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 Post subject: Anyone can teach me?
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:03 pm 
Seventh-day Adventist
Seventh-day Adventist

Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:45 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Seoul, Korea
I have been an adventist since I was born. My parents are adventist. However, I havent got the picture of why we claim that we receive the 'gift' of prophecies? I also do not know under what basis we believe that Ellen G. White is truly a prophet? Because when I read a little from the book she wrote I rather think that her writing (especially the one that explains the fall of Lucifer, Noah, and the Old Testament period) is like an imagination and how can we be sure that she's really telling the truth?

I quite understand why we worship on the Sabbath day, and I also understand why we have clean and unclean food. But I am just unsure with our interpretation of Daniel and Revelation. Honestly, I do not really know about the prophecies. Can someone please explain:
1. Why we believe that Ellen G. White is a prophet and that she's really telling the truth?
2. What is our church concept of Daniel and Revelation (the beast, 666, pope, 2300 days, evening-morning, 1844, 1260 years, etc)?
3. How do we proof that our concept in no.2 is true? What if other people ask us to verify our belief?

I am away from home. I dont have enough budget, so I cannot buy myself books regarding our doctrines and concepts, especially on the book of Daniel and Revelation. If anyone can give me links to readings that can help answer my curiosity, I will highly appreciate that. Or maybe send the readings through email.

Thank you for your kind attention


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 Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:53 am 
the new William Miller
the new William Miller

Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:35 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: Richardson Texas
Hi Argon,

Seventh-day Adventists are far from being united on their understanding of Daniel and Revelation. See these criticisms by Desmond Ford:

The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment.

To understand Ellen White and the correct view of Daniel and Revelation, see:

1. Ellen G. White - How to Test a Prophet
2. Studying and teaching the book of Revelation
3. The Ends of Time


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 Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:08 am 
Seventh-day Adventist
Seventh-day Adventist

Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:45 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Seoul, Korea
I dont understand what they are debating in the article "The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment.". Are they debating wheter 1844 is the exact year or what?

I think to begin with I better read 'The Ends of Time', which gonna take quite much time. After I finish reading I will post further questions. Thx though :)


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 Post subject:
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:15 pm 
the new William Miller
the new William Miller

Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:35 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: Richardson Texas
Argon wrote:
I dont understand what they are debating in the article "The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment.". Are they debating wheter 1844 is the exact year or what?

Hi Argon. Note the subtitle to that article: "Critique of the Third Quarter 2006 Adult Sabbath School Lesson." The text in bold at the top of the page says it all:

Quote:
The third quarter Sabbath School Quarterly, entitled The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment, was an unmitigated and tragic disaster. Despite the known fact that the majority of the denomination’s scholars surrendered the 1844 tradition decades ago and that it has long been impossible to find a top scholar prepared to teach it or write on it, the church still insisted on disinterring the dead.

In other words, Dr. Desmond Ford is saying that Ellen White was wrong in teaching that the origin of the Advent movement of 1844 is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy that connects Revelation 10 and Daniel 8:14 and that the great majority of Seventh-day Adventist scholars agree with him.

It would be helpful in your understanding of Dr. Ford's criticism to know that Dr. Desmond Ford is the father of a very influential faction in the Seventh-day Adventist church in North America and Australia. See the faction titled the Subversives in the article The Seven Faces of Seventh-day Adventism.

Argon wrote:
I think to begin with I better read 'The Ends of Time', which gonna take quite much time. After I finish reading I will post further questions. Thx though :)

I will be happy to answer all your questions. In your study of the issues, be sure to also read Conditionalism: A Cornerstone of Adventist Doctrine and The Literary and Prophetic Structure of Revelation 2 and 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone can teach me?
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:53 pm 
is under review
is under review

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:12 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Kansas City
Excellent questions Argon, I myself have struggled with these very same issues. I am a 5th generation SDA and didn't learn to study on my own until I was an adult.

As always, we start with the Bible. It is our source of truth and Bible will always interpret Bible.

argon_the_light wrote:
1. Why we believe that Ellen G. White is a prophet and that she's really telling the truth?


For starters....

#1) Prophecies must be fulfilled every time. Deut 18:22
EGW made lot's of predictions. Did they all come true? (Early Writings pp 64-67)(Spalding & Magan Collection, page 21 and 2 MR #153, page 300)

#2) Cannot have falsehood in visions. Jer. 23:32
EGW had more than 2000 visions, was there any falsehood in any of them? Compare Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 27 and Ephesians 6:12

#3) Cannot steal writing from others. Jer 23:25, 30
EGW wrote hundreds of inspired books. Did she ever plagiarize? Kind of a no-brainer. Dr. Don McAdams, an SDA scholar said in 1980 "If every paragraph in the book Great Controversy, written by Ellen White, was properly footnoted, then every paragraph would have to be footnoted."

#4) Cannot contradict the Word of God. Isa. 8:20
Did EGW ever do this? Compare Evanglism p. 598 with the account in I Tim. 2:14 Another good comparison of our prophetess with scripture is Christ Object Lessons p. 155 and I John 5:13

#5) Must bear good fruit. Mat 7:15-16
Did EGW bear good fruit? A read of any of the Testimonies should answer this one.

#6) New Testament Prophets edify and exhort. I Cor 14:3
Did EGW always build-up others with her prophecies? See Letter to D.M. Canright, 1880 and Present Truth, Aug. 1, 1849

#7) Prophets must acknowledge Paul's writings as commandments. I Cor 14:37 Compare I Cor. 11:5 and I Tim. 2:11,12 with what we know of EGW.
Did EGW obey Paul's writings?

_________________
"For I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more" Jeremiah 31:34


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 Post subject: Re: Anyone can teach me?
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:10 pm 
the new William Miller
the new William Miller

Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:35 pm
Posts: 1165
Location: Richardson Texas
Haldog wrote:
#1) Prophecies must be fulfilled every time. Deut 18:22

"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:22 (New International Version).

Do you then believe that Jonah wasn't a true prophet? His prediction about the city of Nineveh failed. How do you resolve the discrepancy?

Haldog wrote:
EGW made lot's of predictions. Did they all come true? (Early Writings pp 64-67)(Spalding & Magan Collection, page 21 and 2 MR #153, page 300)

Ellen G. White wrote:
In a view given June 27, 1850, my accompanying angel said, "Time is almost finished. Do you reflect the lovely image of Jesus as you should?" Then I was pointed to the earth and saw that there would have to be a getting ready among those who have of late embraced the third angel's message. Said the angel, "Get ready, get ready, get ready. Ye will have to die a greater death to the world than ye have ever yet died." I saw that there was a great work to do for them and but little time in which to do it.

Then I saw that the seven last plagues were soon to be poured out upon those who have no shelter; yet the world regarded them no more than they would so many drops of water that were about to fall. I was then made capable of enduring the awful sight of the seven last plagues, the wrath of God. I saw that His anger was dreadful and terrible, and if He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world would be as though they had never been, or would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues that would come upon them, and they would find no deliverance, but be destroyed by them. Terror seized me, and I fell upon my face before the angel and begged of him to cause the sight to be removed, to hide it from me, for it was too dreadful. Then I realized, as never before, the importance of searching the Word of God carefully, to know how to escape the plagues which that Word declares shall come on all the ungodly who shall worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in their foreheads or in their hands. -Early Writings pp 64-65.

How is this vision any different than the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament expectation that the end of the world was to be in the lifetime of the Apostles?

Haldog wrote:
#2) Cannot have falsehood in visions. Jer. 23:32
EGW had more than 2000 visions, was there any falsehood in any of them? Compare Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 27 and Ephesians 6:12

I can't even imagine what you think is false about Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 27.

Haldog wrote:
#3) Cannot steal writing from others. Jer 23:25, 30
EGW wrote hundreds of inspired books. Did she ever plagiarize? Kind of a no-brainer. Dr. Don McAdams, an SDA scholar said in 1980 "If every paragraph in the book Great Controversy, written by Ellen White, was properly footnoted, then every paragraph would have to be footnoted."

If you accept McAdams' standard of judgment, then you must believe that Jesus stole the golden rule (Matthew 7:12) without giving credit. See A Justification for Plagiarism as Practiced by the World's Greatest Literary Minds, Prophets, and the World's Redeemer.

Haldog wrote:
#4) Cannot contradict the Word of God. Isa. 8:20
Did EGW ever do this? Compare Evanglism p. 598 with the account in I Tim. 2:14 Another good comparison of our prophetess with scripture is Christ Object Lessons p. 155 and I John 5:13

You have already revealed that you are unfamiliar with Scripture. Shouldn't you judge yourself first before judging others?

Haldog wrote:
#5) Must bear good fruit. Mat 7:15-16
Did EGW bear good fruit? A read of any of the Testimonies should answer this one.

I have read a very large number of EGW testimonies and have no problem calling them the testimony of God's Spirit. Just because you can't see good fruit in A Testimony For Sleepy, Ease-Loving Sentinels, for example, it doesn't make your judgment correct.

Haldog wrote:
#6) New Testament Prophets edify and exhort. I Cor 14:3
Did EGW always build-up others with her prophecies? See Letter to D.M. Canright, 1880 and Present Truth, Aug. 1, 1849

Again you show your ignorance of Scripture. The Bible writers never spoke a single encouraging word to apostates. See 2 Timothy 2:17-18, 1 Timothy 1:20, Jude 1:11-13.

Haldog wrote:
#7) Prophets must acknowledge Paul's writings as commandments. I Cor 14:37 Compare I Cor. 11:5 and I Tim. 2:11,12 with what we know of EGW.
Did EGW obey Paul's writings?

Wouldn't your time be better spent if you took care of your own spiritual shortcomings and became mature in understanding Scripture instead of spreading so many baseless accusations? It should be obvious that Ellen White was a sincere Christian woman that received genuine revelations from the Lord.


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