Ellen White wrote, "the message to the Church of the Laodiceans is a startling denunciation" (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, p. 252).

Indeed it is.

What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct. (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, pp. 252-253).

Curiously, Ellen White thought that a solemn message might stir up the Church to see their deplorable condition:

"The remnant church is called to go through an experience similar to that of the Jews; and the True Witness, who walks up and down in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, has a solemn message to bear to His people." Selected Messages Book 1, p. 387.

"My brethren and sisters, humble your hearts before the Lord. Seek him earnestly. I have an intense desire to see you walking in the light as Christ is in the light. I pray most earnestly for you. But I can not fail to see that the light which God has given me is not favorable to our ministers or our churches. You have left your first love. Self-righteousness is not the wedding-garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people." Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 15, 1904.

The Message
According to Ellen G. White, Seventh-day Adventists resemble the Jews of the first century in terms of mindset and experience.

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people." The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.

"We want to understand the time in which we live. We do not half understand it. We do not half take it in. My heart trembles in me when I think of what a foe we have to meet, and how poorly we are prepared to meet him. The trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ, have been presented before me again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God in their experience before the second coming of Christ—how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God's servants, that they may not be able to discern the precious truth." Selected Messages Book 1, p. 406.

"One matter burdens my soul; the great lack of the love of God, which has been lost through continued resistance of light and truth, and the influence of those who have been engaged in active labor, who in the face of evidence piled upon evidence, have exerted an influence to counteract the message God has sent. I point them to the Jewish nation and ask, Must we leave our brethren to pass over the same path of blind resistance, till the very end of probation? If ever a people needed true and faithful watchmen, who will not hold their peace, who will cry day and night, sounding the warning God has given, it is the Seventh-day Adventists. Those who have had great light, blessed opportunities, who like Capernaum have been exalted to heaven in point of privileges, shall they, by nonimprovement, be left to darkness corresponding to the greatness of the light given?" The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, p. 349.

"It is a grievous sin in the sight of God for men to place themselves between the people and the message that He would have come to them as some of our brethren are now doing. There are some who, like the Jews, are doing their utmost to make the message of God of none effect. Let these doubting, questioning ones either receive the light of the truth for this time, or let them stand out of the way, that others may have an opportunity of receiving the truth, that the wrath of God may not come on them because they are bodies of darkness, when He desires them to be bodies of light.

"Those who live just prior to the second appearing of Christ may expect a large measure of His Holy Spirit. If God has ever spoken by me, some of our leading men are going over the same ground of refusing the message of mercy as the Jews did in the time of Christ. If they turn away from the light, they will fail to meet the high and holy claims of God for this important time. They will fail to fulfill the sacred responsibility that He has entrusted to them.

"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them. . . .

"The Jews despised the good that was proffered them in the time of Christ, and after the long forbearance of God, the things that were for their peace were hidden from their eyes—that which, if received, would have been to them their greatest blessing became their stumbling block. Thus it is today among us. . . .

"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose. Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness. They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose. But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it. They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness. They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe." Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven, pp. 286-287.

For a longer list of similar statements, see Instances in the writings of Ellen G. White where Ellen White implores Seventh-day Adventists to not be just like the Jews at the time of Christ but that they are anyway.

For a closer look into this perfect illustration of Seventh-day Adventists from the first century Jewish perspective, see The Seventh-day Adventist Experience.

Question 1
What would it take to prove that the condition and position of Seventh-day Adventists represented by The Seventh-day Adventist Experience is accurate and true?

Here is an interesting Spirit of prophecy statement that tells me that Jesus isn't appreciated, welcome or even liked in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Ellen G. White wrote:How did men treat Christ when He came? . . . "He came unto his own, and his own received him not" (John 1:11). Thus it is today. This history is being repeated, and will be repeated again and again before the Lord shall come in the clouds of heaven. — TMK 54.

Note how perfectly Sister White's statement agrees with Christ's standard for passing the Investigative Judgment, which is solely a test on how we treat His unappreciated representatives.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

How is Christ Treated in the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

If someone takes every error ever listed by Ellen White or ever found in any church member and tries paint the entire church with it - I suppose then we can say "the Seventh-day Adventist church engages in spouse abuse and kicking the dog".

Hint: That kind of accusation discredits the whole diatribe.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

I agree that Sister White's many wonderful testimonies to specific individuals in the Seventh-day Adventist Church says nothing about the systemic health of the Church. However, Sister White did claim that God "again and again" made the comparison to her that "the trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ … illustrate the position of the people of God in their experience before the Second Coming of Christ." I believe that justifies my commentary, How is Christ Treated in the Seventh-day Adventist Church?

BobRyan wrote:If someone takes every error ever listed by Ellen White or ever found in any church member and tries paint the entire church with it - I suppose then we can say "the Seventh-day Adventist church engages in spouse abuse and kicking the dog".

Please forgive my training as a professional mathematician. The language that I'm most familiar with purposely ignores obvious exceptions of measure zero. Yes, there are true Christ-followers in Adventism, as mentioned in the Spirit of prophecy compilation The Seven Faces of Seventh-day Adventism, but they have no discernable influence in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Your claim to the status of all-knowing all-seeing "eye" is noted.

However there are a number of us who still have God sitting in that chair. Only He knows the true believers in any/every denomination and how many there are -

;)

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan wrote:Your claim to the status of all-knowing all-seeing "eye" is noted.

You surprise me Bob. You have affirmed in the Ernie Knoll thread your belief that Ernie Knoll is some sort of endtime prophet and he said that "not one in 1000" Seventh-day Adventists are saved yet you insinuate that I have said something unbelievable and unknowable.

I agree with you that there are a lot of problems with many church members and I agree with you that Ellen White pointed to those problems. The work of apostates like Graham Maxwell, Steve Daily and Fritz Guy are all designed to tear down and destroy the Adventist church.

But you keep casting this in a "Seventh-day Adventist church is evil" framework. I suppose we agree that God is the one that raised up the SDA denomination and gave it the doctrines that it has. He is the one that is on the hook for taking the church through to the end even if it is only 1 in 20 or 1 in 1000 that are going to survive the shaking before "tribe after tribe" from the other Christian churches and non-Christian world come in to join the ranks.

I intend to be one of those Seventh-day Adventists that are not shaken out. One that calls erring church members to repentance and reform. But I would prefer to do it without a general attack on the entire denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan wrote:I agree with you that there are a lot of problems with many church members and I agree with you that Ellen White pointed to those problems. … But you keep casting this in a "Seventh-day Adventist church is evil" framework.

I have no control over God's message. I have only restated His message in logically equivalent forms.

The remnant church is called to go through an experience similar to that of the Jews; and the True Witness, who walks up and down in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, has a solemn message to bear to His people. — Ellen G. White, Selected Messages Book 1, p. 387.

If you wish to represent the Jewish leadership in the First Century as a bunch of sweethearts, and by implication the Seventh-day Adventist hierarchy also, then that would be consistent with the basic parallels that I believe are important. However, as a minor aside, there are reasons to accept all Spirit of prophecy descriptions of the spiritual state of the Jewish Church in the First Century as inviolable.

BobRyan wrote:I intend to be one of those Seventh-day Adventists that … calls erring church members to repentance and reform. But I would prefer to do it without a general attack on the entire denomination.

The Spirit of prophecy also states:

"The testimony of the True Witness is not a smooth message. The Lord does not say to them, You are about right; you have borne chastisement and reproof that you never deserved; you have been unnecessarily discouraged by severity; you are not guilty of the wrongs and sins for which you have been reproved." 3T 257.

"The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people." RH, Dec. 15, 1904.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that what God has said on the condition of the Laodiceans is a hindrance to the message of the True Witness.

BobRyan wrote:The work of apostates like Graham Maxwell, Steve Daily and Fritz Guy are all designed to tear down and destroy the Adventist church.

And how many Adventist supporters do they have? I answer in terms of God's sanctioned parallels. To the exact same degree that the Jewish Church rejected Christ, the Seventh-day Adventist Church embraces Antichrist.

BobRyan wrote:But you keep casting this in a "Seventh-day Adventist church is evil" framework. I suppose we agree that God is the one that raised up the SDA denomination and gave it the doctrines that it has. He is the one that is on the hook for taking the church through to the end ...

I intend to be one of those Seventh-day Adventists that are not shaken out. One that calls erring church members to repentance and reform. But I would prefer to do it without a general attack on the entire denomination.

I now see and suspect that your faith in "the holy order" is stronger than your willingness to believe Christ's undeniable appraisal of the Seventh-day Adventist church.