would talk to my warden freely and friendly and clearly,
as though it were mine to command.

Who am I?

They also tell me I would bear the days of misfortune equably, smilingly, proudly,
like one accustomed to win.

Am I then really all that which other men tell of?
Or am I only what I know of myself:

restless and longing and sick, like a bird in a cage,
struggling for breath, as though hands were compressing my throat,
yearning for colors, for flowers, for the voices of birds,
thirsting for words of kindness, for neighborliness,
trembling with anger at despotisms and petty humiliation,
tossing in expectation of great events,
powerlessly trembling for friends at an infinite distance,
weary and empty at praying, at thinking, at making,
faint and ready to say farewell to it all.

Who am I? This or the other?
Am I one person today, and tomorrow another?
Am I both at once? A hypocrite before others, and before myself a contemptibly woebegone weakling?
Or is something within me still like a beaten army, fleeing in disorder from victory already achieved?

Who am I? They mock me, these lonely questions of mine.

Whoever I am:

Thou knowest, O God,
I am thine.

(Dietrich Bonhoeffer, july 1944)

Dear Anne,

I try to avoid thinking about my thirst as much as possible but I do appreciate your loving kindness.

The necessary condolences to me are those of understanding. And I know you understand.

I desperately wanted him to listen to my arguments, the reason for my hurt feelings and to explain what I should include in a letter to resign from the denomination. He didn't want to listen or help. I was shunned by him during the whole dream.

From all I have read about your church trial affair, it appears that his acting in your dream was representative for the whole story. What dismays me is that it seems you were never given the opportunity to really talk the whole situation with any of the persons directly or indirectly involved. Neither before, during, nor after the trial. Is it true not one of these christian fellows was willing to lend you an ear?

Light could illuminate unbelievable, incomprehensible darkness but evil was preferred

anni wrote: What dismays me is that it seems you were never given the opportunity to really talk the whole situation with any of the persons directly or indirectly involved. Neither before, during, nor after the trial. Is it true not one of these christian fellows was willing to lend you an ear?

After my arrest for defying church authority, I must have called virtually all the members of the church board but none of them wanted to talk to me. All of them gave me the same excuse. They couldn't discuss the matter with me because all the particulars were part of an ongoing lawsuit.

Actually, there was one board member that was very willing to talk with me about anything but this situation. Her name is Lilly Gonzales. Before there was any trouble, I had a few brief conversations with Lilly at church about differing Adventist views of theology but I felt that she was only interested in getting to know me for a personal relationship. I was confident that we had nothing in common. When I called her this time, she was still interested in me and invited me to her apartment but she said that she couldn't discuss my predicament. I accepted her invitation and visited her a few days later but she still had no interest in discussing what was obviously very painful to me. I was trying to be as friendly as possible but for the whole visit I only felt a keen disgust in my mind at the thought that if I was only a little bit flirtatious, I bet that she would welcome a passionate romance with me and that I could probably be having sex with her very soon and that she still wouldn't break her vow of silence. Such was her loyalty to the Reich Church.

What I imagine Lilly was thinking is just a guess but I do know that she voted against me so what could possibly be the reason that she invited me over? If Christ is rejected as the basis for a friendship, what else is there? Logically then, I believe it's quite obvious that Lilly was only interested in me for a meaningless friendship without Christ and most likely for a secret, sinful romance. I can't possibly believe that she could have been interested in marrying me if she thought I wasn't fit to attend church.

As a corroborating footnote of minor historical interest, I was allowed through a process called discovery in the civil court to subpoena the Richardson SDA Church Board Notes where my secret expulsion was formalized. It says there that they (the Elders) agreed that they were all at liberty "to visit Eugene for the purpose of ministering unto him." I'm confident that those words were Lilly's idea and that she wanted to make sure that she would be allowed to have a friendship with me outside of church.

anni wrote:From all I have read about your church trial affair, it appears that his acting in your dream was representative for the whole story.

I would have accepted the indifference of the Richardson church if the members revealed it openly. That would have been a great joy. It was the secrecy and duplicity that hurt me the most.

Last night I dreamed of being in another generic church. While walking in a hallway or walkway of that church I ran into Rev. Stephen W. Kieser, a Lutheran pastor. After a brief greeting he asked me, “What was the outcome of that problem you had at the Richardson church?” I answered saying that "the leaders there got an injunction against me to keep me from attending. The SDA church in Garland did the same thing."

Pastor Kieser didn't care about me thereafter so I started searching for any of my books that I might still have in the church or church school. After seeing some of my materials that I found in a church pew's book rack, it struck me that I was engaged in a very interesting Bible study in that church. Nevertheless, I knew that I wasn't welcome back.