The Lord knows that I'm terribly excessively critical of many things that pass as profound knowledge within Seventh-day Adventist circles. In spite of my heightened sensitivities and reverential fear of the Lord, my highest sense of duty to God (and loyalty to a dear friend) tells me that I have to be as blunt as possible in my criticisms of the theology taught by Restitution Ministries, a fellowship headed by two men that were disfellowshipped in Australia for refusing to accept the Trinity doctrine as stated in the official 28 fundamental beliefs, which is required for membership in the Seventh-day Adventist church. Therefore, I shall not soften or conceal my honest opinions.

Here is my chief complaint. Restitution Ministries teach that the Holy Spirit is not a third divine being in a Heavenly Trio. Also, they seem unaware of the senselessness of their words and promote audacious arguments in a 16 page document titled Who is the third person of the Godhead?

Doubtless, the answer to their opening question is obvious but it serves to disguise the real content of their 16 pages. If a descriptive title was to be selected that honestly reflects the core foolishness of Restitution Ministries' theology in that document, it would be The Birth and Death of the third person of the Godhead!

As I have already asserted, there is absolutely no controversy to the correct answer for the question, Who is the third person of the Godhead? For those who might have a slight bit of doubt about the correct answer, here is an authoritative statement from the Spirit of prophecy that is remarkably clear on what the answer must be:

Christ determined to bestow a gift on those who had been with Him and on those who should believe on Him, because this was the occasion of His ascension and inauguration, a jubilee in heaven. What gift could Christ bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. Christ gave His representative, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. This Gift could not be excelled. . . . {CTr 301.4}

Even Restitution Ministries acknowledges this truth in the beginning of their article:

Restitution Ministries wrote:There is no need for any guess work, the prophet tells us who the third person of the Godhead is. It is Christ's Spirit, 'His Spirit'. (Who is the third person of the Godhead?, p. 3).

However, the article by Restitution Ministries quickly departs from what they have just affirmed:

Restitution Ministries wrote:Obviously sister White could not mean the Spirit is a third individual member in a trinity or Godhead, and at the same time frequently write that the Spirit is Christ Himself, His life, etc. The two views are diametrically opposed to each other. Ibid, p. 7.

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9). Clearly, Jesus is to be regarded as an unimaginably perfect representative of the Father. So why can't you accept the Holy Spirit as a sufficiently perfect representative of God and Christ? Note that the Spirit of prophecy doesn't distinguish between the third person of the Godhead and "the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power."

Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation. . . . It came with a fullness and power, as if for ages it had been restrained, but was now being poured forth upon the church. . . . {ML 36.3}

In other words, the Holy Spirit is "the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power" and also the third person of the Godhead.

Restitution Ministries wrote:As we noted earlier, the context tells us that the "third person of the Godhead" is the Spirit of Christ -- "Christ has given His Spirit."

It is true that the term "third person" seems to indicate someone else apart from the Father and Son, but this would contradict the previous statement, and an abundance of others. Nonetheless, the Spirit is in some way "a distinct personality". This is what I believe the prophet means by the term "third person". Ibid, p. 8.

This statement by Restitution Ministries clearly reveals their unbelief in the axiom that the third person of the Godhead is the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, 3:13-17, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2 and Revelation 1:4-5). It is also to be noted that Restitution Ministries only begrudgingly acknowledges that the Spirit of God is "a distinct personality".

Restitution Ministries wrote:This third person is mysteriously absent from heaven before sin and in the new earth after the end of sin! Ibid, p. 9.

If you study every time Ellen White used the term "third person", "three divine agencies", "three divine powers", etc, you will see a consistent pattern. She never used these statements before or after sin. Ibid, p. 10.

Restitution Ministries here asserts their belief that the third person of the Godhead didn't exist before sin entered the world and will not exist after sin is eradicated. So, if we take Restitution Ministries' writings to their logical conclusion, all based on their doctrine of a temporary metaphor, then what they are really teaching is the birth and death of the third person of the Godhead!

Restitution Ministries wrote:You see, if we interpret this term to mean a third co-equal, co-eternal divine being of the Godhead, as many do, it would be reasonable to expect it (and similar terms, such as "heavenly trio") to be found in other areas, such as in heaven before sin, in the heavenly councils, in the new earth, etc. but in all these important subjects regarding the Father and Son in heaven before sin, or in the new earth after sin, the term "third person", "heavenly trio", "three divine powers", etc. are never used! ibid, p. 8.

Here again you are reaffirming your belief in the birth and death of the third person of the Godhead!

Restitution Ministries wrote:The Testimonies only speak of two Beings – the Father and the Son. So also does the Bible. In fact, regarding the heavenly counsels, the prophet states, "Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father - one in nature, in character, and in purpose - the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God." GC 493.1. ibid, p. 9.

The declaration that "The Testimonies only speak of two Beings – the Father and the Son" is a boldfaced lie. The Testimonies contain many references to a very important third Person.

The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds. -- Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {2SAT 136.6}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . . {Ev 616.6}

The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

Restitution Ministries wrote:Friends, the reason the`third person` (as a third God-Being called the Holy Spirit), is missing is because he doesn't exist! Ibid, p. 10.

That's quite an audacious denial of the Spirit of prophecy quotations listed above.

Restitution Ministries wrote:Clearly there was no third God-being in heaven, and that is why the prophet never mentions one. But the Spirit was certainly there -- it was the Spirit of God, the Spirit of His Son. Ibid, p. 10.

No, what is exceptionally clear is that you reject unmistakably unambiguous revelation that the third person of the Godhead is the Holy Spirit.

Restitution Ministries wrote:And again, "The only being who was one with God." ST, October 14, 1897 par. 3. If she believed the Holy Spirit was a third co-equal and co-eternal member of the Godhead, how could she say of the Son "the only being who was one with God"? Ibid, p. 9.

The Holy Spirit is not co-equal with the Father and the Son. "I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son." {EW 54.2} The Holy Spirit is represented as merely "the seven Spirits who are before His throne" (Revelation 1:4).

Restitution Ministries wrote:And why did she write that before the rebellion, Lucifer was next in honor to God's dear Son? 4BC 1163, FLB 67. Ibid, p. 9.

By all appearances, Lucifer was next in honor to God's dear Son. And it's not unusual for authors to stick with reporting visualizable--or at least describable--persons, objects and actions in historical narratives and to not mention invisible participants that play no discernible role. And we do know that the Holy Spirit doesn't seek to exalt Himself and be prominent.

Restitution Ministries wrote:Dear Friends, can you see that before sin there is the Father and His Son; and after sin is destroyed there is the Father and His Son -- only two divine Beings? Ibid, p. 13.

That's correct. You reject Sister White identifying the Holy Spirit with the third person of the Godhead. Thus it may be inferred that the Holy Spirit didn't exist before sin developed and will cease to exist after sin is exterminated. But continually reaffirming your faith in the birth and death of the third person of the Godhead doesn't make it true.

Restitution Ministries wrote:This is the third person of the Godhead, the divine-human nature of Christ. It is a distinct personality, a life that was unknown in heaven and earth until it was lived, perfected and glorified. Ibid, p. 12.

Your alternative, personal, uninspired definition of the third person of the Godhead coupled with your belief in its beginning and end plainly contradicts the Spirit of prophecy:

In taking our nature, the Saviour has bound Himself to humanity by a tie that is never to be broken. Through the eternal ages He is linked with us. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only-begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder." God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. {7ABC 456.4}

My answer is to be taken in the context of rank within the Godhead.

Romans 8 (King James Version)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8 (New King James Version)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8 (New International Version)

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Romans 8 (New American Standard Bible)

26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

The deity of Christ reveals the nature of the Godhead

Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was One with the eternal Father,—one in nature, in character, in purpose,—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). His “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). —Patriarchs and Prophets, 34.

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said,“I and My Father are One.” The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as He put forth the claim that He and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. —The Signs of the Times, November 27, 1893, p. 54.

Yet the Son of God was the acknowledged Sovereign of heaven, one in power and authority with the Father. —The Great Controversy, 495.

To save the transgressor of God’s law, Christ, the One equal with the Father, came to live heaven before men, that they might learn to know what it is to have heaven in the heart. He illustrated what man must be to be worthy of the precious boon of the life that measures with the life of God. —Fundamentals of Christian Education, 179.

The only way in which the fallen race could be restored was through the gift of His Son, equal with himself, possessing the attributes of God. Though so highly exalted, Christ consented to assume human nature, that He might work in behalf of man and reconcile to God His disloyal subject. When man rebelled, Christ pleaded His merits in his behalf, and became man’s substitute and surety. He undertook to combat the powers of darkness in man’s behalf, and He prevailed, conquering the enemy of our souls, and presenting to man the cup of salvation. —The Review and Herald, November 8, 1892, p. 690.

The world was made by Him,“and without Him was not anything made that was made.” If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore....
There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, original glory. This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible. —The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906, p. 8.

The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son, and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. —Patriarchs and Prophets, 36.

However much a shepherd may love His sheep, He loves His sons and daughters more. Jesus is not only our shepherd; He is our “everlasting Father.” And He says, “I know Mine own, and Mine own know Me, even as the Father knoweth Me, and I know the Father.” John 10:14, 15, R.V. What a statement is this!—the only-begotten Son, He who is in the bosom of the Father, He whom God has declared to be “the Man that is My fellow” (Zechariah 13:7),—the communion between Him and the eternal God is taken to represent the communion between Christ and His children on the earth! —The Desire of Ages, 483.

Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. “He that hath the Son hath life.” 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer’s assurance of eternal life. —The Desire of Ages, 530.

There are three Somethings in the Godhead

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. -- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {7ABC 441.9}

Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly king. -- Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 91. {7ABC 442.6}

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. -- Counsels on Health, {7ABC 442.1}

Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfillment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf. Doing this you will reveal to the world the principles of righteousness. -- The Signs of the Times, June 19, 1901. {7ABC 442.3}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." -- Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

We are to "hold fast" and live up to all the light we receive from heaven. Why? Because God wants us to grasp the eternal truth, and act as His helping hand by communicating the light to those who are not acquainted with His love for them. When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--the three great personal Dignitaries of heaven. "Hold fast" to this pledge. {7BC 959.8}

We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God. -- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {7ABC 442.5}

The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin. --Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Those who proclaim the third angel's message must put on the whole armor of God, that they may stand boldly at their post, in the face of detraction and falsehood, fighting the good fight of faith, resisting the enemy with the word, "It is written." Keep yourselves where the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God's believing ones. The man who takes God as his trust is barricaded by an impregnable wall. -- The Southern Watchman, Feb. 23, 1904, p. 122. {7ABC 442.2}

Here is a well-documented rebuttal of the anti-Trinitarian wing of the lunatic fringe, which do not acknowledge the Third Person of the Godhead: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/TheTrinity.pdf

Eugene

1. Where is it written in scripture "God the Holy Spirit" or for that matter "God the Son"?
I'm not requesting scripture that elude to a hypothesis that can be left to interpretation but my request is a simple request for a plain it is written.
2. Where is it written in scripture that the apostles taught the trinity doctrine. Again a plain it is written is requested.
3. Where is it plainly written that the Holy Spirit of God is a 3rd separate being as God the Father of Jesus and Jesus the son of God are? Again please refrain from hypothesis and verses that do not plainly state so. A clear it is written.
4.Finally, did not Jesus state that He is the way and the truth and the life; that no one comes to the Father if not by Him (Jesus)? So will you please provide me with a plain it is written from scripture which clearly states Jesus's declaration has been replaced by a 3rd person called God the Holy Spirit?

Thank you
Bree

Hi Bree,

I believe that you know the answer to your questions.

The expressions "God the Holy Spirit" and "God the Son" do not appear in Scripture. And there is no instance in the New Testament where the trinity doctrine is explicitly taught. Likewise, there is no mention in Scripture about a 3rd person called God the Holy Spirit. And there is no line in the New Testament similar to the sentence you specified: “the Holy Spirit of God is a 3rd separate being as God the Father of Jesus and Jesus the son of God are.”

For the four questions that I answered for you, will you answer three of my questions?

1. What do you have to say about the Sadducees of Christ’s day not believing in a resurrection because that doctrine wasn’t explicitly taught in the books of Moses?

2. What do you have to say about Christ’s refutation of the Sadducees’ doctrine requiring clear spiritual discernment and not a direct “there will be a resurrection” quote?

3. What do your questions have to do with my critique of Restitution Ministries' theology?

Eugene

Thank you for your honesty in stating the fact that neither the trinity nor God the Holy Spirit and God the Son exist in the Bible.
Nor are they in any way taught as part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Since its not my desire to enter into exhausting debates on the subject I will try and answer your 3 questions you posted to me .


What do you have to say about the Sadducees of Christ’s day not believing in a resurrection because that doctrine wasn’t explicitly taught in the books of Moses?
Answer: 1 Cor. 15 Paul explains it well.

2. What do you have to say about Christ’s refutation of the Sadducees’ doctrine requiring clear spiritual discernment and not a direct “there will be a resurrection” quote?
Answer:
Spiritually discern the following words of Christ concerning His unity with His God and Father and His church. I believe everyone could really benefit from a study of John 17 it explains Jesus' relationship with His Father (God) and what he meant by my Father and I are one and also His relationship with us and what our relationship should be with one another in Christ.

Jesus prayed to His Father (God)
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11
20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:20-23

3. What does this have to do with your critique of Restitution Ministries?
Answer: I believe its in context

Thank you
Bree

Now a question for you Eugene.
Why are you presenting a non Biblical doctrine as if part of the Gospel of Christ?
If we are to believe you and others who share your belief in the doctrine of the trinity then would that not make God; Jesus and the apostles liars? Are you asking that our salvation be joined to hypothesis; speculations; metaphorical teachings that result in confusion or as they say mystery?
No, as for me, I will believe the testimony of God and Christ. Jesus is the actual son of the Almighty God and it is their spirit that abides in our hearts.

Bree

Bree wrote:If we are to believe you and others who share your belief in the doctrine of the trinity then would that not make God; Jesus and the apostles liars?

Bree,

To me, the Trinity simply means the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They’re all mentioned together in Matthew 28:19, Matthew 3:13-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Ephesians 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2 and Revelation 1:4-5. So I respectfully ask you, please do not impute the willful confusion and misunderstanding of others to me. And please accept my apology if what I have written and compiled sounds like traditional Trinitarianism. I assure you that it is not.

Bree wrote: Are you asking that our salvation be joined to hypothesis; speculations; metaphorical teachings that result in confusion or as they say mystery?

Bree, I have never elevated my clear light on the Godhead anywhere near to the status of the gospel. My gospel says nothing about Trinitarianism. The caption that describes the Theological Controversy section of my forum says, "This forum is for instruction on subjects of lesser importance: The nature of the Godhead, the human nature of Christ, eschatological perfection, spiritual gifts, etc."

Eugene

Matthew 28:19 or any of the other verses you've sited do not teach trinity or 3 co-eternal persons. As you've already admitted God the Holy Spirit and God the Son are not found in the Bible nor are they part of the Gospel of Christ. To reach the conclusion that the fullness of the Godhead which Jesus Christ inherited from His Father (God) mentioned in Matthew 28:19 somehow explains 3 co-eternal persons equaling 1 God; a person must step out of the Word of God and misapply what Jesus commissioned His disciples to do in to support their own hypothesis. For surely the apostles who baptized in the name of Jesus Christ understood clearly what the Master commissioned them to do.

In Mark 16:15 which is the parallel verse to Matt 28:19 it is written "And he said unto them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." What is the Gospel of Christ? "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." John 3:16-21

All who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Almighty living God receives His spirit; His Holy Spirit because Holy is what He and His Father are. For is it written that God is Holy and God is Spirit. It is also written that the 2nd Adam(Jesus) became a quickening spirit. The Holy Spirit is God and Christ themselves; it is their life's breath; their character; their personal presence.
All who believe and keep His commandments are blessed to have both God and Christ abide with and in them. For it is written; "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 14:23 Also see Gal 4:6; Rom 8:9; 15-16 and 2 Cor 3:17
God is Spirit and we are to worship Him in the spirit. Anything outside of this is not Biblical. Man has interfered with the testimony of God's word and the testimony of the Gospel of Christ. What is plainly written has been twisted and manipulated into uncompressible distortions excused away as mystery.

Anyone who is willing to humble themselves and learn from Christ who imparts all wisdom through His spirit in us can and will know the true identity of God and His son Jesus Christ. This is a very serious and sobering issue that has and continues to cause many souls to be lost in confusion of man created theories. Let's not waste the time we have left in misrepresenting God and making Jesus Christ His son of non effect through the worship and exaltation of a 3 co eternal/trinity entity. The testimonies of God are greater than those of man.

"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Cor. 8:5-6

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isa 8:20


Thank you
Bree

Bree wrote:Matthew 28:19 or any of the other verses you've sited do not teach trinity or 3 co-eternal persons. … To reach the conclusion that the fullness of the Godhead which Jesus Christ inherited from His Father (God) mentioned in Matthew 28:19 somehow explains 3 co-eternal persons equaling 1 God; …

Bree,

I don’t believe that you understood anything I’ve said. What was my point in citing Matthew 28:19?

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

I count three somethings in that verse. Do you see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit listed there? What is so hard to understand about that verse and the other verses I cited fitting my very simple definition of the Trinity? I wrote: “To me, the Trinity simply means the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

This thread is not about refuting traditional Trinitarian doctrine. It’s already a certainty that traditional Trinitarianism contains unprovable conjectures. And there is no question that Restitution Ministries' theology contains grievous errors. For the second time I’m asking you to not impute to me what I don’t believe.

Eugene
You’ve asked concerning my response to your post on Matt 28:19 and other verses.

“I count three somethings in that verse.

Eugene I humbly disagree and must point out that who you see are not “somethings” but who you see is God our Father, Jesus Christ His begotten son, and their Holy Spirit.

“What is so hard to understand about that verse and the other verses I cited fitting my very simple definition of the Trinity?” I wrote: “To me, the Trinity simply means the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

Eugene you’ve admitted in previous posts that the trinity, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not found in the Bible nor is it part of the Gospel of Christ. In other words all 3 are unbiblical. In addition I must point out that any hypothesis that makes God into 3 co-eternal persons called God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is also unbiblical. Which I believe is what you mean by non traditional trinitarism. So, it amazes me that you would site Matt 28:19 and the other verses as proof text of “somethings” that uphold your version of a trinitarian or triune god. Nothing of the sort is being taught in these verses. To insist on teaching, debating this just because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together representing such verses out of context as if somehow they validate a teaching of any version of trinitarian(ism) or triun(ism) or any other ism; is deceptive and is contrary to the Word of God. These teachings are mere human additions, speculations and unfounded hypothesis. The Bible is clear. There is only one Almighty God and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Mentioned in Matt 28:19 are the Father who is the one true Almighty God and the literal Father of Jesus Christ.
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the literal only begotten son of the LORD God Almighty who was sent into the world in the full authority of His Father’s name to reconcile the world to His God and Father and our God and Father.
Finally mentioned is the Holy Spirit which is the gift imparted to all those who believe and keep the faith of Jesus Christ. The gift of the Holy Spirit received in us communes with us; their Spirit with our own spirit. For God is spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in the spirit. It is the omnipresence of both God Almighty and Jesus Christ in the spirit that we have communion with. This is the gift. We are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ who encompasses the fullness of the authority in heaven. We die to the flesh and are alive again in the spirit through Jesus Christ. This is why there is NOT one instance of anyone in the Bible being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Every Biblical baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your time.
Bree

Bree wrote: it amazes me that you would site Matt 28:19 and the other verses as proof text of “somethings” that uphold your version of a trinitarian or triune god.

Bree,

I respectfully asked you twice already to not impute to me the willful confusion and misunderstanding of others. And you've done it yet again. What would be the point of me continuing this conversation with you if I must continually deny your false accusations of what I supposedly teach? I don't believe in a triune God. For the record, I will answer the statements you've made but I want to make it clear that communicating with you is very painful for me and that I strongly believe that allowing this discussion to continue wouldn't be of help to anyone. You said enough. I believe that you're hypnotized.

Since our theological differences are obviously irreconcilable and since you keep demonstrating that you are incapable of representing me fairly in an honest discussion, then I must ask you to please not waste your time in posting anything else on this forum to advance what I feel is a hypnotic delusion. It will be promptly deleted.

Bree wrote:The Bible is clear. There is only one Almighty God and one Lord Jesus Christ.

I’m surprised to hear that you never read and that no one has ever pointed out to you that the Holy Spirit is another Comforter.

John 15
26 But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 14
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

25 These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

It is written in John 20:21-23

21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
22 And when He had said this, He (Jesus) breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

It is the spirit of Christ; His life's breath, His personal being; His power that the disciples received.
This is why the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 14: 15-17 " If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you".

Who came into the world to save the world but the world did not receive or know Him? Jesus Christ the begotten son of God; that's who.

Who dwelt with the disciples and was received and recognized (known) by them as the begotten son of God? Jesus Christ the begotten son of God; that's who.

It is written in 1Peter 1:3-11
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,… so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

It is written in Philippians 1:18-20

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

It is written Rom 8:10-11

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Eugene according to the Word of God the Holy Spirit is the spirit of both God and Christ His son; there is no other.

There is one God who is our Father and the Father of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and His (God's) only begotten son.
There is one spirit; the spirit of truth which is imparted to us from God our Father through His son Jesus Christ.
There is one baptism; dying to the flesh (sin) and being raised to life again in the spirit through Jesus Christ our Lord.

May the Lord open your eyes to the truth by removing the veil from your eyes. For it is His hope that all who believe in Him be saved. God bless and keep you.

Bree