The Confessing Seventh-day Adventist

Hi Steve

I have read this thread with great interest! Your story about your dream is certainly gripping reading and the comments from others are intriguing.

I do have a couple of question if you would be kind enough to respond:

1) I notice that Dedication's alternative interpretation of your dream was posted on 26 November 2004 and there has been no response to it that I can see. I'm just wondering what you thought of it.

2) I'm wondering why a God-given dream is not easier to interpret than it seems to be. Surely if your dream is so important to understand, God would explain its meaning to you as well? Why is it necessary to "guess" the interpretation of the dream by calling for ideas from others? Is this the normal way that God would reveal something to a person?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Thanks

Spozzie

Hi Spozzie,

I'm truly happy that you've read my tome-like posts! I hope that I can give reasonably short and well-reasoned answers to your questions.

Please feel free to make this a discussion, if you don't mind that my answers usually come as quickly as glaciers move.

spozzie wrote:I do have a couple of question if you would be kind enough to respond:

1) I notice that Dedication's alternative interpretation of your dream was posted on 26 November 2004 and there has been no response to it that I can see. I'm just wondering what you thought of it.

I'm happy to respond.

Initially, I think it would be a good idea to explain why I haven't responded to Dedication before I answer your direct question #1. (BTW I did PM her to let her know that I appreciated her input and would eventually respond.)

Since I've come across this web site and the materials that I've been studying and evaluating from the site--my life has gone in a direction that I could not have envisioned. I believe the dream has laid out a directive for my life at this time, and I'm treating that fact as priority #1 in the list of things that I must attend to each day.

You will recall that in the dream I am an investigative journalist or reporter. My mission in the dream was to show the 'protective suit' to the experts that I could find. The dream fits exactly what I was doing approximately 1-1/2 years to 2 years ago. God had, I believe, led me to Eugene's thesis of prophetic interpretation (the 'protective suit'). I studied it for many months (and continue to do so). If I'm a 'reporter' and I have a compelling 'story,' I need to have that 'story' read by others and critiqued. That is what I've been doing, as follows.

I have been studying, monthly, Eugene's "The Ends of Time"--the Daniel segment, at this time--with a group from my local SDA church. We have gone over every word in the document. The handpicked, highly diverse group contains elders, a pastor (who is a PhD), and several lay people from that particular church. This is my mandated 'group of experts' that I understood the dream to be stating. The response has been amazingly positive thus far, but it is incredibly time consuming for me. I spend many hours per week in preparation.

I also am teaching a once per week, verse-by-verse study of the book of Revelation with two friends (we started with Daniel). They are unchurched. We have compared a historicist-based study of Daniel (the 'standard' SDA interpretations)--because that is what we did for over a year in our studies--with Eugene's alternative paradigm. (BTW, the results are in Eugene's favor, with both groups.) This Revelation study is a tied-for-#1 priority, and to support the study I'm trying to put time into this thread, as well as much personal Bible study.

There are too many things to list that are important and take up all of my time, but I guess the direct answer is that I'm spread too thin, time-wise. Believe it or not, answering Dedication's interpretation is pretty high on my list of things to be done. Having said that, I'll bet I won't be able to get to it for 6 months--no joking. There are at least 3 other posts that I feel are high-priority to respond to also.

Another reason that I haven't responded yet, is that God reveals His will and truth progressively (I'll bet you agree with that statement). I want to make sure that I've had enough time to pray about, contemplate on, and ask God's will regarding what she had to say, as well as an appropriate response to her. I want to make sure that the response I give her is truth, as well as I can discern it to be.

A direct answer to your question #1:

A very short answer is this: I truly appreciate that she took the time to offer an alternate interpretation. Having said that, I believe her interpretations of the symbols don't fit the symbols given in the dream, or their context. I understand the context very well. I have prayed much for light in interpreting the dream. I believe I received it. I'll deal with each point of her interpretation in my response. (I hope I don't tax your patience too much...)

spozzie wrote:2) I'm wondering why a God-given dream is not easier to interpret than it seems to be. Surely if your dream is so important to understand, God would explain its meaning to you as well? Why is it necessary to "guess" the interpretation of the dream by calling for ideas from others? Is this the normal way that God would reveal something to a person?

This is very new ground for me, Spozzie. I'm just a regular guy. If you had a dream that you--in your deepest soul--KNEW was an important message/revelation from God, how would you respond to it (especially when it is confirmed by another person's dream, through the Lord)? I prayed and wrestled and prayed some more. I asked for the prayers of others. They prayed. When I asked for folks on this Forum to comment, it is because I knew that many folks on the site have read, or are familiar, with Eugene's prophetic thesis. I knew in my gut that the dream was in response to the struggles that I was having regarding SDA prophetic interpretation, so I wanted to see if anyone here could bring Wisdom to the table.

I also believe in the power of the Spirit within God's church--even one 'without walls.' This Forum tends to attract a fairly small number of people, but those that do stick around tend to be folks that gravitate to the 'deep things' of God. By that, I mean that they aren't afraid to get into the details of Scripture, etc. I believe there are folks here that are truly spiritual. That is an important resource.

You stated that you are wondering why a God-given dream isn't easier to interpret. I understand your sentiment completely! I guess that I'd have to wonder back: why does God ever use dreams and symbols in dreams at all? (I'm being 0% facetious here...) He could make things far easier by just appearing plainly and speaking plainly--IMHO. (We'd still find a way to get confused and mess it up, though...) But God has chosen to communicate to people throughout history through symbolic dreams. I believe in His purpose in this choice. To wit: I asked this Forum for the light that they had to offer; they responded. We are studying this dream with our monthly study group; they offered very significant input. (It took us over 4 hours to go over 1/2 of the dream!) I asked God for light; He directed me to many sources. I believe this is the way God's church should work, and I'll bet it's the way that the Apostolic church worked after Jesus ascended to heaven--that is, if the Spirit didn't respond tangibly in a particular instance. Each member of the Body has been given a spiritual gift, for the edification of it. In summary--I believe that God wants us to do everything in our power to understand His will for us. In my experience with this dream, I have struggled more with God than I ever have to seek His purpose in giving the dream. It has been an incredibly rich, powerful and meaningful spiritual experience.

A last point: by no means was I trying to "guess" the meaning of the dream by calling on Forum folks to add their input. My personal belief is that God gives dreams to those that either: a) have spiritual discernment to understand the dream (e.g. Daniel); b) have access to people with spiritual discernment (e.g. Nebuchadnezzar); c) have both a and b; or d) to provide a message to someone in the future who possesses a, b, or c. (There could be other scenarios, I suppose.) I believe in this case that I fall into category 'c'. In "uncle Bob's" dream, he didn't discern the meaning of the cylinder. In my dream, I understood instantly. When Forum folks added their input, I brought it repeatedly before the Lord, and I believe He gave me the discernment to know what was accurately noted and what was truly a guess on their part. A good example would be "Nomark's" (Restin's) recollection that the dream paralled the Great Controversy in one scene. I instantly knew that she had hit upon something significant to the interpretation. I had read the Great Controversy several times, but had completely forgotten that scene while pouring my effort into understanding the dream.

Do you see the difference?


An aside:

God has something in mind regarding Eugene's thesis of multiple prophetic scenarios. This is the sole subject of our handpicked monthly study group... Since the study has begun I have had several dreams directly related to the study itself and/or the study group. The night after Bob left for Missouri after our talk, he had another dream which he wrote up and sent to me. I will probably start a "Dream Repository" thread to add these additional dreams to, and for others to add theirs.

Another aside:

One of these days I'll update the dream interpretation to current understanding. I've spent time gathering supporting evidence for several items, etc.


Spozzie, I hope I've satisfied your questions a bit. If you still have questions or comments, please let me know. Thanks!

God bless, all--
Steve

Steve Starman wrote:Spozzie, I hope I've satisfied your questions a bit. If you still have questions or comments, please let me know. Thanks!

Hi Steve

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me -- I appreciate, from what you said, that you are a very busy person!! Your reply is fine -- I just wanted to hear your perspective on the questions and I think I have a better sense of where you are coming from.

Thanks!
Spozzie

Eugene Shubert wrote:

Steve Starman wrote:As it began, I was driving on a beautiful, winding country road. There were magnificent green trees all along the way, and shafts of sunlight were permeating the greenery at intervals. It was exceedingly peaceful. I came to a street or long driveway intersecting upon my right, and pulled the car off the road to take a look. The road led quite a way to a rather large building that had an ominous feel to it. ... There was just something about it that wasn’t quite right;... It seemed that there was an inordinate amount of security and secrecy there . I could never tell from my stops whether it was a government building or a research facility, but it certainly had that feel. My curiosity was natural; in the dream I was a newspaper reporter, perhaps an investigative journalist of some type. I pulled away, and continued to my home.

After I arrived home, I received an unexpected phone call from a ‘whistle-blower’ from the institution that I had paused to look at. The person told me that he would come to my house later that evening with “undeniable proof” of a concealed, dangerous corporate or governmental cover-up: my suspicions were confirmed. He appeared at the house with a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers, and left it with me. The understanding that I had from the stranger’s visit was that if experts examined the suit, all mysteries regarding the strange activities at the plant would be blown wide open.

I am confident that this refers to the governing body of the corporate SDA church. I know first hand that the Seventh-day Adventist church really is a manufacturing facility that manufactures dangerous doctrines, for which one needs a protective suit. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.

What should an Adventist whistleblower do? The strange activities that I seek to expose and wish were blown wide open, is the hierarchy's inordinate security and use of force to sustain their unchristian policy of complicity with A. Graham Maxwell, that he be permitted to seduce, in the church, innocent souls by the doctrines of demons, whereas any watchman/whistleblower who seeks to awaken a slumbering church to a straightforward, inspired interpretation of the prophesied omega of deadly heresies is to be slandered, fiercely persecuted and summarily cast out of the church, followed by lawsuits and cunning criminal prosecution, no questions asked. [1]

This conspiracy of silence goes back to the days of Neal Wilson, President of the General Conference. Pastor Larry Christoffel told me that Edward Heppenstall informed Neal Wilson about the dangerous heresies of Graham Maxwell and Wilson responded by saying that nothing should be done about it. Christoffel, who was a friend at the time, also told me to keep this a secret.

Also, Bill Shea admits there being a policy of silence in the hierarchy regarding Maxwell's theology. See http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhdayAdventists/Shea.htm

I confess that Steve Starman's dream is probably conditional and that the detail about the strange activities at the General Conference being blown wide open might not get fulfilled. It could be just an alternative scenario. If those whom God has especially called to investigate the protective body suit don't want to get their hair mussed, then I expect that Starman's view of what could be is just going to revert to an earlier prophecy.

"Here we see that the church—the Lord’s sanctuary—was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God’s power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus ‘Peace and safety’ is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God’s people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E.G.W., Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, p. 211.

All would agree that God knows the day and the hour... that John the Revelator was shown the day and the hour (heard it) but could not remembeer it and so also did Ellen White.

In the case of Ellen White she provides information telling us that it is announced after the close of probation - during the 7 last plagues - at the "Voice of God". She also informs us of the condition of the saints after that event. So lots of information added in her vision even though we still don't know the day or hour.

The dreams recorded above do tell us that same information - that God "knows the day and hour". But I am not clear at what point they show us something new or remind us of something key to our focus.

Ernie Knoll also heard the very day and hour as he too was taken to the future event where the voice of God is heard. But also does not remember the time -- only that he was very excited to hear it - as if this was "good news" for us today.

He also has a dream where a very elderly woman is told that she will remain and be alive at the appearing of Christ instead of dying before the 2nd coming.

I believe from some of the things that Ernie has said that God has started a final irrevokable sequence (like Nasa loading the Space Shuttle with fuel just before lift-off) - the green light has been given and the coming of Christ events are now initiated.

Imagine if you will that a child is informed that his astronaut father will be taking a trip to the moon "some day soon". But then the time comes when his father "leaves the house to take that trip". The child can not look into the sky and see the shuttle in the air 'just yet' but as his father drives out the driveway early in the morning - he knows that he has left -- he is now on his way to the moon though it be within a set predetermined launch sequence still unfolding.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan wrote:The dreams recorded above do tell us that same information - that God "knows the day and hour". But I am not clear at what point they show us something new or remind us of something key to our focus.

Bob, I agree with you that there is no new information contained in Steve Starman's dream. However, if the dream is genuine, then I do believe it's fair to interpret it primarily as a personal confirmation from God for my public ministry.

As I have stated on this thread:

1. "I am confident that this [dream] refers to the governing body of the corporate SDA church. I know first hand that the Seventh-day Adventist church really is a manufacturing facility that manufactures dangerous doctrines, for which one needs a protective suit."

2. I believe that the secrecy refers to "a policy of silence in the hierarchy regarding Maxwell's theology."

3. I also interpret the detail about Christ's Second Coming happening at 2 a.m. (Eastern Standard Time?) as a direct reference to my thesis about multiple scenarios. See my interpretation of Testimonies for the Church Volume 2, p. 192.

I don't believe that you have read this thread carefully.

As for your endorsement of the dreams of Ernie Knoll, the same question should be asked of you: What new information or key focus does Ernie Knoll present? But I'll ask that in the Ernie Knoll thread and thus not interrupt the discussion here.

Thanks.

Eugene - I agree that I have not read all this thread - I did read the dream through - but have not read all of the other posts carefully.

One of the things you mentioned was spiritualism taught or brought into the SDA church - do you have a link for that?

As for Maxwell - while I agree that he is in error - so also is Fritz Guy (architect of the 27 FB) in his more recent endorsement of evolutionism and actively gay church membership. So also is Steve Daily in error (author of Adventism for a New Generation) when he invited Rodney Howard-Browne's "Great Awakening" group to his church to teach them how to speak in tongues and laugh in the spirit and do the pentecostal brand of prophecy and healing etc. But those specific ministries don't agree "with each other" or with Maxwell on all of their heresies so I don't know how the SDA denomination could be intentionally going all of those conflicted directions at once - due to their negligence in getting rid of them all. It is certainly a case of terrible neglect of their responsibility at some level, and who knows how the administration lines up into camps behind one or the other of those abberant movements.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan wrote:One of the things you mentioned was spiritualism taught or brought into the SDA church - do you have a link for that?

I have several links to share on this topic but the best one is The Spiritualism of Adventism.

BobRyan wrote:As for Maxwell - while I agree that he is in error - so also is Fritz Guy (architect of the 27 FB) in his more recent endorsement of evolutionism and actively gay church membership. So also is Steve Daily in error (author of Adventism for a New Generation) when he invited Rodney Howard-Browne's "Great Awakening" group to his church to teach them how to speak in tongues and laugh in the spirit and do the pentecostal brand of prophecy and healing etc. But those specific ministries don't agree "with each other" or with Maxwell on all of their heresies so I don't know how the SDA denomination could be intentionally going all of those conflicted directions at once - due to their negligence in getting rid of them all. It is certainly a case of terrible neglect of their responsibility at some level, and who knows how the administration lines up into camps behind one or the other of those abberant movements.

It's hard for me to believe all that is going on because I haven't heard anyone talk about it. I assume though that it must be related to some sort of conspiracy of silence that must be going on at the General Conference. Note this particular detail in Steve Starman's dream:

a rather large building that had an ominous feel to it. ...There was just something about it that wasn’t quite right; ... It seemed that there was an inordinate amount of security and secrecy there.

The person told me that he would come to my house later that evening with “undeniable proof” of a concealed, dangerous corporate or governmental cover-up: my suspicions were confirmed. He appeared at the house with a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers, and left it with me. The understanding that I had from the stranger’s visit was that if experts examined the suit, all mysteries regarding the strange activities at the plant would be blown wide open.

What did you mean by this sentence:

BobRyan wrote:I don't know how the SDA denomination could be intentionally going all of those conflicted directions at once - due to their negligence in getting rid of them all.

Please explain. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Eugene Shubert wrote:It's hard for me to believe all that is going on because I haven't heard anyone talk about it. I assume though that it must be related to some sort of conspiracy of silence that must be going on at the General Conference. Note this particular detail in Steve Starman's dream:

It is all pretty much available online and in their own words.

Steve Daily discussing his own Pentecostalism and how after reporting it to the California Conference (eastern) he was asked to join the Exec Committee on Evangelism.

http://kingdomadventism.com/?p=65

1. May 17th, 2009 at 2:49 am Steve Daily
http://kingdomadventism.com/?p=65#comment-18

Hey Jennifer,
Thanks for posting my response to your email on the web site, as I requested, to update people about what happened back in Tampa. Now that I’ve made it through our weekend services, I want to provide a little more detail about the trip.
I was totally impressed with Rodney Howard-Browne and his church . He moves at a level of anointing that is truly mind-boggling. I had the privilege of sitting next to him at the minister’s luncheon, during the week, and was the recipient of a powerful prophetic word that he pronounced over me, Celebration Center, and the Adventist Church. I will try to recall it word for word as best I can.
“God is pleased with the heart and the interdenominational spirit of this servant. He has seen what you have suffered for His kingdom and is ready to pour out His blessings and favor on your ministry. The Lord is going to use this man to raise up an army in his church and in the Adventist denomination that will trumpet the true Gospel, release His Holy Spirit with fire, and that will produce a harvest of souls that will result from this revival for years to come. So be strong and courageous and persevere unto the end.”
That same evening Rodney had me give a testimony before his full house and TV cameras, of what God had done in our church and community through the great awakening tour. And he used the inclusion of Adventists in the revival, as a recurring theme of God’s inclusiveness, in his remarks that evening. Finally, when Rodney imparted and prayed over me in the meeting I felt a powerful move of God that allowed me to experience holy laughter to the greatest degree I have experienced to this point. Being of Northern European descent, I am not one who manifests easily (I tend to suffer from emotional constipation), but this move of God was powerful and i believe it will release me into a greater boldness in my street ministry. God bless, sd

As for the California Conference promoting this work of the "Great Awakening" tour being hosted by Steve Daily's Celebration Center - see this

In Steve Daily’s “No More Plastic Jesus” sermon – he makes this statement –
http://celebrationcenter.net/index.php? ... howMedia=a

1. I’ve gone to the conference about the
• Given them our Kingdom Adventism stuff
• Talked to them about the Great Awakening
• They have put me on the conf evangelism committee
( see the video at min:seconds 28:50 )

Feb 2009 Honors given to Fritz Guy by La Sierra
http://www.lasierra.edu/news/2009/feb/fritz_guy.html



Articles related to Fritz Guy
http://jewel.andrews.edu:82/search~S0?/ ... &1%2C72%2C

Architect of the 27 Fundamental Beliefs -

Uncovering the Origins of the
Statement of Twenty-seven Fundamental Beliefs
by Fritz Guy, Ph.D.
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/doctrines ... origin.htm


Perhaps as important as the revisions that were made were the revisions that were not made. These included a number of suggestions for greater specificity regarding the days of creation week, the beginning of the Sabbath, the place(s) of Christ’s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, ways of supporting the church financially, and proscribed behaviors such as card-playing, theatergoing, and dancing.34

One extraordinarily good thing occurred at the Dallas session, even as the committee of two thousand was designing its theological camel: the addition of the preamble, the most important sentences in the whole document. Unofficially known as "the Graybill preamble" because it was initially drafted and proposed by Ronald Graybill, it reads:35

The book Understanding Genesis: Contemporary Adventist Perspectives edited by Brian Bull, Fritz Guy and Ervin Taylor challenges the traditional beliefs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Adventism

Fritz Guy suggests that Adventist theology make room for pluralism regarding evolutionism as the preferred teaching.

From the “BEING ADVENTIST IN 21st CENTURY AUSTRALIA “

Envisioning an Effective Adventist Future:
What the Church Can Be in the Twenty-first Century
by Fritz Guy, Ph.D.
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/doctrines ... future.htm

• A subject that just won’t go away is the time and manner of creation—that is, the relation of the creative activity of God to natural history. At the International Faith and Science Conference at Ogden in August 2002, the fundamental issue was the extent to which modern science influences our interpretation of the early chapters of Genesis. It is important to note that the issue was "the extent to which," not "whether," science influences our interpretation. …

But there was considerable disagreement was about the age of life on planet Earth. Some argued that the evidence for a very long history of life is persuasive, and that Genesis 1 should be understood as a theological affirmation of God as the source of everything that is. Others insisted that the available evidence is not sufficient to invalidate the traditional understanding of Genesis 1 as a factual description of the actual process of creation. The general discussions were courteous and respectful, but the differences were deep and sometimes passionately expressed. A possible outcome of our continuing conversations might be a recognition and acceptance of a diversity of views on this subject.
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/doctrines ... future.htm

Fritz Guy’s evolutionist manifesto for his Adventist disciples to follow.

Realities for Adventist Theology in the 21st Century1
Fritz Guy

“While it is true that scientific knowledge is “always revisable” and “will almost certainly need to be revised in the light of further research,” the fact remains that scientific knowledge is “the best information we have” about the physical world. As a consequence, “religious beliefs cannot remain what they were before the rise of modern science.” - Realities for Adventist Theology in the 21st Century. page 6

page 8
At the present time there seems to be no good reason to doubt the gradual development and increasing complexity of life over an extended period of time. The fact that this recognition complicates our theology hardly justifies discounting the overwhelming empirical evidence. In 1844 our Adventist forbears recognized the empirical evidence that their theology was mistaken, and they revised it accordingly. So our intellectual efforts in the 21st century ought to be directed not to attacking various details of the prevailing developmental model, much less to denying it outright, but either (a) to developing a comprehensive alternative model, which no one has done
or is likely to do, or (b) to incorporating into Adventist thinking the idea of a gradually increasing complexity of living organisms over a long period of time36 as an alternative to the traditional paradigm of a six-day creation less than ten thousand years ago.37
<page 9>
We need to move beyond a jig-saw-puzzle model of theology, which involves the idea of
an interlocking set of convictions such that significantly changing one part destroys the whole. If that were the case, the whole would be completely dependent on each of its parts; and the credibility of Adventism as a whole would be hostage to a short history of life on planet Earth.

A much more adequate model is that of an organism, which recognizes that while a
change in one part does affect others, they are able to adjust to the change in various ways. And, as noted above, Adventism’s own history demonstrates that it has experienced—and survived— many theological changes, in spite of dire predictions that the existence of Adventism was at stake.38 (ibid. page 8-9)

Fritz Guy’s pro-evolutionism book is reviewed by Creationist and Intelligent Design promoter – Sean Pitman.

Book Review
Understanding Genesis: Contemporary Adventist Perspectives
Edited by Brian Bull, Fritz Guy & Ervin Taylor
Published by Adventist Today, Adventist Today Foundation, © 2006
ISBN 0-9786141-1-9
http://www.atoday.org

Sean D. Pitman
January 1, 2007
http://www.DetectingDesign.com


http://www.detectingdesign.com/PDF%20Fi ... Review.doc

While the church slept - the enemy has stolen a march.

1994 survey of SDA science teachers at the collegiate/university level showed that the clear majority did not accept creation of life on earth in 7 day literal week less than 10,000 years ago.

BNET reports SDA 1994 survey result
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n11491046/
Yet at Adventist colleges, according to a 1994 survey of 121 science teachers, only 43 percent agreed with the church's view that "God created live organisms during six days less than 10,000 years ago."

British Centre for Science and Education
http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Mai ... yAdventist
Yet at Adventist colleges, according to a 1994 survey of 121 science teachers, only 43 percent agreed with the church's view that "God created live organisms during six days less than 10,000 years ago."


2002, and 2004 conferences (attended by Fritz Guy among others) did not resolve that issue except to insist that the SDA institutions would continue promoting Literal Creation (And we all see how well that -"science teacher teaches evolutionism while administrator promotes creation in lip-service" -- has worked at La Sierra).

La Sierra boos Intelligent Design article in AToday
http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-cr ... university

Retired Pastor

“In forty years in the Christian ministry I have never preached a sermon on Creation/evolution. I believe there are more important subjects for sermons. Often in discussion groups or personal encounters I have not sidestepped the issue. And when I have taken a stand, it has been on the side of Creation. But I have a "quarrel" with the creationist. He bases his argument on the first chapter of Genesis. All that is—or ever will be—was created in six days. Period! Neither you nor I were present during those six days. Nor was anyone else. Why, then, can we not give God the glory that He created all things—visible and invisible—without asking how He did it or how long it took? If He is the Creator, what difference does it make whether He took six days or a thousand years? With Him, "one day is ... as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Does it really matter?—Retired pastor, Walla Walla,Washington.” Ministry, September 1984, Letters, p.2
Source: http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive ... 984-09.pdf

in Christ,

Bob

Eugene Shubert wrote:
What did you mean by this sentence:

BobRyan wrote:I don't know how the SDA denomination could be intentionally going all of those conflicted directions at once - just due to their negligence in getting rid of them all.

Please explain. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I mean that there is so much error getting pumped into the SDA system from all sectors that I don't think the administration is necessarily orchestrating it all. It could be that they are simply being overwhelmed and the usual big-organization "analysis paralysis" is inneffective at best.

They seem to have an out of control situation and they are simply stamping out the little fires whenever possible while the larger ones just burn.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

You quoted page 8 of Fritz Guy’s evolutionist manifesto, which says in part:

So our intellectual efforts in the 21st century ought to be directed not to attacking various details of the prevailing developmental model, much less to denying it outright, but either (a) to developing a comprehensive alternative model, which no one has done or is likely to do, or (b) to incorporating into Adventist thinking the idea of a gradually increasing complexity of living organisms over a long period of time36 as an alternative to the traditional paradigm of a six-day creation less than ten thousand years ago.37

I too am particularly insulted by what you highlighted with a bold emphasis: "which no one has done or is likely to do." I feel that I have developed a comprehensive alternative model, or, at least, an excellent beginning of one. I begin by defining science according to David Hilbert's philosophy of physics.

There is an excellent summary for all the points you have made:

"In vision I saw two armies in terrible conflict. One army was led by banners bearing the world's insignia; the other was led by the bloodstained banner of Prince Immanuel. Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God." {8T 41.1}

You end with this challenge:

BobRyan wrote:There is so much error getting pumped into the SDA system from all sectors that I don't think the administration is necessarily orchestrating it all.

I never meant to imply that the Adventist hierarchy is in charge to the point that they truly know what they're doing. Please see my thread Extreme Shepherding in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and kindly consider the meaning I've given to the youtube video displayed there.

Sister White has specified one sense in which the apostasy of Adventism is taking place. She put it in military terms. The Adventist leadership and the corrupt laity are striving to bring worldly standards into the church with militaristic determination. I also believe that the paradigm introduced in Steve Starman's dream is correct. The hierarchy is purposely keeping it a secret that the Adventist ship is sinking because, in their mind, they don't want to alarm any passengers. For proof that this comparison is reasonable, please consider Sister White's description of the Pacifists in The Seven Faces of Seventh-day Adventism. Also consider the meaning of recent history. I believe that Enron, AIG and Goldman Sachs serve as perfect models for the Adventist Corporation. They illustrate the truth of how the titans of industry, in their pursuit of worldly ambitions, can be more interested in their own golden parachutes than in disseminating accurate information to their shareholders. There were multiple cover ups and scandals just as there is a conspiracy of silence in the Seventh-day Adventist church and an inevitable shaking forthcoming.

The brief mention of "a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers," is a clear reference to something that protects and implies serious harm without it. The most dangerous threat to life and faith in the Seventh-day Adventist church is the unrelenting undermining of the gospel and the widely taught pan-Gnostic spiritualism of the Adventist Antichrist.

Eugene Shubert wrote:

BobRyan wrote:There is so much error getting pumped into the SDA system from all sectors that I don't think the administration is necessarily orchestrating it all.

I never meant to imply that the Adventist hierarchy is in charge to the point that they truly know what they're doing. Please see my thread Extreme Shepherding in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and kindly consider the meaning I've given to the youtube video displayed there.

Couldn't stop laughing while watching the video... so sorry about that.


Will get back to you on that point when can stand on two feet again.